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Re: [John_Lit] Last Supper

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  • John Lupia
    John s Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely celebrated among Jews today. It was during this meal that the men wore the kittel in
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 5, 2001
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      John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
      celebrated among Jews today. It was during this meal that the men wore the
      kittel in the medieval and moder periods which was a type of shepherd's coat
      a type of full garment tallith that was sleeveless and worn in the first
      century. This garment corresponds to the "garment without seam" in John's
      Gospel.

      Cordially in Christ,
      John
      <><

      John N. Lupia
      501 North Avenue B-1
      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      JLupia2@...
      <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
      "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
      . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
      they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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    • Steve Puluka
      ... From: Thomas W Butler ... Dear Thomas, I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John s narrative on the night that
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
        > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
        > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
        > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
        > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
        > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
        > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
        > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
        > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
        > of the Passover.
        ---------------------------------------------------------------
        Dear Thomas,

        I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
        the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
        is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see that
        the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
        to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.

        I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal that
        we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.

        Steve Puluka
        Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
        Mckees Rocks PA
      • Steve Puluka
        ... From: John Lupia ... Dear John, I disagree. John s narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring on Friday. There is no
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
          > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
          > celebrated among Jews today.
          -------------------------------------------------------
          Dear John,

          I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring
          on Friday. There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
          prior to that sacrifice.

          Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the Lamb
          by John the Baptist at the beginning. Jesus is then condemned to death at
          the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
          When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
          transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
          think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
          John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could NOT
          be the Passover meal in John's chronology.

          I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
          history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread as
          our Eucharist for this reason. I don't think that we have to harmonize
          John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making their
          own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points and
          included in the scriptural canons of the Church.

          Steve Puluka
          Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
          Mckees Rocks PA
        • John Lupia
          On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com ... occurring ... Nobody is arguing against this. ... It is called the Pesach Eve
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
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            On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            wrote:

            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
            > > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
            > > celebrated among Jews today.
            > -------------------------------------------------------
            Steve Puluka wrote:
            >
            > I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice
            occurring
            > on Friday.


            Nobody is arguing against this.


            >There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
            > prior to that sacrifice.


            It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented in Jewish literature, and
            stems from ancient tradition. It is not the Passover meal proper, but one
            the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it up.

            > Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the
            Lamb
            > by John the Baptist at the beginning.


            Nobody is arguing against this point either.


            Jesus is then condemned to death at
            > the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
            > When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
            > transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
            > think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
            > John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could
            NOT
            > be the Passover meal in John's chronology.


            Nobody is arguing against this view either. I only pointed out a tradition
            you seem to be unaware of called the Pesach Eve Seder. This is the
            preliminary meal the evening prior to the Passover, still very solemn and
            sacred.


            >
            > I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
            > history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread
            as
            > our Eucharist for this reason.


            The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II concelebrated
            this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the eucharistic using
            this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition.

            >I don't think that we have to harmonize
            > John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making
            their
            > own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points
            and
            > included in the scriptural canons of the Church.


            I do not see where the Gospels are ever disconcordant on any issue of faith
            and morals.

            Cordially in Christ,
            John
            <><

            John N. Lupia
            501 North Avenue B-1
            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
            JLupia2@...
            <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
            "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
            . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
            they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





            _______________________________________________________
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          • John Lupia
            On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com wrote: Steve Puluka wrote:, ... There ... that ... moved ... that ... I refer you to
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
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              On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              wrote:


              Steve Puluka wrote:,
              >
              > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
              > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
              There
              > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see
              that
              > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
              moved
              > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.
              >
              > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal
              that
              > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
              >


              I refer you to Joh 13,2,4 the term DEIPNON "supper or banquet" is used to
              describe the context of the longest narrative in the entire NT (Joh
              13,1-17-26 = 5 chapters (23.8%)155 verses (17.39%); 2,822 words (17.81%);
              12,381 letters (17.14%)). Even from a papyrological perspective if we
              based a codex manuscript format on that of the specimen of P52 with an
              average of 554 letters to a page the narrative would span 22.34 pages or 11
              1/3 folio leaves. The enormous size of the narrative alone should have been
              sufficient enough evidence for even the humblest reader to realize that
              something extraordinary was taking place here within the context of DEIPNON.



