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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Author, author

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  • butlerfam5@juno.com
    ... There is even more reason to hide the identity of the BD if, in fact, that person was a woman. Yours in Christ, Tom Butler
    Message 1 of 7 , May 22 3:37 PM
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      John Staton suggested:
      > . . . The problem for the suggestion that it is John, the Son
      > of Zebedee, is "why not name him outright?" He would be
      > an acknowledged authority. But if the BD is John the Elder,
      > some people might say "who?" Hence the need to emphasize
      > the trustworthiness of the witness and his closeness to Jesus,
      > and the coyness about naming him.

      There is even more reason to hide the identity of the BD if, in
      fact, that person was a woman.

      Yours in Christ,
      Tom Butler
    • jestaton@zoom.co.uk
      ... Absolutely! But I need a little more convincing. I can buy a woman apostle, and even Priscilla as author of Hebrews, but I would need a little more
      Message 2 of 7 , May 23 2:42 PM
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        --- In johannine_literature@y..., butlerfam5@j... wrote:
        >
        > John Staton suggested:
        > > . . . The problem for the suggestion that it is John, the Son
        > > of Zebedee, is "why not name him outright?" He would be
        > > an acknowledged authority. But if the BD is John the Elder,
        > > some people might say "who?" Hence the need to emphasize
        > > the trustworthiness of the witness and his closeness to Jesus,
        > > and the coyness about naming him.
        >
        > There is even more reason to hide the identity of the BD if, in
        > fact, that person was a woman.


        Absolutely! But I need a little more convincing. I can buy a woman
        apostle, and even Priscilla as author of Hebrews, but I would need a
        little more persuasion as regards the BD

        Yours in Christ

        JOHN E STATON
        www.jestaton.org
        jestaton@...
      • Thomas (Tom) Butler
        ... John, The candidate I nominate is Mary of Bethany. See my book, Let Her Keep It: Jesus Ordination of Mary of Bethany - A New Approach to the Study of the
        Message 3 of 7 , May 24 10:32 AM
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          >>>John Staton suggested:
          >>> . . . The problem for the suggestion that it is John, the Son
          >>> of Zebedee, is "why not name him outright?" He would be
          >>> an acknowledged authority. But if the BD is John the Elder,
          >>> some people might say "who?" Hence the need to emphasize
          >>> the trustworthiness of the witness and his closeness toJesus,
          >>> and the coyness about naming him.

          >> Tom Butler replied:
          >> There is even more reason to hide the identity of the BD if, >> in fact, that person was a woman.

          > John Staton responded:
          > Absolutely! But I need a little more convincing. I can buy a > woman apostle, and even Priscilla as author of Hebrews, but I > would need a little more persuasion as regards the BD

          John,
          The candidate I nominate is Mary of Bethany. See my book,
          Let Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany - A New Approach to the Study of the Gospel of John Through Its Use of Mosaic Oracles (Quantum Leap, 1998).

          Briefly, I have followed the approach of Raymond Brown (Community of the Beloved Disciple), extending his criteria for identifying the BD to Mary of Bethany. (He in fact names Mary and Martha of Bethany as well as Lazarus, their brother, as candidates, but only considers Lazarus.)

          The focus of my study is what I call the Ordination Trilogy of stories found in John 11, 12 and 13: the Raising of Lazarus, the Anointing of the Feet of Jesus and the Washing of the Feet of the Disciples by Jesus.

          The key to my argument is that in anointing the feet of Jesus, Mary of Bethany fulfills the semeiotic role of Moses, consecrating the altar of the temple (the feet of Jesus where she worships). The anointing oil ends up on her head, and when Judas objects to her ritual, Jesus defends her with the words, "Let her keep it." He is setting her apart for the purpose of keeping (maintaining) the tradition of his death, a role that was entrusted to first century bishops.

          The Fourth Gospel is the product of a process of reflection upon the Jesus tradition begun by the leader (overseer / bishop) of a community of disciples whom Jesus charged with that task: Mary of Bethany.

          Of course, this is a simplified and summarized version of my work. I would be pleased to discuss it on or off list in more detail.

          Yours in Christ,
          Tom Butler
        • jestaton@zoom.co.uk
          ... I would be pleased to discuss it on or off list in more detail. I will try and get hold of your book, but I doubt if I could enter into any meaningful
          Message 4 of 7 , May 24 3:28 PM
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            --- In johannine_literature@y..., "Thomas (Tom) Butler"
            <butlerfam5@j...> wrote:
            >
            > Of course, this is a simplified and summarized version of my work.
            I would be pleased to discuss it on or off list in more detail.

            I will try and get hold of your book, but I doubt if I could enter
            into any meaningful discussion of this theory until I have read it. I
            read Raymond Brown's book on the Johannine Community, and found it
            unnecessarily complicated and not entirely convincing, though his
            commentary is very insightful.

            God bless

            JOHN E STATON
            www.jestaton.org
            jestaton@...
          • Maluflen@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/23/2001 11:25:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jestaton@zoom.co.uk writes:
            Message 5 of 7 , May 24 6:57 PM
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              In a message dated 5/23/2001 11:25:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              jestaton@... writes:

              << By the way, I want to be clear that neither Hengel nor I confuse this
              figure with the son of Zebedee. Hengel believes the latter to have
              been martyred with his brother, James, in AD62. >>


              Aren't you (and/or he) mixing up your Jameses here? Wasn't the son-of-Zebedee
              James martyred much earlier than this, perhaps around AD 42 (as reported in
              Acts 12:2)?

              Leonard Maluf
            • Maluflen@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/24/2001 1:36:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, butlerfam5@juno.com writes:
              Message 6 of 7 , May 24 7:15 PM
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                In a message dated 5/24/2001 1:36:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                butlerfam5@... writes:

                << The Fourth Gospel is the product of a process of reflection upon the Jesus
                tradition begun by the leader (overseer / bishop) of a community of disciples
                whom Jesus charged with that task: Mary of Bethany.

                Of course, this is a simplified and summarized version of my work. I would
                be pleased to discuss it on or off list in more detail. >>


                I suppose I would be a good test-subject for the cogency of your argument,
                because I would bring to the exercise of reading your book an extreme
                skepticism regarding your conclusions. I think it is much more likely that
                the BD was a man than a woman; and in the hypothesis that she was a woman,
                very much more likely that she was not a bishop than that she was. I know of
                no evidence for female bishops in first century Christianity. What little of
                your argument you were able to divulge within the space of an email message
                sounded far-fetched to me.

                Leonard Maluf
              • jestaton@zoom.co.uk
                ... of-Zebedee ... reported in ... You re dead right! James, brother of Jesus was martyred in AD62. So that means Hengel would be supposing the two brothers
                Message 7 of 7 , May 25 1:21 PM
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                  --- In johannine_literature@y..., Maluflen@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > Aren't you (and/or he) mixing up your Jameses here? Wasn't the son-
                  of-Zebedee
                  > James martyred much earlier than this, perhaps around AD 42 (as
                  reported in
                  > Acts 12:2)?

                  You're dead right! James, brother of Jesus was martyred in AD62. So
                  that means Hengel would be supposing the two brothers were martyred
                  in the 40's. I was trying to reply from memory without looking things
                  up, due to lack of time. Show how the ancients could do it, though!

                  Best Wishes

                  JOHN E STATON
                  www.jestaton.org
                  jestaton@...
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