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Re: [John_Lit] Last Supper

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  • John Lupia
    To: James McGrath Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature: Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 8 8:42 AM
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      To: "James McGrath"
      Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature:

      Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
      writings of the Mishnaic & Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Pesahim, and the Gospel
      of John itself.


      Passover Eve

      Before the common meal on Passover eve, the day was filled with preperation
      for the even. A full contingent of priests -- twenty-four divisions instead
      of the usual one--came early to the Temple. Their first task was the
      burning of the hametz, "leven," which had been searched for by candlelight
      in each home the night before and then removed for burning the next morning
      (Mishnah, Pesahim 1-3). By midday all work stopped. The afternoon was set
      aside for the slaughtering of the lamb. The offering of the passover
      sacrifice at the Temple began about 3:00pm. (Pesahim 5:1) and was conducted
      in three massive shifts. When the temple courts was filled with the first
      group of offerers, the gates of the court were closed. The rams horn was
      sounded and the sacrifice began (Pesahim5:5). Each Jew slaughtered his own
      lamb. The priests stood in two rows, one holding a gold basins and the
      other silver. After the blood was drained into the basin, it was tossed
      against the base of the altar (Pesahim 5:6). While the offerings were going
      on, the Levites sang the Hallel (Pss 113-118). Each lamb was then skinned
      and its fat with kidneys removerd for burning on the alter (Pesahim 5:9-10;
      cf. Lev 3:3-5). Before leaving the temple each offerer slung his lamb --
      wrapped in its own hide over his shoulder (Babylonian Talmud, Peshahim 65b).
      He then departed with his company to prepare the passover meal.
      Immediately, the next division of offerers filed into the Temple court and
      the ritual was repeated. (cf. also Pesahim 66a & Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim
      6:1)


      Mishnah (Pesahim 4:1) "it is a positive commandment for each Jew to drink
      four cups of wine on Passover eve, and even the poorest Jew must not receive
      less than four cups of wine." Number four, four cups, have special
      significance, given in many variations: four cups of wine, four questions,
      four sons, four special symbolic foods to be eaten - the paschal sacrifice,
      the matza, the bitter herb and the haroset.

      For additional bibliographic references see:

      Wolf Heidenheim, Passover Eve (Roedelheim, 1822-23)

      Harold Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ,” Zondervan,
      1977).

      Rylands Hebrew MS 6 (Catalonian c. 1350) A Haggadah, or service book used
      at the Seder on Passover eve.

      Baruch Bokser, Origins of the Seder, (Univ. of Calif. Press) [o.p.]

      E. Daniel Goldschmidt, The Passover Haggadah: Its Sources and History (Mosad
      Bialik: Jerusalem, 1977) & additional readings tba; primary rabbinic
      sources.

      Yosef Hayim, Haggadah and history : a panorama in facsimile of five
      centuries of the printed Haggadah from the collections of Harvard University
      and the Jewish Theological Seminary of America [Philadelphia : Jewish
      Publication Society of America, 1976].

      Joseph Tabory, "The Passover eve ceremony : an historical survey " Immanuel
      No 12 (Spr 1981), p. 32-43.

      S. Stein, "The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the
      Pesach Haggadah" JJS 8 (1957), pp. 13-44

      Lawrence Hoffman, "A Symbol of Salvation in the Passover Seder" Passover and
      Easter: The Symbolic Structuing of Sacred Seasons [Two Liturgical
      Traditions, vol. 6] Notre Dame, Ind. Notre Dame Unversity Press, 1999

      Jakob J. Petuchowski, "Do this in remembrance of me' (1 Cor 11:24)" Journal
      of Biblical Literature 76 (D 1957), p. 293-298.

      Baruch M Bokser, "Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder?" Bible Review 3,2
      (1987) 24-33.

      Giuseppe Ghiberti," Jesus’ Passover Meal "SIDIC XXX:1 [1997], 8 12.


