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Re: [Joe Cell Free Energy Device] Re: Ren, please make a video

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  • Daniel Moeck
    Hi Ren & group, ... Personally, I never understood why anyone would attach guilt to making a profit. Whether a person is self-employed or employed by someone
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 8, 2005
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      Hi Ren & group,


      At 01:44 AM 6/7/2005, you wrote:

      >Hello Daniel, <g>
      >ok, ok, I shall endeavour to speak a universal type of English.
      >Daniel, I have never ever said that I can get cells to behave
      >reliably. Not once. In fact the opposite is the norm.
      >re:- profit. No way, I refuse to think like that. When I first began
      >playing with cells I thought of lots of money from the oil co.s to
      >make me go away. In that mind frame my experiments went nowhere.
      >Could not get past stage 2.


      Personally, I never understood why anyone would attach guilt to making a
      profit. Whether a person is self-employed or employed by someone else, no
      profit equals no paycheck. I mentioned profit simply to say that I think,
      if money is tight in your life as it is in mine, then you could justify
      spending a little on making a video because you would surely earn it back
      in sales and then some. My guess, knowing you, is that you would be likely
      to plow that profit back into your cellery work somehow. No shame in that.


      > And then the penny dropped. Adopt a
      >purer form of thought and just maybe I would get further. And I did.
      >If I ever make a video you chaps can have copies for cost. But I do
      >think that is a long way off.


      Well, I hope you will continue to think about doing a video anyway. Maybe,
      in time, it will seem right to you.


      >I could not make a video to compare with Joes Horses Mouth,
      >especially the first one. My results are nowhere near as dramatic.


      I'm not interested in drama. Since I am not a scientist either, and I'm not
      even very good at reading technical writing, I rely heavily on what I see
      with my own eyes. It's like the whole argument that a person has to
      actually build a cell to understand it. Well, I am saying that I think a
      lot of people, like me, would be helped tremendously if we could see visual
      images of the things you describe in your posts. Imagine trying to build a
      breeding cell from the directions in Alex's book without the still photos
      in it showing the difference between the stages. Words can easily mislead
      even the most sincere researcher when they are used to describe something
      new and unusual like this.

      I am thinking how helpful even just a surveillance-type video of your work
      would be because it would be more like looking over your shoulder. I know
      some colleges have gone to on-line science lab classes for credit. Now
      imagine trying to learn the same thing with no visuals, just words.

      >The bubble activity in my test cells is very busy, but they are
      >almost microscopic, a lot of them anyway. It just would not do
      >justice and you folks would feel ripped off at having paid the cost
      >of tape and postage. There is nothing you would see on a video. And
      >this is why I am always trying to encourage the forumsters to go
      >hands on, because that is the only way they will ever SEE.


      Ok, you other forumsters. Do you think it would be worthwhile to see what
      Ren is doing on a video, or would you feel ripped off if it wasn't
      dramatic? Am I alone on this?



      >And Daniel, the car wasn't "screwed", it just would not run on
      >petrol, it ran off the cell. The instructions were not vague, they
      >were not even instructions. I merely related what I had done.
      >I am not throwing a dummy spit, just trying to clear things up. As
      >you are well aware I am no scientist, have no knowledge even of
      >electricity, but I can make cells and I can charge them and I get to
      >see what they can do. The people who do not build and charge will
      >never see what I have seen, will never feel the excitement of
      >watching an engine do "good things".


      I suppose I have a general fear of the unknown when it comes to radical
      modifications to my vehicle. While I have not tried a Joe Cell in a car yet
      I have an extra vehicle outside right now that I am trying to get running
      so I can sell it for much needed cash. It was my only vehicle a few years
      ago and I drove it 100 miles a day 6 days a week for my work. It ran great
      until I put a GEET modification on it in an effort to improve my gas
      mileage. I took the GEET back off a short time later but the engine has
      never run right since. Even a mechanic who specialized in that particular
      vehicle could never figure out what was making it run so poorly. I think
      the GEET has always been considered to be a safer modification than a Joe
      Cell but that little experiment cost me dearly at a time when I could least
      afford it. So, without being able to look over the shoulder of someone who
      knows how to make a Joe Cell work reliably I simply can not afford to take
      a chance like that again.


      >I will help you folks as much as I can, but I can only do this from
      >my perspective and experience, and I am definitely more inclined to
      >be more helpful to builders than to non builders. Expense is not an
      >excuse I will accept. I built my first cell for $10 worth of scrap
      >ss tubing, and it worked after a fashion. It got me started.
      >Let me reitierate what I have been writing for close to five years
      >now, just do it, and, it works for me.
      >Goodies = blessings to all of you
      >Ren


      And I will continue to exchange ideas on theory with anyone who still wants
      to do that. We each have our own calling in life that brings us the
      greatest joy and together we probably cover just about all the bases.
      Talking on forums just to stroke my own ego would not bring me real joy.
      But endeavoring to deepen our understanding of these various new
      "over-unity-type" technologies by comparing and contrasting them does make
      me very happy because I know it is helping to bring us all a little closer
      to a better world in the near future.

