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[John_Lit] Discussion of Michael Willett Newheart's SBL1999 Paper

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Monday morning has arrived here in The Land of Morning Calm , so I suppose that we can start the next discussion. Michael Willett Newheart wrote:
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
      Monday morning has arrived here in "The Land of
      Morning Calm", so I suppose that we can start the next
      discussion. Michael Willett Newheart wrote:

      _______________________________________________________

      Jesusfathershouse, which is not the temple but Jesus�
      body (2:16, 21), is many-dwellinged. Lots of room for
      father and son and children to gather into one
      (11:52). Jesus goes there (Why does he need to go to
      his fathershouse if he is it?) to for the disciples
      place-prepare one of those many dwellings. After
      going, Jesus gonna come again to the disciples to
      receive them into his prepared bodyhouse so that they,
      his servant-followers, his father-given-ones, can be
      with him where he is and see his loving glory (12:26;
      17:24).

      _______________________________________________________

      This is an interesting association to make here
      between the temple as God's house and Jesus's body as
      God's house. It has never occurred to me to apply this
      association to Jesus's farewell discourse image of the
      house that Jesus goes to prepare. Have others also
      written on this?

      How far should we take this association in
      understanding the Johannine image? Does the fourth
      evangelist intend us to understand Jesus's body as the
      church (by analogy to the temple) that will be
      prepared by crucifixion and resurrection?

      This can allow us to think about the language of union
      into a concrete (if speculative) manner.

      The temple houses God, but people can enter into it.
      Similarly, the church houses God, but people can enter
      into it. The Father is in Jesus, and the believers are
      in Jesus.

      Yet, Jesus is also in the believers through his
      spirit, which binds believers to one another to make
      up the church. The church, then, is not a specific
      building but something more like the heavenly temple
      -- a bit of realized eschatology.

      But Jesus's body is also a place where believers dwell
      -- is the image of the early churches operative here,
      i.e., the home as the meeting place of the church?
      This would resonate with Michael Newheart's theme of
      "home".

      Are multivalent images of temple, church, home, and
      body intersecting here in the Johannine Jesus's
      farewell discourse?

      I'd speculate more on this, but my son is re-calling
      me away from our ethereal discussion hall back to the
      world of the home. I have to feed him.

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
      College of Continuing Education
      Kyungnam University
      449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
      Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
      Republic of Korea

      __________________________________________________
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    • Michael Newheart
      Thanks, Jeffery, for kicking off discussion of my paper. You discuss the association I make between Jesus body and the temple as God s house, and you ask if
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
        Thanks, Jeffery, for kicking off discussion of my paper. You discuss the
        association I make between Jesus' body and the temple as God's house, and
        you ask if anyone else has written on this. I don't know that anybody has.
        Perhaps someone else will know. I appreciate your continuing to play with
        the association.

        To all JL list-servers, the book that my paper comes out of, WORD AND SOUL,
        will be published by The Liturgical Press in July 2001. You can read a
        summary of it, the table of contents and the introduction at
        http://www.catalog.litpress.org/detail.cfm?ID=2173

        I look forward to a spirited (paraclete-ed?) discussion this week.

        Peace to all,
        Michael

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001 5:00 PM
        Subject: [John_Lit] Discussion of Michael Willett Newheart's SBL1999 Paper


        >Monday morning has arrived here in "The Land of
        >Morning Calm", so I suppose that we can start the next
        >discussion. Michael Willett Newheart wrote:
        >
        >_______________________________________________________
        >
        >Jesusfathershouse, which is not the temple but Jesus’
        >body (2:16, 21), is many-dwellinged. Lots of room for
        >father and son and children to gather into one
        >(11:52). Jesus goes there (Why does he need to go to
        >his fathershouse if he is it?) to for the disciples
        >place-prepare one of those many dwellings. After
        >going, Jesus gonna come again to the disciples to
        >receive them into his prepared bodyhouse so that they,
        >his servant-followers, his father-given-ones, can be
        >with him where he is and see his loving glory (12:26;
        >17:24).
        >
        >_______________________________________________________
        >
        >This is an interesting association to make here
        >between the temple as God's house and Jesus's body as
        >God's house. It has never occurred to me to apply this
        >association to Jesus's farewell discourse image of the
        >house that Jesus goes to prepare. Have others also
        >written on this?
        >
        >How far should we take this association in
        >understanding the Johannine image? Does the fourth
        >evangelist intend us to understand Jesus's body as the
        >church (by analogy to the temple) that will be
        >prepared by crucifixion and resurrection?
        >
        >This can allow us to think about the language of union
        >into a concrete (if speculative) manner.
        >
        >The temple houses God, but people can enter into it.
        >Similarly, the church houses God, but people can enter
        >into it. The Father is in Jesus, and the believers are
        >in Jesus.
        >
        >Yet, Jesus is also in the believers through his
        >spirit, which binds believers to one another to make
        >up the church. The church, then, is not a specific
        >building but something more like the heavenly temple
        >-- a bit of realized eschatology.
        >
        >But Jesus's body is also a place where believers dwell
        >-- is the image of the early churches operative here,
        >i.e., the home as the meeting place of the church?
        >This would resonate with Michael Newheart's theme of
        >"home".
        >
        >Are multivalent images of temple, church, home, and
        >body intersecting here in the Johannine Jesus's
        >farewell discourse?
        >
        >I'd speculate more on this, but my son is re-calling
        >me away from our ethereal discussion hall back to the
        >world of the home. I have to feed him.
        >
        >Jeffery Hodges
        >
        >=====
        >Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
        >College of Continuing Education
        >Kyungnam University
        >449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
        >Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
        >Republic of Korea
        >
        >__________________________________________________
        >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
        >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
        >
        >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
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        >
      • James Shelton
        ... The following is a footnote found in the NET Bible online in reference to John 14:2 Most interpreters have understood the reference to my Father s house
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
          > Thanks, Jeffery, for kicking off discussion of my paper. You discuss the
          > association I make between Jesus' body and the temple as God's house, and
          > you ask if anyone else has written on this. I don't know that anybody has.

