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5601Re: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?

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  • Tom Butler
    Jun 26, 2008
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      Hello Keith, John and other John_Lit Listers,
          Keith, in response to your theory about the meaning of "the Jews" in th Fourth Gospel, I would like to add another observation to John Lupia's point, which agrees with you, that this term does not imply that every Hebrew or even every Hebrew leader was involved in a plot to kill Jesus. 
          I believe that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel were intentionally using signs (Greek words borrowed directly from the Septuagint) to communicate the truth of the Gospel using the sacred language of the Hebrews. (This was a practice commonly used in Rabbinical schools of that period.  It is a didactic method called "Midrash."  "The Jews" (Ioudaioi) is a term borrowed, in my opinion, from Nehemiah 2: 16.  "The officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing; I had not yet told the Jews, the priests, the nobles, the officials, and the rest that were to do the work."
         Your theory that "the 'sum of the digits reducing to 9' as a sign of a group separated from God" is consistent with my theory that this term is, indeed, a sign, the meaning of which must be discerned by the reader through careful study and reflection.  It points to a privileged, but uninformed group of leaders who are incapable of seeing or acting in a way that establishes or re-establishes a relationship with God.  It is not as is so often assumed, a condemnation of the people or belief system of an entire nation or race of people.
      Tom Butler

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...>
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:28:30 PM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?

      --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Yoder"
      <klyoder5@.. .> wrote:
      > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
      > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
      > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
      > not be defiled from eating the Passover
      > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
      > charge do you bring...
      > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
      > him...
      > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
      > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
      to you
      > so you know that I find no fault in him
      > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
      > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
      > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
      > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
      > crucified; so they took Jesus

      Hi Keith,
      I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
      possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
      the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
      of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.

      I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
      convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
      the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
      from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
      someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
      99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
      saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
      separated from God.

      I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
      description of the system in place in his time. It was called
      the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
      one and nine.

      IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
      was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
      and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
      was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
      Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
      teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
      the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
      did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.

      Roger Mott
      Waterloo, Iowa

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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