              NOTE:

              Percentages in parentheses reflects that portion of the overall Johannine
              Gospel dedicated to the Last Supper Narrative. The statiscal measurements
              includes Joh 5,4 and Joh 7,53-8,11, which this editor considers original.)


              Cordially in Christ,
              John
              <><


              John N. Lupia
              501 North Avenue B-1
              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
              JLupia2@...
              <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
              "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
              . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
              they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





              _______________________________________________________
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            • James McGrath
              Steve Puluka wrote:, ... Although you are right to stress that the meal is in no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved disciple _reclining_ next to
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                Steve Puluka wrote:,
                >
                > I would quibble with this interpretation. In
                > reading John's narrative on the night that Jesus was

                > betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
                > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his
                > hand. Rather, I see that the Eucharistic symbolism
                > we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
                > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and
                > the fish for example.
                >
                > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic
                > picture of that meal that we transfer the image to
                > John's story, when it is not there.
                >
                Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
                no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
                disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
                surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
                taking place.

                --- John Lupia <JLupia2@...> wrote:
                > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach
                > Eve Seder, still widely
                > celebrated among Jews today.
                > [snip]
                > It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented
                > in Jewish literature, and
                > stems from ancient tradition. It is not the
                > Passover meal proper, but one
                > the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it
                > up.
                >
                I think all of us would be most grateful if you could
                give us some indication of where to look it up. It is
                presumably a rabbinic tradition, but how ancient is
                it? If it is in the Mishnah or Tosefta that would
                probably be close enough to John's time for a link to
                be plausible. If it is only found in the midrashim or
                talmudim on the other hand, the distance in time would
                presumably necessitate extreme caution in appealing to
                the tradition in question to explain John.

                Please do let us know more about the Pesach Eve Seder
                when you get the chance.

                Thanks,

                James McGrath






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              • Ken Durkin
                From: James McGrath ... Reclining not simply next to Jesus but on Jesus.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                  From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                  > Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
                  > no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
                  > disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
                  > surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
                  > taking place.

                  Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                • John Lupia
                  To: James McGrath Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature: Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                    To: "James McGrath"
                    Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature:

                    Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                    writings of the Mishnaic & Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Pesahim, and the Gospel
                    of John itself.


                    Passover Eve

                    Before the common meal on Passover eve, the day was filled with preperation
                    for the even. A full contingent of priests -- twenty-four divisions instead
                    of the usual one--came early to the Temple. Their first task was the
                    burning of the hametz, "leven," which had been searched for by candlelight
                    in each home the night before and then removed for burning the next morning
                    (Mishnah, Pesahim 1-3). By midday all work stopped. The afternoon was set
                    aside for the slaughtering of the lamb. The offering of the passover
                    sacrifice at the Temple began about 3:00pm. (Pesahim 5:1) and was conducted
                    in three massive shifts. When the temple courts was filled with the first
                    group of offerers, the gates of the court were closed. The rams horn was
                    sounded and the sacrifice began (Pesahim5:5). Each Jew slaughtered his own
                    lamb. The priests stood in two rows, one holding a gold basins and the
                    other silver. After the blood was drained into the basin, it was tossed
                    against the base of the altar (Pesahim 5:6). While the offerings were going
                    on, the Levites sang the Hallel (Pss 113-118). Each lamb was then skinned
                    and its fat with kidneys removerd for burning on the alter (Pesahim 5:9-10;
                    cf. Lev 3:3-5). Before leaving the temple each offerer slung his lamb --
                    wrapped in its own hide over his shoulder (Babylonian Talmud, Peshahim 65b).
                    He then departed with his company to prepare the passover meal.
                    Immediately, the next division of offerers filed into the Temple court and
                    the ritual was repeated. (cf. also Pesahim 66a & Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim
                    6:1)


                    Mishnah (Pesahim 4:1) "it is a positive commandment for each Jew to drink
                    four cups of wine on Passover eve, and even the poorest Jew must not receive
                    less than four cups of wine." Number four, four cups, have special
                    significance, given in many variations: four cups of wine, four questions,
                    four sons, four special symbolic foods to be eaten - the paschal sacrifice,
                    the matza, the bitter herb and the haroset.

