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Stream Entry

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  • mjchu76
    Dear Culadasa and Daniel, Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 1, 2012
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      Dear Culadasa and Daniel,

      Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.

      Michael Chu
    • Daniel B.
      Hi Mike, According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of consciousness taking the Void
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 1, 2012
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        Hi Mike,

        According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." This is the classical commentarial language to describe it (awkward in my opinion) and consists of the cessation of volitional mental formations (sankhara-khanda) AND the cessation of vedana/sensation. This is consistent with my own experience. What is not clear is if this experience requires the cessation of perception as well. It seems to me that if perceptions really and truly completely ceased, then we would have nirodha samapati. Now I know that this is what many Mahasi students describe, and your brother is of the opinion that Mahasi magga-phala and phala are actually nirodha. I am not sure about this really. It seems to me there is a subtle something that remains in that state. Even the Mahasi reports sometimes use language that suggests this, for example: "suddenly consciousness became submerged" submerged in what? Perhaps perception remains in a very latent state, and in a very subtle way consciousness is perceiving its own emptiness. In the end this is all doctrine and metaphor anyway. It is a condition of consciousness-without-an-object, where in there is certainly no thought, memory, intention, or feeling.

        That's my take. I am curious to know what Culadasa might have to say about this. 

        metta,

        Daniel

        --- On Wed, 2/1/12, mjchu76 <mjchu76@...> wrote:

        From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
        Subject: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
        To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 4:07 PM

         

        Dear Culadasa and Daniel,

        Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.

        Michael Chu

      • Culadasa
        Hello Daniel and Michael, I m happy to join this discussion. I d just like to make one point clear. We are discussing the magga-phala event, not Stream Entry.
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 2, 2012
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          Hello Daniel and Michael,

          I'm happy to join this discussion.

          I'd just like to make one point clear. We are discussing the magga-phala event, not Stream Entry. I bring this up because Stream Entry identifies a permanent change in a person. I have been finding that some people undergo that permanent change without having had a memorable magga-phala experience. Perhaps they've had it but don't remember it, but they can't even point to any particular day or week when the change happened, when they became different from what they once were. Furthermore, I have encountered people who describe what sounds like magga-phala, and who have had a teacher verify it as such, but who fail to manifest the characteristics of a Stream Entrant as described in the Suttas and commentaries.

          Then, with regard to the so-called magga-phala event, which may or may not always herald Stream Entry:
          1. My experience agrees with what Thanissaro says in that the mind is free of intention during the experience. But I also agree with other sources that it is a cessation of all mental formations, not just the volitional formations called intention.
          2. Although designated separately in the classical formulation of the khandas, I find perceptions to be a kind of mental formation as well, and there is no perception as part of that experience. I'll get to what happens in place of perception in a moment.
          These two taken together mean that the "discriminating mind", mano-vijnana, which is responsible for every of karma-producing and karma-resultant mental formation, either temporarily suspends its function, or at least it ceases to project any content into consciousness.

          3. Sensation, which is actually rupa, not vedana, definitely ceases. This means that the other five "sensory minds" either suspend their functions, or else cease to project content into consciousness.
          4. The vedana - feelings of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral - are a different kind of mental function. Physical vedana arise in the sensory minds in association with sense percepts - the mental representations formed in response to raw sensory input. Mental vedana arise in the discriminating mind in association with mental formations, including perceptions. Both mental and physical vedana are absent in magga and phala. The non-experience of vedana is either because there are no vedana because the sensory and discriminating minds have suspended all function, or the sensory and discriminating minds cease to project vedana into consciousness when they cease to project everything else.
          5. Consciousness does not cease during magga-phala. Some methods of practice that put all the emphasis on tracking objects of consciousness lead to reports of "gaps" in consciousness, but practices that emphasize the mind observing itself do not. But the object of consciousness in magga-phala appears to be the simple fact of consciousness itself, which makes it into "consciousness without an object" - something more-or-less inconceivable to the ordinary mind, but shockingly real to the mind in magga-phala. This is the meaning of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." Consciousness has no other object but itself.

