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Re: [John_Lit] Last Supper

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  • Steve Puluka
    ... From: Thomas W Butler ... Dear Thomas, I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John s narrative on the night that
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
      > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
      > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
      > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
      > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
      > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
      > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
      > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
      > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
      > of the Passover.
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
      Dear Thomas,

      I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
      the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
      is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see that
      the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
      to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.

      I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal that
      we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.

      Steve Puluka
      Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
      Mckees Rocks PA
    • Steve Puluka
      ... From: John Lupia ... Dear John, I disagree. John s narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring on Friday. There is no
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
        > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
        > celebrated among Jews today.
        -------------------------------------------------------
        Dear John,

        I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring
        on Friday. There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
        prior to that sacrifice.

        Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the Lamb
        by John the Baptist at the beginning. Jesus is then condemned to death at
        the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
        When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
        transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
        think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
        John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could NOT
        be the Passover meal in John's chronology.

        I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
        history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread as
        our Eucharist for this reason. I don't think that we have to harmonize
        John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making their
        own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points and
        included in the scriptural canons of the Church.

        Steve Puluka
        Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
        Mckees Rocks PA
      • John Lupia
        On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com ... occurring ... Nobody is arguing against this. ... It is called the Pesach Eve
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
          On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          wrote:

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
          > > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
          > > celebrated among Jews today.
          > -------------------------------------------------------
          Steve Puluka wrote:
          >
          > I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice
          occurring
          > on Friday.


          Nobody is arguing against this.


          >There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
          > prior to that sacrifice.


          It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented in Jewish literature, and
          stems from ancient tradition. It is not the Passover meal proper, but one
          the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it up.

          > Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the
          Lamb
          > by John the Baptist at the beginning.


          Nobody is arguing against this point either.


          Jesus is then condemned to death at
          > the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
          > When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
          > transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
          > think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
          > John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could
          NOT
          > be the Passover meal in John's chronology.


          Nobody is arguing against this view either. I only pointed out a tradition
          you seem to be unaware of called the Pesach Eve Seder. This is the
          preliminary meal the evening prior to the Passover, still very solemn and
          sacred.


          >
          > I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
          > history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread
          as
          > our Eucharist for this reason.


          The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II concelebrated
          this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the eucharistic using
          this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition.

          >I don't think that we have to harmonize
          > John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making
          their
          > own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points
          and
          > included in the scriptural canons of the Church.


          I do not see where the Gospels are ever disconcordant on any issue of faith
          and morals.

          Cordially in Christ,
          John
          <><

          John N. Lupia
          501 North Avenue B-1
          Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
          JLupia2@...
          <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
          "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
          . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
          they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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        • John Lupia
          On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com wrote: Steve Puluka wrote:, ... There ... that ... moved ... that ... I refer you to
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
            On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            wrote:


            Steve Puluka wrote:,
            >
            > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
            > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
            There
            > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see
            that
            > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
            moved
            > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.
            >
            > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal
            that
            > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
            >


            I refer you to Joh 13,2,4 the term DEIPNON "supper or banquet" is used to
            describe the context of the longest narrative in the entire NT (Joh
            13,1-17-26 = 5 chapters (23.8%)155 verses (17.39%); 2,822 words (17.81%);
            12,381 letters (17.14%)). Even from a papyrological perspective if we
            based a codex manuscript format on that of the specimen of P52 with an
            average of 554 letters to a page the narrative would span 22.34 pages or 11
            1/3 folio leaves. The enormous size of the narrative alone should have been
            sufficient enough evidence for even the humblest reader to realize that
            something extraordinary was taking place here within the context of DEIPNON.



            NOTE:

            Percentages in parentheses reflects that portion of the overall Johannine
            Gospel dedicated to the Last Supper Narrative. The statiscal measurements
            includes Joh 5,4 and Joh 7,53-8,11, which this editor considers original.)