      Daniel


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    • Bernie Heere
      Ren, I for one would really like to see a video. However, it doesn t really need to be a fancy production, You could make several short videos like the ones
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 8, 2005
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        Ren,

        I for one would really like to see a video. However, it doesn't really need
        to be a fancy production, You could make several short videos like the ones
        that I put up, with a simply Webcam, which can be bought for about $20. US.
        If you use the Microsoft MovieMaker to capture the video it is really simple
        to do. They can than be posted to the files section.

        Bernie


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • joricbrahamas
        I know this post is a long time after the fact concerning making a video of a cell in process of being constructed and it also being a functioning cell so I
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 13, 2005
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          I know this post is a long time after the fact concerning making a
          video of a cell in process of being constructed and it also being a
          functioning cell so I hope all will forgive me.
          Opinions were asked for and here is mine... Ren, stand your
          ground. I am not a do'er yet but I know one main thing from chatting
          with you gentlemen when I could find the time and that is you learn
          most from doing. If some one wants to make a video of a cell being
          constructed, that is their choice, as is the decision of sharing that
          video. It is morally wrong, in my opinion to demand one or even to
          expect one, the book is well written and if you take the time to read
          it and the earlier posts, alot of your questions will be answered. As
          for the profit off such a video, again, as was stated, if you are in
          this for the money, you will never succeed. You need a pure heart,
          free of corruption, patience and a positive mind set for a cell to
          work for you. Fall short in any of the above items and your cell will
          not work. (Perhaps that is the true underlying reason I haven't built
          a cell yet, no faith in me) The best advice still, is go make your own
          cell. If you have trouble or it doesn't work, come back and ask
          questions here, everyone thus far has been very friendly and willing
          to help when they could.

          Since I have said my piece, have a good night all. And happy celling

          Bill.
        • rencells
          G day Bill, thanks Mate, I appreciate that. Goodies at ya Ren ... chatting ... that ... read ... As ... in ... will ... built ... own ... willing ... celling
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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            G'day Bill,
            thanks Mate, I appreciate that.
            Goodies at ya
            Ren

            --- In joecellfreeenergydevice@yahoogroups.com, "joricbrahamas"
            <JORICBRAHAMAS@H...> wrote:
            > I know this post is a long time after the fact concerning making a
            > video of a cell in process of being constructed and it also being a
            > functioning cell so I hope all will forgive me.
            > Opinions were asked for and here is mine... Ren, stand your
            > ground. I am not a do'er yet but I know one main thing from
            chatting
            > with you gentlemen when I could find the time and that is you learn
            > most from doing. If some one wants to make a video of a cell being
            > constructed, that is their choice, as is the decision of sharing
            that
            > video. It is morally wrong, in my opinion to demand one or even to
            > expect one, the book is well written and if you take the time to
            read
            > it and the earlier posts, alot of your questions will be answered.
            As
            > for the profit off such a video, again, as was stated, if you are
            in
            > this for the money, you will never succeed. You need a pure heart,
            > free of corruption, patience and a positive mind set for a cell to
            > work for you. Fall short in any of the above items and your cell
            will
            > not work. (Perhaps that is the true underlying reason I haven't
            built
            > a cell yet, no faith in me) The best advice still, is go make your
            own
            > cell. If you have trouble or it doesn't work, come back and ask
            > questions here, everyone thus far has been very friendly and
            willing
            > to help when they could.
            >
            > Since I have said my piece, have a good night all. And happy
            celling
            >
            > Bill.
          • ashtweth_nihilistic
            i think i remeber some one saying that they would think that people wouldnt be appreciative of the postage from the videos contents? in this point and click
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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              i think i remeber some one saying that they would think that people
              wouldnt be appreciative of the postage from the videos contents?

              in this point and click digital age, why not just upload it, i can
              provide the space, thats costs nothing.

              regards

              ashtweth
            • Daniel Moeck
              Hi Bill, I, as the one who started this thread, appreciate hearing your opinion even though it is different from my own. S, if I respond to this post from you
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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                Hi Bill,

                I, as the one who started this thread, appreciate hearing your opinion even
                though it is different from my own. S, if I respond to this post from you
                to Ren with more of my own thoughts please don't take it personally.


                At 08:29 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:

                >I know this post is a long time after the fact concerning making a
                >video of a cell in process of being constructed and it also being a
                >functioning cell so I hope all will forgive me.
                > Opinions were asked for and here is mine... Ren, stand your
                >ground. I am not a do'er yet but I know one main thing from chatting
                >with you gentlemen when I could find the time and that is you learn
                >most from doing. If some one wants to make a video of a cell being
                >constructed, that is their choice, as is the decision of sharing that
                >video. It is morally wrong, in my opinion to demand one or even to
                >expect one, the book is well written and if you take the time to read
                >it and the earlier posts, alot of your questions will be answered.


