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Discussion with Culadasa and Allan

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  • Allan Cooper
    Greetings to you all! Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having ‘off line’ about topics that were discussed on line while I was
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 16, 2009
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      Greetings to you all!

      Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having ‘off line’ about topics that were discussed on line while I was on retreat.

      Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is sensitive and subtle, and important to the ‘many’, both Culadasa and I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will  always be errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always have room for more discussion and other points of view.

      I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction, followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa’s and Matheesha’s questions and statements. Then I have posted my request for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for Culadasa’s and Matheesha’s in order to assist the reader.

      Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.

      I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable position. He is trying to help the ‘many’ to realize magga-phala. He is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa’s attempts to bring clarity to the subject and to assist ‘the many’ towards more rapid and deeper understanding of meditation.

      Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices, will be of benefit to the ‘many’.

      metta, allan

       

      Greetings all-

      I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one’s own experience and study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a responsibility to add a little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I feel it might be valuable.

      True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.

      I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years. This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable, and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist culture.

      Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka, as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school of practice from which my training originates.

      That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of my teachers.

      Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case, during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the testimonials of other kalyanamitta.

      One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi’s teaching of the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe. Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the training if/when the continuity of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and balance.

      Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost, and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism across a broad range of manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.

      Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge compliment of trust and respect.

      If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past, it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is, however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe'.

      When we create new schools/practices and interpret older traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.

      We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that each time I have deepened my practice in my more ‘traditional training’, which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding was weak and incomplete.

      When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive changes occurred.

      Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school still holds the key to the success’ of the past. We need to look to the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular school’s understanding and teachings. These new schools have few solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk this particular way before.

      I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.

      Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?

       In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development.

      Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.

      Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional comments.

      Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and very important part in Mahasi’s teachings, but it would be an exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi’s teachings. They are a linking part of the Vishuddimagga’s analysis of the Path of Purification.

      Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.

      Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter' magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?

      Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking, speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be certain that something profound has occurred.

      C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.

      Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which ‘door’ the yogi enters into magga-phala/phala. Higher Paths have a more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.

      What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/action, not the experience itself.

      C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others, vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of Path attainment.

      Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear in the person's behavior.

      Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon

      1)   how a magga-phala moment can be identified

      2)   how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)

      Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one takes a determination that it doesn’t), and  the yogi's mind will incline without active intention more and more towards its release. The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise, determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a magga-phala event, but will report funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an Enlightenment event and have not.

      Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-phala quite thoroughly below.

      C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.

      It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don’t know, and so I can’t speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to their attenuation. This is where the ‘saturation of the mind’ with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.

      Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom, depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence, suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the ‘absolute’ and the ‘ultimate’ within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.

      If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.  

      So, having done with that digression, let’s now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala ‘event’ might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can’t possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan writes: This last statement is all too true.)  And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a ‘real’ or ‘valid’ magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else’s experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.

      To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is ‘just like what I have read and heard about”, it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say “Despite what I have read and heard, it’s not at all what I was expecting”. A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.

      But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won’t go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a ‘non-event’ for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.

      And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.

      Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be only available to one who has had what this school believes to have been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.

      C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest looking for the following points in that description:

      1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.

      Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as cessation or a gap.

      2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness, except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness  (Allan writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people. Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and subsequent phala events are phala events.),  of nibbana and/or anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality, Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.

      3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of Truth through the stopping of the mind.

      Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones. My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce remarkable changes in our everyday lives.

      4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.

      Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this event!

      5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real, nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just been known.

      Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?

      C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology

      Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance. Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.

      Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like a 'deep' immaterial jhana.

      C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience, followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to anything that arises in conscious awareness.

      Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say above.

      C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a Sotapanna, the yogi’s mind and brain undergo a particular change in regard to the mechanism of self-identification. There is a mechanism in the human mind that performs the function of ‘selfing’, of identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries, and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self construct, the mechanism of ‘selfing’ would not have ceased to function. The nature of the magga-phala event is such that:

      The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind’s ‘selfing’ mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the body/mind/personality as self.

      This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards upon reflection.

      The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and identification by the ‘selfing’ mechanism. Thus at any later time, especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as soon as it is recognized.

      Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the ‘selfing’ mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as “I am THAT” or “I AM that I AM”. This can either be held at bay through the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as such a self persists until Arahatship.

      Allan writes: Extremely well said.

      C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings, and this, combined with having had a direct experience of undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings of love that naturally follow from one’s experience of bliss, because loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.

      Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved, and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong, and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna’s sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a natural and intuitive mode of behaving, rather than following a set of rules.

      Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.

      C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought, speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness. As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination that s/he begins the process of uprooting them.

      Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?' His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who believe that 'dry vipassana’ is sufficient to lead a yogi to Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your pick, but whichever you choose, bring the Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.

      When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The conditioning that comes along with any training will make it difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.

      Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and happier we all will be.

      Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa soliciting his input re the above email.

      From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@...]

      Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM

      To: Culadasa

      Subject: help!

      Hi Culadasa-

      Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year, extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my plannings...

      Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided. One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.

      There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not to post it.

      I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.

      I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and effort due to my paucity of ability and the many ‘disagreements’ I have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.

      Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.

       Much metta, allan

       

      Hello Allan,

      My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.

      After reading through and pondering upon the various points you have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are “describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results”, and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?


      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

    • Daniel
      Dear Allan and Culadasa, Here are just a few point of observation I would like to add to your posted conversation: 1/ You both seem to have made an assumption
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment

         

        Dear Allan and Culadasa,

         

        Here are just a few point of observation I would like to add to your posted conversation:

         

        1/ You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training that I do not believe is correct. It does not always present as an unconscious gap. Here are two examples that I gleaned directly from "secret" Mahasi approved materials:

         

        "Mind and matter dropped away like a stone." [Dropped away from what? Presumably there is a subtle consciousness experiencing this dropping away.]

         

        "Suddenly, consciousness become submerged"[Note there is no report of loss of consciousness. And what is this in which consciousness has become submerged?]

         

        Here is one I especially love from a mutual friend of Allan and myself, roughly paraphrased:

         

        "The object dissolved, followed by the dissolution of the attention. Then the mind dissolved and consciousness became shrouded."

         

        My own experience was very well illumined and clear, and I reported it to three teachers, one of which was a highly reputed and teacher trained monastic, and another one was a teacher trained layperson. The third was a non-teacher trained lay person with many years of experience. All gave their approval. So clearly there are other acceptalbe models.

         

        2/ It seems to me Culadasa, that you might be overestimating the transformational power of the sotapan experience. Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over time. The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that state. This tells us something important about the center of gravity of that person's deep mindstream. After all, to even have such an experience, how subtle does the mind have to be? You can't fake that. As for the manifestations of defilement, they will have their turn  to fade away by and by. Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotatpanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final nibbana. It could simply be that those who are very transformed by this first experience are among the "higher grades."

         

        I tend to think that the redactors of the Pali cannon were obsessed with purity and good behavior and that as this school of Buddhadhamma progressed it became increasingly "puritanical" in the evolution of the commentaries and continued to raise the bar on the enlightenment until the qualifications for even stage one seem impossible.

         

        3/ Personally, I would account for the differences among these experiences of supermundane voidness as due to the nature of development, especially jhana with which one attains. Many yogis in the Mahasi tradition, while dwelling in Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations for long periods become deeply immersed in very formless states. I would go so are as to say that over time they experience all of the formless jhana in their "vipassana equivalents". I believe that entering into magga-phala from one of these states where the mind is both deeply dissolved and absorbed would lead to something very different than attaining with the mind in a classic brilliant fourth rupajhana.

         

        Best wishes,

         

        Daniel


        --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings to you all!
        > Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having `off line' about topics that were discussed on line while I was on retreat.
        > Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is sensitive and subtle, and important to the `many', both Culadasa and I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will  always be errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always have room for more discussion and other points of view.
        > I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction, followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa's and Matheesha's questions and statements. Then I have posted my request for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for Culadasa's and Matheesha's in order to assist the reader.
        > Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.
        > I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable position. He is trying to help the `many' to realize magga-phala. He is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa's attempts to bring clarity to the subject and to assist `the many' towards more rapid and deeper understanding of meditation.
        > Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices, will be of benefit to the `many'.
        > metta, allan
        >  
        > Greetings all-
        > I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one's own experience and study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a responsibility to add a
        > little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I feel it might be valuable.
        > True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.
        > I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years. This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable, and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist culture.
        > Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka, as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school of practice from which my training originates.
        > That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of my teachers.
        > Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case, during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the testimonials of other kalyanamitta.
        > One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi's teaching of the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe. Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the training if/when the continuity
        > of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and balance.
        > Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost, and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism across a broad range of
        > manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.
        > Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge compliment of trust and respect.
        > If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past, it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is, however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe'.
        > When we create new schools/practices and interpret older traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.
        > We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that each time I have deepened my practice in my more `traditional training', which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding was weak and incomplete.
        > When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive changes occurred.
        > Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school still holds the key to the success' of the past. We need to look to the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular school's understanding and teachings. These new schools have few solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk this particular way before.
        > I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.
        > Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?
        >  In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development.
        > Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.
        > Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional comments.
        > Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and very important part in Mahasi's teachings, but it would be an exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi's teachings. They are a linking part of the Vishuddimagga's analysis of the Path of Purification.
        > Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.
        > Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter' magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?
        > Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking, speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be certain that something profound has occurred.
        > C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.
        > Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which `door' the yogi enters into magga-phala/phala. Higher Paths have a more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.
        > What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/action, not the experience itself.
        > C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others, vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of Path attainment.
        > Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear in the person's behavior.
        > Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon
        > 1)   how a magga-phala moment can be identified
        > 2)   how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)
        > Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one takes a determination that it doesn't), and  the yogi's mind will incline without active intention more and more towards its release. The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise, determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a magga-phala event, but will report
        > funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an Enlightenment event and have not.
        > Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-phala quite thoroughly below.
        > C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any
        > formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi's mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn't happen, the `magga-phala' event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.
        > It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don't know, and so I can't speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to
        > their attenuation. This is where the `saturation of the mind' with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.
        > Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom, depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence, suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the `absolute' and the `ultimate' within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to
        > be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.
        > If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.  
        > So, having done with that digression, let's now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala `event' might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can't possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can
        > seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan writes: This last statement is all too true.)  And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a `real' or `valid' magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else's experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.
        > To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is `just like what I have read and heard about", it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say "Despite what I have read and heard, it's not at all what I was expecting". A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.
        > But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won't go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a `non-event' for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.
        > And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.
        > Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be only available to one who has had what this school believes to have been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.
        > C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest looking for the following points in that description:
        > 1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.
        > Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as cessation or a gap.
        > 2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness, except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness  (Allan writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people. Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and subsequent phala events are phala events.),  of nibbana and/or anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality, Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.
        > 3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of Truth through the stopping of the mind.
        > Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones. My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce remarkable changes in our everyday lives.
        > 4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.
        > Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this event!
        > 5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real, nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just been known.
        > Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?
        > C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology
        > Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance. Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.
        > Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
        > C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience, followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to anything that arises in conscious awareness.
        > Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say above.
        > C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a Sotapanna, the yogi's mind and brain undergo a particular change in regard to the mechanism of self-identification. There is a mechanism in the human mind that performs the function of `selfing', of identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries, and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self construct, the mechanism of `selfing' would not have ceased to function. The nature of the magga-phala
        > event is such that:
        > The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind's `selfing' mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the body/mind/personality as self.
        > This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards upon reflection.
        > The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and identification by the `selfing' mechanism. Thus at any later time, especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as soon as it is recognized.
        > Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the `selfing' mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as "I am THAT" or "I AM that I AM". This can either be held at bay through the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as such a self persists until Arahatship.
        > Allan writes: Extremely well said.
        > C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings, and this, combined with having had a direct experience of undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings of love that naturally follow from one's experience of bliss, because loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.
        > Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved, and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong, and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna's sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a natural and intuitive mode of
        > behaving, rather than following a set of rules.
        > Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.
        > C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought, speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness. As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination that s/he begins the process of
        > uprooting them.
        > Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?' His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who believe that 'dry vipassana' is sufficient to lead a yogi to Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your pick, but whichever you choose, bring the
        > Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.
        > When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The conditioning that comes along with any training will make it difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.
        > Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and happier we all will be.
        > Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa soliciting his input re the above email.
        > From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@...]
        > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM
        > To: Culadasa
        > Subject: help!
        > Hi Culadasa-
        > Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year, extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my plannings...
        > Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided. One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.
        > There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not to post it.
        > I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.
        > I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and effort due to my paucity of ability and the many `disagreements' I have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.
        > Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.
        >  Much metta, allan
        >  
        > Hello Allan,
        > My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.
        > After reading through and pondering upon the various points you have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are "describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results", and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?
        > In one of my earlier posts I suggested that through careful examination "we will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do…", to which you replied:
        > "This statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding."
        > This question I presented as an example actually came from a discussion that took place several years ago, referred to at http://sasanarakkha.org/unfold/archive/2002_11_01_unfold.html, and which I will quote in full here:
        > "Ven. Ariyadhamma Mahathera and Dhammaramsi Thera from Sri Lanka pay us a visit. The Mahathera is a well-known meditation teacher and dhamma speaker in Sri Lanka. Ven. Aggacitta takes the opportunity to discuss and compare the Mahasi and Pa Auk methods of meditation. He seeks the Mahathera's opinion on the view held by some that Mahasi yogis do not experience real insights as what Pa Auk yogis do. The Mahathera disagrees with the view, saying that it is just their concept. He explains that the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development. However, both methods can lead a yogi to enlightenment, he says. The Mahathera has been using the Mahasi method of meditation since 1957 when Mahasi Sayadaw and his assistants went to Sri Lanka to propagate pure-vipassana meditation. Now he prefers the Pa Auk way after his first experience at Pa Auk Forest Monastery
        > in 1997-1998."
        > I confess that I chose this particular question because I so often seem to hear Mahasi-tradition yogis, either subtly or not so subtly, casting doubt upon the validity of insights and realizations attained through other methods, especially methods that emphasize the cultivation of deep concentration. (I am definitely not referring to you or anyone else on this board here!) So I thought it might be helpful to remind ourselves that this can cut both ways. The conclusion, the important one implied in the question itself, is simply that there are indeed differences. The important question, the same one we are asking ourselves here, is whether these are fundamental differences in the attainments themselves, or perhaps significant but still comparatively superficial differences related to the details of the practice, such as the degree of concentration development. Ariyadhamma Mahathera's answer is clearly that there is in fact no fundamental difference (or
        > 'marginal' quality!) to the understanding of either school and that both lead to enlightenment. This is an open minded point of view, and is important in that it comes from someone who has practiced and taught both of these methods.
        > By the way, your statement:
        > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training"
        > seems to attempt to usurp both the Vissudhimagga and indeed all of the Theravada to the Mahasi way, leaving Pa Auk and many other Theravadin paths, both Suttic and Vissudhimagga-based, out in the cold. I would rather you said something like:
        > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the particular modern interpretation of the Path of Purification developed, expounded and disseminated by Mahasi Sayadaw and his students as one of several different expressions of the Theravada way..."
        > Allan writes: You are correct, the words I used implied unintentionally a usurping of said practices into Mahasi. I always try to make this distinction and not fall prey to an unconscious chauvinism, but missed it here. I have made the correction in my note. Thank you. 
        > C: I would like to continue our discussion by summarizing the main points of difference that you have brought forth, as I see them:
        >  1. Magga-phala and phala described as a fully conscious event
        >  versus
        > Magga-phala and phala described as a gap, lapse, or in some sense a cessation of consciousness.
        > This is more than just interesting. I see it as potentially the most significant issue under examination.
        >  2. Magga-phala and phala understood not as a state (of mind) that is attained, but as the discovery of an ever-present reality revealed through "the stopping of the mind"
        >  versus
        >  Magga-phala and phala as a novel `event' that the "mind is drawn towards" (which is therefore not pre-existing, much less ever-present), and as a "state of mind" that must be revisited as an ontologically de novo reality on subsequent occasions.
        > This may be either a profound difference in philosophical interpretation with huge implications for the question of whether or not we are indeed talking about the same thing, or it may be nothing more than a problem of semantics that is easily resolved through our being consistent with each other in how we use terms like `reality', `event', `mind', and `mental state'.
        > 3. Magga-phala as an experience which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice
        >  versus
        >  Magga-phala as always the same except for very subtle differences.
        > For clarification, I emphasize the word experience. As you said elsewhere, magga-phala is magga-phala and phala is phala, and by their characteristic of penetrating to an ultimate true nature, they must be always and everywhere the same. This can be taken as given and quite beyond dispute. But the experience of magga-phala is something else again. The experience of magga-phala is subjective, mind-dependent, and also `recollected' (or not!) after the event when pondering and verbal description occur. And this subjective, mind-dependent, recollected experience is what I suggest to be highly variable, dependent upon the individual, their path of practice, and, of course, their preconceptions and prior conditioning. Of course, if you are suggesting that the experience is always the same regardless of how it is achieved, then only one or the other of magga-phala as a fully conscious event or as a gap in consciousness can be describing the `real'
        > magga-phala. If, on the other hand, you mean to say that the experience is always the same when achieved within the context of Mahasi-tradition practices, then that leaves open the possibility that both descriptions represent genuine magga-phala as achieved through different paths of practice. I gladly withdraw my previous assertion that "it [is] in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness", with profound apologies, and include the experience of just such a gap within the possible range of magga-phala experiences.
        > Allan writes: I am truly grateful to the subtlety of your mind. In the above paragraph you make clear what I was unable to do in my note and comments. I can speak only to Mahasi path `experiences', and have no authority to assess other paths except, as discussed in the post. Due to this narrow point of view I am obliged to simply be an observer of what I perceive to be the relative results of another school or another person's perceived Enlightenment experience.
        > 4. "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as a description of magga-phala
        >  versus
        > "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as a description of a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
        > To my knowledge and in my experience, there is no such thing as a (mundane) jhana in which there is no object and no self as observer (although it can sometimes seem to be the case, at least until repeated experience with the jhana reveals that the familiar subject-object duality is in fact still present). The exception to this would be the so-called 9th jhana of cessation, or nirodha samapati, which is none other than the jhana of remainderless nibbana. I don't think that is what you mean, but if it is then I agree with you completely, and I will also point out that the cessation referred to in the description of the 9th jhana is a cessation of feeling and perception, not of consciousness. I don't know if it is the case within the Mahasi tradition, but magga-phala and phala samapati are commonly described as jhanic and are often referred to as the `supramundane' jhanas.
        >  
        > I wish to return now to the first issue, magga-phala and phala as a fully conscious event versus a gap or cessation of consciousness.
        > As a result of childhood encephalitis, for several of my adolescent years I was subject to a type of petit mal epileptic seizure, known as `absences'. For a period of anywhere between 10 seconds and a minute or so there would be a complete lapse in consciousness. Apparently I would sometimes stop talking in the middle of a sentence and resume as though there had been no interruption 30 seconds later. I was completely unaware of these lapses until I learned to recognize them through other people's reactions or because something had abruptly changed in an unexpected way. At some point I realized that my eyes always turned up involuntarily just before one of these seizures, so I knew if I felt my eyes roll up in my head that I was having one. But otherwise, without these cues, I would never know a lapse in consciousness had occurred. I am curious to know more about the gaps you speak of. Obviously you know when a phala event has occurred, so it is
        > different from petit mal absences in that regard, but how do you become aware of the `gap'?
        > Allan writes: A meditator when first becoming familiar with `gaps' will become aware of them by various means of deduction. The mind will have a different outlook afterwards, depending on the length of the gap the meditator will notice an absence of time, there will often be very telling physical symptoms on return, etc. As the meditator becomes familiar with the experience due to exposure, or training in determinations, the `gaps' will be seen to be coming, and the mind will clearly follow the progression back into `consciousness'.
        > C: I realize that to speak of consciousness in the absence of any subject-object duality may seem illogical and incomprehensible in terms of common experience, but it is far more intelligible than it appears, and definitely becomes more so upon repeated experience. It is within this very contradiction that the transformative power of magga-phala lies. For my part, I am rather puzzled as to how it might work its magic in a lapse of consciousness, and am quite fascinated to learn more.
        > Allan writes: Me too. I can only guess, but it is my intuitive point of view that the more often we train the mind to go `against the stream' the more that type of conditioning will affect the mind stream. What that type of conditioning may mean beyond a demonstrable increase in wholesome thought/speech/action is beyond my curiosity or expertise. It appears that this type of training, coupled with good community, study, and strong intention towards continuity of attention will re-condition the mind in remarkablely wholesome ways.
        > C: I am reminded of another kind of gap that I have experienced. Twice now I have been subject to a medical procedure that was performed using a form of intravenous anesthesia that left me simultaneously able to communicate verbally with the physician (and my wife, who was also present) yet entirely without any memory of the event. In fact, I came out of the anesthesia wondering when it was going to begin and was surprised to learn it was already over with! According to the perceptions of others, because I was able to answer questions, presumably I was conscious, but from my own point of view in a later time frame, I was not. Not to draw any specific conclusions from this, but as a possible piece in the larger puzzle, might it not point to the possibility of an experience that is both conscious and also has a lasting impact on the mind, yet also is subsequently perceived as a lapse or gap in consciousness? Psychological studies involving hypnosis have
        > demonstrated quite well that sensory experiences can sometimes register in memory without our having been consciously aware of them at the time of their occurrence, and the anesthesia experience I describe seems to point to the opposite possibility, that sensory experience can register in consciousness without being retained in memory. Alcoholic blackouts might be yet another example. Thus recollection and conscious awareness are not necessarily indissolubly linked. I apologize if this is pointless digression, but it does somehow seem relevant.
        > Allan writes: Clearly the mind will do many things that are similar, and might even have similar pathways. Just as an arm can do similar things by lifting or pushing this object or that without these actions being the same in action or consequence. A person who gets hypnotized, or blacks out due to drugs/alcohol, or has a seizure, or someone who has a `gap' as a result of meditative training will all have `gaps'. The way that the `gap' occurs is the telling piece. As you know, it takes a wonderful amount of continuous training for most of us to realize the type of `gaps' that is under discussion. It is the training that allows the `gap' to arise. Too often we have a tendency to ignore or minimize the training when we look at the `bells and whistles'. I maintain that it is the training that is the most important part of this whole thing.
        > C: By the way, whereas you say "if consciousness exists while in this state of mind it is of a type that does not register at all on any sense door", I am more inclined to say that consciousness never registers at any sense door, but rather that it is the objects presented via the sense doors that register in consciousness. And ditto for registration in memory. The sense doors receive much that is never presented to either. The senses and sense objects (including the mind sense and mental objects) are how the mind normally experiences consciousness, and therefore with respect to a temporally distant interval, it is usually the memory of the sense objects by which the mind both identifies the time interval and is retrospectively informed that consciousness was present.
        > Allan writes: In as much as I agree with the notion that because of time lapse between an object meeting a sense door, the electrical impulse going to the brain, and the brain analyzing the data we are all living in the past. That said, I don't understand, and my mind does not `care' much about this part of the psycho/physical aspects of meditation and spirituality. My concern, and my predilections are to see how, with the tools available, whether or not I am able to bring clear attention to the process that is at hand. That is all. Clearly there can be seen a flaw in this logic, but it is how this mind is working re these issues at this time.
        > Culadasa responds: I'm not entirely sure you grasped my point. I reject the idea that consciousness normally `registers' anywhere, much less that the sense doors could be the locus of such registration of consciousness. And I would take the term `sense doors' here to refer to the cognizing cittas rather than the physical sense organs, so the time lapse of the electrical impulse going to the brain has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Rather, consciousness and memory are two separate and distinct kinds of `mindstuff' upon which the registration of sense objects can occur, distinct from each other and distinct from the sense doors. But only a small minority of all sensations presented at the mind door from the sense doors ever register at all in either one. Given that most of what is presented by the five physical sense doors never registers in either consciousness or memory, some sense data still seems nevertheless to register in
        > memory independently of consciousness, since (1) information subliminal to conscious awareness can still affect future action, and (2) sense data that never registered in conscious awareness (presumably because consciousness was preoccupied with something else at the time) can still be recalled through hypnosis. More to the point