            Cordially in Christ,
            John
            <><


            John N. Lupia
            501 North Avenue B-1
            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
            JLupia2@...
            <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
            "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
            . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
            they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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          • James McGrath
            Steve Puluka wrote:, ... Although you are right to stress that the meal is in no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved disciple _reclining_ next to
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
              Steve Puluka wrote:,
              >
              > I would quibble with this interpretation. In
              > reading John's narrative on the night that Jesus was

              > betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
              > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his
              > hand. Rather, I see that the Eucharistic symbolism
              > we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
              > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and
              > the fish for example.
              >
              > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic
              > picture of that meal that we transfer the image to
              > John's story, when it is not there.
              >
              Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
              no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
              disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
              surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
              taking place.

              --- John Lupia <JLupia2@...> wrote:
              > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach
              > Eve Seder, still widely
              > celebrated among Jews today.
              > [snip]
              > It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented
              > in Jewish literature, and
              > stems from ancient tradition. It is not the
              > Passover meal proper, but one
              > the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it
              > up.
              >
              I think all of us would be most grateful if you could
              give us some indication of where to look it up. It is
              presumably a rabbinic tradition, but how ancient is
              it? If it is in the Mishnah or Tosefta that would
              probably be close enough to John's time for a link to
              be plausible. If it is only found in the midrashim or
              talmudim on the other hand, the distance in time would
              presumably necessitate extreme caution in appealing to
              the tradition in question to explain John.

              Please do let us know more about the Pesach Eve Seder
              when you get the chance.

              Thanks,

              James McGrath






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            • Ken Durkin
              From: James McGrath ... Reclining not simply next to Jesus but on Jesus.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                > Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
                > no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
                > disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
                > surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
                > taking place.

                Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
              • John Lupia
                To: James McGrath Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature: Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                  To: "James McGrath"
                  Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature:

                  Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                  writings of the Mishnaic & Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Pesahim, and the Gospel
                  of John itself.


                  Passover Eve

                  Before the common meal on Passover eve, the day was filled with preperation
                  for the even. A full contingent of priests -- twenty-four divisions instead
                  of the usual one--came early to the Temple. Their first task was the
                  burning of the hametz, "leven," which had been searched for by candlelight
                  in each home the night before and then removed for burning the next morning
                  (Mishnah, Pesahim 1-3). By midday all work stopped. The afternoon was set
                  aside for the slaughtering of the lamb. The offering of the passover
                  sacrifice at the Temple began about 3:00pm. (Pesahim 5:1) and was conducted
                  in three massive shifts. When the temple courts was filled with the first
                  group of offerers, the gates of the court were closed. The rams horn was
                  sounded and the sacrifice began (Pesahim5:5). Each Jew slaughtered his own
                  lamb. The priests stood in two rows, one holding a gold basins and the
                  other silver. After the blood was drained into the basin, it was tossed
                  against the base of the altar (Pesahim 5:6). While the offerings were going
                  on, the Levites sang the Hallel (Pss 113-118). Each lamb was then skinned
                  and its fat with kidneys removerd for burning on the alter (Pesahim 5:9-10;
                  cf. Lev 3:3-5). Before leaving the temple each offerer slung his lamb --
                  wrapped in its own hide over his shoulder (Babylonian Talmud, Peshahim 65b).
                  He then departed with his company to prepare the passover meal.
                  Immediately, the next division of offerers filed into the Temple court and
                  the ritual was repeated. (cf. also Pesahim 66a & Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim
                  6:1)


                  Mishnah (Pesahim 4:1) "it is a positive commandment for each Jew to drink
                  four cups of wine on Passover eve, and even the poorest Jew must not receive
                  less than four cups of wine." Number four, four cups, have special
                  significance, given in many variations: four cups of wine, four questions,
                  four sons, four special symbolic foods to be eaten - the paschal sacrifice,
                  the matza, the bitter herb and the haroset.

