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Re: [John_Lit] Last Supper

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  • Thomas W Butler
    Dear Steve, When viewed from a strictly historical perspective, your conclusion (that the meal that Jesus and his disciples shared on the night in which he was
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 5, 2001
      Dear Steve,
      When viewed from a strictly historical perspective, your
      conclusion (that the meal that Jesus and his disciples shared
      on the night in which he was betrayed was not the passover)
      is well founded, especially in light of the strict adherence to
      liturgical correctness that is still followed in Jewish families
      today.
      However, within the context of the narrative world of the
      Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
      foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
      associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
      on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
      been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
      that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
      in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
      of the Passover.

      Yours in Christ's service,
      Tom Butler

      On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:14:37 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
      writes:
      >
      > > Ross Saunders wrote:
      >
      > > I wonder why we usually equate the meal in John 13 with the
      > > Passover meal and Institution of the Lord's Supper in the synoptics.
      > > Is John 13 the same 'Last Supper' as in the synoptics?
      > -----------------------------
      >
      > Steve Puluka replied:
      >
      > This difference in chronology between the synoptics and John has
      > been seen as the same "meal" since the early liturgies were created
      > in the Church. I am a Cantor and teacher in the Eastern Christian
      > tradition. Our liturgical expressions of this Mystical Supper are
      > taken from the Johannine model while the west took theirs from
      > the synoptic one. Neverless, we all see this event as the same "meal".
      > We use leavened bread, since the meal happened before the
      > ceremony to remove leaven from the house. This difference in
      > bread for the eucharist has been a point of friction at various times
      > over the years.
      >
      > Because of this early historical understanding, and even arguments,
      > we cannot take the approach of trying to harmonize John's account
      > with the synoptic tradition and turn the Johannine account into an
      > "early Passover" meal. The chronology of John is clear. Jesus is
      > the lamb and is slaughtered on Passover. The meal before this is
      > not the Passover meal.
      >
      > Steve Puluka
      > Cantor
      > Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
      > Mckees Rocks PA
    • John Lupia
      John s Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely celebrated among Jews today. It was during this meal that the men wore the kittel in
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 5, 2001
        John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
        celebrated among Jews today. It was during this meal that the men wore the
        kittel in the medieval and moder periods which was a type of shepherd's coat
        a type of full garment tallith that was sleeveless and worn in the first
        century. This garment corresponds to the "garment without seam" in John's
        Gospel.

        Cordially in Christ,
        John
        <><

        John N. Lupia
        501 North Avenue B-1
        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
        JLupia2@...
        <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
        "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
        . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
        they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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      • Steve Puluka
        ... From: Thomas W Butler ... Dear Thomas, I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John s narrative on the night that
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
          > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
          > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
          > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
          > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
          > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
          > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
          > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
          > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
          > of the Passover.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------
          Dear Thomas,

          I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
          the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
          is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see that
          the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
          to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.

          I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal that
          we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.

          Steve Puluka
          Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
          Mckees Rocks PA
        • Steve Puluka
          ... From: John Lupia ... Dear John, I disagree. John s narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring on Friday. There is no
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
            > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
            > celebrated among Jews today.
            -------------------------------------------------------
            Dear John,

            I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice occurring
            on Friday. There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
            prior to that sacrifice.

            Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the Lamb
            by John the Baptist at the beginning. Jesus is then condemned to death at
            the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
            When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
            transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
            think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
            John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could NOT
            be the Passover meal in John's chronology.

            I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
            history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread as
            our Eucharist for this reason. I don't think that we have to harmonize
            John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making their
            own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points and
            included in the scriptural canons of the Church.

            Steve Puluka
            Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
            Mckees Rocks PA
          • John Lupia
            On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com ... occurring ... Nobody is arguing against this. ... It is called the Pesach Eve
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
              On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:11:06 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              wrote:

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "John Lupia" <JLupia2@...>
              > > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach Eve Seder, still widely
              > > celebrated among Jews today.
              > -------------------------------------------------------
              Steve Puluka wrote:
              >
              > I disagree. John's narrative clearly has the Passover sacrifice
              occurring
              > on Friday.


              Nobody is arguing against this.


              >There is no reasonable explanation for having the Passover meal
              > prior to that sacrifice.


              It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented in Jewish literature, and
              stems from ancient tradition. It is not the Passover meal proper, but one
              the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it up.

