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Re: [John_Lit] "dokeo" and "pisteuo"

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  • Yuri Kuchinsky
    ... Paul, I take it that your question is in regard to the possible lateness of Tomb Burial stories. Lk 23:43 is often cited in this regard. There are also
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 12, 2001
      On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Paul Schmehl wrote:

      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Yuri Kuchinsky" <yuku@...>
      > To: "John Lit-L" <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:04 PM
      > Subject: [John_Lit] "dokeo" and "pisteuo" (was: Beloved Disciple passages in
      > ms Pepys
      > >
      > > Well, actually, I don't think this is relevant at all in the present
      > > context. While indeed I hold that the earliest stratum of primitive
      > > Christianity accepted a purely spiritual resurrection, at the same time, I
      > > don't think that this incident with the Empty Tomb could have belonged to
      > > the earliest gospel stratum. This is because, in general, I believe that
      > > all Tomb Burial stories belong to a secondary stratum of gospel
      > > composition.
      >
      > This is an unusual viewpoint I've not heard or read before. Is it
      > based on any primary evidence?

      Paul,

      I take it that your question is in regard to the possible lateness of Tomb
      Burial stories. Lk 23:43 is often cited in this regard. There are also
      passages in various extra-canonical writings indicating that Jesus did not
      have a Tomb Burial.

      Best,

      Yuri.

      Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

      Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
      it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
    • Paul Schmehl
      ... From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] dokeo
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 12, 2001
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Yuri Kuchinsky" <yuku@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] "dokeo" and "pisteuo"


        >
        > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Paul Schmehl wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > This is an unusual viewpoint I've not heard or read before. Is it
        > > based on any primary evidence?
        >
        > Paul,
        >
        > I take it that your question is in regard to the possible lateness of Tomb
        > Burial stories. Lk 23:43 is often cited in this regard. There are also
        > passages in various extra-canonical writings indicating that Jesus did not
        > have a Tomb Burial.
        >
        Ah! I would contend that that opinion is based on a misinterpretation of
        Luke 23:43. I'm not familiar with the extra-canonical writings that
        indicate this.

        Paul Schmehl pauls@...
        p.l.schmehl@...
        http://www.utdallas.edu/~pauls/
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Yuri, Just some quick points and questions -- and a lot of snipping [my previous remarks will have double angles ( ), and yours will have single angles ( )].
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 12, 2001
          Yuri,

          Just some quick points and questions -- and a lot of
          snipping [my previous remarks will have double angles
          (> >), and yours will have single angles (>)]. I
          wrote:

          > > It would nevertheless mean that their conclusion
          > > was wrong and that Mary Magdalene was wrong

          To which, you responded:

          > I don't see it this way.

          Why not? You agree that even the Pepys text
          presupposed the bodily resurrection. If Mary Magdalene
          thought that the body had been taken away, and if the
          beloved disciple also concluded this, then in the
          context of the Johannine presupposition of a bodily
          resurrection, this conclusion was wrong.

          > But the fact that Zacharias uses "credidit" goes
          > contrary to your opinion.

          You'll have to explain why. Perhaps this is your
          explanation:

          > It seems that Zacharias thought that the word
          > credidit/pisteuo was appropriate in the context in
          > which it's used in the passage he quoted. I agree
          > with Zacharias.

          Assuming that Zacharias thought about this point and
          that you're correct about what he thought, why do you
          agree with him?

          > > You seem to be accepting that "pisteuo" was the
          > > original term.
          >
          > Yes.
          >
          > > If so, then it would most likely have meant an
          > > important theological belief on the part of the
          > > beloved disciple.
          >
          > But this is only a guess on your part.

          I wouldn't call it a "guess"; I'd call it a
          tentatively stated conclusion based upon the Johannine
          linguistic evidence as I see it. Since you have agreed
          that there is an important difference between the use
          of "pisteuo" and "dokeo" in John, you need to explain
          why this important distinction does not hold here.

          > If you think that the Pepys and Zacharias documents
          > both reflect later editing, when do you think this
          > was done? And also, in your view, was it done
          > independently by both writers?

          I don't know the answer to either question, but my
          ignorance on these two points is not relevant to the
          questions that I have raised about the use of
          "pisteuo" if the Pepys manuscript reflects the
          original version of John's Gospel.

          Best Regards,

          Jeffery Hodges

          =====
          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
          447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
          Yangsandong 411
          South Korea

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        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          ... Because his conclusion was right in light of what he knew and saw. As to Mary Magdalene, it s not relevant in this case if she was right or wrong. ...
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 16, 2001
            On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

            > > > It would nevertheless mean that their conclusion
            > > > was wrong and that Mary Magdalene was wrong
            >
            > To which, you responded:
            >
            > > I don't see it this way.
            >
            > Why not?

            Because his conclusion was right in light of what he knew and saw. As to
            Mary Magdalene, it's not relevant in this case if she was right or wrong.

            > > But the fact that Zacharias uses "credidit" goes
            > > contrary to your opinion.
            >
            > You'll have to explain why. Perhaps this is your
            > explanation:
            >
            > > It seems that Zacharias thought that the word
            > > credidit/pisteuo was appropriate in the context in
            > > which it's used in the passage he quoted. I agree
            > > with Zacharias.
            >
            > Assuming that Zacharias thought about this point and
            > that you're correct about what he thought, why do you
            > agree with him?

            Because he probably knew Latin better than I.

            > > If you think that the Pepys and Zacharias documents
            > > both reflect later editing, when do you think this
            > > was done? And also, in your view, was it done
            > > independently by both writers?
            >
            > I don't know the answer to either question

            So then how do you know it was later editing if you don't know how and
            when it was done?

            Basically, Jeffery, you seem to be arguing that one word rather than
            another is more appropriate in the context of a certain verse. But surely
            this is a matter of opinion. I think we can agree to disagree about this,
            and I'm willing to let you have the last word on this subject.

            Best,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Yuri, ... In the strictest sense of the term, I don t know because I haven t studied the issue. I was, primarily, raising questions that you would need to
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 16, 2001
              Yuri,

              You asked:

              > So then how do you know it was later editing if you
              > don't know how and when it was done?

              In the strictest sense of the term, I don't know
              because I haven't studied the issue. I was, primarily,
              raising questions that you would need to investigate
              and answer in order to tighten your arguments. This is
              how I see the purpose of scholarly listserves such as
              this one, and it's why I have tried to participate in
              discussions whenever I felt that I had something to
              say or a question to raise.

              > Basically, Jeffery, you seem to be arguing that one
              > word rather than another is more appropriate in the
              > context of a certain verse.

              That's correct.

              > But surely this is a matter of opinion.

              Some opinions are better grounded than others. I have
              given my grounds, and those grounds would need to be
              evaluated.

              > I think we can agree to disagree about this, and I'm
              > willing to let you have the last word on this
              > subject.

              I rarely have that honor.

              Best Regards,

              Jeffery Hodges

              =====
              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
              447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
              Yangsandong 411
              South Korea

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