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Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple passages in ms Pepys

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  • John N. Lupia
    ... typical during ... normally ... personage as ... Yuri, the Book of Job, written between 600-450 BC evidences the Palestinian custom of female doorkeepers.
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 6, 2001
      --- In johannine_literature@y..., Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@t...> wrote:
      >
      > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
      >
      > > Yuri, the woman doorkeeper mentioned in John 18,16 was
      typical during
      > > this period
      >
      > John, I wonder what is the basis for your view that a girl would
      normally
      > be given the job of guarding the doors of such an important
      personage as
      > Caiaphas.
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > Yuri.
      >
      > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

      Yuri, the Book of Job, written between 600-450 BC evidences the
      Palestinian custom of female doorkeepers. For example,
      Samuel L. Terrien, Job.(Neuchatel, Editions Delachaux &
      Niestle,1963) dates it to 575 BC
      If Terrien's dating is correct then female doorkeepers in Israel
      had a history for at least 600 years from the Book of Job to St.
      John's Gospel where he mentions a female doorkeeper.


      Job 2, 7 The Evil One, having failed in this, went away and took
      upon his shoulder an old, torn basket and went in and spoke to
      the doorkeeper saying: "Tell Job : Give me bread from thine
      hands that I may eat". 8 And when I heard this, I gave her burnt
      bread to give it to him, and I made known to him : "Expect not to
      eat of my bread, for it is forbidden to thee". 9 But the door-keeper,
      being ashamed to hand him the burnt and ashy bread, as she
      did not know that it was Satan, took of her own fine bread and
      gave it to him. 10 But he took it and, knowing what occured, said
      to the maiden : "Go hence, bad servant, and bring me the bread
      that was given thee to hand to me". "

      As I mentioned in an earlier posting the "janitrix" or "ancilla" was
      a female doorkeeper typical of the period. I also provided the
      Senatusconsultum regarding the manumission of ancillae. So,
      John 18,17 PAIDISKH H QURWROS "the doorkeeper maiden" is
      reminiscent of Job 2,10. This ancilla or charwoman was a well
      known class of female slaves as I have already said.

      Westerman (1955) says, " The customary term for an adult
      female slave was "ancilla". (cf,. William L. Westerman, The Slave
      Systems of Greek and Roman Antiuity, (Philadelphia, 1955) 58,
      see also footnote 21: W. W. Buckland, Roman Law of Slavery
      (Cambridge, 1908) 8

      Cordially,
      John

      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, NJ 07208-1731
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... John, Actually, this is more commonly known as the Testament of Job. Bankole Davies-Browne argues that it is a Christian work, Testament of Job
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 12, 2001
        On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote:
        > --- In johannine_literature@y..., Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@t...> wrote:
        > >
        > > On Mon, 30 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:

        > > > Yuri, the woman doorkeeper mentioned in John 18,16 was typical
        > during > > this period

        > > John, I wonder what is the basis for your view that a girl would
        > normally > be given the job of guarding the doors of such an important
        > personage as > Caiaphas.

        > Yuri, the Book of Job, written between 600-450 BC evidences the
        > Palestinian custom of female doorkeepers. For example, Samuel L.
        > Terrien, Job.(Neuchatel, Editions Delachaux & Niestle,1963) dates it
        > to 575 BC If Terrien's dating is correct then female doorkeepers in
        > Israel had a history for at least 600 years from the Book of Job to
        > St. John's Gospel where he mentions a female doorkeeper.

        John,

        Actually, this is more commonly known as the Testament of Job. Bankole
        Davies-Browne argues that it is a Christian work,

        Testament of Job
        http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/tjob.html

        > Job 2, 7 The Evil One, having failed in this, went away and took
        > upon his shoulder an old, torn basket and went in and spoke to
        > the doorkeeper saying: "Tell Job : Give me bread from thine
        > hands that I may eat". 8 And when I heard this, I gave her burnt
        > bread to give it to him, and I made known to him : "Expect not to
        > eat of my bread, for it is forbidden to thee". 9 But the door-keeper,
        > being ashamed to hand him the burnt and ashy bread, as she
        > did not know that it was Satan, took of her own fine bread and
        > gave it to him. 10 But he took it and, knowing what occured, said
        > to the maiden : "Go hence, bad servant, and bring me the bread
        > that was given thee to hand to me". "

        There are a number of questions about this passage, and about this whole
        text more generally and its dating. For example, one may suppose that the
        detail about replacing inedible bread with good bread would presuppose a
        female servant doing it. So then the female doorkeeper would be more or
        less required by the logic of this story.