                I never heard anyone "demand" or even "expect" a video from Ren. I
                certainly didn't. I was just telling him as honestly as I know how that it
                would be a tremendous help to visually oriented people like myself if we
                could actually see some of the things he talks about. My sense is that Ren
                tends to under-value his accomplishments, probably thinking that it was so
                easy anyone could have done it. Well, as a hands-on person who has tried it
                quite diligently, I can tell you that I found it very difficult to figure
                out why I didn't always get the same results as Ren or Alex. I am saying
                that a lot of important detail can get lost in words and when the distance
                is too far to pay a visit in person, any visual image at all can be worth a
                great deal.


                > As
                >for the profit off such a video, again, as was stated, if you are in
                >this for the money, you will never succeed. You need a pure heart,
                >free of corruption, patience and a positive mind set for a cell to
                >work for you. Fall short in any of the above items and your cell will
                >not work.


                Or, maybe that mind set IS exactly why a lot of people fail with the Joe
                Cell. Until you actually succeed how can you say what kind of altruistic
                motives are required? There are a large handful of "free-energy", or,
                energy-saving devices available for people like us to experiment with that
                DO work every time, (as long as you follow the instructions). I don't think
                anyone can make that same claim for the Joe Cell.

                I have been to some Tesla conferences where I saw first hand a working
                Brown's Gas generator and a working GEET device. I was very leery about
                trying either one with just the written instructions to follow. But once I
                saw them in person and could talk to the inventors it became 100 times
                easier. Countless important little details were instantly clarified and I
                had no problem building my own after that. (actually, I mentioned my failed
                GEET attempt a few days ago. It only failed because I couldn't afford to
                buy the plans for my extra-large engine. I tried to extrapolate dimensions
                from the free lawnmower size GEET plans to a 460 cubic inch engine and I
                guess I missed the proper proportions by a mile).

                If it is Ren's special mindset that allows him to succeed where most others
                fail then let us see his face as he works with his cell. When you are
                called to bring truth and enlightenment to the world you can't be modest.
                You show your face, speak your truth, and let those with eyes to see and
                ears to hear learn from it.

                The conclusion I want to draw is that all of these other inventors charge
                money for their books and videos and they continue to be invited back to
                Tesla-type conferences because their technologies work. I doubt if 25% of
                the people at these conferences have even heard of the Joe Cell. And I
                doubt that more than 25% of that 25% believe it has any merit whatsoever.
                It just doesn't even hit the radar screen for most researchers here in the
                US as being anything more than a tall tale.

                MONEY is the means of conveyance that allows these technologies to develop
                and spread, not altruism. If no profit was involved no significant
                conveyance could happen. If you have a dirty mind about money than I guess
                that's between you and God. But if you want to be taken seriously by the
                rest of the world (And, anyone who cares about the collective future of the
                human race HAS to want clean free-energy alternatives), you have to use
                money. Don't we all use money every day now just to survive? Either you
                earn that money by offering something of value, or you beg the money from
                someone else who had to earn it. Have I missed another alternative (like
                inheriting a fortune, maybe? Ooh, more guilt!). Either the Joe Cell
                phenomenon is real enough that people would pay to learn all about it by
                seeing it actually working on video, or, it belongs exactly where it is now.

                I know someone who has taken a vow of poverty. In the 10 years that I have
                known him I have never seen him do a single day of actual labor the way the
                rest of us have to. He travels around talking about other people's
                innovations (he has none of his own) and then lives (quite comfortably most
                of the time) on the financial donations from his audiences. Is this the way
                we should all be living?? Someone has to do the actual labor and they have
                to get paid so they can put food on their table too. Innovators are
                laborers too. If you don't allow the best of them some kind of financial
                return for their investment of time and energy then you are not likely to
                ever see a better world than the one we have today.


                >(Perhaps that is the true underlying reason I haven't built
                >a cell yet, no faith in me) The best advice still, is go make your own
                >cell. If you have trouble or it doesn't work, come back and ask
                >questions here, everyone thus far has been very friendly and willing
                >to help when they could.
                >
                >Since I have said my piece, have a good night all. And happy celling
                >
                >Bill.


                Carrots and Cellery to all, and to all a good nite!

                Daniel


                --
                Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005
              • Cosku
                Money charging for conferences,books or instruction on conferances are normal acts,according to my point of view. That is how an inventor (lets say a service)
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 14, 2005
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                  Money charging for conferences,books or instruction on conferances
                  are normal acts,according to my point of view. That is how an
                  inventor (lets say a service) survive. You can sell information to
                  others and others can be more succesfull with those new gathered
                  previously tried ideas. For example a modern Kung-Fu master can
                  teach you Kung-fu by getting some money for lessons. There is
                  nothing wrong here. Teacher spent some time and energy with you and
                  you gained a different ability. That is how i think. on the other
                  hand it is not a must for an inventor to prepare a video for unknown
                  technology to make whole planet hear news.


