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[John_Lit] Re: anarthrous "spirit and ..."

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/13/1999 11:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nar.hanscamp@clear.net.nz writes:
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 14, 1999
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      In a message dated 7/13/1999 11:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      nar.hanscamp@... writes:

      << Hendiadys or not, *what is it?* still confuses. Here are three examples
      of anarthrous uses of PNEUMA in the FG linked with other nouns, and dependent
      together on a single preposition. Anyone care to comment?

      3.5 "born of water and spirit"
      GENNHQH EX hUDATOS KAI PNEUMATOS

      4.23,"worship in spirit and truth"
      PROSKUNHSOUSIN EN PNEUMATI KAI ALHQEIA

      4.24 EN PNEUMATI KAI ALHQEIA DEI PROSKUNEIN
      >>

      The fact that the term pneuma is anarthrous in the above citations is not
      particularly significant, because it is quite idiomatic in Hellenistic Greek
      to not have an article with a noun in a prepositional phrase. De la Potterie,
      in La Verite dans Saint Jean (Rome 1977), discusses the "spirit and truth"
      texts at length, but I don't remember at the moment what he says about them.
      He has also suggested elsewhere that "water", in the first text, is probably
      an addition belonging to a late stage of the development of the text (he says
      this independently of Bultman's theory of the sacramental redactor, etc.).

      Leonard Maluf

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    • N & RJ Hanscamp
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      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 14, 1999
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        >The fact that the term pneuma is anarthrous in the above citations is not
        >particularly significant, because it is quite idiomatic in Hellenistic
        Greek
        >to not have an article with a noun in a prepositional phrase. De la
        Potterie,
        >in La Verite dans Saint Jean (Rome 1977), discusses the "spirit and truth"
        >texts at length, but I don't remember at the moment what he says about
        them.
        >He has also suggested elsewhere that "water", in the first text, is
        probably
        >an addition belonging to a late stage of the development of the text (he
        says
        >this independently of Bultman's theory of the sacramental redactor, etc.).


        Thank you

        I have yet to see any textual evidence for any addition of hUDATOS to the
        text.
        Nigel

        Nigel and Rebecca Hanscamp
        Trinity Methodist Theological College
        Auckland Consortium of Theological Education, New Zealand
        Email: nar.hanscamp@...


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      • Thatcher, Tom
        Dear Nigel,Not sure if this is what you re after, but in re John 4:23-24 I would compare 1 JOhn 3:18 where John says that true Christians love in deed and
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 19, 1999
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          Dear Nigel,

          Not sure if this is what you're after, but in re John 4:23-24 I would
          compare 1 JOhn 3:18 where John says that true Christians love "in deed and
          truth." I would argue that "truth" in that context is doctrinal orthodoxy
          (contra the AntiChrists), while "deed" is the actions which accompany
          correct belief. Same in John 4, where I would see that worship "in spirit
          and in truth" means worship done by those with a correct Christology in a
          spiritual way. I guess I would say then that both of those examples are
          "dative of manner." But John 3:3-5 makes "water and spirit" synonymous with
          anothen ("again/above"), so that the dative must be instrumental dative, the
          means by which "birth from above" is achieved. I would see, in other words,
          two different uses of the dative in the verses you cite. Does that sound
          reasonable?

          Respectfully,
          --tom

          "The Truth Will Set You Free"
          Tom Thatcher
          CBC&S
          (513) 244-8172



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