      Cordially in Christ,
      John
      <><


      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      JLupia2@...
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      "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
      . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
      they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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    • James McGrath
      ... Actually, I think that the phrase in the bosom of is, like the old English word abreast , a way of saying next to , alongside . That certainly seems
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 8 10:30 AM
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        --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
        >
        Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
        is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
        saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
        be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
        occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
        papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
        Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
        the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
        say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
        the other person is lying across them, then the
        expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)

        James McGrath







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      • Ken Durkin
        From: James McGrath ... The closeness is emphasized and the disciple s head falls back while lying on the breast of Jesus to
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 8 12:47 PM
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          From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

          > --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
          > >
          > Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
          > is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
          > saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
          > be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
          > occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
          > papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
          > Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
          > the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
          > say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
          > the other person is lying across them, then the
          > expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)
          >
          > James McGrath

          The closeness is emphasized and the disciple's head falls back while lying
          on the breast of Jesus to look at him face to face and ask the question. The
          reader is aware of the meaning of "in the bosom" as an expression of
          intimacy between Father and Son from 1:18. Common sense says the expression
          "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A child lies in the bosom of
          its mother. The expression means intimacy and here, a close physical
          intimacy. The Douay and the Authorized are closest to my translation:

          (Douay 1609) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,
          whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him: Who is it of whom
          he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him,
          "Lord.

          (Authorized 1611) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples
          whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask
          who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto
          him, "Lord.

          This one misses the point entirely:
          (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was
          sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
          is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to Jesus side and asked,
          "Who is it Lord.
        • James McGrath
          ... Dear Ken, Common sense tells different things to different people, especially those speaking different languages and living in different cultural contexts.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 8 7:32 PM
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            --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Common sense says the expression
            > "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A
            > child lies in the bosom of its mother. The
            > expression means intimacy and here,
            > a close physical intimacy.
            >
            Dear Ken,

            Common sense tells different things to different
            people, especially those speaking different languages
            and living in different cultural contexts. The same
            common sense you are using in relation to what I take
            to be a Greek expression, might tell a modern German
            that an English speaker who mentions 'columns of
            soldiers five abreast' has in view 'the familial and
            perhaps almost sexual closeness that is an aspect of
            the rigours of military life together'. Of course,
            this person is reading more into the word 'abreast'
            than a native speaker would. There are plenty of
            words and expressions that we use as part of set
            phrases in which we are essentially unconscious of the
            word's meaning independent of that context. (What does
            a parkway have to do with parks or parking?)

            > This one misses the point entirely:
            > (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom
            > Jesus loved, was sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter
            > motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
            > is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to
            > Jesus side and asked, "Who is it Lord.
            >
            >
            Again, it misses the point only if the words 'in the
            bosom of' were not a set expression. The linguistic
            evidence (in particular its use with more than one
            person as the object) suggests that it was precisely
            that - a set phrase, an expression, an idiom. The
            point is then not about Jesus' bosom in and of itself,
            but of the sitting next to, in a place of honor
            alongside. This, at any rate, I take to be the point
            in all 3 Biblical occurrences.

            Looking forward to discussing this further,

            James McGrath







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          • James McGrath
            John, Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due to the difference between the modern of way of reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 9 1:30 AM
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              John,

              Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due
              to the difference between the 'modern' of way of
              reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
              meal on what we would call 'Passover Eve' (i.e. the
              day before Passover, after sundown) would in fact have
              been part of Passover day according to Jewish
              reckoning.

              Could this tie John together with Paul? If the
              Passover lambs were slain 'on the Eve of the
              Passover', then Paul may well have been aware of the
              same dating for Jesus' death as John suggests and as
              the rabbinic literature records. Would it then be
              conceivable that Mark could have been preserving a
              traditional association with Passover without having
              the same Jewish background to understand the
              chronology of the events linked to Passover?

              Thank you for helping shed another glimmer of light on
              a perplexing issue!

              Best wishes,

              James McGrath







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            • John Lupia
              To James McGrath You re very welcome James. Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I explained about Passover Eve. This was
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 9 2:14 AM
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                To James McGrath

                You're very welcome James.

                Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I
                explained about Passover Eve. This was their way of expressing this
                according to the cultural idiom.

                Cordially in Christ,
                John
                <><

                John N. Lupia
                501 North Avenue B-1
                Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                JLupia2@...
                <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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              • Yuri Kuchinsky
                ... recorded history have held this view of John s chronology and used leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 10 10:31 AM
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                  Steve Puluka wrote:

                  >> I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest
                  recorded history have held this view of John's chronology and used
                  leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason. <<

                  And on Sat Jul 7, 2001, John Lupia replied in,

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1770

                  >> The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II
                  concelebrated this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the
                  eucharistic using this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition. <<

                  John,

                  It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel. The differences with the
                  Synoptic chronology have never been resolved satisfactorily.

                  True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                  liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.
                  But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                  not be minimised. In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                  between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                  same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                  partaking of the Passover lamb.

                  Best wishes,

                  Yuri.