              > Further, in the symbolism of John's Gospel, Jesus is introduced as the
              Lamb
              > by John the Baptist at the beginning.


              Nobody is arguing against this point either.


              Jesus is then condemned to death at
              > the same time that the Paschal lambs are being sacrificed in the temple.
              > When the Passover happens on the Sabbath, the sacrifice of the lambs is
              > transferred from sundown to noon, as prescribed in the Mishnah. I don't
              > think this timing is an accident, but part of the literary structure of
              > John's Gospel. Therefore, the meal the evening before this trial could
              NOT
              > be the Passover meal in John's chronology.


              Nobody is arguing against this view either. I only pointed out a tradition
              you seem to be unaware of called the Pesach Eve Seder. This is the
              preliminary meal the evening prior to the Passover, still very solemn and
              sacred.


              >
              > I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest recorded
              > history have held this view of John's chronology and used leavened bread
              as
              > our Eucharist for this reason.


              The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II concelebrated
              this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the eucharistic using
              this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition.

              >I don't think that we have to harmonize
              > John's timeline to the Synoptic on this point. Each story is making
              their
              > own theological points. And both ended up being accepted as valid points
              and
              > included in the scriptural canons of the Church.


              I do not see where the Gospels are ever disconcordant on any issue of faith
              and morals.

              Cordially in Christ,
              John
              <><

              John N. Lupia
              501 North Avenue B-1
              Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
              JLupia2@...
              <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
              "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
              . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
              they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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            • John Lupia
              On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com wrote: Steve Puluka wrote:, ... There ... that ... moved ... that ... I refer you to
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 7, 2001
                On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400, johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                wrote:


                Steve Puluka wrote:,
                >
                > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's narrative on
                > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                There
                > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I see
                that
                > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                moved
                > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for example.
                >
                > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that meal
                that
                > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                >


                I refer you to Joh 13,2,4 the term DEIPNON "supper or banquet" is used to
                describe the context of the longest narrative in the entire NT (Joh
                13,1-17-26 = 5 chapters (23.8%)155 verses (17.39%); 2,822 words (17.81%);
                12,381 letters (17.14%)). Even from a papyrological perspective if we
                based a codex manuscript format on that of the specimen of P52 with an
                average of 554 letters to a page the narrative would span 22.34 pages or 11
                1/3 folio leaves. The enormous size of the narrative alone should have been
                sufficient enough evidence for even the humblest reader to realize that
                something extraordinary was taking place here within the context of DEIPNON.



                NOTE:

                Percentages in parentheses reflects that portion of the overall Johannine
                Gospel dedicated to the Last Supper Narrative. The statiscal measurements
                includes Joh 5,4 and Joh 7,53-8,11, which this editor considers original.)


                Cordially in Christ,
                John
                <><


                John N. Lupia
                501 North Avenue B-1
                Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                JLupia2@...
                <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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              • James McGrath
                Steve Puluka wrote:, ... Although you are right to stress that the meal is in no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved disciple _reclining_ next to
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                  Steve Puluka wrote:,
                  >
                  > I would quibble with this interpretation. In
                  > reading John's narrative on the night that Jesus was

                  > betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL. There
                  > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his
                  > hand. Rather, I see that the Eucharistic symbolism
                  > we find in the synoptic tradition has been moved
                  > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and
                  > the fish for example.
                  >
                  > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic
                  > picture of that meal that we transfer the image to
                  > John's story, when it is not there.
                  >
                  Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
                  no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
                  disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
                  surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
                  taking place.

                  --- John Lupia <JLupia2@...> wrote:
                  > John's Gospel has the Last Supper as the Pesach
                  > Eve Seder, still widely
                  > celebrated among Jews today.
                  > [snip]
                  > It is called the Pesach Eve Seder, well documented
                  > in Jewish literature, and
                  > stems from ancient tradition. It is not the
                  > Passover meal proper, but one
                  > the takes place the evening prior to it. Look it
                  > up.
                  >
                  I think all of us would be most grateful if you could
                  give us some indication of where to look it up. It is
                  presumably a rabbinic tradition, but how ancient is
                  it? If it is in the Mishnah or Tosefta that would
                  probably be close enough to John's time for a link to
                  be plausible. If it is only found in the midrashim or
                  talmudim on the other hand, the distance in time would
                  presumably necessitate extreme caution in appealing to
                  the tradition in question to explain John.

                  Please do let us know more about the Pesach Eve Seder
                  when you get the chance.

