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Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

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  • Culadasa
    Hi Michael, Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these past life memories actually belonged to you?
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
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      Hi Michael,

      Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

      On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

      Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

      There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

      Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

      You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

      Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

      Much love and joy to you,
      Culadasa



      From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
      To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
      Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

       
      In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
      and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

      In Method 1, around page 12:

      Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

      In Method 2, around page 19:

      The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

      Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

      With Metta,

      Mike
      --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
      > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
      > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
      > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
      > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
      > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
      > Big Hug,
      > Daniel
      >
      > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
      > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
      > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
      >
      >
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      > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
      > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Good day,
      >
      >
      >
      > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
      >
      >
      >
      > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
      >
      > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
      > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
      >
      >
      >
      > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
      >
      >
      >
      > I would love to read your takes on this one.
      >
      >
      >
      > With Metta,
      >
      > Mike
      >



    • Marcello Spinella
      Culadasa, You just blew my mind. :-) Everything you said made sense and was along the lines of my understanding, but you eloquently elaborated it much more
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Culadasa,

        You just blew my mind. :-)

        Everything you said made sense and was along the lines of my understanding, but you eloquently elaborated it much more deeply than I had understood. I remember some teacher (I think Joseph Goldstein) saying in a recorded talk that people sometimes make a self out of consciousness, but that's just yet another empty process that arises and passes based on causes and conditions, and therefore can't constitute a self any more than any of the other khandhas

        This is mixing and matching, but I always liked this very by Naropa:

        "Concerning what is called Mahamudra
        All things are your own mind.
        Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept; 
        Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness.  

        This mind, as well, is a mere movement of attention
        That has no self-nature, being merely a gust of wind.
        Empty of identity, like space. 
        All things, like space, are equal."


        Thank you very much.

        Marcello


        On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Culadasa <culadasa@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Michael,

        Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

        On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

        Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

        There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

        Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

        You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

        Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

        Much love and joy to you,
        Culadasa



        From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
        To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
        Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

         
        In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
        and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

        In Method 1, around page 12:

        Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

        In Method 2, around page 19:

        The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

        Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

        With Metta,

        Mike
        --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
        > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
        > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
        > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
        > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
        > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
        > Big Hug,
        > Daniel
        >
        > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
        > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
        > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
        > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Good day,
        >
        >
        >
        > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
        >
        >
        >
        > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
        >
        > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
        > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
        >
        >
        >
        > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
        >
        >
        >
        > I would love to read your takes on this one.
        >
        >
        >
        > With Metta,
        >
        > Mike
        >






        --

        ‎"Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity." --Simone Weil


        Professional Website:  http://sites.google.com/site/marcellospinella/

        Facebook Meditation Page: https://www.facebook.com/yoga9v

      • Michael Chu
        If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

          From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
          To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
          Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

           
          Hi Michael,

          Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

          On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

          Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

          There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

          Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

          You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

          Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

          Much love and joy to you,
          Culadasa


          From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
          To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
          Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

           
          In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
          and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

          In Method 1, around page 12:

          Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

          In Method 2, around page 19:

          The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

          Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

          With Metta,

          Mike
          --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
          > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
          > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
          > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
          > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
          > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
          > Big Hug,
          > Daniel
          >
          > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
          > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
          > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
          > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Good day,
          >
          >
          >
          > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
          >
          >
          >
          > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
          >
          > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
          > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
          >
          >
          >
          > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
          >
          >
          >
          > I would love to read your takes on this one.
          >
          >
          >
          > With Metta,
          >
          > Mike
          >





        • Culadasa
          Michael, I don t believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.




            From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

             
            If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

            From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

             
            Hi Michael,

            Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

            On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

            Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

            There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

            Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

            You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

            Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

            Much love and joy to you,
            Culadasa


            From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
            To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
            Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

             
            In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
            and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

            In Method 1, around page 12:

            Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

            In Method 2, around page 19:

            The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

            Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

            With Metta,

            Mike
            --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
            > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
            > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
            > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
            > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
            > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
            > Big Hug,
            > Daniel
            >
            > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
            > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
            > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
            > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Good day,
            >
            >
            >
            > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
            >
            >
            >
            > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
            >
            > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
            > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
            >
            >
            >
            > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
            >
            >
            >
            > I would love to read your takes on this one.
            >
            >
            >
            > With Metta,
            >
            > Mike
            >







          • Michael Chu
            My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors. ________________________________ From: Culadasa To:
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors.