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      • matheesha
        Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa, I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in: I would
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 28, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,

          I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of
          this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:

          I would like to make two points/observations:

          1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
          phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by seeing
          the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by being
          constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self, or
          foulness).

          The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
          immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
          widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
          heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
          rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be repeated a
          few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows in
          the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days. There
          can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience or
          not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the satipatthana
          practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.

          However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
          immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of nothingness,
          a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also theoretically
          acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which arises
          is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden' (of
          the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is essential
          I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just to
          muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a person
          may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back, especially
          when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is a
          much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.

          I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar religious
          experiences. However despite the similarities the most important aspect
          of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this buddhist
          experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with God
          there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
          experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.

          Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate that
          person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone was
          an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
          experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.

          There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is projected
          into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by fetters
          clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
          samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength of a
          magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the faculties
          arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.

          Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
          going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is aware
          only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs after a
          little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
          practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because clearly
          there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the conceptual
          entities of samatha and vipassana).

          It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can be
          reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
          into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the mind can
          go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I have
          heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala, when
          there can only be 4 according to the texts!

          I hope that illuminates..

          with metta

          M








          If I were called upon to decide w
        • matheesha
          I might add that magga-phala like experiences dont produce the changes associated with the real thing. Hence the confusion why some of these events seem to
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 28, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I might add that magga-phala 'like' experiences dont produce the
            changes associated with the real thing. Hence the confusion why some
            of these events seem to be ineffective can be resolved.

            I agree with Daniel that the changes can vary enormously. However I
            think common factors are -faith in the buddha,dhamma,sangha as the
            path to liberation; keeping 'one eye on the path' whatever one does
            in life, answering 'no' to the question 'if you went to a quiet
            place, all by yourself and true to your heart asked yourself is there
            a self, what would you say' without a moments hesitation or wavering.

            The morality generated seems internally driven. There is a great
            reluctance to continue to do wrong, even though one can do it if one
            wanted to - a bit like trying to keep a rubber ball under water.

            with metta

            M



            --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
            >
            > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of
            > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
            >
            > I would like to make two points/observations:
            >
            > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
            > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by
            seeing
            > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by
            being
            > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self,
            or
            > foulness).
            >
            > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
            > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
            > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
            > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
            > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be repeated
            a
            > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows
            in
            > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
            There
            > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience
            or
            > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
            satipatthana
            > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
            >
            > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
            > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
            nothingness,
            > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
            theoretically
            > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
            arises
            > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden'
            (of
            > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
            essential
            > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just to
            > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a
            person
            > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
            especially
            > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is
            a
            > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
            >
            > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar religious
            > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important
            aspect
            > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this buddhist
            > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with
            God
            > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
            > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
            >
            > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate
            that
            > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone
            was
            > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
            > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
            >
            > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
            projected
            > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
            fetters
            > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
            > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength
            of a
            > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
            faculties
            > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
            >
            > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
            > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is
            aware
            > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs
            after a
            > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
            > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because
            clearly
            > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
            conceptual
            > entities of samatha and vipassana).
            >
            > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can
            be
            > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
            > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the mind
            can
            > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I
            have
            > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala,
            when
            > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
            >
            > I hope that illuminates..
            >
            > with metta
            >
            > M
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > If I were called upon to decide w
            >
          • Culadasa
            Hello Daniel,   Thank you very much for your comments and observations. They are helpful.   1/ You say: You both seem to have made an assumption about the
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 28, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Daniel,
               
              Thank you very much for your comments and observations. They are helpful.
               
              1/ You say: "You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training...".
               
              It was not really just an assumption. Allan is going by his own personal experience, and yours is the first confirmation I have been able to obtain that a Mahasi yogi's magga-phala might take different forms. See http://www.palikanon.com/english/practice_insight/characteristics_of_forgetting.htm for example.
               
              Your own experience, verified by your teachers, that of another friend of yours, and the examples you give from the 'secret' materials, suggests that Mahasi teachers are aware of these variations in the experience as well. Having this kind of information out in the open can only help dispell some of the confusion that arises when people hear of experiences that differ from their own, and then begin to question the validity of those different experiences, and especially to question the validity of other practices that give rise to differing experiences. You have made a valuable contribution towards greater understanding and openess among yogis of the various traditions.
               
              2/ I don't know why you think I am "overestimating the transformational power of the sotapan experience". You have said, "Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over time." What I said was,  "I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment." Don't you think we are both saying the same thing?
               
              You say, "The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that state."  This is a generalization that will only be true if the mind is thoroughly trained in its ability to create the conditions for phala, i.e what you refer to as 'deep practice'. When the magga-phala experience occurs 'spontaneously', or in someone following a path of practice that is not as systematic as most Buddhist practices (and I would include Christian, Jewish and Islamic mysticism and certain forms of Advaita practices in this category), or in someone whose practice of one of the Buddhist methods is not yet mature, then the mind may never again find its way back to emergence and phala.
               
              You say, "Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotapanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final nibbana." Please tell us more! This is completely new information for me. I was not previously aware of there being seven different levels of sotapana. Are there specific suttas, commentaries or other teachings to this effect? Or is this something you have inferred as being implied by the statement that as many as 7 lifetimes may be required for complete liberation? Allan had asked at one point if there might be such a thing as 'magga-phala light', and this would suggest that such a thing is possible.
               
              3/ We are both speculating here, but I would agree with you that one factor in different experiences is the yogi's previous familiarity with jhanic absorption, whether it is understood and identified as such, or whether it is what you refer to as the "vipassana equivalents". (I would say jhana is jhana, Equanimity Towards Formations is identical in every respect, both subjectively and in terms of yours and anyone else's verbal descriptions, to the fully developed Upacara Samadhi of Samatha attainment, and so it is only to be expected that those who dwell in that state for long periods are going to slip into jhanas.) Prior experience with mundane absorptions will make the experience of supramundane absorption much, much clearer.
               
              But as I suggested in the Long Post of my discussion with Allan, I believe another very important factor to be previous experience with holding consciousness itself as a primary object of mindful awareness. This consciousness of consciousness is a consistently important feature of many Mahayana meditations. And it is an inevitable aspect of sustained Samatha, except of course when the yogi insists on rushing single-pointedly into absorption, but even then it will occur with absorption at the level of the Fourth Jhana.
               
              Thank you again,
              Culadasa
               


              --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Daniel <drbf2@...> wrote:
              From: Daniel <drbf2@...>
              Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Discussion with Culadasa and Allan
              To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:08 PM

               

              Dear Allan and Culadasa,

               

              Here are just a few point of observation I would like to add to your posted conversation:

               

              1/ You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training that I do not believe is correct. It does not always present as an unconscious gap. Here are two examples that I gleaned directly from "secret" Mahasi approved materials:

               

              "Mind and matter dropped away like a stone." [Dropped away from what? Presumably there is a subtle consciousness experiencing this dropping away.]

               

              "Suddenly, consciousness become submerged"[Note there is no report of loss of consciousness. And what is this in which consciousness has become submerged?]

               

              Here is one I especially love from a mutual friend of Allan and myself, roughly paraphrased:

               

              "The object dissolved, followed by the dissolution of the attention. Then the mind dissolved and consciousness became shrouded."

               

              My own experience was very well illumined and clear, and I reported it to three teachers, one of which was a highly reputed and teacher trained monastic, and another one was a teacher trained layperson. The third was a non-teacher trained lay person with many years of experience. All gave their approval. So clearly there are other acceptalbe models.

               

              2/ It seems to me Culadasa, that you might be overestimating the transformational power of the sotapan experience. Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over time. The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that state. This tells us something important about the center of gravity of that person's deep mindstream. After all, to even have such an experience, how subtle does the mind have to be? You can't fake that. As for the manifestations of defilement, they will have their turn  to fade away by and by. Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotatpanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final nibbana. It could simply be that those who are very transformed by this first experience are among the "higher grades."

               

              I tend to think that the redactors of the Pali cannon were obsessed with purity and good behavior and that as this school of Buddhadhamma progressed it became increasingly "puritanical" in the evolution of the commentaries and continued to raise the bar on the enlightenment until the qualifications for even stage one seem impossible.

               

              3/ Personally, I would account for the differences among these experiences of supermundane voidness as due to the nature of development, especially jhana with which one attains. Many yogis in the Mahasi tradition, while dwelling in Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations for long periods become deeply immersed in very formless states. I would go so are as to say that over time they experience all of the formless jhana in their "vipassana equivalents" . I believe that entering into magga-phala from one of these states where the mind is both deeply dissolved and absorbed would lead to something very different than attaining with the mind in a classic brilliant fourth rupajhana.

