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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Gaston's reference to Samaritan LXX

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  • odell mcguire
    Sorry to be so late..spent 2 wks at bch & came bak to Comp problems. Nov Test Suppl etc *IS* the title of Gaston s book according to the Cataloguers; but it is
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 31, 1903
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      Sorry to be so late..spent 2 wks at bch & came bak to Comp problems.

      Nov Test Suppl etc *IS* the title of Gaston's book according to the Cataloguers;
      but it is a Supplement and not, in one sense, technically part of the Series.
      Gaston's title: *No Stone Upon Another*, is treated as a subtitle, I think. At
      anyratate our IL Librarian had no trouble finding a copy for loan and yours
      shouldn't either.
      --
      Best wishes, Odell

      Odell McGuire
      omcguire@...
      Prof. Geology Em., W&L
      Lexington, VA
    • Thomas W Butler
      Dear Odell, Thank you for responding to my inquirey. I will, indeed, look up the reference to Gaston s article in Nov. Test. Suppl. 23. I assume that the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 5, 2001
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        Dear Odell,
        Thank you for responding to my inquirey. I will, indeed, look up
        the reference to Gaston's article in Nov. Test. Suppl. 23. I assume
        that the book you mentioned is the source of his article. Do you
        have the title of his book? (It will be some time before I can make
        the trip to a seminary library large enough to have the periodical
        in your reference.)
        This interests me because I have written a book based on the
        theory that the writer(s) of the Gospel of John used the Septuagint
        as a source book for symbolic language (signs). They seem to have
        focused primarily upon the Pentateuch. Given Brown's contention
        that there may have been a strong contingent of Samaritans in the
        Johannine community, the existence of a Samaritan version of the
        Pentateuch is intriguing to me. This I must see, if in fact it exists.

        Yours in Christ's service,
        Dr. Tom Butler
        United Methodist Pastor
        and student of the Gospel of John

        On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:49:41 +0000 odell mcguire <omcguire@...>
        writes:
        >
        > Thomas (Tom) Butler wrote:
        >
        > > Odell,
        > > I lurk on the Johannine Literature list. Reading over some old
        > > contributions to that list, I came across the following reference
        > > made by you, which has piqued my interest.
        > > Is there a "Samaritan version of the LXX?" I'm only aware of
        > > the Septuagint as a single, widely distributed Greek version of the
        > > Hebrew scriptures. Is your reference to Gaston to indicate that
        > > Gaston has a different version of the Septuagint, one used by the
        > > Samaritans, than was used by other Jews of the diaspora?
        > >
        > > Thanks for your attention,
        > > Tom Butler
        >
        > I don't know any more about this than I let on. Except to say that
        > I'm pretty sure I got the Gaston reference right and almost certain
        > he wrote of a Samaritan version underlying (Luke's) Stephen's
        > quotes and paraphrases from the Pentateuch. I also had a distinct
        > impression that Gaston was comparing Stephen's Greek with that
        > of the Samaritan exemplar. I was as surprised as you by this, and
        > am pretty sure I checked it out as far as possible.
        > But LXX is undoubtedly my designation, not Gastons, and I misspoke.
        > As you doubtless know, the Samaritans did not share most of the
        > Hebrew bible beyond the Pentateuch.
        >
        > . . .
        > Hope this helps. Check out Gaston's book. It may be all axe grinding
        > on his part. He has a preposterously big thing about the Samaritan
        > influence on HJ's quarrel with the temple establishment.
        >
        > > ------Original Message------
        > > From: odell mcguire <omcguire@...>
        > > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: April 24, 2001 10:33:53 AM GMT
        > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] More data on Samaritan Greeks
        > >
        > > Dear George:
        > > . . .
        > >
        > > Have you considered the possibility that Philip might have been a
        > > Greek speaking Samaritan? His home, his ministry, his encounters
        > > with Simon Magus were in Samaria. And I have the idea, probably
        > > from Gaston (*see below), that the Pentateuch verses quoted in
        > > Stephen's swan song are from the Samaritan version of LXX.
        > >
        > > *L. Gaston, *No Stone on Another, etc* Nov Test Suppl. 23,
        > > Leiden 1970
        > >
        > > Best wishes, Odell
        > >
        > > Odell McGuire
        > > omcguire@...
        > > Prof. Geology Em., W&L
        > > Lexington, VA
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Dear Tom, Yes, indeed, there s clearly a different Samaritan version of the Pentateuch that s been known in ancient times, as well as more widely since
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 6, 2001
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          On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Thomas W Butler wrote:

          > Dear Odell,
          > Thank you for responding to my inquirey. I will, indeed, look up
          > the reference to Gaston's article in Nov. Test. Suppl. 23. I assume
          > that the book you mentioned is the source of his article. Do you
          > have the title of his book? (It will be some time before I can make
          > the trip to a seminary library large enough to have the periodical
          > in your reference.)
          > This interests me because I have written a book based on the
          > theory that the writer(s) of the Gospel of John used the Septuagint as
          > a source book for symbolic language (signs). They seem to have
          > focused primarily upon the Pentateuch. Given Brown's contention that
          > there may have been a strong contingent of Samaritans in the Johannine
          > community, the existence of a Samaritan version of the Pentateuch is
          > intriguing to me. This I must see, if in fact it exists.

          Dear Tom,

          Yes, indeed, there's clearly a different Samaritan version of the
          Pentateuch that's been known in ancient times, as well as more widely
          since 17c. It tends to agree quite often with the Septuagint. Here's some
          further information for you,

          http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/samaritanpentateuch.html

          ... the Pentateuch was preserved
          among the Samaritans, although they
          never called it by this name, but always
          "the Law," which they read as one book.
          The division into five books, as we now
          have it, however, was adopted by the
          Samaritans, as it was by the Jews, in all
          their priests' copies of "the Law," for the
          sake of convenience. This was the only
          portion of the Old Testament which was
          accepted by the Samaritans as of divine
          authority.