              From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
              To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

               
              Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.



              From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
              To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

               
              If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

              From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
              To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

               
              Hi Michael,

              Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

              On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

              Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

              There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

              Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

              You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

              Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

              Much love and joy to you,
              Culadasa


              From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
              To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
              Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

               
              In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
              and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

              In Method 1, around page 12:

              Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

              In Method 2, around page 19:

              The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

              Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

              With Metta,

              Mike
              --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
              > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
              > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
              > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
              > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
              > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
              > Big Hug,
              > Daniel
              >
              > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
              > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
              > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
              > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Good day,
              >
              >
              >
              > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
              >
              >
              >
              > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
              >
              > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
              > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
              >
              >
              >
              > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
              >
              >
              >
              > I would love to read your takes on this one.
              >
              >
              >
              > With Metta,
              >
              > Mike
              >









            • Culadasa
              So you were just teasing! Thank goodness. Well, it really worked. I was worrying about you. Lots of laughs, Culadasa ________________________________ From:
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                So you were just teasing! Thank goodness.
                Well, it really worked. I was worrying about you.

                Lots of laughs,
                Culadasa

                From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:00 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                 
                My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors.

                From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                 
                Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.



                From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                 
                If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

                From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                 
                Hi Michael,

                Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

                On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

                Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

                There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

                Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

                You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

                Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

                Much love and joy to you,
                Culadasa


                From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
                Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                 
                In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

                In Method 1, around page 12:

                Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

                In Method 2, around page 19:

                The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

                Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

                With Metta,

                Mike
                --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                > Big Hug,
                > Daniel
                >
                > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
                > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
                > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Good day,
                >
                >
                >
                > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                >
                >
                >
                > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                >
                > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                >
                >
                >
                > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                >
                >
                >
                > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                >
                >
                >
                > With Metta,
                >
                > Mike
                >











              • Michael Chu
                You still should be worried, because I was only partially teasing.  Thank you for being patient and most helpful. ________________________________ From:
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 15, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  You still should be worried, because I was only partially teasing.  Thank you for being patient and most helpful.

                  From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                  To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:24 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  So you were just teasing! Thank goodness.
                  Well, it really worked. I was worrying about you.

                  Lots of laughs,
                  Culadasa
                  From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                  To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:00 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors.

                  From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                  To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.



                  From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                  To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

                  From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                  To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  Hi Michael,

                  Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

                  On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

                  Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

                  There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

                  Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

                  You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

                  Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

                  Much love and joy to you,
                  Culadasa


                  From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                  To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
                  Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                   
                  In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                  and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

                  In Method 1, around page 12:

                  Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

                  In Method 2, around page 19:

                  The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

                  Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

                  With Metta,

                  Mike
                  --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                  > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                  > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                  > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                  > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                  > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                  > Big Hug,
                  > Daniel
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                  > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
                  > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Good day,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                  >
                  > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                  > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > With Metta,
                  >
                  > Mike
                  >













                • Daniel B.
                  I am hearing the Empire s theme music as the background for the Buddha s enlightenment. ... From: Michael Chu Subject: Re: [jhana_insight]
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 16, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am hearing the Empire's theme music as the background for the Buddha's enlightenment.

                    --- On Thu, 3/15/12, Michael Chu <mjchu76@...> wrote:

                    From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                    Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic
                    To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Thursday, March 15, 2012, 7:42 PM

                     

                    If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

                    From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                    To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
                    Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                     
                    Hi Michael,

                    Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

                    On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

                    Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

                    There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

                    Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

                    You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

                    Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

                    Much love and joy to you,
                    Culadasa


                    From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                    To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
                    Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                     
                    In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                    and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

                    In Method 1, around page 12:

                    Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

                    In Method 2, around page 19:

                    The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

                    Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

                    With Metta,

                    Mike
                    --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                    > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                    > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                    > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                    > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                    > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                    > Big Hug,
                    > Daniel
                    >
                    > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                    > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
                    > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Good day,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                    >
                    > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                    > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > With Metta,
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >





                  • drbf2
                    Mike, I have read Achaan Lee s stuff and I am not very impressed by his conclusions. He is making the same mistake that so many yogis make: it happened to me
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 16, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Mike,

                      I have read Achaan Lee's stuff and I am not very impressed by his conclusions. He is making the same mistake that so many yogis make: "it happened to me this way and so it must be so for everyone else." The fact is that he sees this or that color of light at this or that chakra, and that experience became associated with some power of other. But another yogi may experience a different color, or a different location, or access the same experience in a completely different way. For example, a friend since his magga-phala experience, sees  all nimitas as colorless, just crystallizations of pure awareness into which he can project whatever experience he chooses. And he chooses to understand these all as confabulations of the unconscious mind. 

                      But if you want to believe in rebirth, then I suggest you look at it this way: imagine that you are sitting at the edge of a dock. You are watching waves go by to break on the shore. It looks like there are waves going by (ie. continuity of a being from life to life) but in reality all is happening is the undulating of the water's surface giving the illusion of a wave. What continues is a pattern, but even the pattern changes from moment to moment, as it crosses through new material, the pattern to is influenced and modified. All there is in all this becoming called "rebirth"  are different dimensions of energy, all frequencies of consciousness , interacting and creating multi-dimensional patterns that themselves constantly change. It happens all by itself, is ownerless and has no continuity in either substance or pattern, like the waves on the water. What you feel yourself to be, the subjective personhood of Mike,  is actually an effect of this process.  But this is only the "tip" of a much more complex process of energies that includes your brain/body/unconscious mind, and the environment of which you are only a wave. 

                      XX

                      Daniel

                      --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                      > and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.
                      >
                      > In Method 1, around page 12:
                      >
                      > Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.
                      >
                      > In Method 2, around page 19:
                      >
                      > The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.
                      >
                      >
                      > Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.
                      >
                      > With Metta,
                      >
                      > Mike
                      > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." drbf2@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                      > > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                      > > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                      > > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                      > > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                      > > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                      > > Big Hug,
                      > > Daniel
                      > >
                      > > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@ mjchu76@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: mjchu76@ mjchu76@
                      > > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                      > > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
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                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" mjchu76@
                      > > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.comReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Good day,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                      > >
                      > > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                      > > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > With Metta,
                      > >
                      > > Mike
                      > >
                      >
                    • Culadasa
                      Dearest Michael, Beloved friend, brother of my heart, and spiritual son. You are not going to be reincarnated. Get over it. Its time to move on. Life is not
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 16, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dearest Michael,

                        Beloved friend, brother of my heart, and spiritual son.

                        You are not going to be reincarnated. Get over it. Its time to move on.
                        Life is not some meaningless process that ends when you die. Get over it. Everything you feel, think, say, or do has consequences, and you can't escape them.
                        You are not destined to become the organically purified effluent of some cosmic septic tank. Relax. There is important work to be done, and you are the one to do it.

                        Just accept this and devote yourself to figuring out first hand, through your own experience, what is really going on. It's nothing you've expected, but I guarantee, you're going to like it. So do the practice.

                        In joy,
                        Culadasa


                        From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:48 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        You still should be worried, because I was only partially teasing.  Thank you for being patient and most helpful.

                        From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:24 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        So you were just teasing! Thank goodness.
                        Well, it really worked. I was worrying about you.

                        Lots of laughs,
                        Culadasa
                        From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:00 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors.

                        From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.



                        From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

                        From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                        To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        Hi Michael,

                        Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

                        On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

                        Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

                        There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

                        Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

                        You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

                        Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

                        Much love and joy to you,
                        Culadasa


                        From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                        To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
                        Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                         
                        In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                        and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

                        In Method 1, around page 12:

                        Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

                        In Method 2, around page 19:

                        The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

                        Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

                        With Metta,

                        Mike
                        --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                        > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                        > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                        > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                        > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                        > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                        > Big Hug,
                        > Daniel
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                        > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
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                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
                        > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Good day,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                        >
                        > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                        > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > With Metta,
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >















                      • Michael Chu
                        Dear Daniel and Culadasa, I can only understand what you have tirelessly trying to explain to me at a fairly superficial level. I am grateful for your kind
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 19, 2012
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                          Dear Daniel and Culadasa,

                          I can only understand what you have tirelessly trying to explain to me at a fairly superficial level. I am grateful for your kind efforts to shed light on this matter.  Until, I can collect more data by developing deeper concentrations, I will remain similarly ignorant but open-minded on this subject.

