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Re: [John_Lit] FG and Synoptics

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second Century C.E. -- about 180, correct? By decadence , I presume that you mean highly developed . Yes,
    Message 1 of 51 , Nov 6, 2000
      Peter Hofrichter wrote:

      > Of course, we have no direct litterary evidence
      > [for believing that Gnosticism might date to the 30s
      > or40s], but some indirect:
      >
      > Our sources of the 2nd century, especially Irenaeus,
      > show alredy a big variety and decadence of the
      > gnostic speculations and systems. This implies
      > already a long development.

      Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second
      Century C.E. -- about 180, correct?

      By "decadence", I presume that you mean "highly
      developed". Yes, there were a number of highly
      developed Gnostic Systems, but I don't know that this
      implies a long development.

      Manichaeism, for instance, was from its origin a
      highly developed Gnostic system. Mani took from many
      sources to develop his own complex Gnostic religion --
      arguably, the most highly developed of them all. He
      did this within about 40 years, and he probably had it
      all worked out in fewer.

      > Irenaeus traces gnosticism back to Simon Magus of
      > Lukes Acts of the Aposles who became acquainted to
      > the Jesus-movement through Philippus, probably in
      > the cirties. I dont think theat Simon Magus was the
      > very founder of gnosticism but a prominent and
      > especially negative representative in a broader
      > stream mainly within the hellenistic Church.

      I don't think that we have any solid evidence that
      Simon Magus was really a Gnostic. Irenaeus is writing
      many years later and may be conflating heresies. I
      don't see much in Acts to support the view that Simon
      Magus was a Gnostic.

      > Most gnostic mythologies are derived from the
      > prologue of John without showing any trace of the
      > FG. That means they had its common origin before
      > Logos-Hymn was commented by the author of the FG and
      > included in his work.

      Is it the case that most Gnostic mythologies were
      derived from John's prologue? And do you really mean
      that -- you seem, rather, to mean that the Gnostics
      uses an extra-Johannine version of a proto-Johannine
      Logos Hymn.

      Perhaps this is too far from Johannine themes for us
      to continue -- though Bultmann's Gnostic hypothesis
      concerning the fourth gospel still holds an attraction
      for some scholars, so there might be reason to
      continue. I suppose that we could see if others have
      any interest in this thread.

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
      College of Continuing Education
      Kyungnam University
      449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
      Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
      Republic of Korea

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
      http://shopping.yahoo.com/
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second Century C.E. -- about 180, correct? By decadence , I presume that you mean highly developed . Yes,
      Message 51 of 51 , Nov 6, 2000
        Peter Hofrichter wrote:

        > Of course, we have no direct litterary evidence
        > [for believing that Gnosticism might date to the 30s
        > or40s], but some indirect:
        >
        > Our sources of the 2nd century, especially Irenaeus,
        > show alredy a big variety and decadence of the
        > gnostic speculations and systems. This implies
        > already a long development.

        Irenaeus is writing towared the end of the Second
        Century C.E. -- about 180, correct?

        By "decadence", I presume that you mean "highly
        developed". Yes, there were a number of highly
        developed Gnostic Systems, but I don't know that this
        implies a long development.

        Manichaeism, for instance, was from its origin a
        highly developed Gnostic system. Mani took from many
        sources to develop his own complex Gnostic religion --
        arguably, the most highly developed of them all. He
        did this within about 40 years, and he probably had it
        all worked out in fewer.

        > Irenaeus traces gnosticism back to Simon Magus of
        > Lukes Acts of the Aposles who became acquainted to
        > the Jesus-movement through Philippus, probably in
        > the cirties. I dont think theat Simon Magus was the
        > very founder of gnosticism but a prominent and
        > especially negative representative in a broader
        > stream mainly within the hellenistic Church.

        I don't think that we have any solid evidence that
        Simon Magus was really a Gnostic. Irenaeus is writing
        many years later and may be conflating heresies. I
        don't see much in Acts to support the view that Simon
        Magus was a Gnostic.

        > Most gnostic mythologies are derived from the
        > prologue of John without showing any trace of the
        > FG. That means they had its common origin before
        > Logos-Hymn was commented by the author of the FG and
        > included in his work.

        Is it the case that most Gnostic mythologies were
        derived from John's prologue? And do you really mean
        that -- you seem, rather, to mean that the Gnostics
        uses an extra-Johannine version of a proto-Johannine
        Logos Hymn.

        Perhaps this is too far from Johannine themes for us
        to continue -- though Bultmann's Gnostic hypothesis
        concerning the fourth gospel still holds an attraction
        for some scholars, so there might be reason to
        continue. I suppose that we could see if others have
        any interest in this thread.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges, Lecturer
        College of Continuing Education
        Kyungnam University
        449 Wolyoung-Dong, Habpo-Gu
        Masan, Kyungnam 631-701
        Republic of Korea

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
        http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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