          When magga-phala takes the form of a "pure consciousness experience" or a "consciousness without an object" that can be recalled afterwards, there is an apparent "perception" associated with it. But this perception is an after-the-fact mental formation derived from the imprint left on the mind by the experience. On the other hand, I think in the Mahasi practice consciousness is often in a "latent" state during magga-phala, in that it produces no imprint in the mind that can be recalled afterwards, and therefore no after-the-fact "perception" is generated. But the only way for the magga-phala experience to reprogram the mind's deep intuitive view of reality so that someone becomes a Stream Entrant is for there to be some kind of "consciousness" that conveys this profound experience to those deep unconscious parts of the mind. In the end, the main difference between these two kinds of magga-phala is just whether or not it leaves an imprint in the mind that can be processed afterwards. Based on first hand experience with both kinds, this is the best explanation I have been able to come up with. I do conjecture that there may be one other difference - the "pure consciousness experience" is more effective in bringing about the permanent reprogramming of the mind than is the "gap" experience. I don't know if this connection to efficacy is causal or synchronic, but either way it seems to be related to the mode of practice preceding the magga-phala.

          The nature of the nirodha is puzzling. I agree, that on the surface, the description of nirodha as the "cessation of feeling (vedana) and perception (sanna)" makes it sound like magga-phala, especially where there is no "perception". But keep in mind that the perception, when it is present, is an after-the-fact phenomenon resulting from an imprint left behind by the magga-phala experience. That actually makes both kinds of magga-phala sound like nirodha, since there is neither feeling nor perception in the experience itself. But the texts assure us this is absolutely not the case.

          So lets take another look at it. Nirodha is also described as "nibbana without remainder", as distinguished from every other instance of nibbana, which, of course, magga and phala are examples of. This seems to be telling us that nirodha is different from any other form of nibbana (except parinibbana, of course) in some important way. I am inclined to see that as somehow being related to whether or not the sensory and discriminating minds completely cease to function, or just cease to project content into consciousness.

          If all magga and phala are nibbana of a sort where sensations, feelings, perceptions, thoughts and every other sort mental formations cease to enter consciousness, but continue at some unconscious level to some degree or another, that would fit the description of a nibbana with remainder. That kind of nibbana is certainly an "extinguishing" of craving, of mental formations, and of suffering. And it is certainly enough to provide the mind with some dramatically different data upon which to base its intuitive worldview in the future. Therefore it is enough to account for the irreversible changes of Path attainment.

          On the other hand, if nirodha is nibbana in which all mental function is suspended completely, that would explain why it is called "without remainder". The complete cessation of sensory mind function would explain why the yogi in nirodha is impossible to arouse. It would, indeed, resemble the nibbana following the death of the body in every way except that the body is not actually dead. And it could, perhaps, also help us to understand why this nirodha is said to be only achievable by arhats and anagamis. This last, by the way, is a also a very strong argument against equating any other experience with nirodha samapati. 

          In joy,
          Culadasa

          From: Daniel B. <drbf2@...>
          To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 12:39 AM
          Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry

           
          Hi Mike,

          According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." This is the classical commentarial language to describe it (awkward in my opinion) and consists of the cessation of volitional mental formations (sankhara-khanda) AND the cessation of vedana/sensation. This is consistent with my own experience. What is not clear is if this experience requires the cessation of perception as well. It seems to me that if perceptions really and truly completely ceased, then we would have nirodha samapati. Now I know that this is what many Mahasi students describe, and your brother is of the opinion that Mahasi magga-phala and phala are actually nirodha. I am not sure about this really. It seems to me there is a subtle something that remains in that state. Even the Mahasi reports sometimes use language that suggests this, for example: "suddenly consciousness became submerged" submerged in what? Perhaps perception remains in a very latent state, and in a very subtle way consciousness is perceiving its own emptiness. In the end this is all doctrine and metaphor anyway. It is a condition of consciousness-without-an-object, where in there is certainly no thought, memory, intention, or feeling.

          That's my take. I am curious to know what Culadasa might have to say about this. 

          metta,

          Daniel

          --- On Wed, 2/1/12, mjchu76 <mjchu76@...> wrote:

          From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
          Subject: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
          To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 4:07 PM

           
          Dear Culadasa and Daniel,

          Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.

          Michael Chu



        • drbf2
          Hello Culadasa, Mike, You clearly have devoted a lot of reflection to this topic. I understand how time consuming such writing can be. So thank you very much
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 3, 2012
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            Hello Culadasa, Mike,

            You clearly have devoted a lot of reflection to this topic. I understand how time consuming such writing can be. So thank you very much for taking so much of your time  in your response.