                          It is very difficult for me to trust people in general as most of us behave with the same fundamental program of greed, anger, and delusion. Although I trust myself generally more so than most, I am merely a diluted version of the most unethical and blinded beings. The triple gems and my practice are the refuges I have left. And Majjhima Nikaya has been one of the few key stone sources Pali Canons that I have learned to trust, in which rebirth is described explicitly and implicitly.  Until I have extracted all the usefulness of the words from the canon or I have become enlighten, I will continue to rely on the words from the canons.  Buddha is long dead, and this is what I have to work with... [I am not implying I don't trust you and your kind advices.  Your kindness and wisdom are always respected, and deeply appreciated.]
                           
                          With Metta,
                          Mike
                           
                          From: "drbf2" <drbf2@...>
                          Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:43:07 -0000
                          To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                          ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                           

                          Mike,

                          I have read Achaan Lee's stuff and I am not very impressed by his conclusions. He is making the same mistake that so many yogis make: "it happened to me this way and so it must be so for everyone else." The fact is that he sees this or that color of light at this or that chakra, and that experience became associated with some power of other. But another yogi may experience a different color, or a different location, or access the same experience in a completely different way. For example, a friend since his magga-phala experience, sees  all nimitas as colorless, just crystallizations of pure awareness into which he can project whatever experience he chooses. And he chooses to understand these all as confabulations of the unconscious mind. 

                          But if you want to believe in rebirth, then I suggest you look at it this way: imagine that you are sitting at the edge of a dock. You are watching waves go by to break on the shore. It looks like there are waves going by (ie. continuity of a being from life to life) but in reality all is happening is the undulating of the water's surface giving the illusion of a wave. What continues is a pattern, but even the pattern changes from moment to moment, as it crosses through new material, the pattern to is influenced and modified. All there is in all this becoming called "rebirth"  are different dimensions of energy, all frequencies of consciousness , interacting and creating multi-dimensional patterns that themselves constantly change. It happens all by itself, is ownerless and has no continuity in either substance or pattern, like the waves on the water. What you feel yourself to be, the subjective personhood of Mike,  is actually an effect of this process.  But this is only the "tip" of a much more complex process of energies that includes your brain/body/unconscious mind, and the environment of which you are only a wave. 

                          XX

                          Daniel

                          --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                          > and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.
                          >
                          > In Method 1, around page 12:
                          >
                          > Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.
                          >
                          > In Method 2, around page 19:
                          >
                          > The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.
                          >
                          >
                          > Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.
                          >
                          > With Metta,
                          >
                          > Mike
                          > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." drbf2@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                          > > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                          > > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                          > > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                          > > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                          > > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                          > > Big Hug,
                          > > Daniel
                          > >
                          > > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@ mjchu76@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From: mjchu76@ mjchu76@
                          > > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                          > > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" mjchu76@
                          > > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.comReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Good day,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                          > >
                          > > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                          > > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > With Metta,
                          > >
                          > > Mike
                          > >
                          >


                        • Michael Chu
                          Thank you for your kindness:-)  I will practice diligently! ________________________________ From: Culadasa To:
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 19, 2012
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                            Thank you for your kindness:-)  I will practice diligently!

                            From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:57 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            Dearest Michael,

                            Beloved friend, brother of my heart, and spiritual son.

                            You are not going to be reincarnated. Get over it. Its time to move on.
                            Life is not some meaningless process that ends when you die. Get over it. Everything you feel, think, say, or do has consequences, and you can't escape them.
                            You are not destined to become the organically purified effluent of some cosmic septic tank. Relax. There is important work to be done, and you are the one to do it.

                            Just accept this and devote yourself to figuring out first hand, through your own experience, what is really going on. It's nothing you've expected, but I guarantee, you're going to like it. So do the practice.

                            In joy,
                            Culadasa

                            From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:48 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            You still should be worried, because I was only partially teasing.  Thank you for being patient and most helpful.

                            From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 7:24 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            So you were just teasing! Thank goodness.
                            Well, it really worked. I was worrying about you.