                  For additional bibliographic references see:

                  Wolf Heidenheim, Passover Eve (Roedelheim, 1822-23)

                  Harold Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ,” Zondervan,
                  1977).

                  Rylands Hebrew MS 6 (Catalonian c. 1350) A Haggadah, or service book used
                  at the Seder on Passover eve.

                  Baruch Bokser, Origins of the Seder, (Univ. of Calif. Press) [o.p.]

                  E. Daniel Goldschmidt, The Passover Haggadah: Its Sources and History (Mosad
                  Bialik: Jerusalem, 1977) & additional readings tba; primary rabbinic
                  sources.

                  Yosef Hayim, Haggadah and history : a panorama in facsimile of five
                  centuries of the printed Haggadah from the collections of Harvard University
                  and the Jewish Theological Seminary of America [Philadelphia : Jewish
                  Publication Society of America, 1976].

                  Joseph Tabory, "The Passover eve ceremony : an historical survey " Immanuel
                  No 12 (Spr 1981), p. 32-43.

                  S. Stein, "The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the
                  Pesach Haggadah" JJS 8 (1957), pp. 13-44

                  Lawrence Hoffman, "A Symbol of Salvation in the Passover Seder" Passover and
                  Easter: The Symbolic Structuing of Sacred Seasons [Two Liturgical
                  Traditions, vol. 6] Notre Dame, Ind. Notre Dame Unversity Press, 1999

                  Jakob J. Petuchowski, "Do this in remembrance of me' (1 Cor 11:24)" Journal
                  of Biblical Literature 76 (D 1957), p. 293-298.

                  Baruch M Bokser, "Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder?" Bible Review 3,2
                  (1987) 24-33.

                  Giuseppe Ghiberti," Jesus’ Passover Meal "SIDIC XXX:1 [1997], 8 12.


                  Cordially in Christ,
                  John
                  <><


                  John N. Lupia
                  501 North Avenue B-1
                  Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                  JLupia2@...
                  <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                  "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                  . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                  they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                  _______________________________________________________
                  Send a cool gift with your E-Card
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                • James McGrath
                  ... Actually, I think that the phrase in the bosom of is, like the old English word abreast , a way of saying next to , alongside . That certainly seems
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                    --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                    >
                    Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                    is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                    saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                    be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                    occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                    papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                    Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                    the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                    say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                    the other person is lying across them, then the
                    expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)

                    James McGrath







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                  • Ken Durkin
                    From: James McGrath ... The closeness is emphasized and the disciple s head falls back while lying on the breast of Jesus to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                      From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                      > --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                      > >
                      > Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                      > is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                      > saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                      > be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                      > occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                      > papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                      > Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                      > the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                      > say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                      > the other person is lying across them, then the
                      > expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)
                      >
                      > James McGrath

                      The closeness is emphasized and the disciple's head falls back while lying
                      on the breast of Jesus to look at him face to face and ask the question. The
                      reader is aware of the meaning of "in the bosom" as an expression of
                      intimacy between Father and Son from 1:18. Common sense says the expression
                      "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A child lies in the bosom of
                      its mother. The expression means intimacy and here, a close physical
                      intimacy. The Douay and the Authorized are closest to my translation:

                      (Douay 1609) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,
                      whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him: Who is it of whom
                      he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him,
                      "Lord.

                      (Authorized 1611) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples
                      whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask
                      who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto
                      him, "Lord.

                      This one misses the point entirely:
                      (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was
                      sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                      is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to Jesus side and asked,
                      "Who is it Lord.
                    • James McGrath
                      ... Dear Ken, Common sense tells different things to different people, especially those speaking different languages and living in different cultural contexts.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                        --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Common sense says the expression
                        > "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A
                        > child lies in the bosom of its mother. The
                        > expression means intimacy and here,
                        > a close physical intimacy.
                        >
                        Dear Ken,

                        Common sense tells different things to different
                        people, especially those speaking different languages
                        and living in different cultural contexts. The same
                        common sense you are using in relation to what I take
                        to be a Greek expression, might tell a modern German
                        that an English speaker who mentions 'columns of
                        soldiers five abreast' has in view 'the familial and
                        perhaps almost sexual closeness that is an aspect of
                        the rigours of military life together'. Of course,
                        this person is reading more into the word 'abreast'
                        than a native speaker would. There are plenty of
                        words and expressions that we use as part of set
                        phrases in which we are essentially unconscious of the
                        word's meaning independent of that context. (What does
                        a parkway have to do with parks or parking?)