                    For additional bibliographic references see:

                    Wolf Heidenheim, Passover Eve (Roedelheim, 1822-23)

                    Harold Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ,” Zondervan,
                    1977).

                    Rylands Hebrew MS 6 (Catalonian c. 1350) A Haggadah, or service book used
                    at the Seder on Passover eve.

                    Baruch Bokser, Origins of the Seder, (Univ. of Calif. Press) [o.p.]

                    E. Daniel Goldschmidt, The Passover Haggadah: Its Sources and History (Mosad
                    Bialik: Jerusalem, 1977) & additional readings tba; primary rabbinic
                    sources.

                    Yosef Hayim, Haggadah and history : a panorama in facsimile of five
                    centuries of the printed Haggadah from the collections of Harvard University
                    and the Jewish Theological Seminary of America [Philadelphia : Jewish
                    Publication Society of America, 1976].

                    Joseph Tabory, "The Passover eve ceremony : an historical survey " Immanuel
                    No 12 (Spr 1981), p. 32-43.

                    S. Stein, "The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the
                    Pesach Haggadah" JJS 8 (1957), pp. 13-44

                    Lawrence Hoffman, "A Symbol of Salvation in the Passover Seder" Passover and
                    Easter: The Symbolic Structuing of Sacred Seasons [Two Liturgical
                    Traditions, vol. 6] Notre Dame, Ind. Notre Dame Unversity Press, 1999

                    Jakob J. Petuchowski, "Do this in remembrance of me' (1 Cor 11:24)" Journal
                    of Biblical Literature 76 (D 1957), p. 293-298.

                    Baruch M Bokser, "Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder?" Bible Review 3,2
                    (1987) 24-33.

                    Giuseppe Ghiberti," Jesus’ Passover Meal "SIDIC XXX:1 [1997], 8 12.


                    Cordially in Christ,
                    John
                    <><


                    John N. Lupia
                    501 North Avenue B-1
                    Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                    JLupia2@...
                    <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                    "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                    . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                    they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                    _______________________________________________________
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                  • James McGrath
                    ... Actually, I think that the phrase in the bosom of is, like the old English word abreast , a way of saying next to , alongside . That certainly seems
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                      --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                      >
                      Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                      is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                      saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                      be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                      occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                      papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                      Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                      the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                      say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                      the other person is lying across them, then the
                      expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)

                      James McGrath







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                    • Ken Durkin
                      From: James McGrath ... The closeness is emphasized and the disciple s head falls back while lying on the breast of Jesus to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                        From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                        > --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                        > >
                        > Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                        > is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                        > saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                        > be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                        > occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                        > papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                        > Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                        > the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                        > say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                        > the other person is lying across them, then the
                        > expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)
                        >
                        > James McGrath

                        The closeness is emphasized and the disciple's head falls back while lying
                        on the breast of Jesus to look at him face to face and ask the question. The
                        reader is aware of the meaning of "in the bosom" as an expression of
                        intimacy between Father and Son from 1:18. Common sense says the expression
                        "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A child lies in the bosom of
                        its mother. The expression means intimacy and here, a close physical
                        intimacy. The Douay and the Authorized are closest to my translation:

                        (Douay 1609) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,
                        whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him: Who is it of whom
                        he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him,
                        "Lord.

                        (Authorized 1611) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples
                        whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask
                        who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto
                        him, "Lord.

