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[John_Lit] Re: John 3.3-5

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  • Judith Kowalski
    N & RJ Hanscamp wrote:Is anyone a starter for this - pure speculation, though possibly some theological grist? Is there any special reason why the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 12, 1999
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      N & RJ Hanscamp wrote:

       Is anyone a starter for this - pure speculation, though possibly some theological grist? Is there any special reason why the writer chooses PNEUMA as the one of whom believers are born/begotten?  If 1.12 calls them "children of God" (TEKNA QEOU), if they are "born from above" where Jesus comes from (3.31), would it not be more natural to be "born of the Father?" Nigel
       
      If Jesus is the *only* begotten son of God (Jn 1:14,18), can there be others who are also begotten of God? I think not.

      Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit (Jn 1:33), thus forming Christians who are born/begotten "again" or "from above" (Jn 3:5)..

      Judith Kowalski
      Milwaukee, Wisconsin


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    • Maluflen@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/12/1999 7:22:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, drjudy@execpc.com writes:
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 12, 1999
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        In a message dated 7/12/1999 7:22:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        drjudy@... writes:

        <<
        If Jesus is the *only* begotten son of God (Jn 1:14,18), can there be
        others who are also begotten of God? I think not.>>

        This answer seems to ignore the evidence of 1 Jn 5:1, 4, where Christians are
        alluded to as those who are "begotten of God". It is true, however, that the
        Johannine writings never employ the expression huios Theou for any one other
        than Jesus, and his uniqueness as Son of God is thus maintained (cf. even 1
        Jn 5:9-10).

        Leonard Maluf



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      • Kevin Quast
        Hello everyone,I ve been lurking here since the John-Ltr group was formed and I apologize for not getting involved sooner. I was changing jobs (from pastor
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 12, 1999
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          Hello everyone,

          I've been lurking here since the John-Ltr group was formed and I apologize
          for not getting involved sooner. I was changing jobs (from pastor to dean)
          and moving offices, computers, etc., so discussion groups were not high on
          the "to do" list. But now I want to get more involved. Perhaps you can help
          me out. I am supposed to write a chapter in a Festschrift and my "assigned"
          topic is "women as witnesses in the Gospel of John." Any suggestions on how
          to approach this and where to go?

          Kevin
          ___________________________________________________

          Dr. Kevin Quast, Academic Dean
          North American Baptist College
          11525-23 Ave., Edmonton, Alberta, T6J 4T3
          (780)431-5208; Fax 436-9416
          kquast@...
          www.nabcebs.ab.ca/net <http://www.nabcebs.ab.ca/net>

           


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        • Stevan Davies
          ... Unsubscribe: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@egroups.com Contact list managers: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 12, 1999
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            > If Jesus is the *only* begotten son of God (Jn 1:14,18), can there be
            > others who are also begotten of God? I think not.
            >
            > Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit (Jn 1:33), thus forming Christians who
            > are born/begotten "again" or "from above" (Jn 3:5)..
            >
            > Judith Kowalski

            This sounds, on the face of it, contradictory. Or is the idea here that
            Jesus was begotten from the start while others become begotten
            through the spirit? Is this also Paul's idea (cf. being made Sons
            of God through the Spirit)?

            The "only begotten" = "monogenous" word seems to be a
            simile modifying "glory" anyhow, and not a statement
            about Jesus per se.

            Varous translations differ, but the NIV approach, which you
            seem to hold, appears to be tendentious, lacking the "as of"
            element that indictes that "monogenous" describes the kind
            of "glory" under discussion.

            NIV The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
            We have seen his glory, the glory of the
            One and Only, [or only begotten] who came from the
            Father, full of grace and truth.

            RSV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
            full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory,
            glory as of the only Son from the Father.

            KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
            (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the
            only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

            DBY And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us
            (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of
            an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth;

            YLT And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle
            among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an
            only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

            Finally, the notion of begetting through the Spirit may well be
            present in these lines, for the word "en" translated "among"
            can of course be translated "in," which will make the statement
            quoted above not a claim about Jesus-became-flesh as an
            event in the past but a claim about the Word-became-flesh "in" us.

            Steve Davies
            College Misericordia

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          • Neil Booth
            Nigel Hanscamp began this thread by asking ...Is there any special reason why the writer chooses PNEUMA as the one of whom believers are born/begotten?
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 12, 1999
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              Nigel Hanscamp began this thread by asking ...

              > Is there any special reason why the writer chooses PNEUMA as the one of
              > whom believers are born/begotten? If 1.12 calls them "children of God"
              (TEKNA > QEOU), if they are "born from above" where Jesus comes from (3.31),
              would it
              > not be more natural to be "born of the Father?"

              and, replying to Judith Kowalski, Stevan Davies wrote ...

              > Or is the idea here that
              > Jesus was begotten from the start while others become begotten
              > through the spirit?

              Although Jesus is described in Scripture as the only begotten Son of God and
              the Son of the Father, is not his begetting equally ascribed to the Spirit?
              It was said to Mary that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you ... wherefore
              also the thing being born will be called holy, Son of God" (Luke 1.35) and,
              after that "coming upon" had taken place, Mary "was found having in womb
              of/by [the] spirit" - EK PNEUMATOS (Matthew 1.18). And is not this why John
              chooses PNEUMA as the one of whom believers are born/begotten?

