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5702RE: [John_Lit] T Jn. 4:22 -responses to Mark and Stephen

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  • Matson, Mark (Academic)
    Mar 17, 2009
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      Kevin:

      Thanks for that. I went back to LSJ (at Perseus online this time, since I am at home w/o my LSJ 9 handy), and looked at your examples.

      I wonder, is the difference actually something explainable by context/

      Might the dative simply mean "I bow down before, or toward"? While the accusative is used more generically for worship. this would explain most of the instances you cite, and the reference in LSJ to the "later use" of dative under the subheading of "to bow down before in the oriental fashion" ....

      Of course to test this would require some research in a larger data base, say TLG for the Hellenistic period. And i doubt I will find time to do that. but that is just a thought.



      Mark A. Matson
      Academic Dean
      Milligan College
      http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

      ________________________________

      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Kevin Snapp
      Sent: Tue 3/17/2009 9:48 PM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] T Jn. 4:22 -responses to Mark and Stephen



      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...> wrote:
      >
      > why do you think that proskunew requires a dative object? According to LSJ the accusative is very common. In fact I couldn't find the dative as the basic case referenced there at all.
      >
      > If proskunew takes the accusative, the sentence makes complete grammatical sense.
      >
      > Mark A. Matson
      > Academic Dean
      > Milligan College
      > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

      Mark,

      My understanding was that proskunew took the accusative in classical
      Greek, but in Hellenistic Greek was supplanted by the dative. If my
      version of LSJ 9th edition matches yours, on p. 1518, col. 2, there
      is a note that in later Greek it took the dative, with citations to
      the LXX, the NT, Josephus' Antiquities and Dio Cassius.

      For my own education I ran a word search, and while the dative seems
      to be universal or almost universal in the LXX (I didn't read every
      example), it is mixed in the NT. Oddly mixed -- apart from 4:22
      under discussion, John uses the dative in 4:21,in 4:23 he uses the
      dative (tw patri), but then lets the accusative case of the
      participle govern the object of the participle, saying "the father
      seeks such worshipers of him (toioutous zHtei tous proskunountas
      auton), and then repeats the accusative "tous proskunountas auton"
      for "his worshipers" in 4:24. I have no idea whether there are
      variants; I didn't go that far.

      Interestingly, Matthew uses it with dative (2:2, 2:8, 4:9) except
      once with accusative in 4:10 -- where one would presume he is quoting
      the LXX: "for it is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve
      only him." That quote does not occur in the Hebrew Bible; the
      footnoted verse, Deut. 6:13 has "Fear the Lord ...." The combination
      of "worship" (with dative) and "serve" does occur several times, but
      in admonitions not to serve or worship other gods, not positive
      commands to only worship and serve God. Was Matthew misquoting from
      memory, or avoiding any implication that Satan is "another god"?

      So Satan asks Jesus to worship him -- in the dative, and Jesus
      responds, "it is written "Worship the Lord your God" -- in the
      accusative, which the LXX doesn't use.

      Revelation looks very strange to me -- God is worshiped in the
      dative, the Beast in the accusative, and the image of the Beast in
      the dative. I won't even guess why.

      Anyway, you're right that proskunew can take an accusative object,
      and I'll drop any grammatical objections to the accepted
      translation.








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