                        This one misses the point entirely:
                        (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was
                        sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                        is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to Jesus side and asked,
                        "Who is it Lord.
                      • James McGrath
                        ... Dear Ken, Common sense tells different things to different people, especially those speaking different languages and living in different cultural contexts.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
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                          --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Common sense says the expression
                          > "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A
                          > child lies in the bosom of its mother. The
                          > expression means intimacy and here,
                          > a close physical intimacy.
                          >
                          Dear Ken,

                          Common sense tells different things to different
                          people, especially those speaking different languages
                          and living in different cultural contexts. The same
                          common sense you are using in relation to what I take
                          to be a Greek expression, might tell a modern German
                          that an English speaker who mentions 'columns of
                          soldiers five abreast' has in view 'the familial and
                          perhaps almost sexual closeness that is an aspect of
                          the rigours of military life together'. Of course,
                          this person is reading more into the word 'abreast'
                          than a native speaker would. There are plenty of
                          words and expressions that we use as part of set
                          phrases in which we are essentially unconscious of the
                          word's meaning independent of that context. (What does
                          a parkway have to do with parks or parking?)

                          > This one misses the point entirely:
                          > (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom
                          > Jesus loved, was sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter
                          > motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                          > is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to
                          > Jesus side and asked, "Who is it Lord.
                          >
                          >
                          Again, it misses the point only if the words 'in the
                          bosom of' were not a set expression. The linguistic
                          evidence (in particular its use with more than one
                          person as the object) suggests that it was precisely
                          that - a set phrase, an expression, an idiom. The
                          point is then not about Jesus' bosom in and of itself,
                          but of the sitting next to, in a place of honor
                          alongside. This, at any rate, I take to be the point
                          in all 3 Biblical occurrences.

                          Looking forward to discussing this further,

                          James McGrath







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                        • James McGrath
                          John, Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due to the difference between the modern of way of reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
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                            John,

                            Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due
                            to the difference between the 'modern' of way of
                            reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                            meal on what we would call 'Passover Eve' (i.e. the
                            day before Passover, after sundown) would in fact have
                            been part of Passover day according to Jewish
                            reckoning.

                            Could this tie John together with Paul? If the
                            Passover lambs were slain 'on the Eve of the
                            Passover', then Paul may well have been aware of the
                            same dating for Jesus' death as John suggests and as
                            the rabbinic literature records. Would it then be
                            conceivable that Mark could have been preserving a
                            traditional association with Passover without having
                            the same Jewish background to understand the
                            chronology of the events linked to Passover?

                            Thank you for helping shed another glimmer of light on
                            a perplexing issue!

                            Best wishes,

                            James McGrath







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                          • John Lupia
                            To James McGrath You re very welcome James. Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I explained about Passover Eve. This was
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
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                              To James McGrath

                              You're very welcome James.

                              Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I
                              explained about Passover Eve. This was their way of expressing this
                              according to the cultural idiom.

                              Cordially in Christ,
                              John
                              <><

                              John N. Lupia
                              501 North Avenue B-1
                              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                              JLupia2@...
                              <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                              "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                              . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                              they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                              _______________________________________________________
                              Send a cool gift with your E-Card
                              http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
                            • Yuri Kuchinsky
                              ... recorded history have held this view of John s chronology and used leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
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                                Steve Puluka wrote:

                                >> I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest
                                recorded history have held this view of John's chronology and used
                                leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason. <<

                                And on Sat Jul 7, 2001, John Lupia replied in,

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1770

                                >> The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II
                                concelebrated this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the
                                eucharistic using this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition. <<

                                John,

                                It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel. The differences with the
                                Synoptic chronology have never been resolved satisfactorily.

                                True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                                liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.
                                But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                not be minimised. In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                partaking of the Passover lamb.

                                Best wishes,

                                Yuri.

                                Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                                It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
                                to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
                              • John Lupia
                                ... I assume you mean St. John s Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14. Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
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                                  Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                  >It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel.


                                  I assume you mean St. John's Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14.
                                  Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                                  (Last Supper) was celebrated on Thursday Nisan 13.

                                  >The differences with the Synoptic chronology have never been resolved
                                  >satisfactorily.