          The form of the letters in the manuscript
          copies of the Samaritan Pentateuch is
          different from that of the Hebrew copies,
          and is probably the same as that which
          was in general use before the Captivity.
          There are other peculiarities in the writing
          which need not here be specified.

          There are important differences between
          the Hebrew and the Samaritan copies of
          the Pentateuch in the readings of many
          sentences. In about two thousand
          instances in which the Samaritan and the
          Jewish texts differ, the LXX. agrees with
          the former. The New Testament also,
          when quoting from the Old Testament,
          agrees as a rule with the Samaritan text,
          where that differs from the Jewish. Thus
          Ex. 12:40 in the Samaritan reads, "Now
          the sojourning of the children of Israel and
          of their fathers which they had dwelt in the
          land of Canaan and in Egypt was four
          hundred and thirty years" (compare Gal.
          3:17). It may be noted that the LXX. has
          the same reading of this text.

          The old CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA also has an informative article about this,

          CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Samaritan Language and Literature
          http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13417a.htm

          Best wishes,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          What are the things of long ago? Tell us, that we may
          reflect on them, and know their outcome; or declare
          to us the things to come -=O=- Isaiah 41:22
        • Steve Puluka
          ... From: Dr. Tom Butler ... Dr. Butler, The Samaritan Pentateuch is in Hebrew not Greek. And it is only the Pentateuch not the entire
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 7, 2001
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Dr. Tom Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
            > This interests me because I have written a book based on the
            > theory that the writer(s) of the Gospel of John used the Septuagint
            > as a source book for symbolic language (signs). They seem to have
            > focused primarily upon the Pentateuch. Given Brown's contention
            > that there may have been a strong contingent of Samaritans in the
            > Johannine community, the existence of a Samaritan version of the
            > Pentateuch is intriguing to me. This I must see, if in fact it exists.

            Dr. Butler,

            The Samaritan Pentateuch is in Hebrew not Greek. And it is only the
            Pentateuch not the entire Tanak. The text has been edited to make Mount
            Gerazim the holy mountain rather than zion and there are linguistic
            differences of interest to scholars as well (most notably the use of waw).
            This is a different text with a different transmission history than the
            Septuagint.

            For a good general history of the Septuagint and it's transmission see
            Jellicoe's "The Septuagint in Modern Study". If your library does not have
            this I'm sure they can get it on interlibrary loan. I'm not sure that from
            the viewpoint of symbols there is much difference between the Septuagint and
            the Masoretic Text. Do you mean symbols or are you referring to the
            specific use of language in the symbolic passages?

            Steve Puluka
            Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
            Mckees Rocks PA
          • Thomas W Butler
            Steve, Thank you for your messages re: the Samaritan version of the LXX. My theory is that the exact language regarding the temple, its artifacts, the
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 9, 2001
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              Steve,

              Thank you for your messages re: the Samaritan version of the LXX.

              My theory is that the exact language regarding the temple, its artifacts,
              the festivals celebrated within it and material relating to the priests
              who
              served in it, I mean the precise Greek words used there, was used as
              a source document from which the author(s) of the Fourth Gospel
              composed their most extraordinary scripture.

              I am a bit disappointed that the Samaritan LXX is only found in
              Hebrew, because my theory is based on the idea that the Greek
              version of the LXX was the one most widely available to the wide-
              spread and growing first century Christian community, primarily to
              groups forming around communities of Jews of the diaspora, which
              were likely to have been the document's target audience. The fact
              that it is written in Hebrew doesn't altogether refute my theory,
              because the limitation of symbolic language in the Fourth Gospel to
              signs found only in the Pentateuch is one that could well have been
              influenced by the Samaritan scholars involved in the Fourth Gospel's
              composition.

              I will, indeed, seek out the material that you have suggested, though
              I am not a scholar of Hebrew. (Maybe I should become one).

              Again, thank you so much for your assistance on this.

              Yours in Christ's service,
              Dr. Tom Butler
              Author of : Let Her Keep It

              On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:39:40 -0400 "Steve Puluka" <spuluka@...>
              writes:
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Dr. Tom Butler" <butlerfam5@...>
              > > This interests me because I have written a book based on the
              > > theory that the writer(s) of the Gospel of John used the
              > Septuagint
              > > as a source book for symbolic language (signs). They seem to
              > have
              > > focused primarily upon the Pentateuch. Given Brown's contention
              > > that there may have been a strong contingent of Samaritans in the
              > > Johannine community, the existence of a Samaritan version of the
              > > Pentateuch is intriguing to me. This I must see, if in fact it
              > exists.
              >
              > Dr. Butler,
              >
              > The Samaritan Pentateuch is in Hebrew not Greek. And it is only
              > the
              > Pentateuch not the entire Tanak. The text has been edited to make
              > Mount
              > Gerazim the holy mountain rather than zion and there are linguistic
              > differences of interest to scholars as well (most notably the use of
              > waw).
              > This is a different text with a different transmission history than
              > the
              > Septuagint.
              >
              > For a good general history of the Septuagint and it's transmission
              > see
              > Jellicoe's "The Septuagint in Modern Study". If your library does
              > not have
              > this I'm sure they can get it on interlibrary loan. I'm not sure
              > that from
              > the viewpoint of symbols there is much difference between the
              > Septuagint and
              > the Masoretic Text. Do you mean symbols or are you referring to
              > the
              > specific use of language in the symbolic passages?
              >
              > Steve Puluka
              > Cantor Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church
              > Mckees Rocks PA
              >
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