              Neil Booth
              Bradford, England

              For Booth's Bible Brief visit http://www.bbb.ndo.co.uk

              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              --
              There is nothing we can do to make God love us more
              There is nothing we can do to make God love us less
              --------------------<((>< Philip Yancey ><))>--------------------

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Stevan Davies <miser17@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@egroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, 12 July 1999 6:16
              Subject: [John_Lit] Re: John 3.3-5


              >
              > > If Jesus is the *only* begotten son of God (Jn 1:14,18), can there be
              > > others who are also begotten of God? I think not.
              > >
              > > Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit (Jn 1:33), thus forming Christians who
              > > are born/begotten "again" or "from above" (Jn 3:5)..
              > >
              > > Judith Kowalski
              >
              > This sounds, on the face of it, contradictory. Or is the idea here that
              > Jesus was begotten from the start while others become begotten
              > through the spirit? Is this also Paul's idea (cf. being made Sons
              > of God through the Spirit)?
              >
              > The "only begotten" = "monogenous" word seems to be a
              > simile modifying "glory" anyhow, and not a statement
              > about Jesus per se.
              >
              > Varous translations differ, but the NIV approach, which you
              > seem to hold, appears to be tendentious, lacking the "as of"
              > element that indictes that "monogenous" describes the kind
              > of "glory" under discussion.
              >
              > NIV The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
              > We have seen his glory, the glory of the
              > One and Only, [or only begotten] who came from the
              > Father, full of grace and truth.
              >
              > RSV And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
              > full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory,
              > glory as of the only Son from the Father.
              >
              > KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
              > (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the
              > only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
              >
              > DBY And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us
              > (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of
              > an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and
              truth;
              >
              > YLT And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle
              > among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an
              > only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
              >
              > Finally, the notion of begetting through the Spirit may well be
              > present in these lines, for the word "en" translated "among"
              > can of course be translated "in," which will make the statement
              > quoted above not a claim about Jesus-became-flesh as an
              > event in the past but a claim about the Word-became-flesh "in" us.
              >
              > Steve Davies
              > College Misericordia
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Subscribe: send e-mail briefly describing your academic background &
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              >
              >


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            • Thatcher, Tom
              As has been noted, the idea that true Christians are of God, the genitive of origin or ablative use, is everywhere in 1-2-3 John. 1 John 3:10 specifically
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 13, 1999
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                As has been noted, the idea that true Christians are "of God," the genitive
                of origin or ablative use, is everywhere in 1-2-3 John. 1 John 3:10
                specifically uses "children (teknia) of God" (cp. "children of light"
                somewhere in FG that I can't remember offhand). But back to the original
                question, it is indeed interesting that FE refers to "born of Spirit" rather
                than "born of God." I personally believe it is because pneuma is used in
                parallelism with "water" in 3:3-5 as synonymns for anothen; "born from
                above" = "born of water and Spirit." There are, of couse, several
                connections between water and spirit in FG, most notably chapter 7, where FE
                makes the "living water" of Jesus' discourse the Spirit. It seems that John
                is suggesting that the Spirit accomplishes some sort of rebirth in
                believers, ala 1:12? This would be similar to the Pauline concept, would it
                not, minus the Pauline baptism?

                Respectfully,
                --tom

                "The Truth Will Set You Free"
                Tom Thatcher
                CBC&S
                (513) 244-8172



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              • Mark Matson
                Kevin:A couple more references that you might already have, but are worth noting on this subject:Sandra Schneiders, John 20:11-18: the Encounter of the
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 14, 1999
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                  Kevin:

                  A couple more references that you might already have, but are worth
                  noting on this subject:

                  Sandra Schneiders, "John 20:11-18: the Encounter of the Easter Jesus
                  with Mary Magdalene -- A Transformative Feminist Reading." in What is
                  John, vol. 1.

                  Luise Schottroff, "The Samaritan Woman and the Notion of Sexuality in
                  the Fourth Gospel." in What is John, vol. 2.

                  Mark
                  > Hello everyone,
                  >
                  > I've been lurking here since the John-Ltr group was formed and I apologize
                  > for not getting involved sooner. I was changing jobs (from pastor to dean)
                  > and moving offices, computers, etc., so discussion groups were not high on
                  > the "to do" list. But now I want to get more involved. Perhaps you can help
                  > me out. I am supposed to write a chapter in a Festschrift and my "assigned"
                  > topic is "women as witnesses in the Gospel of John." Any suggestions on how
                  > to approach this and where to go?
                  >
                  > Kevin
                  > ___________________________________________________
                  >
                  > Dr. Kevin Quast, Academic Dean
                  > North American Baptist College
                  > 11525-23 Ave., Edmonton, Alberta, T6J 4T3
                  > (780)431-5208; Fax 436-9416
                  > kquast@...
                  > www.nabcebs.ab.ca/net <http://www.nabcebs.ab.ca/net>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Subscribe: send e-mail briefly describing your academic background & research interests to johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  Mark A. Matson, Ph.D.
                  Asst. Director, Sanford Institute of Public Policy
                  Adjunct Professor of New Testament
                  Duke University
                  Durham, NC 27713
                  (919) 613-7310

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