## Re: Cell discharge rate

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• Hello Rod, While you have your buzz coil in operation you might try this setup for placing charge on the metal bowl. I have used this technique where single
Message 1 of 13 , Mar 7, 2013
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Hello Rod,

While you have your buzz coil in operation you might try this setup for placing charge on the metal bowl. I have used this technique where single point high voltage charge was needed, and it works well. The idea is to charge a high voltage capacitor and then transfer charge from one of its plates to the bowl of water, either polarity can be transferred. Once the charge has been transferred to the bowl, the charge should remain after your buzz coil circuit has been disconnected; the charge then begins to slowly dissipate with time. Most cell experimenters may not have a high voltage capacitor on hand, but one can be made in less than five minutes that will be sufficient for this project. The main thing is to have a DC charging source that will reach the value voltage needed, and you already have that.

Capacitors and batteries act in the same way when it comes to supplying charge, neither will readily give up one polarity without also giving up the other polarity at the same time. In other words if I try to remove only the negative charge from a battery or capacitor and not the positive charge, neither will allow the charge to leave. When a capacitor is charged, the close plate spacing allows opposite charges on the plates to form an electrostatic attraction, which can be relatively strong. Removing electrons from the negative plate of a capacitor charged with several thousand volts is difficult, due to attraction from the positive plate not releasing them. By the same token, transferring positive charge off the positive plate is equally difficult. Both polarity plates must give up their charge simultaneously and at the same rate.

Luckily there is a simple way to force a capacitor or battery to give up its charge, one polarity at a time. I stumbled across this technique back when I was placing high voltage positive unit charge on Joe cells. This is what I was doing at the time: Using a high voltage capacitor charged with 10,000 volts, I placed the positive terminal of the cap to the anode of an earth isolated Joe cell. The cell took on a high value positive unit charge, but would dissipate the charge over time, even though the positive capacitor terminal was still connected to the anode. Checking the capacitor showed that it was still charged at its original voltage value, but it would not release anymore charge. Thus unit charge would continue to dissipate over a period of several hours.

I discharged the capacitor with a shorting strap and then recharged. Connected cap back to the anode and the cell again displayed high voltage, but again it slowly dropped in value. Recharging the capacitor brought it back to a balanced state where the charge on each plate was equal in value, but opposite in polarity. When an earth isolated metal object is charged to this high value of voltage it begins attracting air ions. Air ions of both polarities are always lurking nearby and are one of the reasons that a high voltage unit charge dissipates over time. Other reasons for charge dissipation are leakage paths to earth ground and corona.

To make a long story short, I determined if the negative terminal of the capacitor had an earth ground reference, it would continually supply the cell with a positive unit charge. I also determined that instead of a direct earth ground reference, I could touch the negative capacitor terminal with a finger and it would trigger another pulse of charge from the capacitor. Each time the cell lost its charge, a touch to the negative terminal would bring it back. This would go on for six or seven cycles, but I then noticed the charge transferred from the cap was smaller in value. I determined that my body was becoming negatively charged to the point that touching the negative cap terminal was not removing anymore electrons. Clearing my body of charge allowed the sequence to begin again. This technique can be used for either polarity on a battery or capacitor.

A capacitor will completely clear itself of charge if each polarity plate is given ground reference in alternant steps. Example, extract charge from the negative plate, then extract charge from the positive plate. A capacitor wants to be balanced, so when charge is removed from one plate the cap becomes out or balance. Removing equal charge from the other plate balances the cap again, but if allowed to continue past the balance point, the cap becomes out of balance in the opposite direction.

A capacitor suitable for this type of project, which demands virtually no current, can be made from a 2 liter pop drink bottle. The plastic in these bottles make a suitable dielectric for high voltage capacitors. Remove the bottle label and place one layer of aluminum foil around the bottle. Make a tight fit, but not so tight the foil can not be slid on and off the top of the bottle. The foil becomes one plate of a capacitor. Fill the bottle with water leaving it three inches from the top. The water becomes the second plate of the capacitor; I refer to it as a wet plate. This capacitor has no polarity; either plate can be positive or negative.