                        > This one misses the point entirely:
                        > (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom
                        > Jesus loved, was sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter
                        > motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                        > is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to
                        > Jesus side and asked, "Who is it Lord.
                        >
                        >
                        Again, it misses the point only if the words 'in the
                        bosom of' were not a set expression. The linguistic
                        evidence (in particular its use with more than one
                        person as the object) suggests that it was precisely
                        that - a set phrase, an expression, an idiom. The
                        point is then not about Jesus' bosom in and of itself,
                        but of the sitting next to, in a place of honor
                        alongside. This, at any rate, I take to be the point
                        in all 3 Biblical occurrences.

                        Looking forward to discussing this further,

                        James McGrath







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                      • James McGrath
                        John, Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due to the difference between the modern of way of reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                          John,

                          Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due
                          to the difference between the 'modern' of way of
                          reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                          meal on what we would call 'Passover Eve' (i.e. the
                          day before Passover, after sundown) would in fact have
                          been part of Passover day according to Jewish
                          reckoning.

                          Could this tie John together with Paul? If the
                          Passover lambs were slain 'on the Eve of the
                          Passover', then Paul may well have been aware of the
                          same dating for Jesus' death as John suggests and as
                          the rabbinic literature records. Would it then be
                          conceivable that Mark could have been preserving a
                          traditional association with Passover without having
                          the same Jewish background to understand the
                          chronology of the events linked to Passover?

                          Thank you for helping shed another glimmer of light on
                          a perplexing issue!

                          Best wishes,

                          James McGrath







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                        • John Lupia
                          To James McGrath You re very welcome James. Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I explained about Passover Eve. This was
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                            To James McGrath

                            You're very welcome James.

                            Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I
                            explained about Passover Eve. This was their way of expressing this
                            according to the cultural idiom.

                            Cordially in Christ,
                            John
                            <><

                            John N. Lupia
                            501 North Avenue B-1
                            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                            JLupia2@...
                            <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                            "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                            . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                            they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                            _______________________________________________________
                            Send a cool gift with your E-Card
                            http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
                          • Yuri Kuchinsky
                            ... recorded history have held this view of John s chronology and used leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                              Steve Puluka wrote:

                              >> I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest
                              recorded history have held this view of John's chronology and used
                              leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason. <<

                              And on Sat Jul 7, 2001, John Lupia replied in,

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1770

                              >> The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II
                              concelebrated this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the
                              eucharistic using this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition. <<

                              John,

                              It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel. The differences with the
                              Synoptic chronology have never been resolved satisfactorily.

                              True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                              liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.
                              But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                              not be minimised. In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                              between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                              same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                              partaking of the Passover lamb.

                              Best wishes,

                              Yuri.

                              Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                              It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
                              to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
                            • John Lupia
                              ... I assume you mean St. John s Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14. Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                                Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                >It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel.


                                I assume you mean St. John's Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14.
                                Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                                (Last Supper) was celebrated on Thursday Nisan 13.

                                >The differences with the Synoptic chronology have never been resolved
                                >satisfactorily.