                  --- In joecellfreeenergydevice@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Moeck
                  <dmoeck@e...> wrote:
                  > Hi Bill,
                  >
                  > I, as the one who started this thread, appreciate hearing your
                  opinion even
                  > though it is different from my own. S, if I respond to this post
                  from you
                  > to Ren with more of my own thoughts please don't take it
                  personally.
                  >
                  >
                  > At 08:29 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:
                  >
                  > >I know this post is a long time after the fact concerning making a
                  > >video of a cell in process of being constructed and it also being
                  a
                  > >functioning cell so I hope all will forgive me.
                  > > Opinions were asked for and here is mine... Ren, stand
                  your
                  > >ground. I am not a do'er yet but I know one main thing from
                  chatting
                  > >with you gentlemen when I could find the time and that is you
                  learn
                  > >most from doing. If some one wants to make a video of a cell being
                  > >constructed, that is their choice, as is the decision of sharing
                  that
                  > >video. It is morally wrong, in my opinion to demand one or even to
                  > >expect one, the book is well written and if you take the time to
                  read
                  > >it and the earlier posts, alot of your questions will be answered.
                  >
                  >
                  > I never heard anyone "demand" or even "expect" a video from Ren. I
                  > certainly didn't. I was just telling him as honestly as I know how
                  that it
                  > would be a tremendous help to visually oriented people like myself
                  if we
                  > could actually see some of the things he talks about. My sense is
                  that Ren
                  > tends to under-value his accomplishments, probably thinking that
                  it was so
                  > easy anyone could have done it. Well, as a hands-on person who has
                  tried it
                  > quite diligently, I can tell you that I found it very difficult to
                  figure
                  > out why I didn't always get the same results as Ren or Alex. I am
                  saying
                  > that a lot of important detail can get lost in words and when the
                  distance
                  > is too far to pay a visit in person, any visual image at all can
                  be worth a
                  > great deal.
                  >
                  >
                  > > As
                  > >for the profit off such a video, again, as was stated, if you are
                  in
                  > >this for the money, you will never succeed. You need a pure heart,
                  > >free of corruption, patience and a positive mind set for a cell to
                  > >work for you. Fall short in any of the above items and your cell
                  will
                  > >not work.
                  >
                  >
                  > Or, maybe that mind set IS exactly why a lot of people fail with
                  the Joe
                  > Cell. Until you actually succeed how can you say what kind of
                  altruistic
                  > motives are required? There are a large handful of "free-energy",
                  or,
                  > energy-saving devices available for people like us to experiment
                  with that
                  > DO work every time, (as long as you follow the instructions). I
                  don't think
                  > anyone can make that same claim for the Joe Cell.
                  >
                  > I have been to some Tesla conferences where I saw first hand a
                  working
                  > Brown's Gas generator and a working GEET device. I was very leery
                  about
                  > trying either one with just the written instructions to follow.
                  But once I
                  > saw them in person and could talk to the inventors it became 100
                  times
                  > easier. Countless important little details were instantly
                  clarified and I
                  > had no problem building my own after that. (actually, I mentioned
                  my failed
                  > GEET attempt a few days ago. It only failed because I couldn't
                  afford to
                  > buy the plans for my extra-large engine. I tried to extrapolate
                  dimensions
                  > from the free lawnmower size GEET plans to a 460 cubic inch engine
                  and I
                  > guess I missed the proper proportions by a mile).
                  >
                  > If it is Ren's special mindset that allows him to succeed where
                  most others
                  > fail then let us see his face as he works with his cell. When you
                  are
                  > called to bring truth and enlightenment to the world you can't be
                  modest.
                  > You show your face, speak your truth, and let those with eyes to
                  see and
                  > ears to hear learn from it.
                  >
                  > The conclusion I want to draw is that all of these other inventors
                  charge
                  > money for their books and videos and they continue to be invited
                  back to
                  > Tesla-type conferences because their technologies work. I doubt if
                  25% of
                  > the people at these conferences have even heard of the Joe Cell.
                  And I
                  > doubt that more than 25% of that 25% believe it has any merit
                  whatsoever.
                  > It just doesn't even hit the radar screen for most researchers
                  here in the
                  > US as being anything more than a tall tale.
                  >
                  > MONEY is the means of conveyance that allows these technologies to
                  develop
                  > and spread, not altruism. If no profit was involved no significant
                  > conveyance could happen. If you have a dirty mind about money than
                  I guess
                  > that's between you and God. But if you want to be taken seriously
                  by the
                  > rest of the world (And, anyone who cares about the collective
                  future of the
                  > human race HAS to want clean free-energy alternatives), you have
                  to use
                  > money. Don't we all use money every day now just to survive?
                  Either you
                  > earn that money by offering something of value, or you beg the
                  money from
                  > someone else who had to earn it. Have I missed another alternative
                  (like
                  > inheriting a fortune, maybe? Ooh, more guilt!). Either the Joe
                  Cell
                  > phenomenon is real enough that people would pay to learn all about
                  it by
                  > seeing it actually working on video, or, it belongs exactly where
                  it is now.
                  >
                  > I know someone who has taken a vow of poverty. In the 10 years
                  that I have
                  > known him I have never seen him do a single day of actual labor
                  the way the
                  > rest of us have to. He travels around talking about other people's
                  > innovations (he has none of his own) and then lives (quite
                  comfortably most
                  > of the time) on the financial donations from his audiences. Is
                  this the way
                  > we should all be living?? Someone has to do the actual labor and
                  they have
                  > to get paid so they can put food on their table too. Innovators
                  are
                  > laborers too. If you don't allow the best of them some kind of
                  financial
                  > return for their investment of time and energy then you are not
                  likely to
                  > ever see a better world than the one we have today.
                  >
                  >
                  > >(Perhaps that is the true underlying reason I haven't built
                  > >a cell yet, no faith in me) The best advice still, is go make
                  your own
                  > >cell. If you have trouble or it doesn't work, come back and ask
                  > >questions here, everyone thus far has been very friendly and
                  willing
                  > >to help when they could.
                  > >
                  > >Since I have said my piece, have a good night all. And happy
                  celling
                  > >
                  > >Bill.
                  >
                  >
                  > Carrots and Cellery to all, and to all a good nite!
                  >
                  > Daniel
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                  > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                  > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005
                • joricbrahamas
                  First, Ren, don t mention it. Second, Daniel Moeck, It is our differences which make us useful to one another. Am I offended by your reply (did I take it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 15, 2005
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                    First, Ren, don't mention it.