                  Thanks,

                  James McGrath






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                • Ken Durkin
                  From: James McGrath ... Reclining not simply next to Jesus but on Jesus.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                    From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                    > Although you are right to stress that the meal is in
                    > no way emphasized, the reference to the beloved
                    > disciple _reclining_ next to Jesus (at the table) is
                    > surely an indication that a meal of some sort is
                    > taking place.

                    Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                  • John Lupia
                    To: James McGrath Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature: Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                      To: "James McGrath"
                      Regarding Pesach Eve Seder in Mishnaic and Talmudic Literature:

                      Our understanding of the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder comes largely from the
                      writings of the Mishnaic & Jerusalem Talmud Tractate Pesahim, and the Gospel
                      of John itself.


                      Passover Eve

                      Before the common meal on Passover eve, the day was filled with preperation
                      for the even. A full contingent of priests -- twenty-four divisions instead
                      of the usual one--came early to the Temple. Their first task was the
                      burning of the hametz, "leven," which had been searched for by candlelight
                      in each home the night before and then removed for burning the next morning
                      (Mishnah, Pesahim 1-3). By midday all work stopped. The afternoon was set
                      aside for the slaughtering of the lamb. The offering of the passover
                      sacrifice at the Temple began about 3:00pm. (Pesahim 5:1) and was conducted
                      in three massive shifts. When the temple courts was filled with the first
                      group of offerers, the gates of the court were closed. The rams horn was
                      sounded and the sacrifice began (Pesahim5:5). Each Jew slaughtered his own
                      lamb. The priests stood in two rows, one holding a gold basins and the
                      other silver. After the blood was drained into the basin, it was tossed
                      against the base of the altar (Pesahim 5:6). While the offerings were going
                      on, the Levites sang the Hallel (Pss 113-118). Each lamb was then skinned
                      and its fat with kidneys removerd for burning on the alter (Pesahim 5:9-10;
                      cf. Lev 3:3-5). Before leaving the temple each offerer slung his lamb --
                      wrapped in its own hide over his shoulder (Babylonian Talmud, Peshahim 65b).
                      He then departed with his company to prepare the passover meal.
                      Immediately, the next division of offerers filed into the Temple court and
                      the ritual was repeated. (cf. also Pesahim 66a & Jerusalem Talmud Pesahim
                      6:1)


                      Mishnah (Pesahim 4:1) "it is a positive commandment for each Jew to drink
                      four cups of wine on Passover eve, and even the poorest Jew must not receive
                      less than four cups of wine." Number four, four cups, have special
                      significance, given in many variations: four cups of wine, four questions,
                      four sons, four special symbolic foods to be eaten - the paschal sacrifice,
                      the matza, the bitter herb and the haroset.

                      For additional bibliographic references see:

                      Wolf Heidenheim, Passover Eve (Roedelheim, 1822-23)

                      Harold Hoehner, “Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ,” Zondervan,
                      1977).

                      Rylands Hebrew MS 6 (Catalonian c. 1350) A Haggadah, or service book used
                      at the Seder on Passover eve.

                      Baruch Bokser, Origins of the Seder, (Univ. of Calif. Press) [o.p.]

                      E. Daniel Goldschmidt, The Passover Haggadah: Its Sources and History (Mosad
                      Bialik: Jerusalem, 1977) & additional readings tba; primary rabbinic
                      sources.

                      Yosef Hayim, Haggadah and history : a panorama in facsimile of five
                      centuries of the printed Haggadah from the collections of Harvard University
                      and the Jewish Theological Seminary of America [Philadelphia : Jewish
                      Publication Society of America, 1976].

                      Joseph Tabory, "The Passover eve ceremony : an historical survey " Immanuel
                      No 12 (Spr 1981), p. 32-43.

                      S. Stein, "The Influence of Symposia Literature on the Literary Form of the
                      Pesach Haggadah" JJS 8 (1957), pp. 13-44

                      Lawrence Hoffman, "A Symbol of Salvation in the Passover Seder" Passover and
                      Easter: The Symbolic Structuing of Sacred Seasons [Two Liturgical
                      Traditions, vol. 6] Notre Dame, Ind. Notre Dame Unversity Press, 1999

                      Jakob J. Petuchowski, "Do this in remembrance of me' (1 Cor 11:24)" Journal
                      of Biblical Literature 76 (D 1957), p. 293-298.

                      Baruch M Bokser, "Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder?" Bible Review 3,2
                      (1987) 24-33.

