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Re: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra

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  • Culadasa
    Hello Marcello, I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents. I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 9, 2010
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      Hello Marcello,

      I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
      I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.

      1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
      They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility)" (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
      [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]

      With regard to a):
      If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
      And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.

      With regard to b):
      Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.

      2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.

      With regard to a):
      A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.

      And with regard to b):
      Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha. 

      So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"

      Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
      With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
      - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
      - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
      - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
      - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.

      With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
      - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists".
      - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists".
      - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.

      You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
      I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
      If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.

      In the spirit of service,
      culadasa

      From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@...>
      To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
      Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra

       

      Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:

      1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.

      2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:

      "Homage to the state of great bliss!
      Concerning what is called Mahamudra
      All things are your own mind.
      Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
      Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "


      (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)

      So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?

      Or am I misunderstanding something here?

      Thanks,
      Marcello

      ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* *******
      *

      “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer”
                --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)

      ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********

      Website:  http://snurl. com/marcello


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    • Marcello Spinella
      Culadasa, Thank you very much. That really clarifies alot. I didn t know about the misery as a function of developing insight of anicca or anatta first, but it
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 9, 2010
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        Culadasa,

        Thank you very much. That really clarifies alot. I didn't know about the misery as a function of developing insight of anicca or anatta first, but it makes complete sense, whether the method of insight is vipassana or mahamudra. I'm not inclined toward or against any particular insight method, as long as I develop samatha first. At this point, it seems like the most sensible way to me. (I know I'm probably preaching to the choir in this forum.)

        It's somewhat unfortunate that so many Dhamma teachers, and well-known ones, don't emphasize this or make it clear.

        Marcello



        ***********************************************************************************

        “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer”
                  --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)

        ***********************************************************************************

        Website:  http://snurl.com/marcello



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      • Michael
        Culadasa and all, This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010
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          Culadasa and all,

          This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the purification of mind which comprises the jhanas. Therefore the Vsm model is in fact vipassana following samadhi.

          Michael

          --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Marcello,
          >
          > I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
          > I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.
          >
          > 1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
          > They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility)" (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
          > [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]
          >
          > With regard to a):
          > If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
          > And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.
          >
          > With regard to b):
          > Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.
          >
          > 2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.
          >
          > With regard to a):
          > A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.
          >
          > And with regard to b):
          > Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.
          >
          > So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"
          >
          > Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
          > With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
          > - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
          > - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
          > - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
          > - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.
          >
          > With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
          > - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists".
          > - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists".
          > - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in
          > fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite
          > true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.
          >
          >
          > You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
          > I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
          > If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.
          >
          > In the spirit of service,
          > culadasa
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@...>
          > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
          > Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra
          >
          >
          > Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:
          >
          > 1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.
          >
          > 2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:
          >
          > "Homage to the state of great bliss!
          > Concerning what is called
          > Mahamudra
          > All things are your own mind.
          > Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
          > Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "
          >
          > (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)
          >
          > So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?
          >
          > Or am I misunderstanding something here?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Marcello
          >
          > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
          >
          > “In
          > the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible
          > summer”
          > --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)
          >
          > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
          >
          > Website: http://snurl. com/marcello
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
          >
        • Culadasa
          Hello Michael, I find that Samatha is a more useful description than samadhi for what is being referred to here, since the term samadhi can refer to the
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010
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            Hello Michael,

            I find that Samatha is a more useful description than samadhi for what is being referred to here, since the term samadhi can refer to the undeveloped parikamma samadhi as well as to upacara and apana .

            But with regard to the point you make, you will notice that, although Purification of Mind does come earlier in the lay out of the Vsm textually, the part of the text we are referring to here very explicitly acknowledges that samatha and jhana may not have been attained prior to engaging in the Purifications of View and Overcoming Doubt, etc. The clearest modern exposition of the Vsm Knowledges is in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, and the specific practice method to which he finds it corresponds so perfectly is unquestionably one of "vipassana that precedes rather than follows samatha".

            Also, my comments are anything but an attempt to interpret the Vsm, although I do believe they accord quite well with everything that the Vsm actually says. My comments are based directly on the experience of myself and quite a few other practitioners who have followed practices from several different traditions, not just the modern Vsm-based Theravada. This kind of first hand experience sheds light upon things like the series of Knowledges presented in the Vsm in a way that scholarly analysis by itself would never be able to.