               

              Best wishes,

               

              Daniel


              --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings to you all!
              > Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having `off line' about topics that were discussed on line while I was on retreat.
              > Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is sensitive and subtle, and important to the `many', both Culadasa and I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will  always be errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always have room for more discussion and other points of view.
              > I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction, followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa's and Matheesha's questions and statements. Then I have posted my request for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for Culadasa's and Matheesha's in order to assist the reader.
              > Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.
              > I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable position. He is trying to help the `many' to realize magga-phala. He is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa's attempts to bring clarity to the subject and to assist `the many' towards more rapid and deeper understanding of meditation.
              > Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices, will be of benefit to the `many'.
              > metta, allan
              >  
              > Greetings all-
              > I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one's own experience and study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a responsibility to add a
              > little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I feel it might be valuable.
              > True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.
              > I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years. This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable, and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist culture.
              > Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka, as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school of practice from which my training originates.
              > That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of my teachers.
              > Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case, during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the testimonials of other kalyanamitta.
              > One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi's teaching of the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe. Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the training if/when the continuity
              > of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and balance.
              > Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost, and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism across a broad range of
              > manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.
              > Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge compliment of trust and respect.
              > If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past, it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is, however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe' .
              > When we create new schools/practices and interpret older traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.
              > We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that each time I have deepened my practice in my more `traditional training', which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding was weak and incomplete.
              > When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive changes occurred.
              > Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school still holds the key to the success' of the past. We need to look to the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular school's understanding and teachings. These new schools have few solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk this particular way before.
              > I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.
              > Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?
              >  In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development.
              > Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.
              > Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional comments.
              > Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and very important part in Mahasi's teachings, but it would be an exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi's teachings. They are a linking part of the Vishuddimagga' s analysis of the Path of Purification.
              > Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.
              > Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter' magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?
              > Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking, speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be certain that something profound has occurred.
              > C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.
              > Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which `door' the yogi enters into magga-phala/ phala. Higher Paths have a more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.
              > What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/ action, not the experience itself.
              > C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others, vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of Path attainment.
              > Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear in the person's behavior.
              > Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon
              > 1)   how a magga-phala moment can be identified
              > 2)   how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)
              > Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one takes a determination that it doesn't), and  the yogi's mind will incline without active intention more and more towards its release. The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise, determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a magga-phala event, but will report
              > funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an Enlightenment event and have not.
              > Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-phala quite thoroughly below.
              > C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any
              > formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi's mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn't happen, the `magga-phala' event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.
              > It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don't know, and so I can't speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to
              > their attenuation. This is where the `saturation of the mind' with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.
              > Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom, depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence, suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the `absolute' and the `ultimate' within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to
              > be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.
              > If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.  
              > So, having done with that digression, let's now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala `event' might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can't possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can
              > seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan writes: This last statement is all too true.)  And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a `real' or `valid' magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else's experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.
              > To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is `just like what I have read and heard about", it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say "Despite what I have read and heard, it's not at all what I was expecting". A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.
              > But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won't go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a `non-event' for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.
              > And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.
              > Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be only available to one who has had what this school believes to have been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.
              > C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest looking for the following points in that description:
              > 1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.
              > Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as cessation or a gap.
              > 2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness, except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness  (Allan writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people. Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and subsequent phala events are phala events.),  of nibbana and/or anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality, Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.
              > 3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of Truth through the stopping of the mind.
              > Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones. My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce remarkable changes in our everyday lives.
              > 4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.
              > Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this event!
              > 5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real, nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just been known.
              > Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?
              > C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology
              > Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance. Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.
              > Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
              > C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience, followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to anything that arises in conscious awareness.
              > Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say above.
              > C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a Sotapanna, the yogi's mind and brain undergo a particular change in regard to the mechanism of self-identification . There is a mechanism in the human mind that performs the function of `selfing', of identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries, and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self construct, the mechanism of `selfing' would not have ceased to function. The nature of the magga-phala
              > event is such that:
              > The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind's `selfing' mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the body/mind/personali ty as self.
              > This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards upon reflection.
              > The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and identification by the `selfing' mechanism. Thus at any later time, especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as soon as it is recognized.
              > Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the `selfing' mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as "I am THAT" or "I AM that I AM". This can either be held at bay through the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as such a self persists until Arahatship.
              > Allan writes: Extremely well said.
              > C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings, and this, combined with having had a direct experience of undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings of love that naturally follow from one's experience of bliss, because loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.
              > Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved, and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong, and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna's sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a natural and intuitive mode of
              > behaving, rather than following a set of rules.
              > Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.
              > C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought, speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness. As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination that s/he begins the process of
              > uprooting them.
              > Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?' His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who believe that 'dry vipassana' is sufficient to lead a yogi to Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your pick, but whichever you choose, bring the
              > Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.
              > When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The conditioning that comes along with any training will make it difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.
              > Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and happier we all will be.
              > Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa soliciting his input re the above email.
              > From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@ ...]
              > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM
              > To: Culadasa
              > Subject: help!
              > Hi Culadasa-
              > Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year, extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my plannings...
              > Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided. One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.
              > There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not to post it.
              > I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.
              > I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and effort due to my paucity of ability and the many `disagreements' I have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.
              > Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.
              >  Much metta, allan
              >  
              > Hello Allan,
              > My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.
              > After reading through and pondering upon the various points you have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are "describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results", and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?
              > In one of my earlier posts I suggested that through careful examination "we will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do…", to which you replied:
              > "This statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. "
              > This question I presented as an example actually came from a discussion that took place several years ago, referred to at http://sasanarakkha .org/unfold/ archive/2002_ 11_01_unfold. html, and which I will quote in full here:
              > "Ven. Ariyadhamma Mahathera and Dhammaramsi Thera from Sri Lanka pay us a visit. The Mahathera is a well-known meditation teacher and dhamma speaker in Sri Lanka. Ven. Aggacitta takes the opportunity to discuss and compare the Mahasi and Pa Auk methods of meditation. He seeks the Mahathera's opinion on the view held by some that Mahasi yogis do not experience real insights as what Pa Auk yogis do. The Mahathera disagrees with the view, saying that it is just their concept. He explains that the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development. However, both methods can lead a yogi to enlightenment, he says. The Mahathera has been using the Mahasi method of meditation since 1957 when Mahasi Sayadaw and his assistants went to Sri Lanka to propagate pure-vipassana meditation. Now he prefers the Pa Auk way after his first experience at Pa Auk Forest Monastery
              > in 1997-1998."
              > I confess that I chose this particular question because I so often seem to hear Mahasi-tradition yogis, either subtly or not so subtly, casting doubt upon the validity of insights and realizations attained through other methods, especially methods that emphasize the cultivation of deep concentration. (I am definitely not referring to you or anyone else on this board here!) So I thought it might be helpful to remind ourselves that this can cut both ways. The conclusion, the important one implied in the question itself, is simply that there are indeed differences. The important question, the same one we are asking ourselves here, is whether these are fundamental differences in the attainments themselves, or perhaps significant but still comparatively superficial differences related to the details of the practice, such as the degree of concentration development. Ariyadhamma Mahathera's answer is clearly that there is in fact no fundamental difference (or
              > 'marginal' quality!) to the understanding of either school and that both lead to enlightenment. This is an open minded point of view, and is important in that it comes from someone who has practiced and taught both of these methods.
              > By the way, your statement:
              > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training"
              > seems to attempt to usurp both the Vissudhimagga and indeed all of the Theravada to the Mahasi way, leaving Pa Auk and many other Theravadin paths, both Suttic and Vissudhimagga- based, out in the cold. I would rather you said something like:
              > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the particular modern interpretation of the Path of Purification developed, expounded and disseminated by Mahasi Sayadaw and his students as one of several different expressions of the Theravada way..."
              > Allan writes: You are correct, the words I used implied unintentionally a usurping of said practices into Mahasi. I always try to make this distinction and not fall prey to an unconscious chauvinism, but missed it here. I have made the correction in my note. Thank you. 
              > C: I would like to continue our discussion by summarizing the main points of difference that you have brought forth, as I see them:
              >  1. Magga-phala and phala described as a fully conscious event
              >  versus
              > Magga-phala and phala described as a gap, lapse, or in some sense a cessation of consciousness.
              > This is more than just interesting. I see it as potentially the most significant issue under examination.
              >  2. Magga-phala and phala understood not as a state (of mind) that is attained, but as the discovery of an ever-present reality revealed through "the stopping of the mind"
              >  versus
              >  Magga-phala and phala as a novel `event' that the "mind is drawn towards" (which is therefore not pre-existing, much less ever-present) , and as a "state of mind" that must be revisited as an ontologically de novo reality on subsequent occasions.
              > This may be either a profound difference in philosophical interpretation with huge implications for the question of whether or not we are indeed talking about the same thing, or it may be nothing more than a problem of semantics that is easily resolved through our being consistent with each other in how we use terms like `reality', `event', `mind', and `mental state'.
              > 3. Magga-phala as an experience which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice
              >  versus
              >  Magga-phala as always the same except for very subtle differences.
              > For clarification, I emphasize the word experience. As you said elsewhere, magga-phala is magga-phala and phala is phala, and by their characteristic of penetrating to an ultimate true nature, they must be always and everywhere the same. This can be taken as given and quite beyond dispute. But the experience of magga-phala is something else again. The experience of magga-phala is subjective, mind-dependent, and also `recollected' (or not!) after the event when pondering and verbal description occur. And this subjective, mind-dependent, recollected experience is what I suggest to be highly variable, dependent upon the individual, their path of practice, and, of course, their preconceptions and prior conditioning. Of course, if you are suggesting that the experience is always the same regardless of how it is achieved, then only one or the other of magga-phala as a fully conscious event or as a gap in consciousness can be describing the `real'
              > magga-phala. If, on the other hand, you mean to say that the experience is always the same when achieved within the context of Mahasi-tradition practices, then that leaves open the possibility that both descriptions represent genuine magga-phala as achieved through different paths of practice. I gladly withdraw my previous assertion that "it [is] in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness" , with profound apologies, and include the experience of just such a gap within the possible range of magga-phala experiences.
              > Allan writes: I am truly grateful to the subtlety of your mind. In the above paragraph you make clear what I was unable to do in my note and comments. I can speak only to Mahasi path `experiences' , and have no authority to assess other paths except, as discussed in the post. Due to this narrow point of view I am obliged to simply be an observer of what I perceive to be the relative results of another school or another person's perceived Enlightenment experience.
              > 4. "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as a description of magga-phala
              >  versus
              > "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as a description of a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
              > To my knowledge and in my experience, there is no such thing as a (mundane) jhana in which there is no object and no self as observer (although it can sometimes seem to be the case, at least until repeated experience with the jhana reveals that the familiar subject-object duality is in fact still present). The exception to this would be the so-called 9th jhana of cessation, or nirodha samapati, which is none other than the jhana of remainderless nibbana. I don't think that is what you mean, but if it is then I agree with you completely, and I will also point out that the cessation referred to in the description of the 9th jhana is a cessation of feeling and perception, not of consciousness. I don't know if it is the case within the Mahasi tradition, but magga-phala and phala samapati are commonly described as jhanic and are often referred to as the `supramundane' jhanas.
              >  
              > I wish to return now to the first issue, magga-phala and phala as a fully conscious event versus a gap or cessation of consciousness.
              > As a result of childhood encephalitis, for several of my adolescent years I was subject to a type of petit mal epileptic seizure, known as `absences'. For a period of anywhere between 10 seconds and a minute or so there would be a complete lapse in consciousness. Apparently I would sometimes stop talking in the middle of a sentence and resume as though there had been no interruption 30 seconds later. I was completely unaware of these lapses until I learned to recognize them through other people's reactions or because something had abruptly changed in an unexpected way. At some point I realized that my eyes always turned up involuntarily just before one of these seizures, so I knew if I felt my eyes roll up in my head that I was having one. But otherwise, without these cues, I would never know a lapse in consciousness had occurred. I am curious to know more about the gaps you speak of. Obviously you

              (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
            • William Chu
              Hello Mattheesha, This is very interesting, and indeed illuminating. If what you say is at least partially representative of the Mahasi tradition, then I think
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 28, 2009
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                Hello Mattheesha,

                This is very interesting, and indeed illuminating.
                If what you say is at least partially representative of the Mahasi
                tradition, then I think I'm beginning to see how the different usage
                of language leads to disagreements over content. But still we might
                want to reconsider whether all the generalizations you listed are
                invariably true, at the same time, I would appreciate further
                clarifications from you based on what I want to say.
                I offer to share my own experience without wanting to intimate
                whether I or anyone else have had the "genuine" magga-phala
                ("genuine" according to whom?), except to illustrate one kind of
                process and its effect.
                In the past I have been reluctant to divulge such personal things
                except to a small group of fellow yogis, but since I consider this
                ongoing dialogue by so many experienced and motivated cultivators to
                be a valuable and potentially field-changing effort, I believe it is
                appropriate to discuss this without unduly causing confusion.
                In my college years, I had the habit of meditating and contemplating
                the themes of impermanence, dukkha, and no-self at the school's
                botanical garden, in between and after my classes. On one occasion,
                when I was contemplating the Dharma in such a manner, (and I was NOT
                meditating on this occasion, much to my perplexity given what
                followed) I did experience this "coning effect" that you described,
                consummating in this "letting go of the burdens of aggregates."
                (interesting how I reported this experience to several meditation
                teachers using precisely those terms!)
                This did not take place in the form of time-slowing-down or time-
                stopping or unconsciousness or loss of mental object--and that was
                why I had read the traditional Mahasi descriptions with a sense of
                mystique and suspicion.
                Rather, it took the form of the cessation of feeling of a participant
                in the aggregates, and the mind becomes "pure" as a result of not
                feeling that there's a true divide between subject and object or in
                fact any real subject or object--the mind did not disappear (sensory
                functions continue normally), just the sense of subject and object.
                It felt to me like the ground from which the mind derives its sense
                of existence was shattered (the mind "evaporates" of the substance
                that gives rise to the feeling that it is an I, but phenomenal
                reality continues to unfold).
                The mind remained fully conscious throughout, and there is
                no "turning around" or any such discernible sensation, except a
                sudden, clear, and bright realization that there is never a self in
                all phenomena, and that the mind only suffers when it holds on
                illusory subjects and objects.
                This was followed by a great sense of relief--"there's not a problem
                to begin with," I actually called out at that moment of exuberance.
                For a period of four or five days, I basked in great joy--a deep joy
                that did not come from the mere presence of happy feelings, but from
                the conviction that the mind is originally free without having to
                rely on happy feelings or any state to "be home."
                A college friend at the time commented on how all of a sudden I
                looked like a different person, with the way I spoke, acted, even
                glowed. She asked this with genuine puzzlement before I told her
                about my experience. That palpable rapturous joy eventually faded,
                but an unmovable conviction about no-self and a newfound, all
                surrendering devotion to the Dharma have remained.
                Ever since, I could freely go into a mode where only processes of
                aggregates are seen without any sense of participation. Is this
                practice the equivalent of the review of magga-phala according to the
                Mahasi tradition?
                It doesn't sound like the Mahasi magga-phala at least as far as I
                could see, because supposedly the latter would preclude ordinary
                activities such as driving. And yet, this is something that I could
                readily experience in everyday activity. All the Mahayana teachers I
                spoke to and all the Theravada meditators except one, told me that
                that college experience amounted to the Path of Vision, the
                anupatthika-dharma-ksanti, the realization of emptiness, stream-
                entry, and so forth, according to their languages. Yet, I have never
                been able to "review" or "return" to any Mahasi-style magga-phala
                where consciousness is supposed to blank out and be devoid of any
                conscious object. A few teachers I spoke to in fact denounced that
                kind of prevalent Mahasi magga-phala descriptions as deviant and not
                necessarily the real thing, while affirming that what I had reported
                was much more common and "orthodox."
                This is with all due respect to Mahasi practitioners, since I do not
                subscribe to such categorical denunciation. Despite that I highly
                suspect the claim of magga-phala by some Mahasi practitioners due to
                their persistent behavioral problems, there are also those Mahasi
                practitioners with claims to magga-phala moments whose transformation
                is very convincing. Hence my observations that there are those with
                no discernible magga-phala moments who fit the traditional
                definitions of stream-enterers, and those who claim to have magga-
                phala moments and yet continue to behave or react in questionable
                manners.
                I am rambling. But I thought to share this little something since I
                doubt that this kind of conversation is even conceivable outside of
                this forum.
                With metta,
                William



                --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                >
                > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of
                > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                >
                > I would like to make two points/observations:
                >
                > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
                > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by
                seeing
                > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by
                being
                > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self,
                or
                > foulness).
                >
                > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
                > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
                > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
                > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
                > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be repeated
                a
                > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows
                in
                > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                There
                > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience
                or
                > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                satipatthana
                > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                >
                > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
                > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                nothingness,
                > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                theoretically
                > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                arises
                > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden'
                (of
                > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                essential
                > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just to
                > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a
                person
                > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                especially
                > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is
                a
                > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                >
                > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar religious
                > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important
                aspect
                > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this buddhist
                > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with
                God
                > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
                > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                >
                > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate
                that
                > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone
                was
                > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                >
                > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                projected
                > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                fetters
                > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
                > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength
                of a
                > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                faculties
                > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                >
                > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
                > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is
                aware
                > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs
                after a
                > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
                > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because
                clearly
                > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                conceptual
                > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                >
                > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can
                be
                > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the mind
                can
                > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I
                have
                > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala,
                when
                > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                >
                > I hope that illuminates..
                >
                > with metta
                >
                > M
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > If I were called upon to decide w
                >
              • matheesha
                Hi Culladasa, others.. This discussion is certainly informing my views of the magga-phala experience. I have heard from my teachers (mahasi lineage) that the
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  Hi Culladasa, others..

                  This discussion is certainly informing my views of the magga-phala
                  experience. I have heard from my teachers (mahasi lineage) that the
                  magga-phala experience can be very different for different people. I
                  have even heard that the phala experience can also be different-
                  which is something I dont completely agree with- because if it is to
                  be a sustained experience of phala-citta then it cannot have an
                  object. However retains the 'stone skipping over water' quality which
                  I believe Alan mentioned.

                  What is the test that someoen is a sotapanna? This is the question
                  isnt it? It is interesting that the Buddha didnt see this obscure
                  magga-phala moment as the pointer- but rather qualities of the person
                  concerned. We musn't forget that we are trying to define the Buddha's
                  magg-aphala, not Mahasi sayadaw's! One could argue that to see the
                  3rd noble truth (seeing the 4 noble truths being a quality of a
                  sotapanna) one must have a magga phala experience, but then that is
                  not part of the common formulation for sotapannas. In the common
                  formulation 'unshakebable faith in the dhamma' is characterised by
                  the dhamma as 'leading onwards' -opanaiko. This is as close to the
                  magga-phala experience it comes (direct seeing- sadittitko, can be at
                  lower stages of satipatthana development). However even in this there
                  is scope for sotapanna magga people and sotapanna phala people as
                  being two different stages. It could be characterised as magga people
                  as those who have reached the 'magga-magga nana dassana visuddhi'
                  knowing and seeing what is path and not path' stage of purification.
                  The rest of the purifications have knowing and seeing attached to
                  them, and sotapannas are supposed to 'know and see' (nana dassana).
                  This maybe a reason why the magga-phala moments is not a
                  prerequisite, as even magga people will reach phala atleast at the
                  point of death if I am not mistaken. The Buddha pointed to the two
                  trees behind him and said that if these two trees could understand
                  the difference between right and wrong he would proclaim them stream
                  entrants. Are we keeping the bar too high?