                            Lots of laughs,
                            Culadasa
                            From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:00 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            My playfulness had taken over:-)   sorry.  Please point out my errors.

                            From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            Michael, I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that. Certainly not me. You are making a gigantic and totally unjustified leap to totally unfounded conclusions. The false view you are clinging to is that you are one little piece of you-know-what in a cosmic cesspool of blind beings. You can most definitely opt out of believing that nonsense if you choose. I highly recommend it.



                            From: Michael Chu <mjchu76@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            If it is true that we are one with the universe of blind beings, then this would be many trillion times worse than when Luke discovered Vader was his father.   

                            From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                            To: "jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com" <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:40 PM
                            Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            Hi Michael,

                            Daniel has given you some excellent advice. Consider his third point: How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?

                            On what basis do you assume that the manifold past lives the Buddha recollected were "his", in some linear, separate, and individual sense? Are you assuming that the Insight gained by the Buddha in seeing past lives was an Insight into the truth of reincarnation? If so, then he didn't discover anything new, he was only confirming a commonly held belief of his time - and all the statements attributed to him in the passage you quoted are completely consistent with what the Brahmins were already teaching.

                            Could it be instead, that by reviewing many, many human lives, the real Insight he gained was into a deeper truth about human suffering, the causes of suffering, how suffering can end, and the way to end suffering? Perhaps this review of past lives actually gave him an Insight into human nature and the nature of the mind, one that completely refutes the illusion of separate self, rather than confirming it? That would certainly fit much better with everything else he taught during his life. Might not the review of many other, non-human, lives have perhaps allowed him to extend this same Insight to all existent beings of every sort?

                            There is absolutely no basis at all for anyone to assume that the past lives the Buddha saw, or that Ajahn Lee saw, or that I have seen, or that you will see if you do the practice, belong to some kind of separate self. The only reason that anyone would ever make that assumption is that they are already predisposed to accept the idea of reincarnation. It is an entirely ungrounded assumption, based only on a pre-existing belief or a desperate desire to believe in anything that will reify the personal self.

                            Remember, a Stream Entrant, by the Buddha's definition, is someone who has overcome belief in the reality of the personal self, in any form. This is one of the Three Fetters that has been overcome. A Stream Entrant knows with absolute certainty that, whatever might be reborn, it is definitely not the personal self we think we are. And, therefore, that the idea of reincarnation of a personal self or "soul" is a falsehood. But the inherent feeling that one is a separately existing entity will keep coming back until one becomes an Arhat, even though one no longer believes in a personal self. This is why Stream Entrants (and not just Buddhist stream entrants, either) so often try to find something else that they can attach their lingering sense of a separate selfhood to, since it can no longer attach to personality. Consciousness is a popular candidate for this (see the Mahatanhasankhya Sutta, MN 38, about Sati the fisherman's son). Consciousness lends itself well to being framed as Universal, or Cosmic, or God Consciousness, all in an effort to accommodate the inherent sense of a separate self into the Stream Entrant's realizations of the illusoriness of the personal self, and the interconnectedness of everything. This is also a wrong view (although not quite as wrong), because even though "consciousness as the true self" is being intellectually described as "universal", it is still being intuitively conceived of as separate. But there is no way that a true Stream Entrant can continue to believe in personal rebirth or reincarnation.

                            You have expressed your own true brilliance in your last comment: "Instead of spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself."

                            Yes, Michael, you can recollect a few past lives yourself, and when you do, you can jump to an uncritical conclusion that, "Wow, reincarnation must be true!" and stop there. Or else you can continue to repeat these experiences, examining them more closely until you realize that, in fact, they are no more about "you" than was the last movie you saw. When that happens, you will have to ask yourself, "How, then, can I be accessing the memories of some other person's life?" An excellent question! It's a question that applies equally well to the associated power of knowing the minds of others, and to the divine eye and divine ear as well. What common explanation might lie behind all of these? Then you might consider Daniel's 4th point as well: "Is this just a projection of my own mind?" Or better yet, you might wonder if both things could be true, that the "memories" are indeed coming from another's mind, and therefore are not an illusion, but somehow it also involves a projection of "your" mind. Those questions will lead you to a genuine Insight into no-self, interconnectedness, dependent origination, and emptiness. That is the way for you to truly follow directly in the footsteps of the Buddha.