            With respect,
            culadasa


            From: Michael <acessoaoinsight@...>
            To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 1:41:29 PM
            Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

             

            Culadasa and all,

            This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the purification of mind which comprises the jhanas. Therefore the Vsm model is in fact vipassana following samadhi.

            Michael

            --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Marcello,
            >
            > I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
            > I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.
            >
            > 1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
            > They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility) " (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
            > [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]
            >
            > With regard to a):
            > If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
            > And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.
            >
            > With regard to b):
            > Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.
            >
            > 2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility) , and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.
            >
            > With regard to a):
            > A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.
            >
            > And with regard to b):
            > Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.
            >
            > So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"
            >
            > Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
            > With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
            > - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
            > - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
            > - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
            > - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.
            >
            > With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
            > - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists" .
            > - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists" .
            > - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in
            > fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite
            > true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.
            >
            >
            > You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
            > I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
            > If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.
            >
            > In the spirit of service,
            > culadasa
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@ ...>
            > To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
            > Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra
            >
            >
            > Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:
            >
            > 1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.
            >
            > 2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:
            >
            > "Homage to the state of great bliss!
            > Concerning what is called
            > Mahamudra
            > All things are your own mind.
            > Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
            > Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "
            >
            > (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)
            >
            > So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?
            >
            > Or am I misunderstanding something here?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Marcello
            >
            > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
            >
            > “In
            > the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible
            > summer”
            > --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)
            >
            > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
            >
            > Website: http://snurl. com/marcello
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
            >


          • mb
            Culadasa, Thanks for the reply. I cannot follow what you are saying because I don t know what you mean by the part of the text we are referring to here .
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 11, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Culadasa,

              Thanks for the reply. I cannot follow what you are saying because I don't know what you mean by "the part of the text we are referring to here".

              Metta
              Michael



              From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
              To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 7:13:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

               

              Hello Michael,

              I find that Samatha is a more useful description than samadhi for what is being referred to here, since the term samadhi can refer to the undeveloped parikamma samadhi as well as to upacara and apana .

              But with regard to the point you make, you will notice that, although Purification of Mind does come earlier in the lay out of the Vsm textually, the part of the text we are referring to here very explicitly acknowledges that samatha and jhana may not have been attained prior to engaging in the Purifications of View and Overcoming Doubt, etc. The clearest modern exposition of the Vsm Knowledges is in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, and the specific practice method to which he finds it corresponds so perfectly is unquestionably one of "vipassana that precedes rather than follows samatha".

              Also, my comments are anything but an attempt to interpret the Vsm, although I do believe they accord quite well with everything that the Vsm actually says. My comments are based directly on the experience of myself and quite a few other practitioners who have followed practices from several different traditions, not just the modern Vsm-based Theravada. This kind of first hand experience sheds light upon things like the series of Knowledges presented in the Vsm in a way that scholarly analysis by itself would never be able to.

              With respect,
              culadasa


              From: Michael <acessoaoinsight@ yahoo.com>
              To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 1:41:29 PM
              Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

               

              Culadasa and all,

              This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the purification of mind which comprises the jhanas. Therefore the Vsm model is in fact vipassana following samadhi.

              Michael

              --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Marcello,
              >
              > I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
              > I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.
              >
              > 1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
              > They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility) " (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
              > [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]
              >
              > With regard to a):
              > If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
              > And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.
              >
              > With regard to b):
              > Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.
              >
              > 2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility) , and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.
              >
              > With regard to a):
              > A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.
              >
              > And with regard to b):
              > Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.
              >
              > So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"
              >
              > Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
              > With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
              > - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
              > - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
              > - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
              > - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.
              >
              > With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
              > - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists" .
              > - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists" .
              > - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in
              > fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite
              > true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.
              >
              >
              > You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
              > I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
              > If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.
              >
              > In the spirit of service,
              > culadasa
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@ ...>
              > To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
              > Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra
              >
              >
              > Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:
              >
              > 1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.
              >
              > 2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:
              >
              > "Homage to the state of great bliss!
              > Concerning what is called
              > Mahamudra
              > All things are your own mind.
              > Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
              > Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "
              >
              > (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)
              >
              > So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?
              >
              > Or am I misunderstanding something here?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Marcello
              >
              > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
              >
              > “In
              > the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible
              > summer”
              > --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)
              >
              > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
              >
              > Website: http://snurl. com/marcello
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
              >


            • Culadasa
              Vsm Chapter XVIII ________________________________ From: mb To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 10:37:28 AM
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 12, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Vsm Chapter XVIII


                From: mb <acessoaoinsight@...>
                To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 10:37:28 AM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                 

                Culadasa,

                Thanks for the reply. I cannot follow what you are saying because I don't know what you mean by "the part of the text we are referring to here".