                  I must say that I dont agree that sankharaupekkha nana and upacara
                  samatha samadhi are the same. They might feel the same way as far as
                  the arising objects go, but has anyone looked at the emotional tone
                  behind it? This has to be different if it is based on an insight
                  process. I agree that the level of samadhi might be equivalent.
                  However we know that even equanimity can hide ignorance/avijja. One
                  is without the other is with. Letting go in one is based on the power
                  of samadhi, the other on insight.

                  with metta

                  Matheesha








                  --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Daniel,
                  >  
                  > Thank you very much for your comments and observations. They are
                  helpful.
                  >  
                  > 1/ You say: "You both seem to have made an assumption about the
                  nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi
                  training...".
                  >  
                  > It was not really just an assumption. Allan is going by his own
                  personal experience, and yours is the first confirmation I have been
                  able to obtain that a Mahasi yogi's magga-phala might
                  take different forms. See
                  http://www.palikanon.com/english/practice_insight/characteristics_of_f
                  orgetting.htm for example.
                  >  
                  > Your own experience, verified by your teachers, that of another
                  friend of yours, and the examples you give from the 'secret'
                  materials, suggests that Mahasi teachers are aware of these
                  variations in the experience as well. Having this kind of
                  information out in the open can only help dispell some of the
                  confusion that arises when people hear of experiences that
                  differ from their own, and then begin to question the validity of
                  those different experiences, and especially to question the validity
                  of other practices that give rise to differing experiences. You have
                  made a valuable contribution towards greater understanding and
                  openess among yogis of the various traditions.
                  >  
                  > 2/ I don't know why you think I am "overestimating the
                  transformational power of the sotapan experience". You have
                  said, "Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over
                  time." What I said was,  "I have also become convinced that in order
                  for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is
                  essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the
                  yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged
                  abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in
                  order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this
                  doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time,
                  memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the
                  person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a
                  path to eventual full Enlightenment." Don't you think we are both
                  saying the same thing?
                  >  
                  > You say, "The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's
                  tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The
                  mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and
                  instinctively inclines to that state."  This is a generalization
                  that will only be true if the mind is thoroughly trained in its
                  ability to create the conditions for phala, i.e what you refer to
                  as 'deep practice'. When the magga-phala experience
                  occurs 'spontaneously', or in someone following a path of practice
                  that is not as systematic as most Buddhist practices (and I would
                  include Christian, Jewish and Islamic mysticism and certain forms
                  of Advaita practices in this category), or in someone whose practice
                  of one of the Buddhist methods is not yet mature, then the mind may
                  never again find its way back to emergence and phala.
                  >  
                  > You say, "Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotapanas
                  and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final
                  nibbana." Please tell us more! This is completely new information for
                  me. I was not previously aware of there being seven different levels
                  of sotapana. Are there specific suttas, commentaries or other
                  teachings to this effect? Or is this something you have inferred as
                  being implied by the statement that as many as 7 lifetimes may be
                  required for complete liberation? Allan had asked at one point if
                  there might be such a thing as 'magga-phala light', and this would
                  suggest that such a thing is possible.
                  >  
                  > 3/ We are both speculating here, but I would agree with you that
                  one factor in different experiences is the yogi's
                  previous familiarity with jhanic absorption, whether it is
                  understood and identified as such, or whether it is what you refer to
                  as the "vipassana equivalents". (I would say jhana is jhana,
                  Equanimity Towards Formations is identical in every respect, both
                  subjectively and in terms of yours and anyone else's verbal
                  descriptions, to the fully developed Upacara Samadhi of Samatha
                  attainment, and so it is only to be expected that those who dwell in
                  that state for long periods are going to slip into jhanas.) Prior
                  experience with mundane absorptions will make the experience of
                  supramundane absorption much, much clearer.
                  >  
                  > But as I suggested in the Long Post of my discussion with Allan, I
                  believe another very important factor to be previous experience with
                  holding consciousness itself as a primary object of mindful
                  awareness. This consciousness of consciousness is a
                  consistently important feature of many Mahayana meditations. And it
                  is an inevitable aspect of sustained Samatha, except of course
                  when the yogi insists on rushing single-pointedly into absorption,
                  but even then it will occur with absorption at the level of the
                  Fourth Jhana.
                  >  
                  > Thank you again,
                  > Culadasa
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Daniel <drbf2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Daniel <drbf2@...>
                  > Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Discussion with Culadasa and Allan
                  > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:08 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Dear Allan and Culadasa,
                  >  
                  > Here are just a few point of observation I would like to add to
                  your posted conversation:
                  >  
                  > 1/ You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the
                  magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training that I do
                  not believe is correct. It does not always present as an unconscious
                  gap. Here are two examples that I gleaned directly from "secret"
                  Mahasi approved materials:
                  >  
                  > "Mind and matter dropped away like a stone." [Dropped away from
                  what? Presumably there is a subtle consciousness experiencing this
                  dropping away.]
                  >  
                  > "Suddenly, consciousness become submerged"[Note there is no report
                  of loss of consciousness. And what is this in which consciousness has
                  become submerged?]
                  >  
                  > Here is one I especially love from a mutual friend of Allan and
                  myself, roughly paraphrased:
                  >  
                  > "The object dissolved, followed by the dissolution of the
                  attention. Then the mind dissolved and consciousness became shrouded."
                  >  
                  > My own experience was very well illumined and clear, and I reported
                  it to three teachers, one of which was a highly reputed and teacher
                  trained monastic, and another one was a teacher trained layperson.
                  The third was a non-teacher trained lay person with many years of
                  experience. All gave their approval. So clearly there are other
                  acceptalbe models.
                  >  
                  > 2/ It seems to me Culadasa, that you might be overestimating the
                  transformational power of the sotapan experience. Its influence may
                  be quite subtle and may build slowly over time. The test for it, if
                  there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without
                  effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions
                  towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that
                  state. This tells us something important about the center of gravity
                  of that person's deep mindstream. After all, to even have such an
                  experience, how subtle does the mind have to be? You can't fake that.
                  As for the manifestations of defilement, they will have their turn 
                  to fade away by and by. Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels
                  of sotatpanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up
                  to final nibbana. It could simply be that those who are very
                  transformed by this first experience are among the "higher grades."
                  >  
                  > I tend to think that the redactors of the Pali cannon were obsessed
                  with purity and good behavior and that as this school of Buddhadhamma
                  progressed it became increasingly "puritanical" in the evolution of
                  the commentaries and continued to raise the bar on the enlightenment
                  until the qualifications for even stage one seem impossible.
                  >  
                  > 3/ Personally, I would account for the differences among these
                  experiences of supermundane voidness as due to the nature of
                  development, especially jhana with which one attains. Many yogis in
                  the Mahasi tradition, while dwelling in Knowledge of Equanimity
                  Towards Formations for long periods become deeply immersed in very
                  formless states. I would go so are as to say that over time they
                  experience all of the formless jhana in their "vipassana
                  equivalents" . I believe that entering into magga-phala from one of
                  these states where the mind is both deeply dissolved and absorbed
                  would lead to something very different than attaining with the mind
                  in a classic brilliant fourth rupajhana.
                  >  
                  > Best wishes,
                  >  
                  > Daniel
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@ .>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Greetings to you all!
                  > > Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been
                  having `off line' about topics that were discussed on line while I
                  was on retreat.
                  > > Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is
                  sensitive and subtle, and important to the `many', both Culadasa and
                  I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our
                  sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will  always be
                  errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always
                  have room for more discussion and other points of view.
                  > > I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction,
                  followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa's and
                  Matheesha's questions and statements. Then I have posted my request
                  for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to
                  me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of
                  the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for
                  Culadasa's and Matheesha's in order to assist the reader.
                  > > Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final
                  back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.
                  > > I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable
                  position. He is trying to help the `many' to realize magga-phala. He
                  is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions
                  and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa
                  has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common
                  for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the
                  reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression
                  from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader
                  will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa's attempts to bring
                  clarity to the subject and to assist `the many' towards more rapid
                  and deeper understanding of meditation.
                  > > Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the
                  consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices,
                  will be of benefit to the `many'.
                  > > metta, allan
                  > >  
                  > > Greetings all-
                  > > I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months
                  of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable
                  Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly
                  high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I
                  offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot
                  say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the
                  opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one's own experience and
                  study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say
                  that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for
                  discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning
                  that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other
                  perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than
                  one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his
                  explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a
                  responsibility to add a
                  > > little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I
                  feel it might be valuable.
                  > > True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open
                  communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the
                  fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this
                  can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can
                  sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or
                  guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that
                  attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading
                  these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will
                  benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.
                  > > I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly
                  traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my
                  opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative
                  opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of
                  the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics
                  and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years.
                  This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the
                  Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of
                  not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us
                  to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable,
                  and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both
                  statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist
                  culture.
                  > > Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and
                  Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and
                  samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in
                  Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of
                  people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog
                  occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka,
                  as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments
                  is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This
                  quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the
                  changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school
                  of practice from which my training originates.
                  > > That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader
                  to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have
                  studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that
                  may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of
                  course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my
                  intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured
                  that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual
                  projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose
                  to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of
                  my teachers.
                  > > Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with
                  sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case,
                  during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on
                  personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the
                  same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards
                  understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in
                  comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the
                  testimonials of other kalyanamitta.
                  > > One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi's teaching of the
                  Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount
                  of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into
                  this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my
                  mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and
                  kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind
                  experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with
                  relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries
                  confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will
                  lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further
                  supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with
                  practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern
                  again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe.
                  Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the
                  training if/when the continuity
                  > > of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and
                  balance.
                  > > Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the
                  original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once
                  held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented
                  the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his
                  lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost,
                  and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the
                  higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the
                  Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our
                  sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical
                  investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's
                  legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha
                  today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and
                  Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have
                  perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism
                  across a broad range of
                  > > manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to
                  rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that
                  this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is
                  not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the
                  Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.
                  > > Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the
                  same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to
                  have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge
                  compliment of trust and respect.
                  > > If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past,
                  it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my
                  name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the
                  collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is,
                  however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold
                  that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma
                  when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to
                  dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly
                  clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the
                  dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion
                  is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe' .
                  > > When we create new schools/practices and interpret older
                  traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable
                  misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our
                  understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete
                  Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then
                  for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path
                  is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete
                  teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the
                  appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another
                  and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.
                  > > We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that
                  each time I have deepened my practice in my more `traditional
                  training', which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application
                  of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding
                  was weak and incomplete.
                  > > When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold
                  Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn
                  more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways
                  that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive
                  changes occurred.
                  > > Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of
                  experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of
                  their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school
                  still holds the key to the success' of the past. We need to look to
                  the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge
                  our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New
                  schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this
                  intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few
                  practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular
                  school's understanding and teachings. These new schools have few
                  solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions
                  are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk
                  this particular way before.
                  > > I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to
                  me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new
                  schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation
                  progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be
                  an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously
                  discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.
                  > > Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience
                  that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the
                  real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the
                  practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-
                  existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?
                  > >  In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and
                  with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of
                  samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between
                  Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the
                  Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine
                  Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will
                  be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to
                  experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the
                  insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more
                  profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior
                  to insight development.
                  > > Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we
                  better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this
                  or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.
                  > > Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional
                  comments.
                  > > Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and
                  very important part in Mahasi's teachings, but it would be an
                  exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi's teachings. They are a
                  linking part of the Vishuddimagga' s analysis of the Path of
                  Purification.
                  > > Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than
                  a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has
                  a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility
                  of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.
                  > > Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter'
                  magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?
                  > > Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-
                  phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking,
                  speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be
                  certain that something profound has occurred.
                  > > C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with
                  reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in
                  the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable
                  depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the
                  blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the
                  conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that
                  is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the
                  transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.
                  > > Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above
                  statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always
                  be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle
                  differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which `door'
                  the yogi enters into magga-phala/ phala. Higher Paths have a
                  more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due
                  to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.
                  > > What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is
                  that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different
                  physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have
                  different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa
                  and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by
                  its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/
                  action, not the experience itself.
                  > > C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a
                  possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been
                  changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and
                  many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion
                  of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others,
                  vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and
                  aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of
                  Path attainment.
                  > > Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa
                  that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had
                  a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur
                  deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases
                  is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear
                  in the person's behavior.
                  > > Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon
                  > > 1)   how a magga-phala moment can be identified
                  > > 2)   how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)
                  > > Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a
                  magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala
                  can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train
                  his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of
                  time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala
                  becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced
                  practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one
                  takes a determination that it doesn't), and  the yogi's mind will
                  incline without active intention more and more towards its release.
                  The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the
                  periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long
                  stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise,
                  determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind
                  of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a
                  magga-phala event, but will report
                  > > funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While
                  for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening
                  event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an
                  Enlightenment event and have not.
                  > > Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-
                  phala quite thoroughly below.
                  > > C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently
                  take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share
                  with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship
                  between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part
                  what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are
                  the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according
                  to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such,
                  the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event.
                  But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-
                  phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices?
                  And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a
                  magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to
                  what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of
                  non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur
                  without any
                  > > formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound
                  suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it
                  can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not
                  everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the
                  moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order
                  for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is
                  essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi's
                  mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in
                  phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to
                  make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn't
                  happen, the `magga-phala' event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak
                  experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain
                  ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full
                  Enlightenment.
                  > > It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has
                  replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change
                  has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after
                  magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I
                  don't know, and so I can't speak to that, but experience and
                  observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala
                  experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through
                  repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true
                  Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric
                  behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala
                  will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are
                  present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path
                  Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion
                  are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply
                  his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to
                  > > their attenuation. This is where the `saturation of the mind'
                  with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional
                  Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are
                  repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and
                  again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial
                  experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the
                  psyche.
                  > > Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the
                  nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and
                  interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it.
                  S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived
                  phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader
                  and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom,
                  depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may
                  focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence,
                  suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana
                  Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-
                  4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search
                  of the `absolute' and the `ultimate' within the experience; to
                  reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense
                  of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon
                  reflections of the experience; and to
                  > > be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all
                  conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the
                  bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as
                  opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.
                  > > If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences
                  occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala,
                  then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in
                  achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in
                  this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the
                  possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience
                  magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to
                  result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose
                  meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating
                  the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity
                  to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.  
                  > > So, having done with that digression, let's now see what sorts of
                  comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala `event' might
                  be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been
                  often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and
                  archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages,
                  those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance,
                  and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic
                  metaphor that they can't possibly say the same thing to any two
                  individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a
                  particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become
                  almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that
                  there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will
                  have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they
                  think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a
                  teacher from whom they can
                  > > seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination
                  of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan
                  writes: This last statement is all too true.)  And anyone in the
                  role of teacher who has a student who may have had a `real' or
                  `valid' magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to
                  advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either
                  case, whether it is our own or someone else's experience, the
                  situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a
                  description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be
                  a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views
                  and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we
                  need to keep that in mind.
                  > > To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the
                  description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the
                  closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more
                  likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection
                  by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-
                  emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that
                  the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is `just like
                  what I have read and heard about", it probably is not. Far more
                  likely it is that one will say "Despite what I have read and heard,
                  it's not at all what I was expecting". A sense of awe and surprise,
                  even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment
                  at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.
                  > > But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and
                  fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won't go into here, that
                  there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has
                  become so well established in their intuitive understanding of
                  themselves and the world that magga-phala is a `non-event' for them.
                  It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long
                  that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what
                  they find.
                  > > And then, also, there are those instances where an event that
                  seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that
                  strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and
                  uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but
                  completely unable to say quite what it was.
                  > > Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to
                  determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna
                  or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar
                  signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification
                  Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the
                  yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be
                  only available to one who has had what this school believes to have
                  been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has
                  realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on
                  subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain
                  markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.
                  > > C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly
                  enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest
                  looking for the following points in that description:
                  > > 1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a
                  cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.
                  > > Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say
                  instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a
                  cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists
                  while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register
                  at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot
                  be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as
                  cessation or a gap.
                  > > 2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness,
                  except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was
                  there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be
                  described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness  (Allan
                  writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people.
                  Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and
                  subsequent phala events are phala events.),  of nibbana and/or
                  anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or
                  disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all
                  knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality,
                  Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.
                  > > 3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was
                  attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it
                  was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present
                  reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of
                  obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of
                  ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of
                  Truth through the stopping of the mind.
                  > > Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones.
                  My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn
                  to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness,
                  Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of
                  this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce
                  remarkable changes in our everyday lives.
                  > > 4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential
                  quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.
                  > > Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the
                  happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this
                  event!
                  > > 5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is
                  looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real,
                  nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just
                  been known.
                  > > Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different
                  psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?
                  > > C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best
                  criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated
                  opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused
                  conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time
                  passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious
                  experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is
                  completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology
                  > > Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the
                  concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance.
                  Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of
                  multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.
                  > > Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like
                  a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
                  > > C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the
                  commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been
                  clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a
                  clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and
                  convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience,
                  followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all
                  sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately
                  prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound
                  attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual
                  awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like
                  equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to
                  anything that arises in conscious awareness.
                  > > Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say
                  above.
                  > > C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a
                  Sotapanna, the yogi's mind and brain undergo a particular change in
                  regard to the mechanism of self-identification . There is a mechanism
                  in the human mind that performs the function of `selfing', of
                  identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the
                  self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries,
                  and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the
                  initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some
                  combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of
                  mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-
                  identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these
                  attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual
                  and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self
                  construct, the mechanism of `selfing' would not have ceased to
                  function. The nature of the magga-phala
                  > > event is such that:
                  > > The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness
                  that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind's `selfing'
                  mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the
                  body/mind/personali ty as self.
                  > > This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon
                  resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes
                  consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards
                  upon reflection.
                  > > The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality
                  construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and
                  identification by the `selfing' mechanism. Thus at any later time,
                  especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and
                  becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary
                  suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-
                  identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as
                  soon as it is recognized.
                  > > Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality
                  view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the
                  experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the
                  `selfing' mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively
                  perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as
                  the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as "I
                  am THAT" or "I AM that I AM". This can either be held at bay through
                  the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will
                  expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent
                  absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense
                  of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as
                  such a self persists until Arahatship.
                  > > Allan writes: Extremely well said.
                  > > C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth
                  a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is
                  a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of
                  suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings,
                  and this, combined with having had a direct experience of
                  undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a
                  powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings
                  of love that naturally follow from one's experience of bliss, because
                  loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views
                  others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their
                  actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same
                  oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore
                  seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.
                  > > Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and
                  never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much
                  depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved,
                  and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or
                  herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and
                  so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong,
                  and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But
                  what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna's
                  sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness
                  and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any
                  thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to
                  others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on
                  mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of
                  sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a
                  natural and intuitive mode of
                  > > behaving, rather than following a set of rules.
                  > > Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will
                  add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the
                  attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of
                  behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-
                  harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular
                  feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression
                  towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.
                  > > C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and
                  aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought,
                  speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the
                  Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that
                  are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and
                  on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever
                  such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path
                  Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this
                  Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness.
                  As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the
                  affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the
                  Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just
                  how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through
                  his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination
                  that s/he begins the process of
                  > > uprooting them.
                  > > Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not
                  Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the
                  criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten
                  re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings
                  as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if
                  given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a
                  neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?'
                  His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we
                  train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who
                  believe that 'dry vipassana' is sufficient to lead a yogi to
                  Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not
                  lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom
                  producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both
                  samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your
                  pick, but whichever you choose, bring the
                  > > Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.
                  > > When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have
                  gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The
                  conditioning that comes along with any training will make it
                  difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address
                  without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.
                  > > Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there
                  are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation
                  training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other
                  than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even
                  then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where
                  the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant
                  with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less
                  attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and
                  unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our
                  practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and
                  everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and
                  happier we all will be.
                  > > Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa
                  soliciting his input re the above email.
                  > > From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@ ...]
                  > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM
                  > > To: Culadasa
                  > > Subject: help!
                  > > Hi Culadasa-
                  > > Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year,
                  extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my
                  plannings...
                  > > Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering
                  response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided.
                  One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to
                  retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.
                  > > There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant
                  and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments
                  have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your
                  mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in
                  times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who
                  will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a
                  hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time
                  and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND
                  because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good
                  idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not
                  to post it.
                  > > I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm
                  concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what
                  you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as
                  arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your
                  understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in
                  my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I
                  am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the
                  possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real
                  potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.
                  > > I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your
                  feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and
                  effort due to my paucity of ability and the many `disagreements' I
                  have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.
                  > > Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to
                  your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.
                  > >  Much metta, allan
                  > >  
                  > > Hello Allan,
                  > > My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a
                  differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort
                  to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue
                  that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the
                  discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant
                  and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.
                  > > After reading through and pondering upon the various points you
                  have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are "describing
                  different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative
                  results", and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?
                  > > In one of my earlier posts I suggested that through careful
                  examination "we will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi
                  yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do…",
                  to which you replied:
                  > > "This statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a
                  question. I read that there is the belief that one school has
                  a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility
                  of a marginal understanding. "
                  > > This question I presented as an example actually came from a
                  discussion that took place several years ago, referred to at
                  http://sasanarakkha .org/unfold/ archive/2002_ 11_01_unfold. html,
                  and which I will quote in full here:
                  > > "Ven. Ariyadhamma Mahathera and Dhammaramsi Thera from Sri Lanka
                  pay us a visit. The Mahathera is a well-known meditation teacher and
                  dhamma speaker in Sri Lanka. Ven. Aggacitta takes the opportunity to
                  discuss and compare the Mahasi and Pa Auk methods of meditation. He
                  seeks the Mahathera's opinion on the view held by some that Mahasi
                  yogis do not experience real insights as what Pa Auk yogis do. The
                  Mahathera disagrees with the view, saying that it is just their
                  concept. He explains that the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis
                  are clearer and more profound because of the high degree of
                  concentration attained prior to insight development. However, both
                  methods can lead a yogi to enlightenment, he says. The Mahathera has
                  been using the Mahasi method of meditation since 1957 when Mahasi
                  Sayadaw and his assistants went to Sri Lanka to propagate pure-
                  vipassana meditation. Now he prefers the Pa Auk way after his first
                  experience at Pa Auk Forest Monastery
                  > > in 1997-1998."
                  > > I confess that I chose this particular question because I so
                  often seem to hear Mahasi-tradition yogis, either subtly or not so
                  subtly, casting doubt upon the validity of insights and realizations
                  attained through other methods, especially methods that emphasize the
                  cultivation of deep concentration. (I am definitely not referring to
                  you or anyone else on this board here!) So I thought it might be
                  helpful to remind ourselves that this can cut both ways. The
                  conclusion, the important one implied in the question itself, is
                  simply that there are indeed differences. The important question, the
                  same one we are asking ourselves here, is whether these are
                  fundamental differences in the attainments themselves, or perhaps
                  significant but still comparatively superficial differences related
                  to the details of the practice, such as the degree of concentration
                  development. Ariyadhamma Mahathera's answer is clearly that there is
                  in fact no fundamental difference (or
                  > > 'marginal' quality!) to the understanding of either school and
                  that both lead to enlightenment. This is an open minded point of
                  view, and is important in that it comes from someone who has
                  practiced and taught both of these methods.
                  > > By the way, your statement:
                  > > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the Path of Purification
                  and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is
                  reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training"
                  > > seems to attempt to usurp both the Vissudhimagga and indeed all
                  of the Theravada to the Mahasi way, leaving Pa Auk and many other
                  Theravadin paths, both Suttic and Vissudhimagga- based, out in the
                  cold. I would rather you said something like:
                  > > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the particular modern
                  interpretation of the Path of Purification developed, expounded and
                  disseminated by Mahasi Sayadaw and his students as one of several
                  different expressions of the Theravada way..."
                  > > Allan writes: You are correct, the words I used implied
                  unintentionally a usurping of said practices into Mahasi. I always
                  try to make this distinction and not fall prey to an unconscious
                  chauvinism, but missed it here. I have made the correction in my
                  note. Thank you. 
                  > > C: I would like to continue our discussion by summarizing the
                  main points of difference that you have brought forth, as I see them:
                  > >  1. Magga-phala and phala described as a fully conscious event
                  > >  versus
                  > > Magga-phala and phala described as a gap, lapse, or in some sense
                  a cessation of consciousness.
                  > > This is more than just interesting. I see it as potentially the
                  most significant issue under examination.
                  > >  2. Magga-phala and phala understood not as a state (of mind)
                  that is attained, but as the discovery of an ever-present reality
                  revealed through "the stopping of the mind"
                  > >  versus
                  > >  Magga-phala and phala as a novel `event' that the "mind is
                  drawn towards" (which is therefore not pre-existing, much less ever-
                  present) , and as a "state of mind" that must be revisited as an
                  ontologically de novo reality on subsequent occasions.
                  > > This may be either a profound difference in philosophical
                  interpretation with huge implications for the question of whether or
                  not we are indeed talking about the same thing, or it may be nothing
                  more than a problem of semantics that is easily resolved through our
                  being consistent with each other in how we use terms like `reality',
                  `event', `mind', and `mental state'.
                  > > 3. Magga-phala as an experience which can be quite variable
                  depending upon both the individual and the practice
                  > >  versus
                  > >  Magga-phala as always the same except for very subtle
                  differences.
                  > > For clarification, I emphasize the word experience. As you said
                  elsewhere, magga-phala is magga-phala and phala is phala, and by
                  their characteristic of penetrating to an ultimate true nature, they
                  must be always and everywhere the same. This can be taken as given
                  and quite beyond dispute. But the experience of magga-phala is
                  something else again. The experience of magga-phala is subjective,
                  mind-dependent, and also `recollected' (or not!) after the event when
                  pondering and verbal description occur. And this subjective, mind-
                  dependent, recollected experience is what I suggest to be highly
                  variable, dependent upon the individual, their path of practice, and,
                  of course, their preconceptions and prior conditioning. Of course, if
                  you are suggesting that the experience is always the same regardless
                  of how it is achieved, then only one or the other of magga-phala as a
                  fully conscious event or as a gap in consciousness can be describing
                  the `real'
                  > > magga-phala. If, on the other hand, you mean to say that the
                  experience is always the same when achieved within the context of
                  Mahasi-tradition practices, then that leaves open the possibility
                  that both descriptions represent genuine magga-phala as achieved
                  through different paths of practice. I gladly withdraw my previous
                  assertion that "it [is] in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other
                  way a cessation of consciousness" , with profound apologies, and
                  include the experience of just such a gap within the possible range
                  of magga-phala experiences.
                  > > Allan writes: I am truly grateful to the subtlety of your mind.
                  In the above paragraph you make clear what I was unable to do in my
                  note and comments. I can speak only to Mahasi path `experiences' ,
                  and have no authority to assess other paths except, as discussed in
                  the post. Due to this narrow point of view I am obliged to simply be
                  an observer of what I perceive to be the relative results of another
                  school or another person's perceived Enlightenment experience.
                  > > 4. "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and
                  completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as
                  a description of magga-phala
                  > >  versus
                  > > "Conscious experience with no object, no self as observer, and
                  completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology" as
                  a description of a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
                  > > To my knowledge and in my experience, there is no such thing as a
                  (mundane) jhana in which there is no object and no self as observer
                  (although it can sometimes seem to be the case, at least until
                  repeated experience with the jhana reveals that the familiar subject-
                  object duality is in fact still present). The exception to this would
                  be the so-called 9th jhana of cessation, or nirodha samapati, which
                  is none other than the jhana of remainderless nibbana. I don't think
                  that is what you mean, but if it is then I agree with you completely,
                  and I will also point out that the cessation referred to in the
                  description of the 9th jhana is a cessation of feeling and
                  perception, not of consciousness. I don't know if it is the case
                  within the Mahasi tradition, but magga-phala and phala samapati are
                  commonly described as jhanic and are often referred to as the
                  `supramundane' jhanas.
                  > >  
                  > > I wish to return now to the first issue, magga-phala and phala as
                  a fully conscious event versus a gap or cessation of consciousness.
                  > > As a result of childhood encephalitis, for several of my
                  adolescent years I was subject to a type of petit mal epileptic
                  seizure, known as `absences'. For a period of anywhere between 10
                  seconds and a minute or so there would be a complete lapse in
                  consciousness. Apparently I would sometimes stop talking in the
                  middle of a sentence and resume as though there had been no
                  interruption 30 seconds later. I was completely unaware of these
                  lapses until I learned to recognize them through other people's
                  reactions or because something had abruptly changed in an unexpected
                  way. At some point I realized that my eyes always turned up
                  involuntarily just before one of these seizures, so I knew if I felt
                  my eyes roll up in my head that I was having one. But otherwise,
                  without these cues, I would never know a lapse in consciousness had
                  occurred. I am curious to know more about the gaps you speak of.
                  Obviously you know when a phala event has occurred, so it is
                  > > different from petit mal absences in that regard, but how do you
                  become aware of the `gap'?
                  > > Allan writes: A meditator when first becoming familiar with
                  `gaps' will become aware of them by various means of deduction. The
                  mind will have a different outlook afterwards, depending on the
                  length of the gap the meditator will notice an absence of time, there
                  will often be very telling physical symptoms on return, etc. As the
                  meditator becomes familiar with the experience due to exposure, or
                  training in determinations, the `gaps' will be seen to be coming, and
                  the mind will clearly follow the progression back into
                  `consciousness' .
                  > > C: I realize that to speak of consciousness in the<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                • Daniel
                  Hi Matheesha, Yes, that emerging upward that you speak of is one of the classic ones and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up the top
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2009
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                    Hi Matheesha,