            Because my own experience corresponds so strongly to yours (as far as I can tell) I find it difficult to argue against the position of magga-phala as including the cessation of perception, however you choose to define this. And yet, I feel the questions should be raised as to whether is this so, along with other possibilities. Of course when we discuss things that are not in our experience, we have only hypotheses to go on, and I am not so willing to quote scripture as authority in the absence of clear insight and experience (knowledge and vision/ ñana-dasana) although I always take both scripture and tradition (commentaries) into consideration. I feel the question of historicity and accuracy of the Pali suttas is just too questionable to justify a stance of sola scriptura.

            So, I think we should ask: Does a magga-phala or phala experience need to be fully absorptive in nature? This is what we are describing, I believe, when we speak of the cessation of perception, since the absorption is just of consciousness into its own empty nature, which would preclude the functioning of sañña. Consider that the yogi training jhana is able to perceive his or her nimitta with intense lucidity without absorption, sometimes even just walking down the street. Why must the yogi, whose mind is now capable of cognizing emptiness, need to suspend sensory awareness to have this experience? I see no logical reason why the cognition of emptiness would require the cessation of perception, since emptiness is an ever present reality, even in perception. When I ask myself this question, the best answer I can come up with is simply that the mind resting in emptiness is in a sense a side effect of the momentary cessation of grasping and delusion in the mind when it completely penetrates the four noble truths, but only in he particular case of true path consciousness. In other words, true path consciousness is in the penetration of the truths, not simply in the ability of consciousness to release and experience its own emptiness, absorptively or not. We cannot claim stream entry unless we have known the end of suffering, and we cannot know the end of suffering if we have not experienced the cessation of impermanence, and grasping in the mind, both of which must be present for perception to occur. This is the momentary "cutting off" that the commentaries speak of. This is the best I can do with this subject, and probably more attention that it deserves anyway.

            As to whether or not the Mahasi yogis are experiencing "gaps" due to subsiding of the mind into latency, is something I cannot confirm or deny. My sense is that this is complicated by the existence of a spectrum in the magga-phala and phala experience of depth and power. I question the "one magga-phala moment = one stage" model.  I am inclined to think this is an invention of the commentarialists, starting with the Abhidhamma, which is reckoned by scholars to date to about 200 BCE. It is interesting to note that the Ashtanga Yoga tradition teaches that the mind's repeated and prolonged abidance in nirodha is what gradually over time purifies it and burns the seeds of samskaras (latent tendencies).

            As to the question of nirodha, I question if nirodha is nibbana "without remainder." My understanding is that nibbana with remainder, saupadi-sesa-nibbana, refers to the condition of the arhant before death, and that anupadi-sesa nibbana, nibbana without the grasping groups, is another word for parinibbana upon the death of the arhant. As to whether or not that is experientially the same as nirodha samapati, I could not say, and the scriptures are not clear on this point either. But it does make a kind of sense as you point out.

            As to the question of difference between magga-phala and nirodha, if one cannot detect experienctially the difference between what you are calling magga-phala and nirodha, then why would we suppose there is any difference at all? Rousability might have more to do with jhanic depth than with mythical stories of yogis mistaken for tree stumps.  I am more inclined to think that we have got the understanding of nirodha correct, but that we need to look more carefully at what is meant by magga and phala. One thing is clear to me: the suttas do not use these terms in the way they are used in the Abhidhamma or the commentaries. In the Abhidhamma, the "eight types of men" make a distinction between the obtainer of magga, and the obtainer of phala on the basis of a single mind-moment in the cognitive series of awakening. It seems to me, from what I can assess of Gotama Siddhartha's character, this is exactly the kind of intellectual exercise the Buddha would never have bothered with or approved. In several places the scriptures speak of one "standing on the path to" one of the four stages, as if each of the four paths were an entire stage or phase of practice. Again, I hold the scripture lightly, for reasons of my own skepticism, but I believe we need to take a fresh look here in our detective work.