          The following is a footnote found in the NET Bible online in reference to
          John 14:2

          "Most interpreters have understood the reference to my Father's house as a
          reference to heaven, and the dwelling places (monhv, monh) as the permanent
          residences of believers there. This seems consistent with the vocabulary and
          the context, where in v. 3 Jesus speaks of coming again to take the
          disciples to himself. ***However, the phrase in my Father's house was used
          previously in the Fourth Gospel in 2:16 to refer to the temple in Jerusalem.
          The author in 2:19-22 then reinterpreted the temple as Jesus' body, which
          was to be destroyed in death and then rebuilt in resurrection after three
          days. Even more suggestive is the statement by Jesus in 8:35, "Now the slave
          does not remain (mevnw, menw) in the household forever, but the son remains
          (mevnw) forever." If in the imagery of the Fourth Gospel the phrase in my
          Father's house is ultimately a reference to Jesus' body, the relationship of
          monhv to mevnw suggests the permanent relationship of the believer to Jesus
          and the Father as an adopted son who remains in the household forever. In
          this case the "dwelling place" is "in" Jesus himself, where he is, whether
          in heaven or on earth. The statement in v. 3, "I will come again and receive
          you to myself," then refers not just to the parousia, but also to Jesus'
          post-resurrection return to the disciples in his glorified state, when by
          virtue of his death on their behalf they may enter into union with him and
          with the Father as adopted sons. Needless to say, this bears numerous
          similarities to Pauline theology, especially the concepts of adoption as
          sons and being "in Christ" which are prominent in passages like Eph 1. It is
          also important to note, however, the emphasis in the Fourth Gospel itself on
          the present reality of eternal life (John 5:24, 7:38-39, etc.) and the
          possibility of worshiping the Father "in the Spirit and in truth" (John
          4:21-24) in the present age. There is a sense in which it is possible to say
          that the future reality is present now. See further J. McCaffrey, The House
          With Many Rooms. "


          I hope this may be of some help.
          Jim Shelton
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Michael Newheart" <mjnewheart@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 6:00 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Discussion of Michael Willett Newheart's SBL1999
          Paper