        Again, Job of the story seems to be just a regular middle-class citizen,
        so it would not be surprising that a female servant has the job of opening
        the door in his household.

        Best,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

        Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
        it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
      • John N. Lupia
        Yuri, first you say there were no women doorkeepers, only burly men who acted as security guards, a notion supported by no Hellenistic scholar I know. I think
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 12, 2001
          Yuri, first you say there were no women doorkeepers, only burly
          men who acted as security guards, a notion supported by no
          Hellenistic scholar I know. I think they would laugh. Moreover,
          you never even ask yourself why is there a Latin word janitrix?
          Nor do you pursue this venue which can certainly lead you to
          antique Latin authors who use the term. Then in this last
          posting you say a woman is appropriate as a doorkeeper for
          Job. This roller-coaster ride evidences a complete lack of
          cognizance about these issues and it only turns off scholars in
          the know.

          Then in order to summarily dismiss out of hand the evidence in
          Job you give an extremely imbalanced argument citing Bankole
          Davies-Browne, a PhD student from Sierre-Leone at St.
          Andrews, Scotland, who is studying under the American Dr.
          James R. Davila. You cite a URL which gives the impression
          that this is as much as you know on the subject (an internet
          university student) a view reinforced by the fact that you never
          mentioned M. R. James who was a staunch advocate of the view
          that Job was written in the 2nd or 3rd century. However, the most
          important scholar in the first half of the last century on Job was
          the Eli, C. C. Torrey who was the foremost authority on LXX
          apocrypha. Cf. Charles Cutler Torrey, The Apocryphal Literature.
          A Brief Introduction, (New Haven: Yale, 1945) 140-145.

          Moreover, it is rather audacious to discard Job saying it is a
          Christian work without having undertaken serious research and
          then go on to defend the Pepys Ms. a late medieval work! No
          biblical scholar I know would even give it a second thought.
          When Rev. Jack Kilgallen, SJ, the New Testament editor of
          Biblica and professor of the Pontifical Biblical Institute, Rome
          gets out of the Loyal University Jesuit Community's Infirmiry in
          Chicago and returns to Rome slated September 30th I suggest
          you write to him and ask his opinion.

          http://www.bsw.org/index?l=71

          Don't be too disappointed as I know you will be since I can see
          you have devoted much time to this project.

          I for one think it is time to bring this thread to an end since you
          summarily dismiss any suggestion without serious erudition.


          Cordially,
          John

          John N. Lupia
          501 North Avenue B-1
          Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
          jlupia2@...
        • John N. Lupia
          To Yuri Kuchinsky: A further question regarding your posting at Johannine_Literature archive no. 1890 In your defense of Pepys Ms. 2498 where you discard the
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 16, 2001
            To Yuri Kuchinsky:

            A further question regarding your posting at
            Johannine_Literature archive no. 1890

            In your defense of Pepys Ms. 2498 where you discard the
            doorkeeper in Job saying it is a Christian writing, dating it to the
            3rd cent. AD, I am curious how you (and Mr. Davies-Brown for
            that matter) explain and account for the Targums of the Book of
            Job among the Dead Sea Scrolls:

            1 lQlO; 4QtgJob=4Q157, 11QtgJob=11Q10; 11QtgJob XXIV 6-7

            (cf. Ernst Kutsch, "Die Textgliederung im hebräischen Ijobbuch
            sowie in 4QTgJob und in 11QTgJob," BZ ns 27 No
            2(1983):221-228).


            Cordially in Christ,
            John

            John N. Lupia
            501 North Avenue B-1
            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
            JLupia2@...
            <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>

            "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium
            approaches . . . unity among all Christians of the various
            confessions will increase until they reach full communion." John
            Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16
          • Yuri Kuchinsky
            ... Dear John, Earlier you confused the Book of Job with the Testament of Job. Such confusion may also explain the above. Also (in regard to your previous
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 16, 2001
              On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote:

              > In your defense of Pepys Ms. 2498 where you discard the
              > doorkeeper in Job saying it is a Christian writing, dating it to the
              > 3rd cent. AD, I am curious how you (and Mr. Davies-Brown for
              > that matter) explain and account for the Targums of the Book of
              > Job among the Dead Sea Scrolls:
              >
              > 1 lQlO; 4QtgJob=4Q157, 11QtgJob=11Q10; 11QtgJob XXIV 6-7
              >
              > (cf. Ernst Kutsch, "Die Textgliederung im hebräischen Ijobbuch
              > sowie in 4QTgJob und in 11QTgJob," BZ ns 27 No
              > 2(1983):221-228).