                Metta
                Michael



                From: Culadasa <culadasa@yahoo. com>
                To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 7:13:18 PM
                Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                 

                Hello Michael,

                I find that Samatha is a more useful description than samadhi for what is being referred to here, since the term samadhi can refer to the undeveloped parikamma samadhi as well as to upacara and apana .

                But with regard to the point you make, you will notice that, although Purification of Mind does come earlier in the lay out of the Vsm textually, the part of the text we are referring to here very explicitly acknowledges that samatha and jhana may not have been attained prior to engaging in the Purifications of View and Overcoming Doubt, etc. The clearest modern exposition of the Vsm Knowledges is in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, and the specific practice method to which he finds it corresponds so perfectly is unquestionably one of "vipassana that precedes rather than follows samatha".

                Also, my comments are anything but an attempt to interpret the Vsm, although I do believe they accord quite well with everything that the Vsm actually says. My comments are based directly on the experience of myself and quite a few other practitioners who have followed practices from several different traditions, not just the modern Vsm-based Theravada. This kind of first hand experience sheds light upon things like the series of Knowledges presented in the Vsm in a way that scholarly analysis by itself would never be able to.

                With respect,
                culadasa


                From: Michael <acessoaoinsight@ yahoo.com>
                To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 1:41:29 PM
                Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                 

                Culadasa and all,

                This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the purification of mind which comprises the jhanas. Therefore the Vsm model is in fact vipassana following samadhi.

                Michael

                --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Marcello,
                >
                > I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
                > I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.
                >
                > 1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
                > They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility) " (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
                > [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]
                >
                > With regard to a):
                > If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
                > And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.
                >
                > With regard to b):
                > Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.
                >
                > 2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility) , and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.
                >
                > With regard to a):
                > A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.
                >
                > And with regard to b):
                > Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.
                >
                > So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"
                >
                > Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
                > With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
                > - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
                > - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
                > - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
                > - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.
                >
                > With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
                > - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists" .
                > - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists" .
                > - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in
                > fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite
                > true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.
                >
                >
                > You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
                > I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
                > If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.
                >
                > In the spirit of service,
                > culadasa
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@ ...>
                > To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
                > Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra
                >
                >
                > Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:
                >
                > 1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.
                >
                > 2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:
                >
                > "Homage to the state of great bliss!
                > Concerning what is called
                > Mahamudra
                > All things are your own mind.
                > Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
                > Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "
                >
                > (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)
                >
                > So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?
                >
                > Or am I misunderstanding something here?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Marcello
                >
                > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                >
                > “In
                > the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible
                > summer”
                > --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)
                >
                > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                >
                > Website: http://snurl. com/marcello
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
                >



              • mb
                Culadasa, OK. But can you please point where I can find in chapter XVIII the explicit acknowledgment that that samatha and jhana may not have been attained
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 13, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Culadasa,

                  OK. But can you please point where I can find in chapter XVIII  the "explicit acknowledgment that that samatha and jhana may not have been attained prior to engaging in the Purifications of View and Overcoming Doubt, etc"? I am not able to find it. I understand that your comments are also based on practical experience, and I respect that, but I just want to make sure I understand what the Vsm says. Much appreciated.

                  With metta,
                  Michael



                  From: Culadasa <culadasa@...>
                  To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 8:27:02 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                   

                  Vsm Chapter XVIII


                  From: mb <acessoaoinsight@ yahoo.com>
                  To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 10:37:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                   

                  Culadasa,

                  Thanks for the reply. I cannot follow what you are saying because I don't know what you mean by "the part of the text we are referring to here".

                  Metta
                  Michael



                  From: Culadasa <culadasa@yahoo. com>
                  To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 7:13:18 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                   

                  Hello Michael,

                  I find that Samatha is a more useful description than samadhi for what is being referred to here, since the term samadhi can refer to the undeveloped parikamma samadhi as well as to upacara and apana .