            My own thinking inclines toward the possibility that each path begins when the yogi breaks through to a new (first time) and then deeper (subsequent paths) experience of emptiness (what makes for deeper is another conversation) and that "phala" represents the work it takes to integrate this new "perception" into one's life, and show the "fruition of it" in the form of the eradication of defilement. In other words, nirodha is a tool for achieving phala in the fullest sense of the term. If this is true (and I only put this forth as a hypothesis) then the capacity to enter into a voidness absorption becomes the path or tool by which defilement is uprooted by repeated practice, along with other manifestation is normal waking consciousness of a process of integration, wherein one's full range of experience is also integrated into the new "knowledge and vision." In this way of looking at it, "nirodha" becomes deeper as its jhanic basis deepens, and deeper as well with each stage of the path. In other words, nirodha is actually a spectrum of experience, always involving cessation of preception. This is more organic and believable to me in terms of my understanding of the brain. The commentarialists were obsessed with categories and putting everything into neat boxes. This is not how life works, and all the "boxes" are more likely a cultural product than anything existing in reality, at least in my opinion. 

            As to the question of nirodha being attainable only by anagamis and arhants, this makes no sense to me at all. If the yogi has the genuine experience of voidness, and has mastered the necessary jhanic basis, then why should that door be closed? Nothing has been made clear to me about the necessary conditionality of this attainment to suggest this is true. I remember that several years ago, Mike's brother, William reported to us that in existing Chinese translations of other Pali language pitakas (no longer available except in Chinese) nirodha samapati is said to be available to all yogis who meet those two conditions.