                    Second, Daniel Moeck,
                    It is our differences which make us useful to one another.
                    Am I offended by your reply (did I take it personally)? No, not even
                    close. I appreciate the time you took to post it infact.
                    Further response from me, true, a video was never demanded,
                    perhaps not even expected. Though from my reading of the initial post
                    that started this line of responses, I felt it was somewhat pushy and
                    even slightly antagonistic.
                    Sorry, perhaps I over reacted.
                    I don't fully know about experimenting yet, I haven't done it.
                    With my wife traveling to Russia to visit family, my hobbies are
                    always on the back burner. Though living in Pennsylvania and reading
                    these posts, I feel as though I may be the only person for several
                    hundred miles who would like to try a Joe Cell, I too will have no one
                    to confer with visually.
                    Even when I begin my experiments, I doubt that I will get results
                    similar to Alex or Ren. There is far too much to take into account.
                    Unrealized by most people on the planet, nearly everything you can do
                    could be considered an art form or science. Take for example archery.
                    It seems simple but there is so much more than put an arrow in the
                    bow, pull the string and let er fly. Draw length, arrow weight, arrow
                    length, stance, arrow material, tip weight, draw weight, distance to
                    target, wind speed and direction, your grip on the bow, release of
                    string, humidity, temperature, bow harmonics and the list goes on are
                    all added in to the perfect shot. Pick anything in your life and stop
                    to observe what all really and truly occurs to make it happen or make
                    it repeatable and reliable and you will begin to see. Nothing is
                    "1-2-3 done" simple.
                    I mentioned making a profit too. Yes, we use money everyday, and
                    we need it to survive, sadly. It is how we judge others and show them
                    their worth to us and how they show us our value to them. The problem
                    is, with a Joe Cell, if you are trying to use it for profit, the Cell
                    probably won't like you and therefore won't work. Since you mentioned
                    God, (I will keep this brief as my views on God are very unusual) we
                    are here to help our fellow man, as Christ was written to have done.
                    When we seek profit, we are no longer acting out of love, we are
                    acting out of greed. If the Joe Cell is using the "life force" or "God
                    force" to work, does it not follow that it will avoid those who are
                    driven by any desire other than to help their fellow man and their
                    natural surroundings? This is an additional reason I haven't started
                    my experiments yet. I began my search for the perfect Joe Cell with
                    profit in mind and have realized that I would fail with that in my
                    heart. I am seeking to grow, spiritually, in order to correct my life.
                    I have never been a bad man though I see now that if I wish to come
                    closer to God, I must avoid the ties of material wealth. You might be
                    amazed at what a liberating experience forsaking material possesions
                    can be. I have only experienced it once when I made a solid decision
                    to sell my video collection. Once I freed myself of the attachment to
                    it, I felt lighter and more free. Money and material posessions are
                    what prevent us from finding God, what a wicked world we now live in.
                    Does this idea have merit? How are we expected to be taken
                    seriously by the rest of the world? That is for each individual to
                    find out for themself. As for the rest of the world taking us
                    seriously, who cares. If you know it in your heart to be true and to
                    work, then you needn't prove it to anyone but yourself. It is your
                    opinoin that should matter most in your life, not anyone elses.
                    Kudos to the friend of yours who took the vow of poverty, since
                    he is still alive. I feel sorry for him as physical labor also has a
                    greater purpose and also brings us closer to God and our fellow human
                    being. Working for a living like most of us do, I understand what it
                    means to earn your way. However, I have seen rich people, those who
                    have always been rich and never had to really work, and they seem to
                    be oblivious to the trials and hardships we often face. If I had only
                    one wish, it would be that they be stripped of their wealth and
                    privalage and join the real world with the rest of us and stop
                    treating less fortunate persons like dirt. It is hard enough, some of
                    the work we must do, with out being un-appreciated for what we do.
                    Like CEOs who think of laborers as just an expendable commodity. They
                    get rich off our work and efforts and constantly complain that their
                    profit margin isn't high enough all the while having a six figure
                    salary compared to our low five figure income. Enough said or I will
                    really go off on a rant.
                    Oh well, I don't mean to offend. It is just that I see people
                    getting rich from the efforts of others and they live in big homes
                    with fancy cars and pay no mind to the people who make them rich and
                    allow their luxurious life style to continue. People like me, I work
                    for a living and barely get by while the CEOs at my place of
                    employment fly first class everywhere and I can barely put gas in my
                    car to get to work. Is money a problem? Damn straight it is. The
                    working class has been totally undervalued!
                    Well, I guess I failed at not ranting. Sorry, I just feel it
                    needed to be said.