                  But with regard to the point you make, you will notice that, although Purification of Mind does come earlier in the lay out of the Vsm textually, the part of the text we are referring to here very explicitly acknowledges that samatha and jhana may not have been attained prior to engaging in the Purifications of View and Overcoming Doubt, etc. The clearest modern exposition of the Vsm Knowledges is in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, and the specific practice method to which he finds it corresponds so perfectly is unquestionably one of "vipassana that precedes rather than follows samatha".

                  Also, my comments are anything but an attempt to interpret the Vsm, although I do believe they accord quite well with everything that the Vsm actually says. My comments are based directly on the experience of myself and quite a few other practitioners who have followed practices from several different traditions, not just the modern Vsm-based Theravada. This kind of first hand experience sheds light upon things like the series of Knowledges presented in the Vsm in a way that scholarly analysis by itself would never be able to.

                  With respect,
                  culadasa


                  From: Michael <acessoaoinsight@ yahoo.com>
                  To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 1:41:29 PM
                  Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: insight knowledges & mahamudra

                   

                  Culadasa and all,

                  This is a very creative and stimulating reply but one has to keep in mind that in the Vsm model the insight knowledges take place after the purification of mind which comprises the jhanas. Therefore the Vsm model is in fact vipassana following samadhi.

                  Michael

                  --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Marcello,
                  >
                  > I am surprised that no has responded to you yet, but here is my 2 cents.
                  > I will assume that you and any other readers are already familiar with the sequence of "Knowledges" you have referred to. If not, they are readily accessible on the internet using Google.
                  >
                  > 1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
                  > They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility) " (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.
                  > [For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]
                  >
                  > With regard to a):
                  > If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
                  > And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.
                  >
                  > With regard to b):
                  > Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.
                  >
                  > 2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility) , and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.
                  >
                  > With regard to a):
                  > A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.
                  >
                  > And with regard to b):
                  > Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha.
                  >
                  > So to restate your question, "Who in their right mind would follow a method that broaches Insight without first cultivating Samatha, or plunge into the Knowledge of Dissolution and Insight into Impermanence without first properly addressing the issue of emptiness with regard to the perceived Self?"
                  >
                  > Here are a few answers that come immediately to mind:
                  > With regard to why someone would not first cultivate Samatha;
                  > - Someone might be unaware that there is any other approach.
                  > - Someone might have been taught that Samatha practices are useless or difficult or dangerous or are to be avoided for some other reason or combination of reasons. eg. "Concentration practices are a waste of time. The only real Buddhist meditation is Vipassana."
                  > - Someone might have been unsuccessful in Samatha practice due to lack of proper instruction, and so has abandoned it in frustration.
                  > - Someone might have practiced Samatha incorrectly in a way that has led to dullness, and so has abandoned the practice as fruitless.
                  >
                  > With regard to why someone would pursue Insight into anicca before anatta;
                  > - Anyone who is resistant to and cannot accept the idea that what the Buddha meant by anatta is that there really is not, never has been, and never will be a separate Self other than these conditioned, impermanent, suffering aggregates. This is part of what makes anatta so much more inaccessible than anicca. There are countless Buddhists, Western and Eastern alike, who think, "Buddha just meant that the Self was not in the aggregates, not that there is no Self at all." They feel like they are a Self, and they fully expect to have the mystery of the doctrine of anatta solved and their "True" Self revealed through the practice. You know the one they are thinking of: the Self who has lived countless previous lives, the one that accumulates merit and kamma, the one that is going to be reborn in the future. These are the closet "eternalists" .
                  > - Anyone who craves non-existence, who embraces the Dhamma as the path to an ultimate end to the endless cycle of suffering and rebirth, but who can only conceive of liberation in terms of oblivion. The rebirth they wish to escape is, of course, that of a Self that for them does exist, although admittedly in a mysteriously relative and mind-dependent way, but a Self that is all too painfully and undeniably real none-the-less. Since this Self exists in some mysteriously mind-dependent way, it is the mind that must put an end to it. Insights into impermanence and suffering are seen as the path by which the Self will be destroyed and become a No-Self that will not be reborn. These are the closet "anihilationists" .
                  > - Anyone who is aware that Insight into anicca is in
                  > fact much more readily attained than Insight into anatta. This is quite
                  > true and is perhaps the best of all possible reasons for seeking Insight into Impermanence.
                  >
                  >
                  > You mentioned Mahamudra. First, the actual practice of Mahamudra meditation as such is not to be taken up until one has already achieved Shamata. If one enters into a traditional program of training in Mahamudra by a qualified teacher, the first thing to be introduced is the "ordinary" practice, which is Shamata, the mastery of which precedes the "uncommon" practice, which is Mahamudra per se. If you refer to any of the classic texts on Mahamudra that have been translated into English, you will see that almost half of any given volume is devoted to Shamata practice. Second, Mahamudra is meditation on the emptiness of mind, and mind is the primary locus of our attachment to the false view of separate Self-hood. Therefore, Insight into anatman, the emptiness of Self, is an integral part of the process from the first.
                  > I will provide a caveat for those who might be drawn to Mahamudra. There are some teachers of Mahamudra, many of them Tibetan, who are quite willing to fill a "market demand" by impatient Westerners who want instruction in "Mahamudra" but don't want to bother with the preliminary training in Shamata. The practice becomes a sort of pseudo-Zen where one just "empties the mind" and tries to do nothing at all in a silent non-meditation. I have serious doubts that anything of value can be accomplished through this kind of practice.
                  > If you are seriously interested in Mahamudra, get a book like "Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal. Familiarize yourself with its contents, and then go shopping for a qualified teacher who teaches according to the traditional system beginning with the meditation on Tranquility and Insight.
                  >
                  > In the spirit of service,
                  > culadasa
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@ ...>
                  > To: jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 8:42:09 AM
                  > Subject: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra
                  >
                  >
                  > Lately, I've been curious about the path of insight knowledges as compared to the path of mahamudra. I have two questions:
                  >
                  > 1. Do the insight knowledges always happen in that order? I suspect not *always*, but maybe they tend to, or they may happen in that general order.
                  >
                  > 2. The insight knowledges involve some pretty uncomfortable and downright horrible phases (e.g. bhanga, terror, misery, disgust). On the other hand, Mahamudra has been described as the path of bliss. Naropa wasn't even shy about it:
                  >
                  > "Homage to the state of great bliss!
                  > Concerning what is called
                  > Mahamudra
                  > All things are your own mind.
                  > Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
                  > Like a dream, they are empty of concreteness. "
                  >
                  > (I love that verse. It's from: http://luminousempt iness.blogspot. com/2008/ 12/reflections- on-naropa- summary-of. html)
                  >
                  > So my question is, who in their right mind would choose to do the insight knowledges and spend considerable time in abject misery rather than taking a blissful path?
                  >
                  > Or am I misunderstanding something here?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Marcello
                  >
                  > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                  >
                  > “In
                  > the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible
                  > summer”
                  > --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)
                  >
                  > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                  >
                  > Website: http://snurl. com/marcello
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
                  >