To make contact with the wet plate inside the bottle, an insulated wire with about 1/4 inch of insulation removed from each end has one end placed inside the bottle. The wire needs to be long enough to extend beyond the top of the bottle about six inches, and be of a wire gauge that when bent to one side will support the power supply lead, keeping it away from the outer foil plate. The other power supply lead can be connected to the outer foil. This capacitor can hold its charge for quite some time so it needs to be handled with caution. While charged, it can be transported from place to place by holding it by its neck, but be sure to remove the conductor from the water and screw the bottle cap back on. If the water splashes out the top of the bottle onto your hand, you will be making contact with both plates. When using your buzz coil for charging the capacitor be sure to omit the neon lamp, it will be damaged.

I have a project coming up soon where the above charge releasing technique will be tested on a vehicle. The idea is to use the intrinsic feature of a vehicle's earth ground reference as an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

--------------------------------------

This part does not have anything to do with your project Rod, but it is interesting. After the bottle capacitor is charged, if you slide the aluminum outer plate off the bottle, the plastic still retains the high voltage charge. As the aluminum plate is being removed, charge will be transferred from the aluminum to the outer plastic of the bottle by corona discharge. The aluminum gives up its charge to the plastic. You now have a plastic bottle filled with water, but the plastic is still charged with thousands of volts. If you touch the outside of the bottle, your hand acts as one plate of a capacitor. At the same time if you place a finger inside the bottle and make contact with the water, you receive the shock of your life. The shocks are repeatable over and over if you move your hand to new locations on the outer plastic, thus I refer to the plastic as being spot discharged, and it can also be spot charged.

On a two liter bottle the shock could be fatal, so I am not recommending anyone actually try the shock experience. Smaller pop bottles will also charge and they offer less of a hazard, but still could be fatal. A small bottle of water setting on a table looks innocent. If someone is told not to pick it up and place a finger inside, due to electrical shock, they will do it or bust.

Thanks,
James Goss
• Thanks for that great post james So the pop bottle is essentially a leyden jar. As i have previously posted trying to duplicate ernst initial charging method
Message 2 of 13 , Mar 7, 2013
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Thanks for that great post james

So the pop bottle is essentially a leyden jar.

As i have previously posted trying to duplicate ernst initial charging method is proving to be a little elusive as per his description

The pop bottle method may definately be of some use as ernst stated that they had no success at all with the cells until one day they built a waterdropper which sets positive charge water in one bucket and negative charge water in the other bucket

After putting one of the charged waters from the dropper in a cell it worked pretty much immediately

This is what makes me think the unit charge is a lot more important than first thought obviously the dropper water must be handled carefully to prevent discharge