                    Best wishes to all of you. Bill
                  • Daniel Moeck
                    Bill, Hey, I appreciate your rants. I do agree that the Joe Cell has a definite connection to life force energies some how, and for that reason alone seems
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 16, 2005
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                      Bill,

                      Hey, I appreciate your rants. I do agree that the Joe Cell has a definite
                      connection to "life force" energies some how, and for that reason alone
                      seems to merit these discussions about money and profit from it's
                      development. All that matters for each of us at the end of this life are
                      the spiritual values we have managed to incorporate into our souls. So just
                      talking about the Joe Cell and money may actually have more real lasting
                      value for a lot of us than ever getting one built or operational.

                      I feel geographically isolated too. As far as I know the closest member of
                      this list to me is 400 miles away. I hope to meet up with him someday to
                      compare real ideas because I know of no one else any closer who has the
                      slightest interest in it.

                      I relied more on the Horses Mouth #1 video than most of this group probably
                      did. Alex's book was a great reference for actual specifications, but I
                      really feel I got more value out of visually seeing and hearing what Joe
                      had done with his early cells. As I've been saying, I see a number of
                      different successful inventions in the totality of what Joe has let slip
                      out. I happen to feel drawn toward aspects of it that I think Alex and Ren
                      have perhaps discarded as useless distractions. So if I seem to be off on
                      my own tangent with a lot of what I say it doesn't mean I am too lazy to
                      follow their instructions to the letter. I am just doing what makes the
                      most sense to me and if I never get to the same end result as them at least
                      I am getting closer to myself. That's what feels most important to me.

                      Just to fill you in more on where I'm coming from about money and
                      spirituality, I was raised in a very strict Christian Baptist home where
                      money was clearly understood to be the root of all evil. I have always
                      taken my relationship to God very seriously. As a young adult I began to
                      broaden my walk with God by exploring various "new age" channelers, etc.
                      One of them saw all of the inventions I was incubating in the back of my
                      mind and actually scolded me for not actively developing them. I felt so
                      incredibly guilty about possibly profiting from any one of them that I was
                      ignoring them hoping they would go away.

                      Eventually I came to accept these 3 important principles that were somehow
                      left out of my religious upbringing:
                      1) Jesus was not a Christian nor did he go to church. I now find it easier
                      to understand and follow his teachings by avoiding those people, just as he
                      did.
                      2) Jesus's parable about the unfaithful servant who buried the money his
                      master had put in his care was about earning PROFITS, was it not? I was
                      born into this life with an inventive mind, not just to let it languish,
                      but to use it as an investment. And investments are deficits if they don't
                      earn a profit.
                      3)Money, of itself, is neither good nor bad. It can only be bad when in the
                      hands of someone who believes deeply in LACK. When you really come to know
                      God you no longer see lack in anything. Lack is nothing but a misconception
                      of reality, be it lack of money or lack of energy. When you truly
                      understand this money will no longer be scarce in your life and it will be
                      nearly impossible for you to do anything but God's work with it.