                • Marcello Spinella
                  Culadasa, I m beyond convinced, at this point, that developing samatha first (predominantly) before developing deep insights is the wisest path. I have a few
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 16, 2010
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                    Culadasa,

                    I'm beyond convinced, at this point, that developing samatha first (predominantly) before developing deep insights is the wisest path. I have a few follow up questions to your very helpful answer.

                    1. You wrote:
                    "Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta."

                    Assuming a person has done jhana practice first and developed those qualities, how does a person assure that they develop insight into anatta before the others? I suppose it would involve choosing certain objects for vipassana meditation that would allow one to investigate the sense of self.

                    2. You wrote:
                    "A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are."

                    Could you elaborate on what you mean by "mitigate"? Does it mean being only "moderately miserable," or not miserable at all? Of course it will vary between individuals, and I don't mean to belabor the point. I'm mainly asking for the purpose of getting a better understanding. "Bliss" still sounds better than "mitigated misery," on the surface meaning of the words at least.

                    Thanks again. This has all been very helpful to me.

                    Marcello

                    ***********************************************************************************

                    “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer”
                              --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)

                    ***********************************************************************************

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                  • Culadasa
                    Hello Marcello, Re: Question 1. You are right, it involves your approach to vipassana and the emphasis of that approach on investigating the nature of self.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 17, 2010
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                      Hello Marcello,

                      Re: Question 1. You are right, it involves your approach to vipassana and the emphasis of that approach on investigating the nature of self.