                            Much love and joy to you,
                            Culadasa


                            From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                            To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM
                            Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic

                             
                            In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                            and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.

                            In Method 1, around page 12:

                            Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath — the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.

                            In Method 2, around page 19:

                            The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.

                            Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.

                            With Metta,

                            Mike
                            --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." <drbf2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                            > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                            > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                            > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                            > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually
                            belonged to you?
                            > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                            > Big Hug,
                            > Daniel
                            >
                            > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: mjchu76@... <mjchu76@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                            > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            >  
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                            >
                            >
                            > Another aspect of this equation I did
                            not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" <mjchu76@...>
                            > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the
                            rebirth topic
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Good day,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many
                            id=misspell-55 class=mark>aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                            >
                            > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of
                            body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" he sees beings passing
                            > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Unless the translation is
                            seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I would love to read your takes on this one.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > With Metta,
                            >
                            > Mike
                            >

















                          • bingo_ridley
                            Joining in briefly ... At the simplest level of practice and understanding ... but also fundamental ... is that all thoughts, observations, etc., are illusory
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 20, 2012
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                              Joining in briefly ...

                              At the simplest level of practice and understanding ... but also fundamental ... is that all thoughts, observations, etc., are illusory - mirage-like and fleeting. This dislodges the necessity of any belief. What I did yesterday or 3 lifetimes ago have a similar value to me at this moment. I process them both the same way.

                              Reincarnation is what one could consider a "non-essential" understanding. It is not a governance on behavior, a requirement to enlightenment, or a precept. It is also subject to interpretation. It could be literal, or it could be understood that each cluster of ideas is a new lifetime, a new world.

                              Reincarnation could have been devised to influence behavior, similar to heaven/hell, or it could have been someone's experience, or have evolved as a blend of the two. My own, or anyone's experience, are just that - experiences. This ability to grasp all that exists or happens or is said or is thought, as one fundamental action - this puts the question in perspective. This gets me back to the business at hand, which is direct knowledge and the constant evaporation of illusion.

                              One last thought - realization and the communication of it does evolve. The job of the teacher is not to tether students to a particular past, but to arrive at the core of the teachings. The #1 priority is to shed the illusion that is the cause of suffering. For this reason modern teachers, without dilution of the essence, and in their need to enlighten students without distraction or speculation, might discard reincarnation from their curriculum.