                      Giuseppe Ghiberti," Jesus’ Passover Meal "SIDIC XXX:1 [1997], 8 12.


                      Cordially in Christ,
                      John
                      <><


                      John N. Lupia
                      501 North Avenue B-1
                      Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                      JLupia2@...
                      <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                      "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                      . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                      they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





                      _______________________________________________________
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                    • James McGrath
                      ... Actually, I think that the phrase in the bosom of is, like the old English word abreast , a way of saying next to , alongside . That certainly seems
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                        --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                        >
                        Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                        is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                        saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                        be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                        occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                        papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                        Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                        the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                        say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                        the other person is lying across them, then the
                        expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)

                        James McGrath







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                      • Ken Durkin
                        From: James McGrath ... The closeness is emphasized and the disciple s head falls back while lying on the breast of Jesus to
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                          From: "James McGrath" <jamesfrankmcgrath@...>

                          > --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Reclining not simply "next to" Jesus but "on" Jesus.
                          > >
                          > Actually, I think that the phrase 'in the bosom of'
                          > is, like the old English word 'abreast', a way of
                          > saying 'next to', 'alongside'. That certainly seems to
                          > be the way it is used in Luke and in its two
                          > occurrences in John. Further evidence is found in a
                          > papyrus fragment (and if I'm not mistaken also in the
                          > Apostolic Constitutions) where the phrase occurs 'in
                          > the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob'. Needless to
                          > say, unless the three patriarchs are lying down and
                          > the other person is lying across them, then the
                          > expression must mean something like 'alongside'. :)
                          >
                          > James McGrath

                          The closeness is emphasized and the disciple's head falls back while lying
                          on the breast of Jesus to look at him face to face and ask the question. The
                          reader is aware of the meaning of "in the bosom" as an expression of
                          intimacy between Father and Son from 1:18. Common sense says the expression
                          "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A child lies in the bosom of
                          its mother. The expression means intimacy and here, a close physical
                          intimacy. The Douay and the Authorized are closest to my translation:

                          (Douay 1609) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples,
                          whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him: Who is it of whom
                          he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him,
                          "Lord.

                          (Authorized 1611) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples
                          whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask
                          who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto
                          him, "Lord.

                          This one misses the point entirely:
                          (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was
                          sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                          is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to Jesus side and asked,
                          "Who is it Lord.
                        • James McGrath
                          ... Dear Ken, Common sense tells different things to different people, especially those speaking different languages and living in different cultural contexts.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 8, 2001
                            --- Ken Durkin <ind.fin.choices@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Common sense says the expression
                            > "in the bosom" is more than just "alongside". A
                            > child lies in the bosom of its mother. The
                            > expression means intimacy and here,
                            > a close physical intimacy.
                            >
                            Dear Ken,

                            Common sense tells different things to different
                            people, especially those speaking different languages
                            and living in different cultural contexts. The same
                            common sense you are using in relation to what I take
                            to be a Greek expression, might tell a modern German
                            that an English speaker who mentions 'columns of
                            soldiers five abreast' has in view 'the familial and
                            perhaps almost sexual closeness that is an aspect of
                            the rigours of military life together'. Of course,
                            this person is reading more into the word 'abreast'
                            than a native speaker would. There are plenty of
                            words and expressions that we use as part of set
                            phrases in which we are essentially unconscious of the
                            word's meaning independent of that context. (What does
                            a parkway have to do with parks or parking?)

                            > This one misses the point entirely:
                            > (Good News Bible) One of the disciples, the one whom
                            > Jesus loved, was sitting next to Jesus. Simon Peter
                            > motioned to him and said, "Ask him who he
                            > is talking about." So that disciple moved closer to
                            > Jesus side and asked, "Who is it Lord.
                            >
                            >
                            Again, it misses the point only if the words 'in the
                            bosom of' were not a set expression. The linguistic
                            evidence (in particular its use with more than one
                            person as the object) suggests that it was precisely
                            that - a set phrase, an expression, an idiom. The
                            point is then not about Jesus' bosom in and of itself,
                            but of the sitting next to, in a place of honor
                            alongside. This, at any rate, I take to be the point
                            in all 3 Biblical occurrences.