                      You mention jhana practice, and if you do the kind of jhana practice that we have been referring to here as the "deep" jhanas, it provides for a very powerful insight into the nature of the self via a deconstruction, or as I like to think of it, a 'serial dissection' of the mind. So you get both: well developed samatha plus insight into anatta. The attention is withdrawn from the senses and focuses on a mind-generated nimitta as object (1st jhana). Mindfully observing the transition back and forth between this jhana and upacara, investigating the differences between them, it becomes clear what is present or absent in each case compared to the other. That sets the pattern for the practice of the subsequent jhanas. The nimitta as object is dropped and the attention focused on mental state and affect (2nd jhana). Once again, mindful awareness follows the movement into and out of the jhana while mindfully investigating what is or is not present in each case. Then, mindfully observing the transitions as before, the attention is withdrawn from mental state and its concomittants and focused on affect alone (3rd jhana), after which it is withdrawn from affect and dwells on the luminous experience of mind itself (4th jhana). In the process of all this it becomes very, very clear that there ain't nobody home but us perceptions, feelings, formations and consciousness. From here it is possible to go on to deconstruct some of the most fundamental formations like spatial limitations and localization (1st and 2nd formless), thingness (3rd formless), and that particular movement of the mind by which consciousness takes an object in a dualistic act of perception (4th formless jhana), but quite frankly, these latter don't contribute very much to insight into anatta as all of the real insight work has already been done in the four form jhanas.

                      Any of the emptiness-oriented practices will contribute to an understanding of the emptiness of self, but there can be a lot of variation as to how complete that understanding is and how deeply it penetrates. As you have already observed, many neuroscientists and philosophers in the field of consciousness studies have an extremely good intellectual understanding of anatta, but it seems to make no real difference in terms of what we would call their wisdom level, it is only "knowledge". The same thing can be said of the classical Indo-Tibetan analytical meditation on emptiness -- it usually does not go beyond the level of intellectual knowledge until some time after insight into the emptiness and impermanence of everything else and the consequent inevitability of suffering have already been confronted.

                      When I say "how complete that understanding is and how deeply it penetrates", I am referring specifically to penetration at the intuitive level of understanding, to the formative worldview that is pre-existing in the mind at the time of arising of any given situation, and that immediately provides direction to the processes of conceptualization, feeling and perception. When intellectual understanding is repeatedly applied to experience in a such a way that it is confirmed by that experience, the intuitive worldview begins to change. This is what the practice of mindfulness, both in meditation and in daily life, accomplishes. Mindful awareness needs to consistently reveal over and over again that, "Aha, no self there, self is obviously an optional rather than essential aspect of experience", or "Oh yes, I see, this self that is arising is just an idea, no different from any other idea", or "Wow, this feeling of being a separate self arises and disappears according to causes and conditions, just like any other feeling. It is always there when I look for it, but is often absent unless I look for it." So given the variability in depth of understanding at the intellectual and intuitive levels, there will be a corresponding variability in attachment to self, and therefore also a greater or lesser degree of experience of "fear, misery and disgust" when looking truth in the face.

                      Mahamudra is a kind of emptiness practice in which the mind comes to rest in the blissfulness of its 'natural state', and it is from that state that the investigation of the empty nature of appearances and of mind itself proceeds. As it is so poetically put, there arises the union of bliss and emptiness and the union of appearance and emptiness. Deep insight into emptiness of mind and self develops in tandem with and as a part of insight into the emptiness of "appearances", which of course, includes mind and self as empty appearances, and the whole process unfolds in a mind imbued with bliss. Suffering is transcended in the very process of wisdom arising, so there is no intermediate stage of "Oh, woe is me, all is impermanent and empty, samsara is dukkha, I am so miserable, may I be liberated from samsara and reach nirvana." Instead, there is the immediate recognition that samsara and nirvana are not different, but that samsara is simply the emptiness of everything when experienced through ignorance, and nirvana is that same emptiness combined with wisdom.
                       
                      Re: Question 2. Stream Entry is by definition the point at which non-attachment to self-view becomes permanent. Prior to Stream Entry, no matter how strong and clear your insight into anatta and non-attachment to self is during the last sit before lunch, there is no guarantee it will still be the same during the first sit after lunch. Samatha in the presence of strong attachment to self can still involve some misery when the other insights arise, and so in that case we might say mitigate means only "moderately disturbed and uncomfortable, moderately miserable". In the case of samatha with very clear insight and (temporarily at least) no attachment, mitigate can mean no new misery at all other than what has already been experienced in getting to where you are now.

                      Some of my students with well developed samatha practices have done extended periods of retreat in the Mahasi vipassana tradition. For them, the dukkha nanas took the form of knowledge, understanding, and insight into dukkha accompanied by some mild emotional distress, rather than experiences of immersion in dukkha. I find this to be a good illustration of what we are talking about.

