Re: Sparking the crank
- Hi James
That info about the AC voltage on the crank has just about blown my socks off lol
It is certainly a very important discovery and as you say it would be very interesting to find the root of the source and its frequency to see if it correlates to something like an inductive crankshaft position sensor or whether it correlates to cylinder firing or maybe something like the crankshaft and block acting like an electric motor or alternator for the need of a better explaination
I am lead to believe that not just heat energy is released during the combustion process of fuel and that an electrical release may also be involved
However i have always had maybe a gut feeling or maybe kind of intuition that tells me there is some kind of electrical induction going on in the cylinder between the iron bore , steel rings and aluminium piston and maybe an interaction between the head and piston as well
I think this may be where the joecell comes into it especially on a diesel where there is no spark i feel there is more going on than conventionally meets the eye
Whether it is friction , static buildup or induction from the piston acting as a charged plate moving close and away from the head like a variable capacitor or something i do not know but you have certainly prompted me to take more notice as i would never have thought to perform such an experiment with the dvm on AC so thankyou for mentioning it
I may be able to share something interesting i found yesterday with you hopefully you will find is as interesting as i did
i have 2 JCs one is on the bench and the other is in a vehicle setup with ernst's bits
The big nutech 5" cell is on my bench and have been tinkering with it on and off for a few years
the last lot of rain we had i collected a heap of rainwater and put in it and hit it with 240vdc and it was clearly a very lifeless stage 1 cell so i tipped out the water and filled it with a fresh lot of the same water and left it on the bench as i wanted to setup ernsts relay charger to see if i can get something happening there
That cell had previously been programmed with Dave's Pi/2 fractal frequency on the tubes and while the cell is dry i can feel the frequency off the cell but the water dampens it out and i cannot really feel it them
I left it on the bench for 3 weeks and a mate asked me what i was tinkering with the other day so i showed him and just hit it with the 240vdc and it fired into life straight to stage 2/3 type bubbles with some bubbles lasting overnight but voltage was falling off to about .4-.6V
When i first got the cell i tried to align it in the best way i could which i found was wetting the tubes and probing with dvm and setting the tubes inside one another and flipping and turning to find the correct orientation where it liked to be
i found one of the tubes was a bit cranky and kept throwing a neg voltage across it so i cut a new tube and put in and it was exactly the same so i hadnt bothered with it for years and just figured id worry about it some other time
So all this time iv been playing with bubbles on a cell that would never work properly
Yesterday i popped the tube pack out of that cell and figured id try sparking the tubes so i got some small maybe 2mm wire and connected to 12v car battery(went small wire so low amp) put neg on bottom of each tube and flicked the top 3 times
put back in water and was still the same
i had prev tried flipping the tube and did again no better
the 1 offending tube i then held the + on the top and flicked the bottom once then measured with dvm and it had flipped straight away
Put cell back together and put same water back in and hiy it with 240vdc and the cell was completely different, looked like stg1 bubbles but there was quite a lot of mist/vapour coming off the top which is totally unusual for my cell
The bubbles are moving on the top of the water in a more uniform pattern and i was surprised to see the vapour sometimes torroiding in the top of the cell and sometimes twisting like a torsion feild making me think that now it is aligned properly the water is becoming magnetised and the cell is producing a more unified feild
I have a gut feeling that the cell is producing a torroidal field that the flux flow is actually flowing just like a torrid coil is wound and that the feild is looping and rotatating at the same time
i think maybe what has been called torsion feild had been mistaken for a torroidal feild and what feels as torsion flow is actually the intake of the torrid at the top of the cell
When a cell is charging you can see the bubbles popping in what appears to be rotating pockets like there is a field rotating in the water i think this is actually a rotating torroidal feild not like a static feild like earths feild
i took 2 videos and will send u the link to one and the link to the other is in the description
please watch carefully as some of it is nothing special but at the end of the longer vid is when it started torroiding and then i did the short vid too
also to note i came in this morning to what looked like a totally dead cell and it had a solid 1.1V on it totally shocked
I have to also note that the vid was taken in a totally enclosed area no windows open and most of the vopor seemed to head either directly north or directly south when it went in a direction
You can see the "magnetism" rolling the vapour back toward the centre of the cell and sometimes spiralling directly upward
It wasnt until i found the right position for the light at the end of the vid that i could capture it properly thats y i aalso did the short vid whick is linked in the comments
--- In email@example.com, "jgosscacc1" <jgosscacc@...> wrote:
> Here are some thoughts about sparking when the engine is running, and also why your suggestion to have the high beam headlights on when disconnecting jumper cables is a good idea.