                            Looking forward to discussing this further,

                            James McGrath







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                          • James McGrath
                            John, Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due to the difference between the modern of way of reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                              John,

                              Thanks for your message. I think my confusion was due
                              to the difference between the 'modern' of way of
                              reckoning days and the traditional Jewish one. The
                              meal on what we would call 'Passover Eve' (i.e. the
                              day before Passover, after sundown) would in fact have
                              been part of Passover day according to Jewish
                              reckoning.

                              Could this tie John together with Paul? If the
                              Passover lambs were slain 'on the Eve of the
                              Passover', then Paul may well have been aware of the
                              same dating for Jesus' death as John suggests and as
                              the rabbinic literature records. Would it then be
                              conceivable that Mark could have been preserving a
                              traditional association with Passover without having
                              the same Jewish background to understand the
                              chronology of the events linked to Passover?

                              Thank you for helping shed another glimmer of light on
                              a perplexing issue!

                              Best wishes,

                              James McGrath







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                            • John Lupia
                              To James McGrath You re very welcome James. Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I explained about Passover Eve. This was
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 9, 2001
                                To James McGrath

                                You're very welcome James.

                                Luke 22,7; Joh 13,1; Matth 26,17; Mark 14,12 all say the same thing as I
                                explained about Passover Eve. This was their way of expressing this
                                according to the cultural idiom.

                                Cordially in Christ,
                                John
                                <><

                                John N. Lupia
                                501 North Avenue B-1
                                Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                                JLupia2@...
                                <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                                "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                                . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                                they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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                              • Yuri Kuchinsky
                                ... recorded history have held this view of John s chronology and used leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                                  Steve Puluka wrote:

                                  >> I would note again, that the Eastern Churches from the earliest
                                  recorded history have held this view of John's chronology and used
                                  leavened bread asour Eucharist for this reason. <<

                                  And on Sat Jul 7, 2001, John Lupia replied in,

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1770

                                  >> The Catholic-Orthodox tradition is Johannine. John Paul II
                                  concelebrated this liturgy in Ukraine a few eeks ago partaking of the
                                  eucharistic using this "matter" and "form". It is OUR tradition. <<

                                  John,

                                  It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel. The differences with the
                                  Synoptic chronology have never been resolved satisfactorily.

                                  True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                                  liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.
                                  But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                  not be minimised. In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                  between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                  same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                  partaking of the Passover lamb.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Yuri.

                                  Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                                  It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
                                  to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
                                • John Lupia
                                  ... I assume you mean St. John s Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14. Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 10, 2001
                                    Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                    >It's clear that Jn is a quartodeciman gospel.


                                    I assume you mean St. John's Gospel represents Passover falling on Nisan 14.
                                    Passover did fall on Friday Nisan 14, which means that the Pesach Eve Seder
                                    (Last Supper) was celebrated on Thursday Nisan 13.

                                    >The differences with the Synoptic chronology have never been resolved
                                    >satisfactorily.

                                    This is only a problem with those researches that have not, IMHO, properly
                                    understood the chronology of the Synoptic tradition having a conformity and
                                    consistency with St. John. This is unfortunate and indeed creates confusion
                                    and division. However if you examine the Synoptics you will find that they
                                    all agree with St. John and the Last Supper fell on Thursday Nisan 13, the
                                    Pesach Eve Seder. This understanding forms the basis of the teaching found
                                    in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1333 "Faithful to the Lord's
                                    command the Church continues to do so, in his memory until his glorious
                                    return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread . . ." "He
                                    took the cup filled with wine . . .'. Note that the Last Supper is the
                                    "eve" of Jesus' Passion which fell on Passover as stated in 1096 "For
                                    Christians, it is the Passover fulfilled in the death and resurrection of
                                    Christ". Now since the Catholic Church officially teaches Christ was
                                    crucified on Passover (Friday Nisan 14), and all four Gospels relate how the
                                    Last Supper was the previous evening it only stands to logic and reason that
                                    it was on Thursday Nisan 13 "the Pesach Eve (Erev) Seder". Even if one were
                                    to find alternate interpretations they would still have to agree that this
                                    above chronology as I understand it and as held by the Catholic Church is
                                    indeed possible. So, if it is possible why look for disconcordance where
                                    there is none?


                                    >True, in recent centuries, Rome has adopted the Eastern Orthodox
                                    >liturgical tradition alongside its own rather different Western tradition.

                                    >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                    >not be minimised.


                                    The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect and
                                    is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent development. I
                                    suggest you research this issue. I think what you are confusing is the
                                    different liturgical rites within the Church. The Roman Rite uses
                                    unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all use leaven bread. All
                                    of these are Catholic traditions and conform to the official doctrine on the
                                    Eucharist.


