Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] Last Supper

Expand Messages
  • John Lupia
    On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com ... occurring ... Nobody is arguing against this. ... It is called the Pesach Eve
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      wrote:

      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
      > > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
      > > celebrated among Jews today.
      > -------------------------------------------------------
      Steve Puluka wrote:
      >
      > I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice
      occurring
      > on Friday.


      Nobody is arguing against this.


      >There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
      > prior to that sacrifice.


      It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented in Jewish literature, and
      stems from ancient tradition. It is not the Passover meal proper, but one
      the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it up.

      > Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the
      Lamb
      > by John the Baptist at the beginning.


      Nobody is arguing against this point either.


      Jesus is then condemned to death at
      > the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
      > When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
      > transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
      > think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
      > John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could
      NOT
      > be the Passover meal in John's chronology.


      Nobody is arguing against this view either. I only pointed out a tradition
      you seem to be unaware of called the Pesach Eve Seder. This is the
      preliminary meal the evening prior to the Passover, still very solemn and
      sacred.


      >
      > I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
      > history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread
      as
      > our Eucharist for this reason.


      The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II concelebrated
      this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the eucharistic using
      this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition.

      >I don't think that we have to harmonize
      > John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making
      their
      > own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points
      and
      > included in the scriptural canons of the Church.


      I do not see where the Gospels are ever disconcordant on any issue of faith
      and morals.

      Cordially in Christ,
      John
      <><

      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      JLupia2@...
      <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
      "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
      . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
      they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





      _______________________________________________________
      Send a cool gift with your E-Card
      http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
    • John Lupia
      On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com wrote: Steve Puluka wrote:, ... There ... that ... moved ... that ... I refer you to
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        wrote:


        Steve Puluka wrote:,
        >
        > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
        > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
        There
        > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see
        that
        > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
        moved
        > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.
        >
        > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal
        that
        > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
        >


        I refer you to Joh 13,2,4 the term DEIPNON "supper or banquet" is used to
        describe the context of the longest narrative in the entire NT (Joh
        13,1-17-26 = 5 chapters (23.8%)155 verses (17.39%); 2,822 words (17.81%);
        12,381 letters (17.14%)). Even from a papyrological perspective if we
        based a codex manuscript format on that of the specimen of P52 with an
        average of 554 letters to a page the narrative would span 22.34 pages or 11
        1/3 folio leaves. The enormous size of the narrative alone should have been
        sufficient enough evidence for even the humblest reader to realize that
        something extraordinary was taking place here within the context of DEIPNON.



        NOTE:

        Percentages in parentheses reflects that portion of the overall Johannine
        Gospel dedicated to the Last Supper Narrative. The statiscal measurements
        includes Joh 5,4 and Joh 7,53-8,11, which this editor considers original.)


        Cordially in Christ,
        John
        <><


        John N. Lupia
        501 North Avenue B-1
        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
        JLupia2@...
        <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
        "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
        . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
        they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





        _______________________________________________________
        Send a cool gift with your E-Card
        http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
      • James McGrath
        Steve Puluka wrote:, ... Although you are right to stress that the meal is in no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved disciple _reclining_ next to
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Steve Puluka wrote:,
          >
          > I would quibble with this interpretation. In
          > reading John's narrative on the night that Jesus was

          > betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
          > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his
          > hand. Rather, I see that the Eucharistic symbolism
          > we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
          > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and
          > the fish for example.
          >
          > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic
          > picture of that meal that we transfer the image to
          > John's story, when it is not there.
          >
          Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
          no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
          disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
          surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
          taking place.

          --- John Lupia <JLupia2@...> wrote:
          > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach
          > Eve Seder, still widely
          > celebrated among Jews today.
          > [snip]
          > It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented
          > in Jewish literature, and
          > stems from ancient tradition. It is not the
          > Passover meal proper, but one
          > the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it
          > up.
          >
          I think all of us would be most grateful if you could
          give us some indication of where to look it up. It is
          presumably a rabbinic tradition, but how ancient is
          it? If it is in the Mishnah or Tosefta that would
          probably be close enough to John's time for a link to
          be plausible. If it is only found in the midrashim or
          talmudim on the other hand, the distance in time would
          presumably necessitate extreme caution in appealing to
          the tradition in question to explain John.

          Please do let us know more about the Pesach Eve Seder
          when you get the chance.

          Thanks,

          James McGrath






          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
          http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
        • Ken Durkin
          From: James McGrath ... Reclining not simply next to Jesus but on Jesus.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

            > Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
            > no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
            > disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
            > surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
            > taking place.

            Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
          • John Lupia
            To: James McGrath Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature: Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              To: "James McGrath"
              Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature:

              Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
              writings of the Mishnaic & Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Pesahim, and the Gospel
              of John itself.


              Passover Eve

              Before the common meal on Passover eve, the day was filled with preperation
              for the even. A full contingent of priests -- twenty-four divisions instead
              of the usual one--came early to the Temple. Their first task was the
              burning of the hametz, "leven," which had been searched for by candlelight
              in each home the night before and then removed for burning the next morning
              (Mishnah, Pesahim 1-3). By midday all work stopped. The afternoon was set
              aside for the slaughtering of the lamb. The offering of the passover
              sacrifice at the Temple began about 3:00pm. (Pesahim 5:1) and was conducted
              in three massive shifts. When the temple courts was filled with the first
              group of offerers, the gates of the court were closed. The rams horn was
              sounded and the sacrifice began (Pesahim5:5). Each Jew slaughtered his own
              lamb. The priests stood in two rows, one holding a gold basins and the
              other silver. After the blood was drained into the basin, it was tossed
              against the base of the altar (Pesahim 5:6). While the offerings were going
              on, the Levites sang the Hallel (Pss 113-118). Each lamb was then skinned
              and its fat with kidneys removerd for burning on the alter (Pesahim 5:9-10;
              cf. Lev 3:3-5). Before leaving the temple each offerer slung his lamb --
              wrapped in its own hide over his shoulder (Babylonian Talmud, Peshahim 65b).
              He then departed with his company to prepare the passover meal.
              Immediately, the next division of offerers filed into the Temple court and
              the ritual was repeated. (cf. also Pesahim 66a & Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim
              6:1)


              Mishnah (Pesahim 4:1) "it is a positive commandment for each Jew to drink
              four cups of wine on Passover eve, and even the poorest Jew must not receive
              less than four cups of wine." Number four, four cups, have special
              significance, given in many variations: four cups of wine, four questions,
              four sons, four special symbolic foods to be eaten - the paschal sacrifice,
              the matza, the bitter herb and the haroset.

              For additional bibliographic references see:

              Wolf Heidenheim, Passover Eve (Roedelheim, 1822-23)

              Harold Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ,” Zondervan,
              1977).

              Rylands Hebrew MS 6 (Catalonian c. 1350) A Haggadah, or service book used
              at the Seder on Passover eve.

              Baruch Bokser, Origins of the Seder, (Univ. of Calif. Press) [o.p.]

              E. Daniel Goldschmidt, The Passover Haggadah: Its Sources and History (Mosad
              Bialik: Jerusalem, 1977) & additional readings tba; primary rabbinic
              sources.

              Yosef Hayim, Haggadah and history : a panorama in facsimile of five
              centuries of the printed Haggadah from the collections of Harvard University
              and the Jewish Theological Seminary of America [Philadelphia : Jewish
              Publication Society of America, 1976].

              Joseph Tabory, "The Passover eve ceremony : an historical survey " Immanuel
              No 12 (Spr 1981), p. 32-43.

              S. Stein, "The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the
              Pesach Haggadah" JJS 8 (1957), pp. 13-44

              Lawrence Hoffman, "A Symbol of Salvation in the Passover Seder" Passover and
              Easter: The Symbolic Structuing of Sacred Seasons [Two Liturgical
              Traditions, vol. 6] Notre Dame, Ind. Notre Dame Unversity Press, 1999

              Jakob J. Petuchowski, "Do this in remembrance of me' (1 Cor 11:24)" Journal
              of Biblical Literature 76 (D 1957), p. 293-298.

              Baruch M Bokser, "Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder?" Bible Review 3,2
              (1987) 24-33.

              Giuseppe Ghiberti," Jesus’ Passover Meal "SIDIC XXX:1 [1997], 8 12.