                      It truly doesn't matter how many millions of dollars the greedy CEO's make
                      when you see beyond the common human belief in lack. It's all just monopoly
                      money anyway. It has next to nothing to do with true wealth. And it can
                      never really make them happy because they will never succeed in getting it
                      all. Money is just an imperfect symbol for energy and abundant free energy
                      floods every square inch of the universe, (except for the ego-controlled
                      hyperspace in some human minds). The search for "free-energy", whether one
                      ever finds it or not, has great potential value because it teaches us that
                      reality is truly unlimited. Lack only exists in the ego-conscious mind that
                      sees itself as separate from God. End rant.

                      Daniel




                      At 09:13 PM 6/15/2005, you wrote:


                      > First, Ren, don't mention it.
                      >
                      >Second, Daniel Moeck,
                      > It is our differences which make us useful to one another.
                      > Am I offended by your reply (did I take it personally)? No, not even
                      >close. I appreciate the time you took to post it infact.
                      > Further response from me, true, a video was never demanded,
                      >perhaps not even expected. Though from my reading of the initial post
                      >that started this line of responses, I felt it was somewhat pushy and
                      >even slightly antagonistic.
                      >Sorry, perhaps I over reacted.
                      > I don't fully know about experimenting yet, I haven't done it.
                      >With my wife traveling to Russia to visit family, my hobbies are
                      >always on the back burner. Though living in Pennsylvania and reading
                      >these posts, I feel as though I may be the only person for several
                      >hundred miles who would like to try a Joe Cell, I too will have no one
                      >to confer with visually.
                      > Even when I begin my experiments, I doubt that I will get results
                      >similar to Alex or Ren. There is far too much to take into account.
                      >Unrealized by most people on the planet, nearly everything you can do
                      >could be considered an art form or science. Take for example archery.
                      >It seems simple but there is so much more than put an arrow in the
                      >bow, pull the string and let er fly. Draw length, arrow weight, arrow
                      >length, stance, arrow material, tip weight, draw weight, distance to
                      >target, wind speed and direction, your grip on the bow, release of
                      >string, humidity, temperature, bow harmonics and the list goes on are
                      >all added in to the perfect shot. Pick anything in your life and stop
                      >to observe what all really and truly occurs to make it happen or make
                      >it repeatable and reliable and you will begin to see. Nothing is
                      >"1-2-3 done" simple.
                      > I mentioned making a profit too. Yes, we use money everyday, and
                      >we need it to survive, sadly. It is how we judge others and show them
                      >their worth to us and how they show us our value to them. The problem
                      >is, with a Joe Cell, if you are trying to use it for profit, the Cell
                      >probably won't like you and therefore won't work. Since you mentioned
                      >God, (I will keep this brief as my views on God are very unusual) we
                      >are here to help our fellow man, as Christ was written to have done.
                      >When we seek profit, we are no longer acting out of love, we are
                      >acting out of greed. If the Joe Cell is using the "life force" or "God
                      >force" to work, does it not follow that it will avoid those who are
                      >driven by any desire other than to help their fellow man and their
                      >natural surroundings? This is an additional reason I haven't started
                      >my experiments yet. I began my search for the perfect Joe Cell with
                      >profit in mind and have realized that I would fail with that in my
                      >heart. I am seeking to grow, spiritually, in order to correct my life.
                      >I have never been a bad man though I see now that if I wish to come
                      >closer to God, I must avoid the ties of material wealth. You might be
                      >amazed at what a liberating experience forsaking material possesions
                      >can be. I have only experienced it once when I made a solid decision
                      >to sell my video collection. Once I freed myself of the attachment to
                      >it, I felt lighter and more free. Money and material posessions are
                      >what prevent us from finding God, what a wicked world we now live in.
                      > Does this idea have merit? How are we expected to be taken
                      >seriously by the rest of the world? That is for each individual to
                      >find out for themself. As for the rest of the world taking us
                      >seriously, who cares. If you know it in your heart to be true and to
                      >work, then you needn't prove it to anyone but yourself. It is your
                      >opinoin that should matter most in your life, not anyone elses.
                      > Kudos to the friend of yours who took the vow of poverty, since
                      >he is still alive. I feel sorry for him as physical labor also has a
                      >greater purpose and also brings us closer to God and our fellow human
                      >being. Working for a living like most of us do, I understand what it
                      >means to earn your way. However, I have seen rich people, those who
                      >have always been rich and never had to really work, and they seem to
                      >be oblivious to the trials and hardships we often face. If I had only
                      >one wish, it would be that they be stripped of their wealth and
                      >privalage and join the real world with the rest of us and stop
                      >treating less fortunate persons like dirt. It is hard enough, some of
                      >the work we must do, with out being un-appreciated for what we do.
                      >Like CEOs who think of laborers as just an expendable commodity. They
                      >get rich off our work and efforts and constantly complain that their
                      >profit margin isn't high enough all the while having a six figure
                      >salary compared to our low five figure income. Enough said or I will
                      >really go off on a rant.
                      > Oh well, I don't mean to offend. It is just that I see people
                      >getting rich from the efforts of others and they live in big homes
                      >with fancy cars and pay no mind to the people who make them rich and
                      >allow their luxurious life style to continue. People like me, I work
                      >for a living and barely get by while the CEOs at my place of
                      >employment fly first class everywhere and I can barely put gas in my
                      >car to get to work. Is money a problem? Damn straight it is. The
                      >working class has been totally undervalued!
                      > Well, I guess I failed at not ranting. Sorry, I just feel it
                      >needed to be said.
                      >
                      >Best wishes to all of you. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
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                      >
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                    • joricbrahamas
                      Nice. Have you ever read Tony Bushbys works? (The Secret in the Bible or The Bible Fraud) Fascinating reading, truly. May I ask what is LACK as you use it?
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 17, 2005
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                        Nice.
                        Have you ever read Tony Bushbys works? (The Secret in the Bible or The
                        Bible Fraud) Fascinating reading, truly.