> You are right Rod about the crankshaft not having a direct electrical connection to engine ground when the crank is rotating. Looks like there is going to be a large current difference between sparking the crank with engine running and not running. One other difference is this: Sparking current will not be supplied from the vehicle's 12 volt battery if the engine is running; instead it comes directly from the alternator. When the crank is tapped, the surge current will be supplied by the alternator and not the battery, unless the surge overloads the alternator and its terminal voltage drops below that of the battery, and then the battery will kick in. This is because the alternator's output runs about 2 volts greater in potential than that of the battery, and as long as the output voltage of the alternator is greater than that of the battery, the battery will be off line.
> In normal operation the alternator output voltage is always bucking the terminal voltage of the battery, which prevents the battery from supplying current. This arrangement allows the alternator to maintain charge on the battery while supplying current to all loads connected to the positive bus. Once the engine is cranked the battery has done its job and is not needed again until the next cranking of the engine. Of course when the engine is not running the battery supplies all electrical loads.
> A couple years back I placed a post on one of the groups relating to a crankshaft being electrically isolated by oil film, can't remember the post number, but it was back when I was discussing characteristics of oil with Robert. The post described an experiment I conducted with two metal plates separated by a film of oil. When both plates were stationary they had direct electrical continuity between them, when one plate was rotating and the other stationary they were electrically isolated. This tends to reinforce that with the crank rotating it might be isolated from the vehicle ground system.
> All crankshafts on both old and new vehicles that I have checked to date confirms that direct contact is made between the crank and ground system when the engine is not running. Recently I checked a 2011 F-150, which has an unusual amount of space between the engine and radiator; about 12 inches of free work space which makes it easy to access the crank pulley. Using a 12 inch screwdriver shaft with one meter lead connected to the negative battery and the other to the screwdriver shaft, with engine not running, the slightest touch of the screwdriver shaft to the crank pulley measured less than one ohm, which indicates direct contact between crank and engine ground.
> Next I ran the same check with the engine running. I first wanted to see if voltage was being generated by the rotating crankshaft. DC was around 10 mv, probably from the screwdriver shaft sliding on the pulley. However, AC measured a rather stable 20 volts being generated. I should have thought to increase speed of the engine to see if the AC increased in value but I didn't. I should have also measured the frequency of the AC. I'm building an assembly for a carbon brush and spring that will make stable contact with the crank pulley while the engine is running. I'm interested it the AC reading that showed up. With 20 volts being present on the crank it indicates that the shaft must be isolated from the engine ground system to some degree. The AC that's present on the crank prevents an accurate ohm reading, but the meter displayed near 100,000 ohms, varying above and below this value. So no doubt there is a good bit of resistance involved when the crank is rotating.
> In reference to headlights being on when disconnecting jumper cables: When one vehicle is jumping power to another vehicle due to its dead battery, it's possible for either vehicle to have alternator damage. This is more so true if the receiving vehicle does not crank and its ignition key remains in the run position, and that it involves older vehicles using points and condenser ignition systems. If the receiving vehicle does not start, and its points remain closed with the ignition switch on, the donor vehicle will be supplying current through the ignition coil primary of the receiving vehicle. When the cables are being removed, primary coil current in the receiving vehicle is interrupted in the same manner as its points interrupt the primary current, except this is not a clean break. Sometimes the disconnect involves numerous makes and breaks, plus charging time for the stored magnetic field in the coil primary can be much longer, allowing the primary to store greater energy.
> As the cables are removed, the collapsing field around the coil primary can create voltage pulses of sufficient amplitude to exceed the PIV rating of the diodes in the alternator. I refer to this voltage as inductive kick, more commonly known a CEMF or Back EMF. The fact that the points in the receiving vehicle are closed, which bypasses the condenser, which normally absorbs some of the inductive kick, and that the primary is allowed more time to store energy, the amplitude of the kick can be much greater that normal. This higher than normal voltage kick is be felt by diodes in both alternators, possibly exceeding their PIV rating.
> Having a load on the alternator, such as the high beam headlights, places a low resistance across the alternator. This resistance receives the same transient voltages from the coil primary as does the alternator diodes, and in so doing it places a load on the voltage surges. This tends to reduce their amplitude a small amount, compared to what it would have been without the headlight load. Actually having the headlights on in both vehicles would place more load on the surge voltages being generated.