                              Steve

                              --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Michael Chu <mjchu76@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Daniel and Culadasa,
                              >
                              > I can only understand what you have tirelessly trying to explain to me at a fairly superficial level. I am grateful for your kind efforts to shed light on this matter.  Until, I can collect more data by developing deeper concentrations, I will remain similarly ignorant but open-minded on this subject.
                              >
                              > It is very difficult for me to trust people in general as most of us behave with the same fundamental program of greed, anger, and delusion. Although I trust myself generally more so than most, I am merely a diluted version of the most unethical and blinded beings. The triple gems and my practice are the refuges I have left. And Majjhima Nikaya has been one of the few key stone sources Pali Canons that I have learned to trust, in which rebirth is described explicitly and implicitly.  Until I have extracted all the usefulness of the words from the canon or I have become enlighten, I will continue to rely on the words from the canons.  Buddha is long dead, and this is what I have to work with... [I am not implying I don't trust you and your kind advices.  Your kindness and wisdom are always respected, and deeply appreciated.]
                              >
                              > With Metta,
                              > Mike
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >
                              > From: "drbf2" <drbf2@...>
                              > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:43:07 -0000
                              > To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                              > ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Revisiting the rebirth topic
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > I have read Achaan Lee's stuff and I am not very impressed by his conclusions. He is making the same mistake that so many yogis make: "it happened to me this way and so it must be so for everyone else." The fact is that he sees this or that color of light at this or that chakra, and that experience became associated with some power of other. But another yogi may experience a different color, or a different location, or access the same experience in a completely different way. For example, a friend since his magga-phala experience, sees  all nimitas as colorless, just crystallizations of pure awareness into which he can project whatever experience he chooses. And he chooses to understand these all as confabulations of the unconscious mind. 
                              >
                              > But if you want to believe in rebirth, then I suggest you look at it this way: imagine that you are sitting at the edge of a dock. You are watching waves go by to break on the shore. It looks like there are waves going by (ie. continuity of a being from life to life) but in reality all is happening is the undulating of the water's surface giving the illusion of a wave. What continues is a pattern, but even the pattern changes from moment to moment, as it crosses through new material, the pattern to is influenced and modified. All there is in all this becoming called "rebirth"  are different dimensions of energy, all frequencies of consciousness , interacting and creating multi-dimensional patterns that themselves constantly change. It happens all by itself, is ownerless and has no continuity in either substance or pattern, like the waves on the water. What you feel yourself to be, the subjective personhood of Mike,  is actually an effect of this
                              > process.  But this is only the "tip" of a much more complex process of energies that includes your brain/body/unconscious mind, and the environment of which you are only a wave. 
                              >
                              > XX
                              >
                              > Daniel
                              > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "mjchu76" <mjchu76@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > In the book, Keeping the Breath in Mind
                              > > and Lessons in Samadhi, a translation of Ajaan Lee's Meditation Method 1 and 2 by Thanisarro. There are evidences from what seems like Ajaan Lee's own experiences that verified the previous quote I made on MN 119.
                              > >
                              > > In Method 1, around page 12:
                              > >
                              > > Then slowly bring your attention inward, focusing it on the various aspects of the breath â€" the important aspects that can give rise to intuitive powers of various kinds: clairvoyance, clairaudience, the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where different people and animals are reborn after death, and knowledge of the various elements or potentials that are connected with, and can be of use to, the body. These elements come from the bases of the breath.
                              > >
                              > > In Method 2, around page 19:
                              > >
                              > > The mind, too, will be heightened, and will have the power to develop the eye of intuition (ñana-cakkhu): the ability to remember previous lives, the ability to know where living beings are reborn after they die, and the ability to cleanse the heart of the fermentations of defilement. If you have your wits about you, you can receive these guests and put them to work in your home.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Instead spending so much time on speculations, I should be focusing on my meditation and figure it out myself.
                              > >
                              > > With Metta,
                              > >
                              > > Mike
                              > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel B." drbf2@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes indeed, this is one of the points I would have made. How much of this actually comes from the mouth of Gotama Siddhartha? How much was added in later years by pious devotees who were in the "religion business?"
                              > > > Here are some other questions for your consideration. Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that the Buddha actually did say this, and did indeed have this experience:
                              > > > 1/ When the Buddha is speaking of the aggregates, the signs of being and dependent origination, is he using language in the same way as when he is speaking of of events transpiring to or with people in time/space? If not, what is the difference?
                              > > > 2/ What is it that would be reborn?
                              > > > 3/ How would you know that these "past life memories" actually belonged to you?
                              > > > 4/ How would you know they were real as opposed to projections of the concentrated mind?
                              > > > Big Hug,
                              > > > Daniel
                              > > >
                              > > > --- On Mon, 3/12/12, mjchu76@ mjchu76@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > From: mjchu76@ mjchu76@
                              > > > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
                              > > > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Date: Monday, March 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
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                              > > > Another aspect of this equation I did not think of before is whether if the Pali MN is entirely reliable. Looks like I have lots of home work to do. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®From: "mjchu76" mjchu76@
                              > > > Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:24:40 -0000To: jhana_insight@...: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Subject: [jhana_insight] Revisiting the rebirth topic
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                              > > > Good day,
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                              > > >
                              > > > I like to direct a question for Daniel and Culadasa. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Majjhima Nikaya, Number 119, I found the following as Number 8 and 9 of the 10 benefits derived from mindfulness immersed in the body:
                              > > >
                              > > >
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                              > > > [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
                              > > >
                              > > > [9] "He sees â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human
                              > â€" he sees beings passing
                              > > > away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Unless the translation is seriously wrong. The above clearly showing Bhudda's words about beings reborning through countless aeons. However, your explanations from previous posts seem to contradict this.
                              > > >
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                              > > >
                              > > > I would love to read your takes on this one.
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                              > > > With Metta,
                              > > >
                              > > > Mike
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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