              Dear John,

              Earlier you confused the Book of Job with the Testament of Job. Such
              confusion may also explain the above. Also (in regard to your previous
              post) I don't think the fact that Davies-Browne is from Sierra-Leone
              should reflect negatively on what this scholar is saying.

              Regards,

              Yuri.

              Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

              It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
              to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
            • John N. Lupia
              Yuri, my posting in the archive no. 1880 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/18 80 refers to the Book of Job as the reference cited.
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 16, 2001
                Yuri, my posting in the archive no. 1880

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/18
                80

                refers to the Book of Job as the reference cited.

                Your posting archive 1890

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/18
                90

                Corrects me inappropriately saying that it "is more commonly
                known as the Testament of Job"

                Now you claim in archive 1896

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/18
                96

                "Earlier you confused the Book of Job with the Testament of Job.
                "

                So, Yuri, after being shown apodictly that you have no credibility
                in academic circles whatsoever you have the hutzpah try to
                inappropriately accuse me of bigotry because I mentioned Mr.
                Davies-Browne is from Sierre-Leone? In that same posting
                (archive no. 1880) I also mentined St. Andrews is in Scotland
                and that Dr. Davila is an American. Any critical reader can see
                that I in no way ever insinuated to discredit Mr. Davies-Browne
                because of his place of origin. I was merely showing that I knew
                exactly who you were referring to and where he was studying,
                and that I know Dr. Davila having corresponded with him on his
                former Qumran-List. So, now getting back to your claim that Job
                is c. 300 AD how do you explain the DDS texts in my posting
                archive no. 1885

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/18
                95

                Cordially,
                John
              • RSBrenchley@aol.com
                ... The DSS texts are clearly closely related to canonical Job. The text you cited is not in the book; Job 2:7 (you cite 2,7, which doesn t look like a
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 17, 2001
                  John Lupia writes:

                  > So, now getting back to your claim that Job
                  > is c. 300 AD how do you explain the DDS texts in my posting
                  > archive no. 1885

                  The DSS texts are clearly closely related to canonical Job. The text you
                  cited is not in the book; Job 2:7 (you cite 2,7, which doesn't look like a
                  canonical reference) says: 'So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD,
                  and inflicted loathesome sores on Job from the sole of his foot to the crown
                  of his head'. Nothing to do with female doorkeepers. I'm not familiar with
                  the Testament of Job (is it online anywhere?) but for the moment I'll take
                  Yuri's word for it. You're talking about different texts here.

                  Regards,

                  Robert Brenchley,
                  Birmingham, UK.

                  RSBrenchley@...
                • John N. Lupia
                  Robert Brenchley wrote: The DSS texts are clearly closely related to canonical Job. The text you cited is not in the book; Job 2:7 (you cite 2,7, which doesn t
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 17, 2001
                    Robert Brenchley wrote:

                    The DSS texts are clearly closely related to canonical Job. The
                    text you
                    cited is not in the book; Job 2:7 (you cite 2,7, which doesn't look
                    like a
                    canonical reference) says: 'So Satan went out from the presence
                    of the LORD,
                    and inflicted loathesome sores on Job from the sole of his foot
                    to the crown
                    of his head'. Nothing to do with female doorkeepers. I'm not
                    familiar with
                    the Testament of Job (is it online anywhere?) but for the moment
                    I'll take
                    Yuri's word for it. You're talking about different texts here.


                    Robert, in the first place read: H. Heater, A Septuagint translation
                    technique in the Book of Job (Catholic Biblical Quarterly
                    Monograph Series, 11; Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of
                    America Press, 1982); and Cecile Dogniez, Bibliographie de la
                    Septante: (1970-1993) (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum,
                    60; (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1995); and Emanuel Tov, The Greek and
                    Hebrew Bible : collected essays on the Septuagint (Leiden ;
                    Boston : Brill, 1999. BS 410 .V452).

                    Second, I cited Job 2,7b-10 which corresponds to "The
                    Prologue" (E) as proposed by the versification suggested by P.
                    W. Skehan, "Strophic Pattern in the Book of Job" CBQ 23
                    (1961):125-142. The Prologue is not considered a later addition
                    and the textual criticism of it reflects what Greenfield calls
                    "Standard Literary Aramaic" (700-200 BC) (cf. J. C. Greenfield,
                    "Aramaic and its Dialects," 34-36, in H. H. Paper, ed., Jewish
                    Languages: Themes and Variations (Cambridge, MA: Assoc. for
                    Jew. Stud., 1978):29-43).

                    Third, you said "which doesn't look like a canonical reference" to
                    a book you consider Apocryphal. Isn't this a contradiction of
                    terms?

                    Fourth, like Yuri you seem to think that the Book of Job and the
                    Testament of Job are two different texts completely. This is
                    false.