          > Thanks, Jeffery, for kicking off discussion of my paper. You discuss the
          > association I make between Jesus' body and the temple as God's house, and
          > you ask if anyone else has written on this. I don't know that anybody has.
          > Perhaps someone else will know. I appreciate your continuing to play with
          > the association.
          >
          > To all JL list-servers, the book that my paper comes out of, WORD AND
          SOUL,
          > will be published by The Liturgical Press in July 2001. You can read a
          > summary of it, the table of contents and the introduction at
          > http://www.catalog.litpress.org/detail.cfm?ID=2173
          >
          > I look forward to a spirited (paraclete-ed?) discussion this week.
          >
          > Peace to all,
          > Michael
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
          > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          > <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001 5:00 PM
          > Subject: [John_Lit] Discussion of Michael Willett Newheart's SBL1999 Paper
          >
          >
          > >Monday morning has arrived here in "The Land of
          > >Morning Calm", so I suppose that we can start the next
          > >discussion. Michael Willett Newheart wrote:
          > >
          > >_______________________________________________________
          > >
          > >Jesusfathershouse, which is not the temple but Jesus'
          > >body (2:16, 21), is many-dwellinged. Lots of room for
          > >father and son and children to gather into one
          > >(11:52). Jesus goes there (Why does he need to go to
          > >his fathershouse if he is it?) to for the disciples
          > >place-prepare one of those many dwellings. After
          > >going, Jesus gonna come again to the disciples to
          > >receive them into his prepared bodyhouse so that they,
          > >his servant-followers, his father-given-ones, can be
          > >with him where he is and see his loving glory (12:26;
          > >17:24).
          > >
          > >_______________________________________________________
          > >
          > >This is an interesting association to make here
          > >between the temple as God's house and Jesus's body as
          > >God's house. It has never occurred to me to apply this
          > >association to Jesus's farewell discourse image of the
          > >house that Jesus goes to prepare. Have others also
          > >written on this?
          > >
          > >How far should we take this association in
          > >understanding the Johannine image? Does the fourth
          > >evangelist intend us to understand Jesus's body as the
          > >church (by analogy to the temple) that will be
          > >prepared by crucifixion and resurrection?
          > >
          > >This can allow us to think about the language of union
          > >into a concrete (if speculative) manner.
          > >
          > >The temple houses God, but people can enter into it.
          > >Similarly, the church houses God, but people can enter
          > >into it. The Father is in Jesus, and the believers are
          > >in Jesus.
          > >
          > >Yet, Jesus is also in the believers through his
          > >spirit, which binds believers to one another to make
          > >up the church. The church, then, is not a specific
          > >building but something more like the heavenly temple
          > >-- a bit of realized eschatology.
          > >
          > >But Jesus's body is also a place where believers dwell
          > >-- is the image of the early churches operative here,
          > >i.e., the home as the meeting place of the church?
          > >This would resonate with Michael Newheart's theme of
          > >"home".
          > >
          > >Are multivalent images of temple, church, home, and
          > >body intersecting here in the Johannine Jesus's
          > >farewell discourse?
          > >
          > >I'd speculate more on this, but my son is re-calling
          > >me away from our ethereal discussion hall back to the
          > >world of the home. I have to feed him.
          > >
          > >Jeffery Hodges
          > >
          > >=====
          > >Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
          > >College of Continuing Education
          > >Kyungnam University
          > >449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
          > >Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
          > >Republic of Korea
          > >
          > >__________________________________________________
          > >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
          > >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
          > >
          > >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
          > >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@egroups.com
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@egroups.com
          >
          >
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          ... Well, I tried to, but not very successfully. However, having taught a bit of poetry in my time, I know from experience how reluctant people are to hazard a
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 6, 2001
            Michael Newheart wrote:

            > Thanks, Jeffery, for kicking off discussion of my
            > paper.

            Well, I tried to, but not very successfully. However,
            having taught a bit of poetry in my time, I know from
            experience how reluctant people are to hazard a
            response to it.

            > You discuss the
            > association I make between Jesus' body and the
            > temple as God's house, and
            > you ask if anyone else has written on this. I don't
            > know that anybody has.
            > Perhaps someone else will know.

            On this more prosaic topic, we've already seen James
            Shelton supply a citation. I've since found one
            myself, and because I have a bit of time on my hands,
            I'll type the passage in for everyone's convenience:

            -------------------------------------------------------

            2 A primary reason for maintaining faith in Jesus,
            precisely as the Crucified, is now given. The picture
            portrays a large house with many subsidiary living
            quarters (the AV/KJV translation of monai as
            "mansions" goes back to the Tyndale [echoing the
            Vulgate mansiones] in whose time the term simply
            denoted a dwelling; Luther's Wohnungen is apt: in
            modern times the term is used not only for dwellings,
            but for "apartments", "flats"). Some exegetes have
            interpreted oikia in a corporate sense, in the light
            of the concept of the Church as a spiritual house or
            temple of God (cf. e.e., 1 Cor 3:16-17; Eph 2:20-22; 1
            Pet 2:5, also John 2:19-21); the promise in vv 2-3 is
            then thought to relate to the fellowship which will be
            possible through Christ's departure and return through
            the Spirit (so R. H. Gundry, "In My Father's House Are
            Many Monai," 69-71. O. Schaefer viewed the Father's
            house as "the Father's realm of power and love that
            embraces heaven and earth," and the return of Jesus to
            his disciples as for mutual fellowship within that
            "home" in the present, "Der Sinn der Rede Jesu von den
            vielen Wohnungen . . . ," 213-16). On the contrary,
            the Father's "house" with its many dwellings is most
            plausibly a pictorial representation of the
            transcendent dwelling of God, such as is depicted
            under the figure of "the city of the living God, the
            heavenly Jerusalem" in Heb 12:22, a symbol which is
            greatly elaborated in the apocalyptic vision of the
            City of God in Rev 21:9-22:5. Naturally the figure in
            John 14:2-3 is wholly unapocalyptic; rather it is
            eschatological, as the related comparison of tent and
            house in 2 Cor 5:1 (see the full discussion of the
            possibilities of interpretation in G. Fischer, Die
            himmilische Wohnungen: Untersuchungen zu Joh 14,2f,
            58-74). The departure of Jesus is for the purpose of
            preparing a place for the disciples within that
            "home"; the latter is viewed as existing already, but
            by his death and exaltation the Lord is to make it
            possible for his own to be there with him.