            These are my thoughts, for now at least, and as usual subject to amendment, 

            best wishes and metta to all,

            Daniel

            --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Daniel and Michael,
            >
            > I'm happy to join this discussion.
            >
            >
            > I'd just like to make one point clear. We are discussing the magga-phala event, not Stream Entry. I bring this up because Stream Entry identifies a permanent change in a person. I have been finding that some people undergo that permanent change without having had a memorable magga-phala experience. Perhaps they've had it but don't remember it, but they can't even point to any particular day or week when the change happened, when they became different from what they once were. Furthermore, I have encountered people who describe what sounds like magga-phala, and who have had a teacher verify it as such, but who fail to manifest the characteristics of a Stream Entrant as described in the Suttas and commentaries.
            >
            > Then, with regard to the so-called magga-phala event, which may or may not always herald Stream Entry:
            >
            > 1. My experience agrees with what Thanissaro says in that the mind is free of intention during the experience. But I also agree with other sources that it is a cessation of all mental formations, not just the volitional formations called intention.
            >
            > 2. Although designated separately in the classical formulation of the khandas, I find perceptions to be a kind of mental formation as well, and there is no perception as part of that experience. I'll get to what happens in place of perception in a moment.
            > These two taken together mean that the "discriminating mind", mano-vijnana, which is responsible for every of karma-producing and karma-resultant mental formation, either temporarily suspends its function, or at least it ceases to project any content into consciousness.
            >
            >
            > 3. Sensation, which is actually rupa, not vedana, definitely ceases. This means that the other five "sensory minds" either suspend their functions, or else cease to project content into consciousness.
            >
            > 4. The vedana - feelings of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral - are a different kind of mental function. Physical vedana arise in the sensory minds in association with sense percepts - the mental representations formed in response to raw sensory input. Mental vedana arise in the discriminating mind in association with mental formations, including perceptions. Both mental and physical vedana are absent in magga and phala. The non-experience of vedana is either because there are no vedana because the sensory and discriminating minds have suspended all function, or the sensory and discriminating minds cease to project vedana into consciousness when they cease to project everything else.
            > 5. Consciousness does not cease during magga-phala. Some methods of practice that put all the emphasis on tracking objects of consciousness lead to reports of "gaps" in consciousness, but practices that emphasize the mind observing itself do not. But the object of consciousness in magga-phala appears to be the simple fact of consciousness itself, which makes it into "consciousness without an object" - something more-or-less inconceivable to the ordinary mind, but shockingly real to the mind in magga-phala. This is the meaning of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." Consciousness has no other object but itself.
            >
            >
            > When magga-phala takes the form of a "pure consciousness experience" or a "consciousness without an object" that can be recalled afterwards, there is an apparent "perception" associated with it. But this perception is an after-the-fact mental formation derived from the imprint left on the mind by the experience. On the other hand, I think in the Mahasi practice consciousness is often in a "latent" state during magga-phala, in that it produces no imprint in the mind that can be recalled afterwards, and therefore no after-the-fact "perception" is generated. But the only way for the magga-phala experience to reprogram the mind's deep intuitive view of reality so that someone becomes a Stream Entrant is for there to be some kind of "consciousness" that conveys this profound experience to those deep unconscious parts of the mind. In the end, the main difference between these two kinds of magga-phala is just whether or not it leaves an imprint in the mind that
            > can be processed afterwards. Based on first hand experience with both kinds, this is the best explanation I have been able to come up with. I do conjecture that there may be one other difference - the "pure consciousness experience" is more effective in bringing about the permanent reprogramming of the mind than is the "gap" experience. I don't know if this connection to efficacy is causal or synchronic, but either way it seems to be related to the mode of practice preceding the magga-phala.
            >
            > The nature of the nirodha is puzzling. I agree, that on the surface, the description of nirodha as the "cessation of feeling (vedana) and perception (sanna)" makes it sound like magga-phala, especially where there is no "perception". But keep in mind that the perception, when it is present, is an after-the-fact phenomenon resulting from an imprint left behind by the magga-phala experience. That actually makes both kinds of magga-phala sound like nirodha, since there is neither feeling nor perception in the experience itself. But the texts assure us this is absolutely not the case.
            >
            >
            > So lets take another look at it. Nirodha is also described as "nibbana without remainder", as distinguished from every other instance of nibbana, which, of course, magga and phala are examples of. This seems to be telling us that nirodha is different from any other form of nibbana (except parinibbana, of course) in some important way. I am inclined to see that as somehow being related to whether or not the sensory and discriminating minds completely cease to function, or just cease to project content into consciousness.
            >
            >
            > If all magga and phala are nibbana of a sort where sensations, feelings, perceptions, thoughts and every other sort mental formations cease to enter consciousness, but continue at some unconscious level to some degree or another, that would fit the description of a nibbana with remainder. That kind of nibbana is certainly an "extinguishing" of craving, of mental formations, and of suffering. And it is certainly enough to provide the mind with some dramatically different data upon which to base its intuitive worldview in the future. Therefore it is enough to account for the irreversible changes of Path attainment.
            >
            >
            > On the other hand, if nirodha is nibbana in which all mental function is suspendedcompletely, that would explain why it is called "without remainder". The complete cessation of sensory mind function would explain why the yogi in nirodha is impossible to arouse. It would, indeed, resemble the nibbana following the death of the body in every way except that the body is not actually dead. And it could, perhaps, also help us to understand why this nirodha is said to be only achievable by arhats and anagamis. This last, by the way, is a also a very strong argument against equating any other experience with nirodha samapati. 
            >
            > In joy,
            > Culadasa
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Daniel B. drbf2@...
            > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 12:39 AM
            > Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
            >
            >
            >  
            > Hi Mike,
            >
            > According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." This is the classical commentarial language to describe it (awkward in my opinion) and consists of the cessation of volitional mental formations (sankhara-khanda) AND the cessation of vedana/sensation. This is consistent with my own experience. What is not clear is if this experience requires the cessation of perception as well. It seems to me that if perceptions really and truly completely ceased, then we would have nirodha samapati. Now I know that this is what many Mahasi students describe, and your brother is of the opinion that Mahasi magga-phala and phala are actually nirodha. I am not sure about this really. It seems to me there is a subtle something that remains in that state. Even the Mahasi reports sometimes use language that suggests this, for example: "suddenly consciousness
            > became submerged" submerged in what? Perhaps perception remains in a very latent state, and in a very subtle way consciousness is perceiving its own emptiness. In the end this is all doctrine and metaphor anyway. It is a condition of consciousness-without-an-object, where in there is certainly no thought, memory, intention, or feeling.
            >
            > That's my take. I am curious to know what Culadasa might have to say about this. 
            >
            > metta,
            >
            > Daniel
            >
            > --- On Wed, 2/1/12, mjchu76 mjchu76@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > >From: mjchu76 mjchu76@...
            > >Subject: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
            > >To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            > >Date: Wednesday, February
            > 1, 2012, 4:07 PM
            > >
            > >
            > > 
            > >Dear Culadasa and Daniel,
            > >
            > >Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.
            > >
            > >Michael Chu
            > >
            > >
            >
          • mjchu76@yahoo.com
            Dear Daniel and Culadasa, Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. Are there reliable sources in the suttas or commentaries that clearly describe the
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 3, 2012
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              Dear Daniel and Culadasa,

              Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. Are there reliable sources in the suttas or commentaries that clearly describe the magga-phala event?