                      But when Stream Entry occurs as a discreet magga-phala or darsana-marga type event, there is still some fun yet to come in the moments immediately preceding the final transition. Imagine being in a situation where your only hope, and it is only a hope, is to step off into a bottomless abyss. Imagine what it is like in that moment where it is impossible to go back, there is no more ground under your feet, no support at all, and gravity begins to suck you down. It could be either exhilarating or the most terrifying moment of your entire existence, or both at the same time. Sometimes the yogi stands on the brink, but still steps back at the last moment. Insight and equanimity open up the abyss, but sometimes it takes something else like a good strong dose of misery that is still fresh in the mind to compel one to step into it. That is not the only way of course, but don't underestimate the value of a bit of intense suffering and despair. Think of it this way. The mind is a complex, open, non-linear, self-organizing, dynamic system. What we are doing is destabilizing this system to a point that the instability causes it to undergo a major phase shift and reorganize to achieve a new dynamic stability. It is too much to expect and rather unrealistic to think that the degree of instability necessary for such a transformation to take place is going to happen without some strong feelings experienced from within the system.

                      The experience of anticipated suffering can be more disturbing than the experience of actual suffering. Suffering in the past is no suffering at all. I suggest that you aim for unmitigated bliss while being quite willing to settle for mitigated misery. You won't be disappointed.

                      Best wishes,
                      culadasa


                      From: Marcello Spinella <marcellospinella@...>
                      To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 5:34:21 PM
                      Subject: RE: [jhana_insight] insight knowledges & mahamudra

                       

                      Culadasa,

                      I'm beyond convinced, at this point, that developing samatha first (predominantly) before developing deep insights is the wisest path. I have a few follow up questions to your very helpful answer.

                      1. You wrote:
                      "Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta."

                      Assuming a person has done jhana practice first and developed those qualities, how does a person assure that they develop insight into anatta before the others? I suppose it would involve choosing certain objects for vipassana meditation that would allow one to investigate the sense of self.

                      2. You wrote:
                      "A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are."

                      Could you elaborate on what you mean by "mitigate"? Does it mean being only "moderately miserable," or not miserable at all? Of course it will vary between individuals, and I don't mean to belabor the point. I'm mainly asking for the purpose of getting a better understanding. "Bliss" still sounds better than "mitigated misery," on the surface meaning of the words at least.

                      Thanks again. This has all been very helpful to me.

                      Marcello

                      ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********

                      “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer”
                                --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)

                      ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********

                      Website:  http://snurl. com/marcello





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                    • Marcello Spinella
                      Culadasa, Thanks again. I m going to re-read this over a few days and soak it in. My purpose in asking this is really to make sense of this process as well as
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
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                        Culadasa,

                        Thanks again. I'm going to re-read this over a few days and soak it in.

                        My purpose in asking this is really to make sense of this process as well as I can. On a personal level, aiming for "unmitigated bliss while being quite willing to settle for mitigated misery sounds fair enough to me." Should I ever go through this process, I'm not worried about experiencing hardship for a greater goal. If I have any concerns it's more about being able to function as a husband, father, and at work. I don't want my loved ones to bear the brunt of my personal choices. As you know, I'm a college professor and having a major screw loose for an extended period of time could affect my ability to earn a living (although admittedly, many of my colleagues have had a major screw loose since the mid-1970s).

                        Marcello


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                      • Marcello Spinella
                        Culadasa, Thanks again. I m going to re-read this over a few days and soak it in. My purpose in asking this is really to make sense of this process as well as
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
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                          Culadasa,

                          Thanks again. I'm going to re-read this over a few days and soak it in.

                          My purpose in asking this is really to make sense of this process as well as I can. On a personal level, aiming for "unmitigated bliss while being quite willing to settle for mitigated misery sounds fair enough to me." Should I ever go through this process, I'm not worried about experiencing hardship for a greater goal. If I have any concerns it's more about being able to function as a husband, father, and at work. I don't want my loved ones to bear the brunt of my personal choices. As you know, I'm a college professor and having a major screw loose for an extended period of time could affect my ability to earn a living. ;-) 

                          Marcello


                          ***********************************************************************************

                          “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer”
                                    --Albert Camus, "Return to Tipasa" (1954)

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                          Website:  http://snurl.com/marcello



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