            (George R. Beasley-Murray, John [Word Biblical
            Commentary, Vol. 36 (Second Edition)], p. 249)

            -------------------------------------------------------

            Perhaps some of the listserve members will find this
            hint about "home" in Michael Newheart's paper
            interesting and respond now that it's been "fleshed"
            out a bit.

            Jeffery Hodges

            =====
            Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
            College of Continuing Education
            Kyungnam University
            449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
            Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
            Republic of Korea

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
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          • Bob MacDonald
            How does one discuss this? I had a discussion with a man named 18th percentile, a pagan with only distant interest in religious things. (Only for when I
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 6, 2001
              How does one 'discuss' this?

              I had a discussion with a man named 18th percentile, a pagan with only
              distant interest in religious things. (Only for when I really get afraid of
              death.) He's still too young since 82% of the world is younger than he.

              Maybe the presence will get through with this poetry. Clearly the population
              in eternal life is One.

              Awesome

              Thanks

              Bob

              mailto::BobMacDonald@...
              + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

              Catch the foxes for us,
              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
              http://members.home.net/bobmacdonald/homepage.htm
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Concerning Michael Newheart s paper, Bob MacDonald ... death.) ... poetry. ... Good question and clever example. It s certainly easier to set off on a
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 7, 2001
                Concerning Michael Newheart's paper, Bob MacDonald
                wrote:

                > How does one 'discuss' this?

                Then took off on a poetic riff:

                > I had a discussion with a man named 18th percentile,
                > a pagan with only distant interest in religious
                > things. (Only for when I really get afraid of
                death.)
                > He's still too young since 82% of the world is
                > younger than he.
                >
                > Maybe the presence will get through with this
                poetry.
                > Clearly the population in eternal life is One.

                Good question and clever example. It's certainly
                easier to set off on a discussion of more traditional
                approaches to John than what you or Michael have
                provided (though I take it that yours was meant more
                humorously than seriously).

                I think that part of the problem here is that we're
                dealing with poesis and its attendant category of
                truth.

                Let me briefly (if roughly) clarify what I mean.
                Traditionally -- as we all know -- there are two
                general theories of truth: correspondence and
                coherence. Historical approaches to a text generally
                favor the former, whereas literary approaches to a
                text generally favor the latter. We know, more or
                less, how to proceed in in analyzing historical and
                literary interpretations.

                What Michael Newheart has done, however, is to
                interpret the text by writing a poem. He is not
                particularly interested in its correspondence to
                historical reality or its internal literary coherence.
                Thus, there is little to say on either of those
                scores.

                A poesis category of truth is truth as creation --
                truth that is made by the poet. It either resonates
                with readers/listeners, or it doesn't. We can, of
                course, analyze the creation in terms of its basic
                poetic devices -- rhythm, sound, and imagery and
                everything deriving from these three -- but unless the
                poem resonates with us, there might be little point to
                it.

                As for me, I enjoyed reading Michael's paper.

                I liked the wordplays, appreciated the fun that he had
                with language (and if you look at the blurb for his
                book, you'll find a nice pun in every chapter heading:
                e.g., fore-word, bye-word, sky-word, etc.).

                I liked the twisted, quasi-Germanic-sounding
                participials used as adjectives, for these brought an
                immediacy to the text that made me want to look again
                at the Johannine Greek itself to see there were
                parallels (though I haven't done so yet).

                I even gained some insights about how to reread John
                -- such as the possibility concerning
                temple-body-church that I've already posted on. The
                theme of home as community -- and its other-poem
                parallels to homes/communities that we may wish to
                construct today gave Michael's poem a larger relevance
                for me than it would have had if it had remained a
                purely internal soul-hermeneutic.

                The only thing that didn't seem to fit Michael's poem
                was his soapbox stance in a couple of instances near
                the end. (Hey, did you catch my puns?) This is merely
                an aesthetic point that I'm making, not an ideological
                one.

                Okay, that's all from me . . . for now. I hope that
                this will motivate more responses.

                Jeffery Hodges

                =====
                Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
                College of Continuing Education
                Kyungnam University
                449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
                Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
                Republic of Korea

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
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