                  Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                  It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
                  to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
                • John Lupia
                  ... I assume you mean St. John s Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14. Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 10 12:00 PM
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                    Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                    >It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel.


                    I assume you mean St. John's Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14.
                    Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                    (Last Supper) was celebrated on Thursday Nisan 13.

                    >The differences with the Synoptic chronology have never been resolved
                    >satisfactorily.

                    This is only a problem with those researches that have not, IMHO, properly
                    understood the chronology of the Synoptic tradition having a conformity and
                    consistency with St. John. This is unfortunate and indeed creates confusion
                    and division. However if you examine the Synoptics you will find that they
                    all agree with St. John and the Last Supper fell on Thursday Nisan 13, the
                    Pesach Eve Seder. This understanding forms the basis of the teaching found
                    in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1333 "Faithful to the Lord's
                    command the Church continues to do so, in his memory until his glorious
                    return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread . . ." "He
                    took the cup filled with wine . . .'. Note that the Last Supper is the
                    "eve" of Jesus' Passion which fell on Passover as stated in 1096 "For
                    Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and resurrection of
                    Christ". Now since the Catholic Church officially teaches Christ was
                    crucified on Passover (Friday Nisan 14), and all four Gospels relate how the
                    Last Supper was the previous evening it only stands to logic and reason that
                    it was on Thursday Nisan 13 "the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder". Even if one were
                    to find alternate interpretations they would still have to agree that this
                    above chronology as I understand it and as held by the Catholic Church is
                    indeed possible. So, if it is possible why look for disconcordance where
                    there is none?


                    >True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                    >liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.

                    >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                    >not be minimised.


                    The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect and
                    is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent development. I
                    suggest you research this issue. I think what you are confusing is the
                    different liturgical rites within the Church. The Roman Rite uses
                    unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all use leaven bread. All
                    of these are Catholic traditions and conform to the official doctrine on the
                    Eucharist.


                    >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                    >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                    >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                    >partaking of the Passover lamb.


                    Please elaborate on this.


                    Cordially in Christ,
                    John
                    <><

                    John N. Lupia
                    501 North Avenue B-1
                    Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                    JLupia2@...
                    <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                    "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                    . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                    they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                    _______________________________________________________
                    Send a cool gift with your E-Card
                    http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
                  • Yuri Kuchinsky
                    ... Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according to the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 11 11:28 AM
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                      On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
                      > Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                      > >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                      > >not be minimised.
                      >
                      > The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect
                      > and is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent
                      > development. I suggest you research this issue. I think what you are
                      > confusing is the different liturgical rites within the Church. The
                      > Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all
                      > use leaven bread. All of these are Catholic traditions and conform to
                      > the official doctrine on the Eucharist.

                      Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is
                      already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according
                      to the Synoptic chronology, Jesus eats the Passover meal.

                      As you correctly point out, the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas
                      numerous Oriental Rites use leavened bread. Why this difference? In my
                      view, the difference arose because the Oriental Rites seem to assume that
                      the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

                      > >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                      > >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                      > >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                      > >partaking of the Passover lamb.
                      >
                      > Please elaborate on this.

                      See above.

                      As to your question about the genealogies, these are two extended passages
                      from Mt and Lk that, to my mind, give clear evidence of this material
                      being later than AD 50. (Although, this subject is probably off-topic on
                      John_Lit-L.)

                      Best regards,

                      Yuri.

                      Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                      Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
                      it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
                    • Thomas W Butler
                      Dear Steve, Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message. Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically identified in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 9, 2001
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                        Dear Steve,
                        Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message.
                        Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically
                        identified in the FG. You note, however, that the symbols that
                        are clearly associated with it DO appear in the text. I submit that
                        the symbolism is so consistent and clear that the writer(s) were
                        assuming that the readers were already familiar with the tradition
                        and would get the point. The stories of the annointing and the
                        footwashing in chapters 12 and 13 are clearly set within the context
                        of the last supper, even though the FG does not describe that meal
                        in detail.

                        Yours in Christ's service,
                        Tom Butler

                        On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
                        writes:
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
                        > > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
                        > > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
                        > > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
                        > > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
                        > > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
                        > > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
                        > > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
                        > > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
                        > > of the Passover.
                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Dear Thomas,
                        >
                        > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's
                        > narrative on
                        > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                        > There
                        > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I
                        > see that
                        > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                        > moved
                        > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for
                        > example.
                        >
                        > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that
                        > meal that
                        > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                        >
                        > Steve Puluka
                        > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
                        > Mckees Rocks PA
                        >
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