              Cordially in Christ,
              John
              <><


              John N. Lupia
              501 North Avenue B-1
              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
              JLupia2@...
              <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
              "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
              . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
              they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





              _______________________________________________________
              Send a cool gift with your E-Card
              http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
            • James McGrath
              ... Actually, I think that the phrase in the bosom of is, like the old English word abreast , a way of saying next to , alongside . That certainly seems
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                >
                Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                the other person is lying across them, then the
                expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)

                James McGrath







                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
                http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
              • Ken Durkin
                From: James McGrath ... The closeness is emphasized and the disciple s head falls back while lying on the breast of Jesus to
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                  > --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                  > >
                  > Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                  > is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                  > saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                  > be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                  > occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                  > papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                  > Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                  > the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                  > say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                  > the other person is lying across them, then the
                  > expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)
                  >
                  > James McGrath

                  The closeness is emphasized and the disciple's head falls back while lying
                  on the breast of Jesus to look at him face to face and ask the question. The
                  reader is aware of the meaning of "in the bosom" as an expression of
                  intimacy between Father and Son from 1:18. Common sense says the expression
                  "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A child lies in the bosom of
                  its mother. The expression means intimacy and here, a close physical
                  intimacy. The Douay and the Authorized are closest to my translation:

                  (Douay 1609) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,
                  whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him: Who is it of whom
                  he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him,
                  "Lord.

                  (Authorized 1611) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples
                  whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask
                  who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto
                  him, "Lord.

                  This one misses the point entirely:
                  (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was
                  sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                  is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to Jesus side and asked,
                  "Who is it Lord.
                • James McGrath
                  ... Dear Ken, Common sense tells different things to different people, especially those speaking different languages and living in different cultural contexts.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Common sense says the expression
                    > "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A
                    > child lies in the bosom of its mother. The
                    > expression means intimacy and here,
                    > a close physical intimacy.
                    >
                    Dear Ken,

                    Common sense tells different things to different
                    people, especially those speaking different languages
                    and living in different cultural contexts. The same
                    common sense you are using in relation to what I take
                    to be a Greek expression, might tell a modern German
                    that an English speaker who mentions 'columns of
                    soldiers five abreast' has in view 'the familial and
                    perhaps almost sexual closeness that is an aspect of
                    the rigours of military life together'. Of course,
                    this person is reading more into the word 'abreast'
                    than a native speaker would. There are plenty of
                    words and expressions that we use as part of set
                    phrases in which we are essentially unconscious of the
                    word's meaning independent of that context. (What does
                    a parkway have to do with parks or parking?)

                    > This one misses the point entirely:
                    > (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom
                    > Jesus loved, was sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter
                    > motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                    > is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to
                    > Jesus side and asked, "Who is it Lord.
                    >
                    >
                    Again, it misses the point only if the words 'in the
                    bosom of' were not a set expression. The linguistic
                    evidence (in particular its use with more than one
                    person as the object) suggests that it was precisely
                    that - a set phrase, an expression, an idiom. The
                    point is then not about Jesus' bosom in and of itself,
                    but of the sitting next to, in a place of honor
                    alongside. This, at any rate, I take to be the point
                    in all 3 Biblical occurrences.

                    Looking forward to discussing this further,

                    James McGrath







                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
                    http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
                  • James McGrath
                    John, Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due to the difference between the modern of way of reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      John,

                      Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due
                      to the difference between the 'modern' of way of
                      reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                      meal on what we would call 'Passover Eve' (i.e. the
                      day before Passover, after sundown) would in fact have
                      been part of Passover day according to Jewish
                      reckoning.

                      Could this tie John together with Paul? If the
                      Passover lambs were slain 'on the Eve of the
                      Passover', then Paul may well have been aware of the
                      same dating for Jesus' death as John suggests and as
                      the rabbinic literature records. Would it then be
                      conceivable that Mark could have been preserving a
                      traditional association with Passover without having
                      the same Jewish background to understand the
                      chronology of the events linked to Passover?

                      Thank you for helping shed another glimmer of light on
                      a perplexing issue!

                      Best wishes,

                      James McGrath







                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
                      http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
                    • John Lupia
                      To James McGrath You re very welcome James. Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I explained about Passover Eve. This was
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        To James McGrath

                        You're very welcome James.

                        Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I
                        explained about Passover Eve. This was their way of expressing this
                        according to the cultural idiom.

                        Cordially in Christ,
                        John
                        <><

                        John N. Lupia
                        501 North Avenue B-1
                        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                        JLupia2@...
                        <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                        "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                        . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                        they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                        _______________________________________________________
                        Send a cool gift with your E-Card
                        http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
                      • Yuri Kuchinsky
                        ... recorded history have held this view of John s chronology and used leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve Puluka wrote:

                          >> I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest
                          recorded history have held this view of John's chronology and used
                          leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason. <<

                          And on Sat Jul 7, 2001, John Lupia replied in,

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1770

                          >> The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II
                          concelebrated this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the
                          eucharistic using this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition. <<

                          John,

                          It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel. The differences with the
                          Synoptic chronology have never been resolved satisfactorily.

                          True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                          liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.
                          But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                          not be minimised. In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                          between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                          same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                          partaking of the Passover lamb.