                    Fifth, when you say "I'm not familiar with the Testament of Job"
                    how can you give a professional academic opinion that goes
                    well beyond the text and has eruditely examined and reflected on
                    the survey of all scholarship regarding Job? Hence, I gave the
                    bibliographic references in Dogniez, and Tov for your
                    convenience. To render an opinion without any reading
                    whatsoever is hardly the material suitable for an academic
                    discussion. To say "I'll take Yuri's word for it." in this regard not
                    only deteriorates the academic discussion to the level of a chat
                    room but evidences a very uncritical measure on your part.

                    Sixth, following your line of logic only the few verses of P52 can
                    said to be canonical as of c. 100-125 AD and the remainder of
                    the text should/could be or must be later redactions, which some
                    have claimed using this very line of reasoning. However, this is
                    hardly a strong argument and it is overly cautious to the point of
                    using the argument from silence (that is, a lack of physical or
                    antique documentary evidence) as proof to justify a rather
                    tenuous and weak position. This argument ignores the principle
                    of text criticism that calls for critical examination of later texts
                    since they may have been based on earlier exemplars and
                    closer to the original than extant earlier ones that post date them.
                    So, your summarily dismissing the "Prologue" of Job out of hand
                    disregards critical lines of reasoning and the research that has
                    ensued. I realize that postings to lists are sometimes made in
                    haste off the cuff and my suspicion is this is true in your case.

                    Cordially,
                    John
                  • RSBrenchley@aol.com
                    ... To some extent, yes. I don t claim to be making any professional academic opinion, I merely checked the citation you gave, and found something rather
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 18, 2001
                      John Lupia writes:

                      > So, your summarily dismissing the "Prologue" of Job out of hand
                      > disregards critical lines of reasoning and the research that has
                      > ensued. I realize that postings to lists are sometimes made in
                      > haste off the cuff and my suspicion is this is true in your case.
                      >
                      > Cordially,
                      > John

                      To some extent, yes. I don't claim to be making any professional academic
                      opinion, I merely checked the citation you gave, and found something rather
                      different. I'm not dismissing the prologue to Job, I'm trying to find the
                      female doorkeeper, and failing. Looking at the references you give, is this
                      from the LXX? That would clear the matter up, as you didn't specify, so I'd
                      assumed you referred to Hebrew Job; the LXX would require a trip to the
                      library.

                      <<Job 2, 7 The Evil One, having failed in this, went away and took
                      upon his shoulder an old, torn basket and went in and spoke to
                      the doorkeeper saying: "Tell Job : Give me bread from thine
                      hands that I may eat". 8 And when I heard this, I gave her burnt
                      bread to give it to him, and I made known to him : "Expect not to
                      eat of my bread, for it is forbidden to thee". 9 But the door-keeper,
                      being ashamed to hand him the burnt and ashy bread, as she
                      did not know that it was Satan, took of her own fine bread and
                      gave it to him. 10 But he took it and, knowing what occured, said
                      to the maiden : "Go hence, bad servant, and bring me the bread
                      that was given thee to hand to me". ">>

                      Regards,

                      Robert Brenchley,
                      Birmingham, UK.

                      RSBrenchley@...
                    • John N. Lupia
                      Yuri, to settle the issue with closure and bring an end to this discussion (archive nos. 1866, 1873, 1880) of women doorkeepers which is a widely known
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 18, 2001
                        Yuri, to settle the issue with "closure" and bring an end to this
                        discussion (archive nos. 1866, 1873, 1880) of women
                        doorkeepers which is a widely known phenomenon among
                        biblical researchers for two centuries which any survey of the
                        literature will show and which is pellucidly evident in Exodus
                        38,8 I give the following:

                        cf. Adam Clarke's Commentary (Abingdon-Cokesbury, n.d.):1
                        "Exodus, Chapter 38" (6 paragraphs)

                        "Of the women-which assembled at the door] What the
                        employment of these women was at the door of the tabernacle,
                        is not easily known. Some think they assembled there for
                        purposes of devotion. Others, that they kept watch there during
                        the night; and this is the most probable opinion, for they appear
                        to have been in the same employment as those who assembled
                        at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in the days of
                        Samuel, who were abused by the sons of the high priest Eli, 1
                        Sam. ii. 22.