                    Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the classic ones and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up the top branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the "cone" is new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of this word?

                    I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and passing away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from oppression of occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The Vis. M. tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the factors of enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that moment. I find it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some kind of unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this could be and his response to me was that the  yogis were not accustomed to the experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting nibbana.

                    You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go."

                    This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially evident as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let go" reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which becomes a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.

                    You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince."

                    I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it is very important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me to acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness, but when you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all not only the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity of the mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of Arising and Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that KAPA is very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct balance of the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are that in SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA the quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are not as subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and teahers to mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context. Although my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in KAPA.

                    You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is aware only of itself."

                    Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This process can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in acendance or with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is in ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor in the Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into itself. This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not wish to touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that makes them appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But when concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might occur as a very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in itself. The diference between these and magga-phala is that the consciousness has not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to contemplate itself as a dhamma.

                    With metta,

                    Daniel


                    --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                    >
                    > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of
                    > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                    >
                    > I would like to make two points/observations:
                    >
                    > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
                    > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by seeing
                    > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by being
                    > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self, or
                    > foulness).
                    >
                    > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
                    > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
                    > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
                    > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
                    > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be repeated a
                    > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows in
                    > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days. There
                    > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience or
                    > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the satipatthana
                    > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                    >
                    > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
                    > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of nothingness,
                    > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also theoretically
                    > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which arises
                    > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden' (of
                    > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is essential
                    > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just to
                    > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a person
                    > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back, especially
                    > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is a
                    > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                    >
                    > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar religious
                    > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important aspect
                    > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this buddhist
                    > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with God
                    > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
                    > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                    >
                    > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate that
                    > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone was
                    > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                    > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                    >
                    > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is projected
                    > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by fetters
                    > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
                    > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength of a
                    > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the faculties
                    > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                    >
                    > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
                    > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is aware
                    > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs after a
                    > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
                    > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because clearly
                    > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the conceptual
                    > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                    >
                    > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can be
                    > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                    > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the mind can
                    > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I have
                    > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala, when
                    > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                    >
                    > I hope that illuminates..
                    >
                    > with metta
                    >
                    > M
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If I were called upon to decide w
                    >

                  • BLAKE B
                    Hello All, I thought some of you might be interested in the following event. If you are interested in registering, you can contact me via email, off list.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 6, 2009
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                      Hello All,

                      I thought some of you might be interested in the following event.

                      If you are interested in registering, you can contact me via email, off list.

                      Thanks,
                      Blake

                      10 Day Residential Meditation Retreat

                      with Upasaka Culadasa

                       

                      at Cochise Stronghold Retreat Center

                      March 27 - April 5th, 2009

                      Retreat will be held in noble silence and will consist of instruction, sitting and walking meditation, taking of precepts and dharma discussion.  Private meditation interviews.   Personal care, exercise and all other activities will also be done as a meditation

                       

                      Dates:     Friday, March 27 to Sunday, April 5th,   2 weekends, plus mid-week

                      Start Fri. evening at 7pm thru 4 pm Sunday.

                      Earlier arrival is recommended to allow you to comfortably settle in.

                       

                      Location:     In the beautiful, secluded Cochise Stronghold in the Dragoon Mtns

                      80 miles SE of Tucson.   Directions provided upon registration.

                      Car-pooling is supported.

                       

                       

                      Fee:     $350 to $540, depending on your choice of accommodations*.   This covers meals and accommodations. Dana for the teacher will be gratefully accepted.


                    • Michael Chu
                      Hello All,   Culadasa is also leading a retreat in Southern California at Perris.    Meditation Retreat with Upasaka Culadasa
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 6, 2009
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                        Hello All,
                         
                        Culadasa is also leading a retreat in Southern California at Perris. 
                         

                        Meditation Retreat with Upasaka Culadasa

                                                           4/24/2009 – 5/3/2009
                         
                        If you are interested, please contact me off list.  This is also a silent retreat.
                         
                        Thank you,
                        Michael Chu


                        --- On Fri, 3/6/09, BLAKE B <blake.b@...> wrote:
                        From: BLAKE B <blake.b@...>
                        Subject: [jhana_insight] Residential Retreat with Upasaka Culadasa
                        To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 5:35 PM

                        Hello All,

                        I thought some of you might be interested in the following event.