              Michael
              Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

              From: "Daniel B." <drbf2@...>
              Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 23:39:06 -0800 (PST)
              To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry

               

              Hi Mike,

              According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." This is the classical commentarial language to describe it (awkward in my opinion) and consists of the cessation of volitional mental formations (sankhara-khanda) AND the cessation of vedana/sensation. This is consistent with my own experience. What is not clear is if this experience requires the cessation of perception as well. It seems to me that if perceptions really and truly completely ceased, then we would have nirodha samapati. Now I know that this is what many Mahasi students describe, and your brother is of the opinion that Mahasi magga-phala and phala are actually nirodha. I am not sure about this really. It seems to me there is a subtle something that remains in that state. Even the Mahasi reports sometimes use language that suggests this, for example: "suddenly consciousness became submerged" submerged in what? Perhaps perception remains in a very latent state, and in a very subtle way consciousness is perceiving its own emptiness. In the end this is all doctrine and metaphor anyway. It is a condition of consciousness-without-an-object, where in there is certainly no thought, memory, intention, or feeling.

              That's my take. I am curious to know what Culadasa might have to say about this. 

              metta,

              Daniel

              --- On Wed, 2/1/12, mjchu76 <mjchu76@...> wrote:

              From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
              Subject: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
              To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 4:07 PM

               

              Dear Culadasa and Daniel,

              Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.

              Michael Chu

            • Culadasa
              Hi Michael, As far as I know, the first mention of it is in the Abhidhamma, compiled at least 2 centuries after the passing of the Buddha, as a part of the
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 4, 2012
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                Hi Michael,

                As far as I know, the first mention of it is in the Abhidhamma, compiled at least 2 centuries after the passing of the Buddha, as a part of the "moments of consciousness" description of mind. It isn't mentioned in the Suttas. It is discussed in the commentaries and the Vissudhimagga at length.

                Culadasa


                From: "mjchu76@..." <mjchu76@...>
                To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 12:19 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry

                 
                Dear Daniel and Culadasa,

                Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. Are there reliable sources in the suttas or commentaries that clearly describe the magga-phala event?

                Michael
                Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

                From: "Daniel B." <drbf2@...>
                Sender: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 23:39:06 -0800 (PST)
                To: <jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com>
                ReplyTo: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry

                 
                Hi Mike,

                According to the Mahasi teaching, and Taungpulu as well, the magga-phala event, as well as the phala state consist of "consciousness taking the Void as its object." This is the classical commentarial language to describe it (awkward in my opinion) and consists of the cessation of volitional mental formations (sankhara-khanda) AND the cessation of vedana/sensation. This is consistent with my own experience. What is not clear is if this experience requires the cessation of perception as well. It seems to me that if perceptions really and truly completely ceased, then we would have nirodha samapati. Now I know that this is what many Mahasi students describe, and your brother is of the opinion that Mahasi magga-phala and phala are actually nirodha. I am not sure about this really. It seems to me there is a subtle something that remains in that state. Even the Mahasi reports sometimes use language that suggests this, for example: "suddenly consciousness became submerged" submerged in what? Perhaps perception remains in a very latent state, and in a very subtle way consciousness is perceiving its own emptiness. In the end this is all doctrine and metaphor anyway. It is a condition of consciousness-without-an-object, where in there is certainly no thought, memory, intention, or feeling.

                That's my take. I am curious to know what Culadasa might have to say about this. 

                metta,

                Daniel

                --- On Wed, 2/1/12, mjchu76 <mjchu76@...> wrote:

                From: mjchu76 <mjchu76@...>
                Subject: [jhana_insight] Stream Entry
                To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012, 4:07 PM

                 
                Dear Culadasa and Daniel,

                Thanissaro Bhikkhu stated that stream entry is achieved when the mind is momentarily freed from any intention. I would love to read what you think about this.

                Michael Chu



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