                                    >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                    >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                    >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                    >partaking of the Passover lamb.


                                    Please elaborate on this.


                                    Cordially in Christ,
                                    John
                                    <><

                                    John N. Lupia
                                    501 North Avenue B-1
                                    Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                                    JLupia2@...
                                    <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ <>< ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><> ~~~ ><>
                                    "during this important time, as the eve of the new millennium approaches . .
                                    . unity among all Christians of the various confessions will increase until
                                    they reach full communion." John Paul II, Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 16





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                                  • Yuri Kuchinsky
                                    ... Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according to the
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 11, 2001
                                      On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, John Lupia wrote:
                                      > Yuri Kushinsky wrote:

                                      > >But, still, the historical differences between these two traditions should
                                      > >not be minimised.
                                      >
                                      > The Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition is Catholic in every respect
                                      > and is part of the Catholic tradition. This is not a recent
                                      > development. I suggest you research this issue. I think what you are
                                      > confusing is the different liturgical rites within the Church. The
                                      > Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas numerous Oriental Rites all
                                      > use leaven bread. All of these are Catholic traditions and conform to
                                      > the official doctrine on the Eucharist.

                                      Well, John, this is the problem as I see it. According to Jn, Jesus is
                                      already arrested before the Passover meal has taken place. But according
                                      to the Synoptic chronology, Jesus eats the Passover meal.

                                      As you correctly point out, the Roman Rite uses unleavened bread, whereas
                                      numerous Oriental Rites use leavened bread. Why this difference? In my
                                      view, the difference arose because the Oriental Rites seem to assume that
                                      the Last Supper was not a Passover meal.

                                      > >In particular there seems to be a certain contradiction
                                      > >between Jesus, according to Jn, being the Passover Lamb, killed at the
                                      > >same hour when Passover lambs were sacrificed in Jerusalem, and Jesus
                                      > >partaking of the Passover lamb.
                                      >
                                      > Please elaborate on this.

                                      See above.

                                      As to your question about the genealogies, these are two extended passages
                                      from Mt and Lk that, to my mind, give clear evidence of this material
                                      being later than AD 50. (Although, this subject is probably off-topic on
                                      John_Lit-L.)

                                      Best regards,

                                      Yuri.

                                      Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                                      Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
                                      it is time to reform -=O=- Mark Twain
                                    • Thomas W Butler
                                      Dear Steve, Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message. Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically identified in
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Aug 9, 2001
                                        Dear Steve,
                                        Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply to your last message.
                                        Your point is well taken that the Last Supper is not specifically
                                        identified in the FG. You note, however, that the symbols that
                                        are clearly associated with it DO appear in the text. I submit that
                                        the symbolism is so consistent and clear that the writer(s) were
                                        assuming that the readers were already familiar with the tradition
                                        and would get the point. The stories of the annointing and the
                                        footwashing in chapters 12 and 13 are clearly set within the context
                                        of the last supper, even though the FG does not describe that meal
                                        in detail.

                                        Yours in Christ's service,
                                        Tom Butler

                                        On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:01:12 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
                                        writes:
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "Thomas W Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
                                        > > However, within the context of the narrative world of the
                                        > > Gospel of John, the symbolic meaning that is the theological
                                        > > foundation for the Passover meal can be found in the material
                                        > > associated with the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples
                                        > > on the night in which he was betrayed. The meal may not have
                                        > > been the Passover, strictly interpreted, but the meanings of
                                        > > that meal and all that Jesus is reported to have communicated
                                        > > in that context is a re-constitution of the Mosaic theology
                                        > > of the Passover.
                                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > Dear Thomas,
                                        >
                                        > I would quibble with this interpretation. In reading John's
                                        > narrative on
                                        > the night that Jesus was betrayed I am struck by the LACK OF A MEAL.
                                        > There
                                        > is no food mentioned, other than Judas tipping his hand. Rather, I
                                        > see that
                                        > the Eucharistic symbolism we find in the synoptic tradition has been
                                        > moved
                                        > to points earlier in John's Gospel, the bread and the fish for
                                        > example.
                                        >
                                        > I think that we are so familiar with the synoptic picture of that
                                        > meal that
                                        > we transfer the image to John's story, when it is not there.
                                        >
                                        > Steve Puluka
                                        > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
                                        > Mckees Rocks PA
                                        >
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