                                  This is only a problem with those researches that have not, IMHO, properly
                                  understood the chronology of the Synoptic tradition having a conformity and
                                  consistency with St. John. This is unfortunate and indeed creates confusion
                                  and division. However if you examine the Synoptics you will find that they
                                  all agree with St. John and the Last Supper fell on Thursday Nisan 13, the
                                  Pesach Eve Seder. This understanding forms the basis of the teaching found
                                  in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1333 "Faithful to the Lord's
                                  command the Church continues to do so, in his memory until his glorious
                                  return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread . . ." "He
                                  took the cup filled with wine . . .'. Note that the Last Supper is the
                                  "eve" of Jesus' Passion which fell on Passover as stated in 1096 "For
                                  Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and resurrection of
                                  Christ". Now since the Catholic Church officially teaches Christ was
                                  crucified on Passover (Friday Nisan 14), and all four Gospels relate how the
                                  Last Supper was the previous evening it only stands to logic and reason that
                                  it was on Thursday Nisan 13 "the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder". Even if one were
                                  to find alternate interpretations they would still have to agree that this
                                  above chronology as I understand it and as held by the Catholic Church is
                                  indeed possible. So, if it is possible why look for disconcordance where
                                  there is none?


                                  >True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                                  >liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.

                                  >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                  >not be minimised.


                                  The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect and
                                  is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent development. I
                                  suggest you research this issue. I think what you are confusing is the
                                  different liturgical rites within the Church. The Roman Rite uses
                                  unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all use leaven bread. All
                                  of these are Catholic traditions and conform to the official doctrine on the
                                  Eucharist.


                                  >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                  >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                  >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                  >partaking of the Passover lamb.


                                  Please elaborate on this.


                                  Cordially in Christ,
                                  John
                                  <><

                                  John N. Lupia
                                  501 North Avenue B-1
                                  Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                                  JLupia2@...
                                  <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                                  "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                                  . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                                  they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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                                • Yuri Kuchinsky
                                  ... Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according to the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 11, 2001
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                                    On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
                                    > Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                    > >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                    > >not be minimised.
                                    >
                                    > The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect
                                    > and is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent
                                    > development. I suggest you research this issue. I think what you are
                                    > confusing is the different liturgical rites within the Church. The
                                    > Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all
                                    > use leaven bread. All of these are Catholic traditions and conform to
                                    > the official doctrine on the Eucharist.

                                    Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is
                                    already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according
                                    to the Synoptic chronology, Jesus eats the Passover meal.

                                    As you correctly point out, the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas
                                    numerous Oriental Rites use leavened bread. Why this difference? In my
                                    view, the difference arose because the Oriental Rites seem to assume that
                                    the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

                                    > >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                    > >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                    > >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                    > >partaking of the Passover lamb.
                                    >
                                    > Please elaborate on this.

                                    See above.

                                    As to your question about the genealogies, these are two extended passages
                                    from Mt and Lk that, to my mind, give clear evidence of this material
                                    being later than AD 50. (Although, this subject is probably off-topic on
                                    John_Lit-L.)

                                    Best regards,

                                    Yuri.

                                    Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                                    Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
                                    it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
                                  • Thomas W Butler
                                    Dear Steve, Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message. Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically identified in
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                      Dear Steve,
                                      Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message.
                                      Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically
                                      identified in the FG. You note, however, that the symbols that
                                      are clearly associated with it DO appear in the text. I submit that
                                      the symbolism is so consistent and clear that the writer(s) were
                                      assuming that the readers were already familiar with the tradition
                                      and would get the point. The stories of the annointing and the
                                      footwashing in chapters 12 and 13 are clearly set within the context
                                      of the last supper, even though the FG does not describe that meal
                                      in detail.

                                      Yours in Christ's service,
                                      Tom Butler

                                      On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
                                      writes:
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
                                      > > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
                                      > > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
                                      > > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
                                      > > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
                                      > > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
                                      > > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
                                      > > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
                                      > > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
                                      > > of the Passover.
                                      > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > Dear Thomas,
                                      >
                                      > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's
                                      > narrative on
                                      > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                                      > There
                                      > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I
                                      > see that
                                      > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                                      > moved
                                      > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for
                                      > example.
                                      >
                                      > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that
                                      > meal that
                                      > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                                      >
                                      > Steve Puluka
                                      > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
                                      > Mckees Rocks PA
                                      >
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