                        Among the ancients women were generally employed in the
                        office of porters or doorkeepers. Such were employed about the
                        house of the high priest in our Lord's time; for a woman is
                        actually represented as keeping the door of the palace of the
                        high priest, John xviii. 17: Then saith the DAMSEL that KEPT THE
                        DOOR unto Peter; see also Matt. xxvi. 69. In 2 Sam. iv. 6, both the
                        Septuagint and Vulgate make a woman porter or doorkeeper to
                        Ishbosheth. Aristophanes mentions them in the same office,
                        and calls them shkiv, Sekis, which seems to signify a common
                        maid-servant. Aristoph, in Vespis, ver. 7lxviii. - Æoti thn quran
                        anewxen h shkiv laqra.

                        Homer, Odyss., y, ver. 225-229, mentions Actoris, Penelope's
                        maid, whose office it was to keep the door of her chamber:-
                        aktoriv - h nwin eiruto qurav pukinou qalamoio.

                        And Euripides, in Troad., ver. 197, brings in Hecuba,
                        complaining that she who was wont to sit upon a throne is now
                        reduced to the miserable necessity of becoming a doorkeeper or
                        a nurse, in order to get a morsel of bread. - h tan para proquroiv
                        fulakan katecousa, h paidwn qrepteira.

                        Sir John Chardin observes, that women are employed to keep
                        the gate of the palace of the Persian kings. Plautus, Curcul., act
                        1., scene 1, mentions an old woman, who was keeper of the
                        gate.

                        Anus hic solet cubitare, custos janitrix.

                        Many other examples might be produced. It is therefore very likely
                        that the persons mentioned here, and in 1 Sam. ii. 22, were the
                        women who guarded the tabernacle; and that they regularly
                        relieved each other, a troop or company regularly keeping watch:
                        and indeed this seems to be implied in the original, wabx
                        tsabeu, they came by troops; and these troops successively
                        consecrated their mirrors to the service of the tabernacle. See
                        Calmet on John xviii. 16. "

                        See also BAGD "PAIDISKH" 604 where the term is shown as
                        one known to "always" signify the female servant class
                        illustrated by citations.

                        Moreover, P59 and P66 both attest to the woman doorkeeper.
                        (cf. W. J. Elliott and David C. Parker, eds., The Gospel According
                        to St. John. The New Testament in Greek IV, Volume 1.
                        (American & British Committe IGNTP; Leiden, 1995): 377. See
                        also Comfort & Barret who date P66 (P. Bodmer II + Inv. Nr.
                        4274/4298) c. AD 150. (cf. Philip W. Comfort and David P. Barrett,
                        The Text of the Earliest Greek New Testament Manuscripts
                        (Tyndale, 2001):376.

                        The servant-girl motif is also cited in Luke 22,56 and Matthew
                        26,69 while Mark 14,66 calls them TWN PAIDISKWN TOU
                        ARCIEREWS "the maids of the high priest." the earliest
                        witnesses are the early fourth cent. uncials 01and 03, except
                        Luke which has its earliest in 0171 dated to the late 3rd cent. or
                        beginning of the fourth c. 300 (cf. Philip W. Comfort and David P.
                        Barrett, The Text of the Earliest Greek New Testament
                        Manuscripts (Tyndale, 2001):685)..

                        Cordially,
                        John

                        John N. Lupia
                        501 North Avenue B-1
                        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                      • Yuri Kuchinsky
                        On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote: ... I would like to bring it to the attention of the moderators of johannine_literature-l that such use of ad hominem
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 18, 2001
                          On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote:

                          ...

                          > So, Yuri, after being shown apodictly that you have no credibility in
                          > academic circles whatsoever ...

                          I would like to bring it to the attention of the moderators of
                          johannine_literature-l that such use of ad hominem comments by Mr. John N.
                          Lupia violates the protocols of the list.

                          I do hope that basic rules of scholarly discourse will be followed by all
                          posters.

                          Respectfully,

                          Yuri.

                          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
                        • Yuri Kuchinsky
                          On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote: ... John, please cite us any passage in the standard canonical Book of Job that has anything to do with any female
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 18, 2001
                            On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, John N. Lupia wrote:

                            ...

                            > Fourth, like Yuri you seem to think that the Book of Job and the
                            > Testament of Job are two different texts completely. This is
                            > false.

                            John, please cite us any passage in the standard canonical Book of Job
                            that has anything to do with any female doorkeepers. You have cited a
                            passage from an Apocryphal Testament of Job, which is not the same as the
                            canonical Book of Job. As most of us know, the Catholic canon had been
                            already fixed authoritatively quite a few centuries ago. Of course I
                            respect your views and all that, but to my mind the Council of Trent
                            (1556) has more authority on this matter.

                            Respectfully,

                            Yuri.

                            PS. And in reply to the query by Robert Brenchley, yes, indeed, the
                            Testament of Job is available online at the following address,

                            http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/test-job.htm

                            Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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