                        If you are interested in registering, you can contact me via email, off list.

                        Thanks,
                        Blake

                        10 Day Residential Meditation Retreat

                        with Upasaka Culadasa

                         

                        at Cochise Stronghold Retreat Center

                        March 27 - April 5th, 2009

                        Retreat will be held in noble silence and will consist of instruction, sitting and walking meditation, taking of precepts and dharma discussion.  Private meditation interviews.   Personal care, exercise and all other activities will also be done as a meditation

                         

                        Dates:     Friday, March 27 to Sunday, April 5th,   2 weekends, plus mid-week

                        Start Fri. evening at 7pm thru 4 pm Sunday.

                        Earlier arrival is recommended to allow you to comfortably settle in.

                         

                        Location:     In the beautiful, secluded Cochise Stronghold in the Dragoon Mtns

                        80 miles SE of Tucson.   Directions provided upon registration.

                        Car-pooling is supported.

                         

                         

                        Fee:     $350 to $540, depending on your choice of accommodations* .   This covers meals and accommodations. Dana for the teacher will be gratefully accepted.


                      • Daniel
                        Hello Culadasa, Thank you for taking the time for such a thoughtful reply! I have inserted some of my own reflections in blue. I will not be doing much posting
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 7, 2009
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                          Hello Culadasa,

                          Thank you for taking the time for such a thoughtful reply! I have inserted some of my own reflections in blue. I will not be doing much posting for awhile, as I need to work on my own writing, and I am beginning to shy from such subtle discussion, as I mentioned to William because of the almost impossible subtlety and overabundant occasions for misunderstanding that can be generated and so much more so online. So I will let you have the last round, and if I sound overly confident in my statements, please chalk it up to unvarnished arrogance unmitigated by tasteful editing :)

                          Affectionately,

                          Daniel


                          --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Daniel,
                          >  
                          > Thank you very much for your comments and observations. They are helpful.
                          >  
                          > 1/ You say: "You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training...".
                          >  
                          > It was not really just an assumption. Allan is going by his own personal experience, and yours is the first confirmation I have been able to obtain that a Mahasi yogi's magga-phala might take different forms. See http://www.palikanon.com/english/practice_insight/characteristics_of_forgetting.htm for example.
                          >  
                          > Your own experience, verified by your teachers, that of another friend of yours, and the examples you give from the 'secret' materials, suggests that Mahasi teachers are aware of these variations in the experience as well. Having this kind of information out in the open can only help dispell some of the confusion that arises when people hear of experiences that differ from their own, and then begin to question the validity of those different experiences, and especially to question the validity of other practices that give rise to differing experiences. You have made a valuable contribution towards greater understanding and openess among yogis of the various traditions.

                          I only wish to clarify that even though the magga-phala experience may be recollected by some as consciousness in a deeply void condition, it is indeed deeply void, and quite different form other states where there is mind present with no object.
                          >  
                          > 2/ I don't know why you think I am "overestimating the transformational power of the sotapan experience". You have said, "Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over time." What I said was,  "I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment." Don't you think we are both saying the same thing?

                          I disagree with this, even a momentary experience of magga-phala can affect the person deeply and permanently. What I meant by overestimation was the placing of high expectations around the transformation of the moral character in particular. This comes with some time. There can be a period of adapting or reorientation to a new sense of self after the experience that can take several years.
                          >  
                          > You say, "The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that state."  This is a generalization that will only be true if the mind is thoroughly trained in its ability to create the conditions for phala, i.e what you refer to as 'deep practice'. When the magga-phala experience occurs 'spontaneously', or in someone following a path of practice that is not as systematic as most Buddhist practices (and I would include Christian, Jewish and Islamic mysticism and certain forms of Advaita practices in this category), or in someone whose practice of one of the Buddhist methods is not yet mature, then the mind may never again find its way back to emergence and phala.

                          I am not sure I would agree to call such an experience a magga-phala event, because part of what is essential to its power is the development upon which it is based. Although I can imagine a magga-phala moment with some alternative training that leads step by step to the dissolution of the mind and absorption into emptiness, obviously this would leave the yogi with the necessary training and development to retrace his path or repeat the experience (as in the Advaita experience). For these reasons a lack of maturity would preclude a magga-phala experience.
                          >  
                          > You say, "Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotapanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final nibbana." Please tell us more! This is completely new information for me. I was not previously aware of there being seven different levels of sotapana. Are there specific suttas, commentaries or other teachings to this effect? Or is this something you have inferred as being implied by the statement that as many as 7 lifetimes may be required for complete liberation? Allan had asked at one point if there might be such a thing as 'magga-phala light', and this would suggest that such a thing is possible.

                          I apologise for my error. There are only 3 grades of sotapati according to the scriptures (I don't remember where this is found):

                           

                          Sattakhattu-parama: with 7 years (at most) of wandering among human and heavenly beings.

                          Kolankola: two or three births at most.

                          Ekabiji: one more birth in the human world.
                          >  
                          > 3/ We are both speculating here, but I would agree with you that one factor in different experiences is the yogi's previous familiarity with jhanic absorption, whether it is understood and identified as such, or whether it is what you refer to as the "vipassana equivalents". (I would say jhana is jhana, Equanimity Towards Formations is identical in every respect, both subjectively and in terms of yours and anyone else's verbal descriptions, to the fully developed Upacara Samadhi of Samatha attainment, and so it is only to be expected that those who dwell in that state for long periods are going to slip into jhanas.) Prior experience with mundane absorptions will make the experience of supramundane absorption much, much clearer.

                          I do not believe that sankhar upekkha ñana and fully developed upacara samadhi are identical. Despite the considerable overlap, there are some important differences in my experience.

                          Sankhar-upekkha-ñana

                          Upacara

                          Prior to Magga-phala of first path, the speed of the mind is indescribably fast; there is tremendous power and energy, like a hurricane.

                          The mind is very fast, light and malleable but not like this, concentration predominates.

                          It has fully mature insight and supported by equanimity born of insight and the purity born of the removal by opposition of the vipallasas.

                          Insight only pertains to samatha development and only limited opposition to the vipallasas.

                          It is profoundly empty, without controller

                          The sense of the meditator, although subtle is present.

                          These qualities take over the mind, such that one is no longer in control: the seven factor, jhanas and sometimes even psychic powers manifest spontaneously, according to an order of development of some deeper intelligence.

                          I have not experienced this in upacara other than the arising of jhana.

                          If we place mature knowledge of arising and passing away as reasonably parallel to an immature upacara samadhi, the yogi practicing bare insight will still have to go through the entire sequence of dukkha-nupassana, Knowledge of desire for deliverance, and patisankha ñana before returning to equanimity. This is a very long alternate rout, with a much greater "distance" of development than what exists between immature and mature upacara samadhi.  Considerable strength of character, determination and energy are needed to get through those stages and the development reflects this. This additional development gives some qualities that have to do with great energy and strength of will and deep insight. I would agree however that with special training in samatha development that some of these qualities could be added to basic upacara samadhi, especially if one is doing insight work along with the development of upacara.


