Greetings to you all!
Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having ‘off line’ about topics that were discussed on line while I was on retreat.
Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is sensitive and subtle, and important to the ‘many’, both Culadasa and I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will always be errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always have room for more discussion and other points of view.
I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction, followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa’s and Matheesha’s questions and statements. Then I have posted my request for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for Culadasa’s and Matheesha’s in order to assist the reader.
Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.
I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable position. He is trying to help the ‘many’ to realize magga-phala. He is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa’s attempts to bring clarity to the subject and to assist ‘the many’ towards more rapid and deeper understanding of meditation.
Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices, will be of benefit to the ‘many’.
metta, allan
Greetings all-
I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one’s own experience and study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a responsibility to add a little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I feel it might be valuable.
True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.
I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years. This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable, and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist culture.
Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka, as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school of practice from which my training originates.
That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of my teachers.
Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case, during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the testimonials of other kalyanamitta.
One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi’s teaching of the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe. Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the training if/when the continuity of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and balance.
Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost, and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism across a broad range of manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.
Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge compliment of trust and respect.
If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past, it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is, however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe'.
When we create new schools/practices and interpret older traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.
We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that each time I have deepened my practice in my more ‘traditional training’, which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding was weak and incomplete.
When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive changes occurred.
Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school still holds the key to the success’ of the past. We need to look to the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular school’s understanding and teachings. These new schools have few solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk this particular way before.
I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.
Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?
In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development.
Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.
Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional comments.
Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and very important part in Mahasi’s teachings, but it would be an exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi’s teachings. They are a linking part of the Vishuddimagga’s analysis of the Path of Purification.
Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.
Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter' magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?
Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking, speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be certain that something profound has occurred.
C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.
Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which ‘door’ the yogi enters into magga-phala/phala. Higher Paths have a more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.
What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/action, not the experience itself.
C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others, vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of Path attainment.
Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear in the person's behavior.
Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon
1) how a magga-phala moment can be identified
2) how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)
Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one takes a determination that it doesn’t), and the yogi's mind will incline without active intention more and more towards its release. The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise, determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a magga-phala event, but will report funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an Enlightenment event and have not.
Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-phala quite thoroughly below.
C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.
It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don’t know, and so I can’t speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to their attenuation. This is where the ‘saturation of the mind’ with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.
Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom, depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence, suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the ‘absolute’ and the ‘ultimate’ within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.
If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.
So, having done with that digression, let’s now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala ‘event’ might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can’t possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan writes: This last statement is all too true.) And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a ‘real’ or ‘valid’ magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else’s experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.
To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is ‘just like what I have read and heard about”, it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say “Despite what I have read and heard, it’s not at all what I was expecting”. A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.
But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won’t go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a ‘non-event’ for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.
And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.
Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be only available to one who has had what this school believes to have been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.
C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest looking for the following points in that description:
1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.
Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as cessation or a gap.
2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness, except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness (Allan writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people. Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and subsequent phala events are phala events.), of nibbana and/or anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality, Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.
3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of Truth through the stopping of the mind.
Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones. My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce remarkable changes in our everyday lives.
4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.
Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this event!
5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real, nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just been known.
Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?
C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology
Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance. Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.
Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience, followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to anything that arises in conscious awareness.
Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say above.
C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a Sotapanna, the yogi’s mind and brain undergo a particular change in regard to the mechanism of self-identification. There is a mechanism in the human mind that performs the function of ‘selfing’, of identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries, and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self construct, the mechanism of ‘selfing’ would not have ceased to function. The nature of the magga-phala event is such that:
The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind’s ‘selfing’ mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the body/mind/personality as self.
This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards upon reflection.
The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and identification by the ‘selfing’ mechanism. Thus at any later time, especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as soon as it is recognized.
Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the ‘selfing’ mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as “I am THAT” or “I AM that I AM”. This can either be held at bay through the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as such a self persists until Arahatship.
Allan writes: Extremely well said.
C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings, and this, combined with having had a direct experience of undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings of love that naturally follow from one’s experience of bliss, because loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.
Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved, and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong, and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna’s sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a natural and intuitive mode of behaving, rather than following a set of rules.
Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.
C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought, speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness. As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination that s/he begins the process of uprooting them.
Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?' His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who believe that 'dry vipassana’ is sufficient to lead a yogi to Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your pick, but whichever you choose, bring the Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.
When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The conditioning that comes along with any training will make it difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.
Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and happier we all will be.
Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa soliciting his input re the above email.
From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@...]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM
To: Culadasa
Subject: help!