I am convinced the static charge is very important

Thanks Rod

--- In joecellfreeenergydevice@yahoogroups.com, "jgosscacc1" <jgosscacc@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Rod,
>
> While you have your buzz coil in operation you might try this setup for placing charge on the metal bowl. I have used this technique where single point high voltage charge was needed, and it works well. The idea is to charge a high voltage capacitor and then transfer charge from one of its plates to the bowl of water, either polarity can be transferred. Once the charge has been transferred to the bowl, the charge should remain after your buzz coil circuit has been disconnected; the charge then begins to slowly dissipate with time. Most cell experimenters may not have a high voltage capacitor on hand, but one can be made in less than five minutes that will be sufficient for this project. The main thing is to have a DC charging source that will reach the value voltage needed, and you already have that.
>
> Capacitors and batteries act in the same way when it comes to supplying charge, neither will readily give up one polarity without also giving up the other polarity at the same time. In other words if I try to remove only the negative charge from a battery or capacitor and not the positive charge, neither will allow the charge to leave. When a capacitor is charged, the close plate spacing allows opposite charges on the plates to form an electrostatic attraction, which can be relatively strong. Removing electrons from the negative plate of a capacitor charged with several thousand volts is difficult, due to attraction from the positive plate not releasing them. By the same token, transferring positive charge off the positive plate is equally difficult. Both polarity plates must give up their charge simultaneously and at the same rate.
>
> Luckily there is a simple way to force a capacitor or battery to give up its charge, one polarity at a time. I stumbled across this technique back when I was placing high voltage positive unit charge on Joe cells. This is what I was doing at the time: Using a high voltage capacitor charged with 10,000 volts, I placed the positive terminal of the cap to the anode of an earth isolated Joe cell. The cell took on a high value positive unit charge, but would dissipate the charge over time, even though the positive capacitor terminal was still connected to the anode. Checking the capacitor showed that it was still charged at its original voltage value, but it would not release anymore charge. Thus unit charge would continue to dissipate over a period of several hours.
>
> I discharged the capacitor with a shorting strap and then recharged. Connected cap back to the anode and the cell again displayed high voltage, but again it slowly dropped in value. Recharging the capacitor brought it back to a balanced state where the charge on each plate was equal in value, but opposite in polarity. When an earth isolated metal object is charged to this high value of voltage it begins attracting air ions. Air ions of both polarities are always lurking nearby and are one of the reasons that a high voltage unit charge dissipates over time. Other reasons for charge dissipation are leakage paths to earth ground and corona.
>
> To make a long story short, I determined if the negative terminal of the capacitor had an earth ground reference, it would continually supply the cell with a positive unit charge. I also determined that instead of a direct earth ground reference, I could touch the negative capacitor terminal with a finger and it would trigger another pulse of charge from the capacitor. Each time the cell lost its charge, a touch to the negative terminal would bring it back. This would go on for six or seven cycles, but I then noticed the charge transferred from the cap was smaller in value. I determined that my body was becoming negatively charged to the point that touching the negative cap terminal was not removing anymore electrons. Clearing my body of charge allowed the sequence to begin again. This technique can be used for either polarity on a battery or capacitor.
>
> A capacitor will completely clear itself of charge if each polarity plate is given ground reference in alternant steps. Example, extract charge from the negative plate, then extract charge from the positive plate. A capacitor wants to be balanced, so when charge is removed from one plate the cap becomes out or balance. Removing equal charge from the other plate balances the cap again, but if allowed to continue past the balance point, the cap becomes out of balance in the opposite direction.
>
> A capacitor suitable for this type of project, which demands virtually no current, can be made from a 2 liter pop drink bottle. The plastic in these bottles make a suitable dielectric for high voltage capacitors. Remove the bottle label and place one layer of aluminum foil around the bottle. Make a tight fit, but not so tight the foil can not be slid on and off the top of the bottle. The foil becomes one plate of a capacitor. Fill the bottle with water leaving it three inches from the top. The water becomes the second plate of the capacitor; I refer to it as a wet plate. This capacitor has no polarity; either plate can be positive or negative.
>
> To make contact with the wet plate inside the bottle, an insulated wire with about 1/4 inch of insulation removed from each end has one end placed inside the bottle. The wire needs to be long enough to extend beyond the top of the bottle about six inches, and be of a wire gauge that when bent to one side will support the power supply lead, keeping it away from the outer foil plate. The other power supply lead can be connected to the outer foil. This capacitor can hold its charge for quite some time so it needs to be handled with caution. While charged, it can be transported from place to place by holding it by its neck, but be sure to remove the conductor from the water and screw the bottle cap back on. If the water splashes out the top of the bottle onto your hand, you will be making contact with both plates. When using your buzz coil for charging the capacitor be sure to omit the neon lamp, it will be damaged.
>
> I have a project coming up soon where the above charge releasing technique will be tested on a vehicle. The idea is to use the intrinsic feature of a vehicle's earth ground reference as an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> This part does not have anything to do with your project Rod, but it is interesting. After the bottle capacitor is charged, if you slide the aluminum outer plate off the bottle, the plastic still retains the high voltage charge. As the aluminum plate is being removed, charge will be transferred from the aluminum to the outer plastic of the bottle by corona discharge. The aluminum gives up its charge to the plastic. You now have a plastic bottle filled with water, but the plastic is still charged with thousands of volts. If you touch the outside of the bottle, your hand acts as one plate of a capacitor. At the same time if you place a finger inside the bottle and make contact with the water, you receive the shock of your life. The shocks are repeatable over and over if you move your hand to new locations on the outer plastic, thus I refer to the plastic as being spot discharged, and it can also be spot charged.
>
> On a two liter bottle the shock could be fatal, so I am not recommending anyone actually try the shock experience. Smaller pop bottles will also charge and they offer less of a hazard, but still could be fatal. A small bottle of water setting on a table looks innocent. If someone is told not to pick it up and place a finger inside, due to electrical shock, they will do it or bust.
>
> Thanks,
> James Goss
>
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