                        May I ask what is "LACK" as you use it?
                      • Daniel Moeck
                        Hi Bill, ... I have not read it. I will watch for it. ... I use the word lack as in the book A Course In Miracles which I believe is the modern day
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 18, 2005
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                          Hi Bill,

                          At 10:00 PM 6/17/2005, you wrote:

                          >Nice.
                          >Have you ever read Tony Bushbys works? (The Secret in the Bible or The
                          >Bible Fraud) Fascinating reading, truly.


                          I have not read it. I will watch for it.


                          >May I ask what is "LACK" as you use it?


                          I use the word "lack" as in the book "A Course In Miracles" which I believe
                          is the modern day channeled teachings of Jesus. In ACIM Jesus says in very
                          clear terms that we really were created in the image and likeness of God
                          the father. That means that as spirit each of us is perfect and unlimited
                          like God. We each have a "divine will" as spirit, which is in perfect
                          oneness with God and therefore never even wants to do anything other than
                          God's perfect will. BUT, long ago we were invited to explore the
                          concept/illusion of being self-sufficient and separate from God, and
                          everyone reading this is among the group of spirits who accepted the
                          challenge. We soon developed individual egos which became like HAL the
                          self-aware computer on "2001: A Space Odyssey". Our egos have hijacked our
                          spirits and most of us still don't even know it!

                          I'm not just off on a wild tangent with this. I've been talking about the
                          collective human belief in lack on other free-energy forums as well as this
                          one because I have come to believe that it is the single biggest obstacle
                          to replacing today's stone-age energy technologies with clean free abundant
                          energy for all. The ego-controlled human mind is locked in a dark dungeon
                          and has forgotten what the outside world really looks like. Normally it
                          only sees, through a very narrow little crack under the door, what the ego
                          allows it to see. And since the ego's only agenda is to stay alive by
                          staying in control of the mind it reveals the world to be in short supply
                          of:energy, money, space, natural beauty, nice people, etc. This keeps the
                          individual focused on competition and survival. And for the few who have
                          plenty of money there are endless carnal pleasures to keep them distracted
                          as well. In other words, the "secret government" or "powers that be" who
                          appear to have such an iron grip on us all right now are really only the
                          outer reflection of our own egos. They allow us everything that tends to
                          keep us distracted from real spiritual awakening, but nothing that might
                          aid us in awakening.

                          As we each begin to take responsibility for overcoming our own egos (ACIM
                          is an excellent guide book for doing this) our true power and wisdom will
                          begin to come back to us and all outer threats will fall away. As one
                          begins to see through the illusion that they are lacking anything at all,
                          their outer world will start to reflect the same back to them. So if they
                          are engaged in trying to gain the free-energy and independence they
                          want/need through a Joe Cell they will begin to awaken to new insights that
                          will either show them how to improve the cell, or, that may shift their
                          attentions to a whole different technology. Or, they may be called to leave
                          that whole endeavor to someone else so they can take up some other service
                          to their fellow humans that they hadn't even thought of yet.

                          The point is, the shortest definition of ego is: "insanity". The ego is
                          insane because it purposely sees lack where there is none and it invests
                          everything it's host owns into that illusion in order to save it's own
                          neck. The ego will very literally kill the body of it's host to save
                          itself, which is something only an insane person could think of.

                          I hope someone reading this is inspired to just look for a moment at how
                          perfectly the whole universe runs without batteries or generators and how
                          it recycles absolutely everything into new life over and over eternally.
                          And ask yourself, why can't mankind do the same, especially if he is
                          created in the image and likeness of God? If the answer isn't "ego" then
                          what else could it be? "Evil"? If it even exists outside of our own egos
                          then didn't God create that too? The truth is that we each have dominion
                          over all evil, just as does God our father, and as we move into this new
                          age of enlightenment we are each being tested to prove it. I see the
                          efforts toward personal energy independence in today's politically
                          oppressive atmosphere as a major part of that test.

                          End rant.

                          Daniel





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