Hi Culadasa-
Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year, extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my plannings...
Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided. One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.
There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not to post it.
I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.
I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and effort due to my paucity of ability and the many ‘disagreements’ I have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.
Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.
Much metta, allan
Hello Allan,
My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.
After reading through and pondering upon the various points you have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are “describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results”, and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?
(Message over 64 KB, truncated)- Dear MatheeshaLately my own experience with spontaneous phala in sittings has been as follows: I am in adeeply formless, indescribable really, state, and then something that I can only call a wave of transparency come through and lifts my mind into nothingness. Later, I open my eyes to look at the cloak and see that there is missing time, usually a half hour or more. I do not believe that "coning" or any other way of experience this process has anything to do with stages. How the yogi experiences emergence into emptiness is pretty much idosynchratic, having to do with individual conditioning, other than the fact there there is this sense of reorienting into the dimension of the absolute.Matheesha, my ambivalence has nothing to do with your answers, which I actually find very illuminating. My ambivalence is about the usefulness in general of these topics, especially in a public forum where many without sufficient experience may actually be hindered by the accumulation of opinions and views on such matters. I believe every yogi is entitled to have his or her own adventure in consciousness and should not be made to feel that they must relive someone elses experience. Innocence and freshness in authentic discovery can be very powerful aspects of practice that have a vulnerability that enable deep transformation.That said, I seem to contine with these posts, but I am really winding down on this kind of conversation. I think I am inclined to have this level of consversation in a more private format from now on so I can gear responses to the needs or level of the person I am writing to.With metta,Daniel
--- On Tue, 3/24/09, matheesha <dhammachat@...> wrote:
From: matheesha <dhammachat@...>
Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Discussion with Culadasa and Allan
To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 2:40 PMHi Daniel,
I remembered something after we last communicated. The 'coning' and other experiences seemed linked to the first stage magga-phala experience. However for those attaining the second and possibly the third there is another experience- seemingly connected with what you mentioned about an experience above the head.
It seems to start in the extremeties of the body (hands etc), tingling sensations, rapturous, a rush, building up and going up through the chest and the head and above it- almost like a sagittal halo- as often the buddha is depicted -with a vertical halo or aura around his head, spreading out and expanding. I have come across this experience 4 times now in those practicing for higher stages (and interestingly none of the coning type experiences, unless it was a re-run of the first stage).
I am sorry that you were left ambivalent about the usefulness of my answer! Indeed I thought you were asking me about ways of conceptualising progress in the higher paths and fruits. Were you thinking of something more practical perhaps?
with metta
M
--- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel" <drbf2@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dear Matheesha,
>
> Thank you for all of your imput and reflection on this subject matter.
> I am conflicted as to how useful it is, but certainly it is fascinating.
> As to the question of nivakalpa samadhi in yoga vedanta or tantra, I
> have seen it used in two ways. In one way it is a state of completely
> formless absorption, seemingly synonymous with the asamprajnata samadhi
> of ashtanga yoga (also called nirbija samadhi), and often described as
> preceded by a sensation of consciousness leaving the body via the top of
> the head.
>
> In its second meaning, it is synonymous to sahaja (natural) samadhi,
> which is as you described: an experience of non-dual awareness in which
> the senses and the body are fully functional.
>
> I do not have much understanding of chakras as they relate to the
> classic samadhis of vedanta or tantra. Other than that they remain
> sabija and vikalpa below the level of the head. I have tried in the past
> to correlate the samadhi system of ashtanga yoga with that of the suttas
> but it does not quite fit, although the similarities are compelling. It
> is tempting to match of the chakras to the classic eight jhanas, but
> here again, it does not quite match. My own conclusion is the that realm
> of samadhi is very much like a color chart with incremental gradation
> up, down, across and at all angles. Most likely all of these
> classification systems are fully valid, and simply group these
> experiences by different criteria such as mental factors, mundane or
> supermundane, (Pali) subtlety of the object (ashtanga), as experienced
> through increasingly subtle components of our being (chakras) etc.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Daniel
>
>
> --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Daniel
> >
> > > 1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
> > > movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness
> by
> > > exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
> > > hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the
> head"?
> > > Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?
> >
> > 'Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the
> mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach
> the dhamma- he very well knew the answer! (not implying you are
> ingenuous in any way :) )
> >
> > Well, as far as I have heard there is no 'exiting through the top of
> the head', but I wouldnt rule it out considering the wide variation in
> experience. The concept of 'nirvikalpa samadhi' reads more like a jhana
> reached through metta when one reads the descriptions, where the person
> experiences a sense of unification with everything, 'make me one with
> everything', as the joke goes:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Nirvikalpa_ Samadhi
> >
> > It is clearly not an insight process as the ideas of self on a
> universal level is still maintained.