                                This is only a problem with those researches that have not, IMHO, properly
                                understood the chronology of the Synoptic tradition having a conformity and
                                consistency with St. John. This is unfortunate and indeed creates confusion
                                and division. However if you examine the Synoptics you will find that they
                                all agree with St. John and the Last Supper fell on Thursday Nisan 13, the
                                Pesach Eve Seder. This understanding forms the basis of the teaching found
                                in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1333 "Faithful to the Lord's
                                command the Church continues to do so, in his memory until his glorious
                                return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread . . ." "He
                                took the cup filled with wine . . .'. Note that the Last Supper is the
                                "eve" of Jesus' Passion which fell on Passover as stated in 1096 "For
                                Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and resurrection of
                                Christ". Now since the Catholic Church officially teaches Christ was
                                crucified on Passover (Friday Nisan 14), and all four Gospels relate how the
                                Last Supper was the previous evening it only stands to logic and reason that
                                it was on Thursday Nisan 13 "the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder". Even if one were
                                to find alternate interpretations they would still have to agree that this
                                above chronology as I understand it and as held by the Catholic Church is
                                indeed possible. So, if it is possible why look for disconcordance where
                                there is none?


                                >True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                                >liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.

                                >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                >not be minimised.


                                The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect and
                                is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent development. I
                                suggest you research this issue. I think what you are confusing is the
                                different liturgical rites within the Church. The Roman Rite uses
                                unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all use leaven bread. All
                                of these are Catholic traditions and conform to the official doctrine on the
                                Eucharist.


                                >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                >partaking of the Passover lamb.


                                Please elaborate on this.


                                Cordially in Christ,
                                John
                                <><

                                John N. Lupia
                                501 North Avenue B-1
                                Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                                JLupia2@...
                                <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                                "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                                . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                                they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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                              • Yuri Kuchinsky
                                ... Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according to the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 11, 2001
                                  On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
                                  > Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                  > >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                  > >not be minimised.
                                  >
                                  > The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect
                                  > and is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent
                                  > development. I suggest you research this issue. I think what you are
                                  > confusing is the different liturgical rites within the Church. The
                                  > Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all
                                  > use leaven bread. All of these are Catholic traditions and conform to
                                  > the official doctrine on the Eucharist.

                                  Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is
                                  already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according
                                  to the Synoptic chronology, Jesus eats the Passover meal.

                                  As you correctly point out, the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas
                                  numerous Oriental Rites use leavened bread. Why this difference? In my
                                  view, the difference arose because the Oriental Rites seem to assume that
                                  the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

                                  > >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                  > >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                  > >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                  > >partaking of the Passover lamb.
                                  >
                                  > Please elaborate on this.

                                  See above.

                                  As to your question about the genealogies, these are two extended passages
                                  from Mt and Lk that, to my mind, give clear evidence of this material
                                  being later than AD 50. (Although, this subject is probably off-topic on
                                  John_Lit-L.)

                                  Best regards,

                                  Yuri.

                                  Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                                  Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
                                  it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
                                • Thomas W Butler
                                  Dear Steve, Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message. Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically identified in
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 9, 2001
                                    Dear Steve,
                                    Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message.
                                    Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically
                                    identified in the FG. You note, however, that the symbols that
                                    are clearly associated with it DO appear in the text. I submit that
                                    the symbolism is so consistent and clear that the writer(s) were
                                    assuming that the readers were already familiar with the tradition
                                    and would get the point. The stories of the annointing and the
                                    footwashing in chapters 12 and 13 are clearly set within the context
                                    of the last supper, even though the FG does not describe that meal
                                    in detail.

                                    Yours in Christ's service,
                                    Tom Butler

                                    On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
                                    writes:
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
                                    > > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
                                    > > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
                                    > > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
                                    > > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
                                    > > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
                                    > > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
                                    > > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
                                    > > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
                                    > > of the Passover.
                                    > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > Dear Thomas,
                                    >
                                    > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's
                                    > narrative on
                                    > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                                    > There
                                    > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I
                                    > see that
                                    > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                                    > moved
                                    > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for
                                    > example.
                                    >
                                    > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that
                                    > meal that
                                    > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                                    >
                                    > Steve Puluka
                                    > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
                                    > Mckees Rocks PA
                                    >
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