                          >  
                          > But as I suggested in the Long Post of my discussion with Allan, I believe another very important factor to be previous experience with holding consciousness itself as a primary object of mindful awareness. This consciousness of consciousness is a consistently important feature of many Mahayana meditations. And it is an inevitable aspect of sustained Samatha, except of course when the yogi insists on rushing single-pointedly into absorption, but even then it will occur with absorption at the level of the Fourth Jhana.
                          >  
                          > Thank you again,
                          > Culadasa
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Daniel drbf2@... wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Daniel drbf2@...
                          > Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Discussion with Culadasa and Allan
                          > To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:08 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > Dear Allan and Culadasa,
                          >  
                          > Here are just a few point of observation I would like to add to your posted conversation:
                          >  
                          > 1/ You both seem to have made an assumption about the nature of the magga-phala experience as it is found in Mahasi training that I do not believe is correct. It does not always present as an unconscious gap. Here are two examples that I gleaned directly from "secret" Mahasi approved materials:
                          >  
                          > "Mind and matter dropped away like a stone." [Dropped away from what? Presumably there is a subtle consciousness experiencing this dropping away.]
                          >  
                          > "Suddenly, consciousness become submerged"[Note there is no report of loss of consciousness. And what is this in which consciousness has become submerged?]
                          >  
                          > Here is one I especially love from a mutual friend of Allan and myself, roughly paraphrased:
                          >  
                          > "The object dissolved, followed by the dissolution of the attention. Then the mind dissolved and consciousness became shrouded."
                          >  
                          > My own experience was very well illumined and clear, and I reported it to three teachers, one of which was a highly reputed and teacher trained monastic, and another one was a teacher trained layperson. The third was a non-teacher trained lay person with many years of experience. All gave their approval. So clearly there are other acceptalbe models.
                          >  
                          > 2/ It seems to me Culadasa, that you might be overestimating the transformational power of the sotapan experience. Its influence may be quite subtle and may build slowly over time. The test for it, if there is one, is simply the mind's tendency to return to it without effort when doing deep practice. The mind knows the directions towards release from suffering and instinctively inclines to that state. This tells us something important about the center of gravity of that person's deep mindstream. After all, to even have such an experience, how subtle does the mind have to be? You can't fake that. As for the manifestations of defilement, they will have their turn  to fade away by and by. Remember that the Buddha taught seven levels of sotatpanas and the first one will require 7 lifetimes to float up to final nibbana. It could simply be that those who are very transformed by this first experience are among the "higher grades."
                          >  
                          > I tend to think that the redactors of the Pali cannon were obsessed with purity and good behavior and that as this school of Buddhadhamma progressed it became increasingly "puritanical" in the evolution of the commentaries and continued to raise the bar on the enlightenment until the qualifications for even stage one seem impossible.
                          >  
                          > 3/ Personally, I would account for the differences among these experiences of supermundane voidness as due to the nature of development, especially jhana with which one attains. Many yogis in the Mahasi tradition, while dwelling in Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations for long periods become deeply immersed in very formless states. I would go so are as to say that over time they experience all of the formless jhana in their "vipassana equivalents" . I believe that entering into magga-phala from one of these states where the mind is both deeply dissolved and absorbed would lead to something very different than attaining with the mind in a classic brilliant fourth rupajhana.
                          >  
                          > Best wishes,
                          >  
                          > Daniel
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Allan Cooper nama1rupa@ .> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Greetings to you all!
                          > > Below is a very long discussion that Culadasa and I have been having `off line' about topics that were discussed on line while I was on retreat.
                          > > Because the material in this post discusses magga-phala, which is sensitive and subtle, and important to the `many', both Culadasa and I have tried to be as clear and precise as possible. Despite our sincere attempts to be clear and accurate there will  always be errors in the writing and/or omissions, and will therefore always have room for more discussion and other points of view.
                          > > I have organized this post by beginning with this introduction, followed by the body of my interspersed responses to Culadasa's and Matheesha's questions and statements. Then I have posted my request for help from Culadasa followed by his response. In his response to me, I continue to intersperse comments as I did in the body of the of the note. I use bold print for my voice, and regular print for Culadasa's and Matheesha's in order to assist the reader.
                          > > Since the writing of this introduction Culadasa and I had a final back and forth, which will be seen in yellow highlight and red print.
                          > > I believe that Culadasa has taken a difficult and laudable position. He is trying to help the `many' to realize magga-phala. He is using his Wisdom and incredibly sharp mind to fashion questions and new paradigms of practice. When someone comes forth, as Culadasa has, with new and challenging points of view, it is easy and common for the lazy mind to simply be a naysayer. I hope that never in the reading of this correspondence does the reader get that impression from my comments. Instead, I wish and fervently hope that the reader will empathize with my appreciation for Culadasa's attempts to bring clarity to the subject and to assist `the many' towards more rapid and deeper understanding of meditation.
                          > > Thank you, and I sincerely wish that the reading and the consideration that we all give to this piece, and to our practices, will be of benefit to the `many'.
                          > > metta, allan
                          > >  
                          > > Greetings all-
                          > > I am delighted to have returned to everyday life after 3 months of practice in Lumbini to find my mailbox filled with many remarkable Dhamma discussions. Jhana_Insight is blessed to have an incredibly high standard of discussion. I hope that the varying perspectives I offer in this post will be of use to someone. To begin with, I cannot say that he or the others on this board aren't correct in many of the opinions posited here. One can only 'know' one's own experience and study, and therefore be conditioned by those experiences. I can say that from the perspective of my studies, I believe there is room for discussion and a lot of disagreement without the disagreement meaning that there is no accuracy, respect or support for the other perspective. It is highly likely that there are more ways than one 'to skin the Dhamma'. From where I sit, I support Culadasa in his explorations and experiments, and like the court jester, feel a responsibility to add a
                          > > little counterpoint or a differing perspective when on occasion I feel it might be valuable.
                          > > True to Culadasa's points about the need for more open communication regards to our sharing our meditative paths and the fruits of those paths, I too agree that under many circumstances this can be of extraordinary value, and must add as well, that it can sometimes be of great harm. I am not the judge or the jury to know or guess which could be which if one were to openly discuss this or that attainment on a board like this. Without knowing who may be reading these notes we can be fairly certain that there will be some who will benefit, and others who may silently get overwhelmed and or confused.
                          > > I am trained in the Mahasi tradition, and my teacher is fairly traditional in maintaining the closed lip policies that, in my opinion, probably contributed to the drying up of meditative opportunities over the centuries. This closed lip interpretation of the Vinaya has dramatically affected communication between monastics and lay people as well as between monastics for hundreds of years. This silence may have had a significant impact on the vitality of the Buddha's sasana. The misinterpretation of the Buddha's Vinaya rule of not 'bragging or misstating ones realization' is what probably led us to the assumption, only 30 years ago, that jhana was unattainable, and that there are no Arahants in this age. 30 years ago both statements were unshakable truths in the Western Theravada Buddhist culture.
                          > > Nowadays due to the influence of monastics like Ajhan Cha and Mahasi Sayadaw, we have more people practicing both vipassana and samatha, with many making significant meditative progress in Theravada forms of meditation. As a result, with the increase of people practicing deep Insight and concentration there is more dialog occurring re people's experiences and practices. Also, in Sri Lanka, as in the West, the culture of disclosing openly personal attainments is generally much more open and free than in Burma or Thailand. This quality of openness seen in Sri Lanka and the West may accelerate the changes that eventually, hopefully, will find its way to the school of practice from which my training originates.
                          > > That said, in this post, and in the future, I invite the reader to interpret allusions such as 'what I have learned', or 'what I have studied', or 'what I know from good authority', as statements that may be more personal then these types of phrases may imply. It is, of course, up to you how you interpret what I say, and despite my intention to avoid speaking in the first person, you may be assured that I often say what I do from something greater than intellectual projections. These verbal gymnastics are almost silly, but I choose to do this out of loyalty and respect to the traditions and wishes of my teachers.
                          > > Having discussions about Enlightenment is always fraught with sinkholes. Enlightenment defies conceptual definition. In my case, during the discussions about Enlightenment I will have to rely on personal study and the testimonials of people who have walked the same Path as I have. I truly cannot address much towards understanding of other Paths and other Enlightenments, except in comparison to what I've learned either from study and/or the testimonials of other kalyanamitta.
                          > > One of the most inspiring aspects about Mahasi's teaching of the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training. This is flat out the case, absolutely no doubt in my mind. I have had the good fortune to have a number of friends and kalyanamitta who report chillingly similar progressions and mind experiences as I have had. My friends testimonials, coupled with relatively recent writings, along with the ancient commentaries confirms sufficiently for me that there is a tested Path that will lead a yogi towards non-relative Wisdom. This perspective is further supported by having had the good fortune to sit in on interviews with practicing yogis on formal retreat. There too, seeing this pattern again and again, is a remarkable and heartening thing to observe. Almost everyone reports the same markers in similar ways re the training if/when the continuity
                          > > of concentration, effort and mindfulness gain momentum and balance.
                          > > Culadasa writes: There is no doubt in my mind that most of the original power of the Buddha Dharma has been lost. The Buddha once held a convocation of 1220 Arahats, and that by no means represented the extent of those who attained to the highest Path during his lifetime. Fortunately, the Buddha Dharma has not been entirely lost, and there are still enough beings around who have attained to the higher realizations that it is still possible for us to restore the Dharma to its full power. But not until we are able to shed our sectarian blinders and apply the very same faculties of empirical investigation that the Buddha first employed. Because of the Buddha's legacy of teaching, and because there does exist an Aryan Sangha today, and because of the cross pollination with Christianity and Vedanta and between various Buddhist traditions, and because we have perfected the scientific method that allows us to apply empiricism across a broad range of
                          > > manifestations of similar phenomena, we have the potential to rediscover the original power of the Dharma. I am not suggesting that this is a task for the novice meditator, and it most certainly is not. But it is a task that is suited to the Bhikkhu Bodhis and the Allans, if only they can be persuaded to join in the investigation.
                          > > Allan writes: I feel somewhat embarrassed to be grouped in the same sentence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, even if that grouping appears to have a slight tone of an admonishment. I'll take it as a huge compliment of trust and respect.
                          > > If we review some of what I've written to this board in the past, it feels appropriate to add that there might be a way of including my name in the pantheon of those who are attempting to add to the collective discussion and openness that Culadasa advocates. It is, however, as stated in my emails before my retreat, a belief I hold that even the best intentions towards understanding the Buddhadhamma when we compare and mix practices may be Mara doing his best to dilute the sasana. I hope in those emails I made it particularly clear that I have no problem with this process, with Mara, with the dilution of the sasana, and that my participation in the discussion is just a necessary part of this 'whole catastrophe' .
                          > > When we create new schools/practices and interpret older traditions based on incomplete understanding there will be inevitable misunderstandings which will, by definition, unbalance our understanding of the Noble 8 Fold Path. This must be so. Incomplete Wisdom leads to incomplete teaching. The question that arises then for me is to decide for oneself whether or not the Noble 8 Fold Path is, in fact, necessary for the realization of the Buddha's complete teachings, and whether or not these new teachings include the appropriate emphasis on the Noble 8 Fold Path, and/or have another and important adjunctive place in this new unfolding.
                          > > We each have to make this decision for ourselves. I will add that each time I have deepened my practice in my more `traditional training', which relies on time tested (or time dusted) application of the Noble 8 Fold Path, I have seen that my previous understanding was weak and incomplete.
                          > > When using the traditional approach of making the Noble 8 Fold Path the foundation of my practice I've come to notice that I learn more, see more subtleties, and my thought patterns change in ways that I could have had no way of understanding till the intuitive changes occurred.
                          > > Some schools of practice have many hundreds of years of experience, and literally hundreds of thousands of Aryans as proof of their efficacy. Past success does not mean that an extant school still holds the key to the success' of the past. We need to look to the disciples of a school and to assess their Wisdom, and or judge our own experience in order to assess the Path we are walking. New schools that do not have a clear and accountable liniage have this intrinsic weakness, they have very little history, and few practioners to demonstrate the ultimate end of that particular school's understanding and teachings. These new schools have few solid markers to judge it by, and the teachers of these traditions are often having to find their way without having had anyone walk this particular way before.
                          > > I mentioned in an email before my retreat that there appears to me to be clear evidence, despite the questions above, that some new schools and approaches to meditation do jump start meditation progress for many. I stated that these approaches can, for some, be an important avenue otherwise unavailable due to the previously discussed weaknesses of more traditional practices.
                          > > Culadasa writes: What is the difference between the experience that was described as annihilation and those that were not? Will the real Nirvana please stand up! What is the difference between the practices that brought them about? What is the difference in the pre-existing conceptual frameworks of our subjects?
                          > >  In this way, we will eventually learn to understand clearly and with confidence the true relationship between the pitisukha of samatha-vipassana and the Corruptions of the Mahasi method, between Samatha and a Sankharupekkhanana, between the Enlightenment of the Advaitists and the Sotapanna of the Buddhists, between the Divine Union of the Christian Mystics and the Nirvana of Buddhists. We will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do, or whether the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are just clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development.
                          > > Allan writes: I agree that it will be useful for us all when we better understand scientifically what are the various natures of this or that mental state vis a vis spiritual attainments.
                          > > Because of the limits of language I want make a few additional comments.
                          > > Admittedly the Corruptions of Insight play an interesting and very important part in Mahasi's teachings, but it would be an exaggeration to say that they are Mahasi's teachings. They are a linking part of the Vishuddimagga' s analysis of the Path of Purification.
                          > > Also, the above statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. If I misunderstand, please forgive me.
                          > > Culadasa, are you saying that there are 'deeper and lighter' magga-phalas and or 'deeper and lighter' phalas?
                          > > Later in this note we will discuss the ways of ascertaining magga-phala. When we personally see that various specific ways of thinking, speaking and acting have been changed or 'uprooted' that we will be certain that something profound has occurred.
                          > > C: Perhaps the most helpful thing I can add to this with reference to magga-phala is that the essence of Awakening is not in the nature of the experience itself (which can be quite variable depending upon both the individual and the practice), nor in the blissful or 'reborn' feelings that accompany it, and not in the conceptual interpretation of the experience afterwards (although that is important!), but in the realization it brings about and the transformational effect it has on the mind of the yogi.
                          > > Allan writes: In part I have to disagree with the above statement, and wholly agree with the other. Magga-phala, will always be the same except for very subtle differences. There will be subtle differences due to which Path the yogi has realized, and which `door' the yogi enters into magga-phala/ phala. Higher Paths have a more 'subtle and smooth' quality, but this is difficult to verify due to not having a scientific way to make a controlled study.
                          > > What makes the subsequent phala events appear to be different is that they will be preceded and followed by a myriad of different physical and mental signs and symptoms, which will often have different durations. The rest of the statement is spot on. Culadasa and I agree that the nature of 'Path' knowledge will be determined by its effect on the mind, and subsequent changes in thought/speech/ action, not the experience itself.
                          > > C: For this reason, the best way to determine the validity of a possible magga-phala event is to observe how the yogi has been changed, and how well those changes persist 6 months, a year, and many years afterward. The perception of and attachment to the notion of personal identity, attitude and behavior towards others, vulnerability to grief and sorrow, and enslavement to desire and aversion are the things that change and that provide true evidence of Path attainment.
                          > > Allan writes: I would like to emphasize and agree with Culadasa that there appears to be quite of few people who have likely had a 'magga-phala' events, and not have it take root. What changes occur deep in the mind I cannot address, but what is evident in these cases is that the most basic changes one might expect to see do not appear in the person's behavior.
                          > > Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon
                          > > 1)   how a magga-phala moment can be identified
                          > > 2)   how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)
                          > > Allan writes: One of the easiest and best ways to identify a magga-phala event is to re-visit phala again and again. Magga-phala can open the door and allows access to phala. A yogi can train his/her mind to 'rest' in phala for longer and longer periods of time, or to have it arise quickly, frequently or at will. Phala becomes an increasingly significant feature in more advanced practice. Phala will frequently arise in the higher Paths (unless one takes a determination that it doesn't), and  the yogi's mind will incline without active intention more and more towards its release. The mind will also tend towards Equanimity About Formations in the periods between the phala episodes/trainings until the yogi for long stretches of time will know only phala and equanimity. Otherwise, determining the realization of magga-phala may be a hit and miss kind of diagnosis. Some folks will never really know that they have had a magga-phala event, but will report
                          > > funny changes in their behaviors and mind set afterwards. While for others it is a clear and simultaneously confusing and enlivening event, and for others, there may be the belief that they have had an Enlightenment event and have not.
                          > > Culadasa further addresses the question of how to determine magga-phala quite thoroughly below.
                          > > C: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any
                          > > formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi's mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn't happen, the `magga-phala' event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.
                          > > It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don't know, and so I can't speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to
                          > > their attenuation. This is where the `saturation of the mind' with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.
                          > > Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena (Allan writes: The term 'emptiness' may confuse the reader and narrow the discussion. The yogi with this level of Wisdom, depending on proclivity of mind, school training and ability, may focus with a non-conceptual observing mind on impermanence, suffering, or annata in various mixes. See the 18 Mahavipassana Contemplations. Visuddhi Magga: Chapter XXII, section 113, pages 813-4) rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the `absolute' and the `ultimate' within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to
                          > > be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.
                          > > If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.  
                          > > So, having done with that digression, let's now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala `event' might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can't possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can
                          > > seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. (Allan writes: This last statement is all too true.)  And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a `real' or `valid' magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else's experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.
                          > > To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is `just like what I have read and heard about", it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say "Despite what I have read and heard, it's not at all what I was expecting". A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.
                          > > But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won't go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a `non-event' for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.
                          > > And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.
                          > > Allan writes: In the Mahasi system it is relatively easy to determine if a yogi has had what this school believes is a Sotapanna or higher magga-phala event. The yogi will have reported the familiar signs and symptoms of all, or most, of the Path of Purification Insights common to that Path, and after the magga-phala event the yogi will report to the teacher certain patterns of mind that will be only available to one who has had what this school believes to have been a magga-phala event. Secondly; almost always, a person who has realized what this school believes to be magga-phala will on subsequent formal practice, begin their practice reporting certain markers that are not present in the non-Aryan mind.
                          > > C: For those for whom the event registers strongly and clearly enough that they are able to articulate a description, I suggest looking for the following points in that description:
                          > > 1. That it was in no sense a gap or lapse or in any other way a cessation of consciousness. It was definitely a fully conscious event.
                          > > Allan writes: I will offer a different perspective. I would say instead that magga-phala and all subsequent phala events are a cessation of all known objects, and that if consciousness exists while in this state of mind, it is of a type that does not register at all at or on any sense door. These phala events/experiences cannot be remembered, which, in fact, will be frequently described as cessation or a gap.
                          > > 2. At the same time, there was no object of consciousness, except possibly the simple absence of every sort of object, nor was there any observer or experiencer in the experience. This may well be described in terms of non-duality of pure consciousness  (Allan writes: A description like this can confuse and mislead people. Instead, I will offer that magga-phala is...magga-phala and subsequent phala events are phala events.),  of nibbana and/or anatta and/or sunnata, or as a merging with, surrender to, or disappearance into something inconceivably greater and beyond all knowing, such as the Godhead, the True Self, Ultimate Reality, Oneness, Is-ness, Voidness, Emptiness, etc.
                          > > 3. It clearly was not something arrived at, or a state that was attained to, or anything that arose or came into being, so much as it was the discovery or realization or opening up to an ever-present reality, one that that has been revealed through the cessation of obscuration or by the mind simply turning away from or letting go of ordinary perceptions. Some might describe this as the revelation of Truth through the stopping of the mind.
                          > > Allan writes: Here, too, our understandings have different tones. My understanding points me towards reporting that the mind is drawn to the event of phala, but takes mature Faith, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration and Wisdom for that door to open. The re-visiting of this state of mind combined with studied intention can produce remarkable changes in our everyday lives.
                          > > 4. The predominant or perhaps only subjective experiential quality described is one of great peace and blissful happiness.
                          > > Allan writes: Can't argue with this except to add that the happiness and bliss will only be noticed when the mind leaves this event!
                          > > 5. Immediately afterwards, everything, including oneself, is looked at in a different way than ever before, taken to be less real, nothing more than empty appearance by comparison with what has just been known.
                          > > Allan writes: I wonder if Culadasa and I are describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results?
                          > > C: These five, but especially the first three, are the best criteria I can suggest. Unless the meditator has repeated opportunities to experience phala samapatti, more and more confused conceptual accretions will accumulate around the experience as time passes, but these three points will remain clear: It is a conscious experience, one with no object and no self as observer, and it is completely undifferentiated in terms of space, time, or ontology
                          > > Ever present and undifferentiated in terms of space and time, the concepts of beginning and ending have absolutely no relevance. Ontologically undifferentiated and unconditioned, the concepts of multiplicity and divisibility do not apply.
                          > > Allan writes: According to my studies this sounds very much like a 'deep' immaterial jhana.
                          > > C: If the experience is the result of a systematic practice, the commonly described stages of the progress of Insight should have been clearly evident in the lead up to the experience. These include a clear intellectual grasp of the three characteristics, powerfully and convincingly confirmed through direct observation and experience, followed by a complete disaffection for and equanimity towards all sensory and mental phenomena. The mental state present immediately prior to the experience is most likely to have been one of profound attentional stability, unusually clear and intense perceptual awareness, deep tranquility, and an impervious, Teflon-like equanimity with no vestige of attraction, aversion and attachment to anything that arises in conscious awareness.
                          > > Allan writes: Here Culadasa says clearly what I tried to say above.
                          > > C: With regard to the changes that subsequently take place in a Sotapanna, the yogi's mind and brain undergo a particular change in regard to the mechanism of self-identification . There is a mechanism in the human mind that performs the function of `selfing', of identifying the self and its characteristics, of distinguishing the self from that which is other than self and constructing boundaries, and of positing this self as the receiver of experience and the initiator of actions and intentions. Ordinarily it is some combination of the body, the mind, and certain peculiarities of mental function to which this mechanism attaches the notion of self-identity. Although prior to the magga-phala event the force of these attachments will have been greatly weakened through both intellectual and intuitive insight into the fallacious nature of the self construct, the mechanism of `selfing' would not have ceased to function. The nature of the magga-phala
                          > > event is such that:
                          > > The registration in the mind of an experience of consciousness that is both objectless and observer-less allows the mind's `selfing' mechanism to completely relinquish attachment to the body/mind/personali ty as self.
                          > > This is an unconscious reaction that happens immediately upon resuming ordinary awareness and perception, but the yogi only becomes consciously aware of the non-attachment to personality afterwards upon reflection.
                          > > The irreversible realization of the emptiness of the personality construct renders it unsuitable for future strong attachment and identification by the `selfing' mechanism. Thus at any later time, especially when the Sotapana yogi has been acting egocentrically and becomes aware of it, either as a result of their own unnecessary suffering or the suffering they are causing to others, such ego-identification and attachment as has arisen can be relinquished as soon as it is recognized.
                          > > Although there is no longer any attachment to the personality view, there continues to be the inherent sense of self as the experience. Because the magga-phala was a conscious experience, the `selfing' mechanism can still attach to that retrospectively perceived consciousness of the experience, which can then serve as the basis for a stable self-identification in a form expressed as "I am THAT" or "I AM that I AM". This can either be held at bay through the continued invocation of the concept of anatta, or else it will expand into a new self-identity. The best remedy is frequent absorption into the nibbana of phala samapatti. This inherent sense of self as experiencer, and the clinging to separate existence as such a self persists until Arahatship.
                          > > Allan writes: Extremely well said.
                          > > C: Certain factors come together for the Sotapanna to bring forth a significant increase in caring and compassion for others. There is a deep understanding and appreciation of the universality of suffering and the causes of suffering amongst all sentient beings, and this, combined with having had a direct experience of undifferentiated reality as just such a sentient being, has a powerful heart opening effect. This is quite apart from the feelings of love that naturally follow from one's experience of bliss, because loving feelings secondary to bliss will fade. The Sotapanna views others not so much as good or bad, better or worse in terms of their actions and attitudes, but compassionately as subject to the same oppression by craving and delusion as him or herself, therefore seeing them as suffering and in need of liberation.
                          > > Although there is a myth that the Sotapanna has perfect sila, and never commits unwholesome actions, this is not quite true. Much depends upon the perfection of virtue that has already been achieved, and on the environment and circumstances the Sotapanna finds him or herself in. Desire, aversion, and old habits are still present, and so lapses can occur, but the mindfulness of the Sotapanna is strong, and so it is true that any lapses will be minor and infrequent. But what will have changed the most is the basis for the Sotapanna's sila, and this is related to an increase in wisdom, loving kindness and compassion. The essence of sila is in refraining from any thought, speech or action that causes avoidable harm, not only to others, but also to oneself. The sila of a Sotapanna is founded on mindfulness, loving kindness and compassion, and an understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination. Sila becomes more of a natural and intuitive mode of
                          > > behaving, rather than following a set of rules.
                          > > Allan writes: Here too I must wholly agree with Culadasa. I will add that Second Path and further Path training attenuates the attachment to self, and produces a spontaneous non-harming way of behaving both mentally and in our actions. This quality of non-harming (loving-kindness, compassion, and Wisdom) becomes a regular feature in the mind, and translates into a natural progression towards spontaneous cleaner Virtue.
                          > > C: A Sotapanna will experience suffering, because desire and aversion are still present, as are the habitual patterns of thought, speech, and action that are rooted in desire and aversion. But the Sotapanna will be relatively immune to the extremes of suffering that are dependent on the view of phenomena as self-existently real, and on attachment to the body, mind and personality as self. Whenever such suffering becomes intense enough, mindful awareness of Path Knowledge of anatta and sunnata will kick in. Early on, this Knowledge is fresh and strong and in the forefront of the awareness. As time passes, and especially as the yogi becomes embroiled in the affairs of the world, it recedes but it is never lost. As the Sotapanna becomes aware through moment to moment mindfulness of just how much desire and aversion keep him or her enslaved, it is through his/her understanding of sunnata, kamma, and dependent origination that s/he begins the process of
                          > > uprooting them.
                          > > Allan writes: This discussion re what is, or what is not Enlightenment, can be a great distraction. I'm reminded of the criticism and his response to criticisms Leigh Brasington has gotten re his method of practice. Some have criticized him and his teachings as limited and not Wisdom directed. He once said something like, 'if given a choice to live in a neighborhood of jhana junkies or a neighborhood of any other kind of junkie, which would you choose?' His point, if I understand correctly, is pretty darn simple. When we train the mind, our sila and panna improve. There are those who believe that 'dry vipassana' is sufficient to lead a yogi to Arahantship. There are others who say that 'dry vipassana' will not lead to even Sotapanna. Others still who say samatha is a non-Wisdom producing meditation, and others insist that a combination of both samatha/vipassana is what it takes to pass over the flood. Take your pick, but whichever you choose, bring the
                          > > Controlling Faculties on board as the tool to move you along.
                          > > When anyone comes to complete Wisdom, that person will have gotten there by one Path, the Path that brought them there. The conditioning that comes along with any training will make it difficult at best, impossible at worst, to address without 'prejudice' another Path to complete Wisdom.
                          > > Culadasa posits above that there is the possibility that there are ways to some Enlightenment stages that may not need meditation training of any kind. Again, I cannot speak to any practice other than what I have learned through first hand experience, and even then, because I'm not fully Enlightened and cannot be certain where the Path I walk will lead me. The one thing that remains constant with it all; if our sila improves, if we become kinder and less attached to personality, and if our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant become increasingly ameliorated as a result of our practices, I say, Go For It. If you do, you'll be doing me and everyone else a great service. The greater your Wisdom, the safer and happier we all will be.
                          > > Allan writes: Below is the email that I sent to Culadasa soliciting his input re the above email.
                          > > From: Allan Cooper [mailto:nama1rupa@ ...]
                          > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 12:01 AM
                          > > To: Culadasa
                          > > Subject: help!
                          > > Hi Culadasa-
                          > > Hope you are well and happy! Me? Good retreat again this year, extremely good, and the body held up well, which gives me pause in my plannings...
                          > > Below {this is in reference to my post above} is a meandering response to a couple of emails to jhana_insight that you provided. One of them, I believe, may have been posted before I went to retreat, and the other arrived in my box after I returned.
                          > > There is a whole lot there. Some of my responses are redundant and unworthy of comment, I'm sure, but never the less, these comments have somehow found their way from my mind to my fingers to your mailbox. In the process of writing this kind of note I've noticed in times past that when I don't run something like this by someone who will have a balanced eye, I can find myself having dug myself into a hole that I never even noticed. So, instead of committing more time and effort to the project, and because I value your comments, AND because, more or less, the post is directed to you, I think it a good idea to run it by you for comment before I even decide whether or not to post it.
                          > > I am concerned about some of the content and its context. I'm concerned that because I find reason to disagree with some of what you say, you or the casual reader will interpret what I say as arguing, or that the intention of my comments are to slam you or your understandings. Neither of these intentions are anywhere to found in my mind stream. Instead, in my disagreements with you, I am trying, I am attempting, at the same time, to allow the reader to accept the possibility of my being way off, or that there is the very real potential that both perspectives may be true and useful.
                          > > I send this relatively unedited draft to you in order to get your feedback before, or if, I post it. I have already given much time and effort due to my paucity of ability and the many `disagreements' I have had with café computers in Kathmandu and Bangkok.
                          > > Thanks for considering my request, and look forward not only to your comments, but also to the next time we can be together.
                          > >  Much metta, allan
                          > >  
                          > > Hello Allan,
                          > > My dear friend, I fully appreciate that you are offering "a differing perspective in an open and embracing fashion in an effort to widen the field a bit", and that is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed. I really enjoyed your whole introduction to the discussion of these points of controversy. It is thorough, elegant and very well balanced. The same goes for your closing remarks.
                          > > After reading through and pondering upon the various points you have raised, I too cannot help wondering if we are "describing different psycho/spiritual happenings that have very similar relative results", and that is perhaps the very crux of the matter, is it not?
                          > > In one of my earlier posts I suggested that through careful examination "we will be able to answer the question whether Mahasi yogis fail to experience real insights the way Pa Auk yogis do…", to which you replied:
                          > > "This statement seems to imply a conclusion rather than a question. I read that there is the belief that one school has a 'deeper' or better way, and the other may have only the possibility of a marginal understanding. "
                          > > This question I presented as an example actually came from a discussion that took place several years ago, referred to at http://sasanarakkha .org/unfold/ archive/2002_ 11_01_unfold. html, and which I will quote in full here:
                          > > "Ven. Ariyadhamma Mahathera and Dhammaramsi Thera from Sri Lanka pay us a visit. The Mahathera is a well-known meditation teacher and dhamma speaker in Sri Lanka. Ven. Aggacitta takes the opportunity to discuss and compare the Mahasi and Pa Auk methods of meditation. He seeks the Mahathera's opinion on the view held by some that Mahasi yogis do not experience real insights as what Pa Auk yogis do. The Mahathera disagrees with the view, saying that it is just their concept. He explains that the insights experienced by Pa Auk yogis are clearer and more profound because of the high degree of concentration attained prior to insight development. However, both methods can lead a yogi to enlightenment, he says. The Mahathera has been using the Mahasi method of meditation since 1957 when Mahasi Sayadaw and his assistants went to Sri Lanka to propagate pure-vipassana meditation. Now he prefers the Pa Auk way after his first experience at Pa Auk Forest Monastery
                          > > in 1997-1998."
                          > > I confess that I chose this particular question because I so often seem to hear Mahasi-tradition yogis, either subtly or not so subtly, casting doubt upon the validity of insights and realizations attained through other methods, especially methods that emphasize the cultivation of deep concentration. (I am definitely not referring to you or anyone else on this board here!) So I thought it might be helpful to remind ourselves that this can cut both ways. The conclusion, the important one implied in the question itself, is simply that there are indeed differences. The important question, the same one we are asking ourselves here, is whether these are fundamental differences in the attainments themselves, or perhaps significant but still comparatively superficial differences related to the details of the practice, such as the degree of concentration development. Ariyadhamma Mahathera's answer is clearly that there is in fact no fundamental difference (or
                          > > 'marginal' quality!) to the understanding of either school and that both lead to enlightenment. This is an open minded point of view, and is important in that it comes from someone who has practiced and taught both of these methods.
                          > > By the way, your statement:
                          > > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the Path of Purification and the Theravada way is the remarkable amount of similarity that is reported by most who choose to walk deeply into this training"
                          > > seems to attempt to usurp both the Vissudhimagga and indeed all of the Theravada to the Mahasi way, leaving Pa Auk and many other Theravadin paths, both Suttic and Vissudhimagga- based, out in the cold. I would rather you said something like:
                          > > "One of the most inspiring aspects about the particular modern interpretation of the Path of Purification developed, expounded and disseminated by Mahasi Sa