> >
> > I have often wondered whether the chakras were the same as jhana, but
> have never reached a satisfactory conclusion. I vaguely remember the
> last chakra having something to do with the head and perhaps going
> through the top.
> >
> > There is an experiential difference between this rising and the jhanic
> rising of the mind. It is very difficult to put into words. Similarly
> there is a difference in this emptiness and the emptiness of the jhanas.
> >
> > > 2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak,
> but
> > > subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
> > > degree of identification. "
> > >
> > > Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
> > > speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I
> have
> > > experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and
> beyond
> > > the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this
> as
> > > SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if
> there
> > > is some understanding of development here that are more useful.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, magga-phala and phalasamawata is what I alluded to. I dont
> necessarily agree that we fall back into SUN -especially if the yogi has
> stopped practice. There is concept in the suttas called 'seka parihani'
> meaning 'deterioration of the trainee', and that such people live in
> relative sadness, because they have stopped the practice for whatever
> reason. So they may have to start up again and may reach SUN.
> >
> > There are several ways in we might conceptualize higher training:
> >
> > Considering that the Buddha generally proclaimes that all four
> foundations of mindfulness should be practiced, it is my experience that
> practicing them seperately on their own has distinct advantages. Each of
> those objects of meditation in the four foundations seems to target
> specific areas of clinging - as the final outcome of each is 'naca kinci
> loke upadiyata' 'clinging to naught in the world'. Or to put it in
> another way concentrations of avijja/delusion surround each object -
> body, feelings, thoughts etc and specific useful work can be done by
> which contributes towards letting go of everything at every level. The
> buddha equals this to skinning an animal, cutting off the tendons which
> bind the skin to the flesh and putting the skin back on, but detached.
> Ven Anuruddha defines a trainee as someoen who hasnt fully practiced the
> four foundations and the 'asekha' arahanth as one who has. I think this
> is a point where most current meditation methods fall short, and a
> possible reason why we dont see as many arahanths in the world, as
> otherwise using the one method progress becomes laborious.
> >
> > In one sense stream entry only affords us a snap shot of the truth.
> The real work only begins after this- no wonder then the trainee 'sekha'
> is only called such after stream entry, not before it! We get a snap
> shot ('sacca') which can be over-archingly summarized as the four noble
> truths. The next bit as mentioned in the dhammachakkapawatta na sutta is
> to work these insights into our mind, our patterns of thinking
> ('krutya'). The final stage is where the yogi have become the truths,
> and there is no more 'I'. ('krutha'). These are the three stages in
> which the four noble truths are learnt in twelve different ways
> ('dwadasakaran tiparivattam' ). I think the arduous path to stream entry
> is in a way a minature version of the whole path to nibbana ending in
> arahanthship. We dont really do much different for the attainment of the
> higher attainments in one way, and so much more when we look at it, from
> another perspective.
> >
> > Another useful way to articulate the higher attainments is as you know
> is by way of fetters; or by saying having deeper and deeper leves of the
> same insight.
> >
> > 'Gone beyond needing a teacher' is another characterisation of the
> trainee. I had this impression of the magga-phala moment like a puncture
> in the hull of plane flying at high altitude. Sooner or later everything
> is going to get sucked through and lost in the void. The magga- phala
> moment is a puncture in samsara, like a punture in a baloon or in a
> tire. That final moment is where the noble eightfold path causes samsara
> to end (or more acurately another moment not to arise), it is not the
> causation of nibbana, as the latter is uncaused.
> >
> > with metta
> >
> > Matheesha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Metta,
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Daniel,
> > > >
> > > > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN
> and
> > > KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant,
> even
> > > though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
> > > descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having
> started
> > > jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
> > > experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious
> level
> > > and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the
> development
> > > feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
> > > >
> > > > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few
> people
> > > have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards
> in
> > > this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement
> that
> > > some people might have. It is formed of a very dense
> samadhi/unfication
> > > of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
> > > uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
> > > yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it
> happen. It
> > > happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with
> bliss.
> > > If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
> > > gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.shopwiki .co.uk/detail/ d=Stock_Photo_ of_hot_water_ geyser_errup\
> \
> > > ting/
> > > >
> > > > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
> > > shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not
> have
> > > the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
> > > completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds,
> perhaps
> > > best visualised like this:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.spacetel escope.org/ images/html/ heic0206c. html
> > > >
> > > > or this
> > > >
> > > > http://delphes. net/messier/ more/m016_ hst.html
> > > >
> > > > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black
> hole
> > > formations!