                          Best wishes,

                          Yuri.

                          Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                          It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
                          to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
                        • John Lupia
                          ... I assume you mean St. John s Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14. Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                            >It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel.


                            I assume you mean St. John's Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14.
                            Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                            (Last Supper) was celebrated on Thursday Nisan 13.

                            >The differences with the Synoptic chronology have never been resolved
                            >satisfactorily.

                            This is only a problem with those researches that have not, IMHO, properly
                            understood the chronology of the Synoptic tradition having a conformity and
                            consistency with St. John. This is unfortunate and indeed creates confusion
                            and division. However if you examine the Synoptics you will find that they
                            all agree with St. John and the Last Supper fell on Thursday Nisan 13, the
                            Pesach Eve Seder. This understanding forms the basis of the teaching found
                            in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1333 "Faithful to the Lord's
                            command the Church continues to do so, in his memory until his glorious
                            return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread . . ." "He
                            took the cup filled with wine . . .'. Note that the Last Supper is the
                            "eve" of Jesus' Passion which fell on Passover as stated in 1096 "For
                            Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and resurrection of
                            Christ". Now since the Catholic Church officially teaches Christ was
                            crucified on Passover (Friday Nisan 14), and all four Gospels relate how the
                            Last Supper was the previous evening it only stands to logic and reason that
                            it was on Thursday Nisan 13 "the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder". Even if one were
                            to find alternate interpretations they would still have to agree that this
                            above chronology as I understand it and as held by the Catholic Church is
                            indeed possible. So, if it is possible why look for disconcordance where
                            there is none?


                            >True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                            >liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.

                            >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                            >not be minimised.


                            The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect and
                            is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent development. I
                            suggest you research this issue. I think what you are confusing is the
                            different liturgical rites within the Church. The Roman Rite uses
                            unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all use leaven bread. All
                            of these are Catholic traditions and conform to the official doctrine on the
                            Eucharist.


                            >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                            >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                            >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                            >partaking of the Passover lamb.


                            Please elaborate on this.


                            Cordially in Christ,
                            John
                            <><

                            John N. Lupia
                            501 North Avenue B-1
                            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                            JLupia2@...
                            <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                            "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                            . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                            they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                            _______________________________________________________
                            Send a cool gift with your E-Card
                            http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
                          • Yuri Kuchinsky
                            ... Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according to the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 11, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
                              > Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                              > >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                              > >not be minimised.
                              >
                              > The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect
                              > and is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent
                              > development. I suggest you research this issue. I think what you are
                              > confusing is the different liturgical rites within the Church. The
                              > Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all
                              > use leaven bread. All of these are Catholic traditions and conform to
                              > the official doctrine on the Eucharist.

                              Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is
                              already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according
                              to the Synoptic chronology, Jesus eats the Passover meal.

                              As you correctly point out, the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas
                              numerous Oriental Rites use leavened bread. Why this difference? In my
                              view, the difference arose because the Oriental Rites seem to assume that
                              the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

                              > >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                              > >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                              > >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                              > >partaking of the Passover lamb.
                              >
                              > Please elaborate on this.

                              See above.

                              As to your question about the genealogies, these are two extended passages
                              from Mt and Lk that, to my mind, give clear evidence of this material
                              being later than AD 50. (Although, this subject is probably off-topic on
                              John_Lit-L.)

                              Best regards,

                              Yuri.

                              Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                              Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
                              it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
                            • Thomas W Butler
                              Dear Steve, Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message. Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically identified in
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 9, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Steve,
                                Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message.
                                Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically
                                identified in the FG. You note, however, that the symbols that
                                are clearly associated with it DO appear in the text. I submit that
                                the symbolism is so consistent and clear that the writer(s) were
                                assuming that the readers were already familiar with the tradition
                                and would get the point. The stories of the annointing and the
                                footwashing in chapters 12 and 13 are clearly set within the context
                                of the last supper, even though the FG does not describe that meal
                                in detail.

                                Yours in Christ's service,
                                Tom Butler

                                On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
                                writes:
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
                                > > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
                                > > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
                                > > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
                                > > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
                                > > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
                                > > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
                                > > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
                                > > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
                                > > of the Passover.
                                > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Dear Thomas,
                                >
                                > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's
                                > narrative on
                                > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                                > There
                                > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I
                                > see that
                                > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                                > moved
                                > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for
                                > example.
                                >
                                > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that
                                > meal that
                                > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                                >
                                > Steve Puluka
                                > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
                                > Mckees Rocks PA
                                >
                                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.