> > > >
> > > > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important
> one. I
> > > suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
> > > into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
> > > awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
> > > self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no
> focus
> > > on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either
> do
> > > the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi,
> in a
> > > particular sutta.
> > > >
> > > > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
> > > vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
> > > version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha
> samapatti
> > > and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of
> consciousness
> > > itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying
> degrees,
> > > IMO.
> > > >
> > > > with metta
> > > >
> > > > M
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Matheesha,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the
> classic
> > > ones
> > > > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up
> the
> > > top
> > > > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the
> "cone"
> > > is
> > > > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of
> this
> > > > > word?
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
> > > passing
> > > > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from
> oppression of
> > > > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The
> Vis.
> > > M.
> > > > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the
> factors of
> > > > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that
> moment. I
> > > find
> > > > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
> > > kind of
> > > > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this
> could be
> > > and
> > > > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
> > > > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
> > > > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
> > > nibbana.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever
> wholesome
> > > > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with
> letting
> > > go."
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
> > > evident
> > > > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let
> go"
> > > > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
> > > > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
> > > becomes
> > > > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of
> awareness
> > > is
> > > > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held
> back
> > > by
> > > > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
> > > back
> > > > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
> > > strength
> > > > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when
> the
> > > > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
> > > expereince."
> > > > >
> > > > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it
> is
> > > very
> > > > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
> > > > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me
> to
> > > > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness,
> but
> > > when
> > > > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all
> not
> > > only
> > > > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity
> of
> > > the
> > > > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of
> Arising
> > > and
> > > > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
> > > KAPA is
> > > > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct
> balance
> > > of
> > > > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are
> that
> > > in
> > > > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA
> the
> > > > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are
> not as
> > > > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and
> teahers to
> > > > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
> > > Although
> > > > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in
> KAPA.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when
> consciousness
> > > > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself-
> where
> > > it
> > > > > is aware only of itself."
> > > > >
> > > > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
> > > process
> > > > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in
> acendance
> > > or
> > > > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is
> in
> > > > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor
> in
> > > the
> > > > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
> > > itself.
> > > > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not
> wish
> > > to
> > > > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that
> makes
> > > them
> > > > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But
> when
> > > > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might
> occur
> > > as a
> > > > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in
> itself.
> > > The
> > > > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the
> consciousness
> > > has
> > > > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
> > > contemplate
> > > > > itself as a dhamma.
> > > > >
> > > > > With metta,
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the
> lateness
> > > of
> > > > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like to make two points/observations :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of
> all
> > > > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about
> by
> > > seeing
> > > > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie-
> by
> > > > > being
> > > > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess,
> non-self,
> > > or
> > > > > > foulness).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie
> the
> > > > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can
> vary
> > > > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered
> and
> > > > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations
> of a
> > > > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
> > > repeated a
> > > > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties
> grows
> > > in
> > > > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
> > > There
> > > > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the
> experience
> > > or
> > > > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
> > > satipatthana
> > > > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what
> follows
> > > > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
> > > > > nothingness,
> > > > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
> > > theoretically
> > > > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
> > > arises
> > > > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the
> burden'
> > > (of
> > > > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
> > > essential
> > > > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However
> just
> > > to
> > > > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that
> a
> > > person
> > > > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
> > > > > especially
> > > > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into
> phalasamawatha is
> > > a
> > > > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
> > > religious
> > > > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most
> important
> > > > > aspect
> > > > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
> > > buddhist
> > > > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify
> with
> > > God
> > > > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting
> go of
> > > > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
> mindstate
> > > that
> > > > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If
> someone
> > > was
> > > > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
> > > > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
> > > projected
> > > > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
> > > fetters
> > > > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back
> into
> > > > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
> strength
> > > of a
> > > > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
> > > faculties
> > > > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
> gives up
> > > > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it
> is
> > > > > aware
> > > > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense
> organs
> > > after
> > > > > a
> > > > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of
> satipatthana
> > > > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice
> because
> > > > > clearly
> > > > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
> > > conceptual
> > > > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states
> can
> > > be
> > > > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
> > > > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
> > > mind
> > > > > can
> > > > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one
> below. I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th
> magga-phala,
> > > when
> > > > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope that illuminates. .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > with metta
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I were called upon to decide w
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>