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                        • matheesha
                          Hi Daniel, This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant, even
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 13, 2009
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                            Hi Daniel,

                            This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having started jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious level and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the development feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.

                            As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few people have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards in this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement that some people might have. It is formed of a very dense samadhi/unfication of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it happen. It happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with bliss. If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:

                            http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Stock_Photo_of_hot_water_geyser_errupting/

                            If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not have the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds, perhaps best visualised like this:

                            http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0206c.html

                            or this

                            http://delphes.net/messier/more/m016_hst.html

                            ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black hole formations!

                            The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important one. I suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no focus on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either do the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi, in a particular sutta.

                            I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha samapatti and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of consciousness itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying degrees, IMO.

                            with metta

                            M







                            --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drbf2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Matheesha,
                            >
                            > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the classic ones
                            > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up the top
                            > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the "cone" is
                            > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of this
                            > word?
                            >
                            > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and passing
                            > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from oppression of
                            > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The Vis. M.
                            > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the factors of
                            > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that moment. I find
                            > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some kind of
                            > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this could be and
                            > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                            > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                            > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting nibbana.
                            >
                            > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                            > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go."
                            >
                            > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially evident
                            > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let go"
                            > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                            > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which becomes
                            > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                            >
                            > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                            > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                            > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back
                            > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength
                            > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                            > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince."
                            >
                            > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it is very
                            > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                            > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me to
                            > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness, but when
                            > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all not only
                            > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity of the
                            > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of Arising and
                            > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that KAPA is
                            > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct balance of
                            > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are that in
                            > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA the
                            > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are not as
                            > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and teahers to
                            > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context. Although
                            > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in KAPA.
                            >
                            > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                            > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it
                            > is aware only of itself."
                            >
                            > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This process
                            > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in acendance or
                            > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is in
                            > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor in the
                            > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into itself.
                            > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not wish to
                            > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that makes them
                            > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But when
                            > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might occur as a
                            > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in itself. The
                            > diference between these and magga-phala is that the consciousness has
                            > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to contemplate
                            > itself as a dhamma.
                            >
                            > With metta,
                            >
                            > Daniel
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                            > >
                            > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness of
                            > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                            > >
                            > > I would like to make two points/observations:
                            > >
                            > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
                            > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by seeing
                            > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by
                            > being
                            > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self, or
                            > > foulness).
                            > >
                            > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
                            > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
                            > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
                            > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
                            > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be repeated a
                            > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows in
                            > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days. There
                            > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience or
                            > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the satipatthana
                            > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                            > >
                            > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
                            > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                            > nothingness,
                            > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also theoretically
                            > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which arises
                            > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden' (of
                            > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is essential
                            > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just to
                            > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a person
                            > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                            > especially
                            > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is a
                            > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                            > >
                            > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar religious
                            > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important
                            > aspect
                            > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this buddhist
                            > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with God
                            > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
                            > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                            > >
                            > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate that
                            > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone was
                            > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                            > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                            > >
                            > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is projected
                            > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by fetters
                            > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
                            > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength of a
                            > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the faculties
                            > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                            > >
                            > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
                            > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is
                            > aware
                            > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs after
                            > a
                            > > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
                            > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because
                            > clearly
                            > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the conceptual
                            > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                            > >
                            > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can be
                            > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                            > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the mind
                            > can
                            > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I
                            > have
                            > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala, when
                            > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                            > >
                            > > I hope that illuminates..
                            > >
                            > > with metta
                            > >
                            > > M
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > If I were called upon to decide w
                            > >
                            >
                          • Daniel
                            Hi Matheesha, I thank you so much for your answers. Fascinating stuff, isn t it? I have a couple more questions when you have the time: 1/ Hindu yogis often
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 13, 2009
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                              Hi Matheesha,

                              I thank you so much for your answers. Fascinating stuff, isn't it? I
                              have a couple more questions when you have the time:

                              1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
                              movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness by
                              exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
                              hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the head"?
                              Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?

                              2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak, but
                              subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
                              degree of identification."

                              Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
                              speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I have
                              experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and beyond
                              the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this as
                              SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if there
                              is some understanding of development here that are more useful.

                              Metta,

                              Daniel


                              --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Daniel,
                              >
                              > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN and
                              KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant, even
                              though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
                              descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having started
                              jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
                              experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious level
                              and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the development
                              feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
                              >
                              > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few people
                              have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards in
                              this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement that
                              some people might have. It is formed of a very dense samadhi/unfication
                              of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
                              uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
                              yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it happen. It
                              happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with bliss.
                              If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
                              gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
                              >
                              >
                              http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Stock_Photo_of_hot_water_geyser_errup\
                              ting/
                              >
                              > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
                              shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not have
                              the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
                              completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds, perhaps
                              best visualised like this:
                              >
                              > http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0206c.html
                              >
                              > or this
                              >
                              > http://delphes.net/messier/more/m016_hst.html
                              >
                              > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black hole
                              formations!
                              >
                              > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important one. I
                              suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
                              into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
                              awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
                              self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no focus
                              on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either do
                              the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi, in a
                              particular sutta.
                              >
                              > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
                              vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
                              version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha samapatti
                              and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of consciousness
                              itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying degrees,
                              IMO.
                              >
                              > with metta
                              >
                              > M
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Matheesha,
                              > >
                              > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the classic
                              ones
                              > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up the
                              top
                              > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the "cone"
                              is
                              > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of this
                              > > word?
                              > >
                              > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
                              passing
                              > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from oppression of
                              > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The Vis.
                              M.
                              > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the factors of
                              > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that moment. I
                              find
                              > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
                              kind of
                              > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this could be
                              and
                              > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                              > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                              > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
                              nibbana.
                              > >
                              > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                              > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with letting
                              go."
                              > >
                              > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
                              evident
                              > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let go"
                              > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                              > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
                              becomes
                              > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                              > >
                              > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness
                              is
                              > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back
                              by
                              > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
                              back
                              > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                              strength
                              > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                              > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
                              expereince."
                              > >
                              > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it is
                              very
                              > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                              > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me to
                              > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness, but
                              when
                              > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all not
                              only
                              > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity of
                              the
                              > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of Arising
                              and
                              > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
                              KAPA is
                              > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct balance
                              of
                              > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are that
                              in
                              > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA the
                              > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are not as
                              > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and teahers to
                              > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
                              Although
                              > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in KAPA.
                              > >
                              > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                              > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where
                              it
                              > > is aware only of itself."
                              > >
                              > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
                              process
                              > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in acendance
                              or
                              > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is in
                              > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor in
                              the
                              > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
                              itself.
                              > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not wish
                              to
                              > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that makes
                              them
                              > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But when
                              > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might occur
                              as a
                              > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in itself.
                              The
                              > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the consciousness
                              has
                              > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
                              contemplate
                              > > itself as a dhamma.
                              > >
                              > > With metta,
                              > >
                              > > Daniel
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                              > > >
                              > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness
                              of
                              > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                              > > >
                              > > > I would like to make two points/observations:
                              > > >
                              > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
                              > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by
                              seeing
                              > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by
                              > > being
                              > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self,
                              or
                              > > > foulness).
                              > > >
                              > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
                              > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
                              > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
                              > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
                              > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
                              repeated a
                              > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows
                              in
                              > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                              There
                              > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience
                              or
                              > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                              satipatthana
                              > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                              > > >
                              > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
                              > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                              > > nothingness,
                              > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                              theoretically
                              > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                              arises
                              > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden'
                              (of
                              > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                              essential
                              > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just
                              to
                              > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a
                              person
                              > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                              > > especially
                              > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is
                              a
                              > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
                              religious
                              > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important
                              > > aspect
                              > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
                              buddhist
                              > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with
                              God
                              > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
                              > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                              > > >
                              > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate
                              that
                              > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone
                              was
                              > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                              > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                              > > >
                              > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                              projected
                              > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                              fetters
                              > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
                              > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength
                              of a
                              > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                              faculties
                              > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                              > > >
                              > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
                              > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is
                              > > aware
                              > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs
                              after
                              > > a
                              > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
                              > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because
                              > > clearly
                              > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                              conceptual
                              > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                              > > >
                              > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can
                              be
                              > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                              > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
                              mind
                              > > can
                              > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I
                              > > have
                              > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala,
                              when
                              > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                              > > >
                              > > > I hope that illuminates..
                              > > >
                              > > > with metta
                              > > >
                              > > > M
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > If I were called upon to decide w
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • matheesha
                              Hi Daniel ... Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 13, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Daniel

                                > 1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
                                > movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness by
                                > exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
                                > hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the head"?
                                > Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?

                                'Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach the dhamma- he very well knew the answer! (not implying you are ingenuous in any way :) )

                                Well, as far as I have heard there is no 'exiting through the top of the head', but I wouldnt rule it out considering the wide variation in experience. The concept of 'nirvikalpa samadhi' reads more like a jhana reached through metta when one reads the descriptions, where the person experiences a sense of unification with everything, 'make me one with everything', as the joke goes:

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa_Samadhi

                                It is clearly not an insight process as the ideas of self on a universal level is still maintained.

                                I have often wondered whether the chakras were the same as jhana, but have never reached a satisfactory conclusion. I vaguely remember the last chakra having something to do with the head and perhaps going through the top.

                                There is an experiential difference between this rising and the jhanic rising of the mind. It is very difficult to put into words. Similarly there is a difference in this emptiness and the emptiness of the jhanas.

                                > 2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak, but
                                > subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
                                > degree of identification."
                                >
                                > Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
                                > speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I have
                                > experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and beyond
                                > the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this as
                                > SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if there
                                > is some understanding of development here that are more useful.
                                >

                                Yes, magga-phala and phalasamawata is what I alluded to. I dont necessarily agree that we fall back into SUN -especially if the yogi has stopped practice. There is concept in the suttas called 'seka parihani' meaning 'deterioration of the trainee', and that such people live in relative sadness, because they have stopped the practice for whatever reason. So they may have to start up again and may reach SUN.

                                There are several ways in we might conceptualize higher training:

                                Considering that the Buddha generally proclaimes that all four foundations of mindfulness should be practiced, it is my experience that practicing them seperately on their own has distinct advantages. Each of those objects of meditation in the four foundations seems to target specific areas of clinging - as the final outcome of each is 'naca kinci loke upadiyata' 'clinging to naught in the world'. Or to put it in another way concentrations of avijja/delusion surround each object - body, feelings, thoughts etc and specific useful work can be done by which contributes towards letting go of everything at every level. The buddha equals this to skinning an animal, cutting off the tendons which bind the skin to the flesh and putting the skin back on, but detached. Ven Anuruddha defines a trainee as someoen who hasnt fully practiced the four foundations and the 'asekha' arahanth as one who has. I think this is a point where most current meditation methods fall short, and a possible reason why we dont see as many arahanths in the world, as otherwise using the one method progress becomes laborious.

                                In one sense stream entry only affords us a snap shot of the truth. The real work only begins after this- no wonder then the trainee 'sekha' is only called such after stream entry, not before it! We get a snap shot ('sacca') which can be over-archingly summarized as the four noble truths. The next bit as mentioned in the dhammachakkapawattana sutta is to work these insights into our mind, our patterns of thinking ('krutya'). The final stage is where the yogi have become the truths, and there is no more 'I'. ('krutha'). These are the three stages in which the four noble truths are learnt in twelve different ways ('dwadasakaran tiparivattam'). I think the arduous path to stream entry is in a way a minature version of the whole path to nibbana ending in arahanthship. We dont really do much different for the attainment of the higher attainments in one way, and so much more when we look at it, from another perspective.

                                Another useful way to articulate the higher attainments is as you know is by way of fetters; or by saying having deeper and deeper leves of the same insight.

                                'Gone beyond needing a teacher' is another characterisation of the trainee. I had this impression of the magga-phala moment like a puncture in the hull of plane flying at high altitude. Sooner or later everything is going to get sucked through and lost in the void. The magga- phala moment is a puncture in samsara, like a punture in a baloon or in a tire. That final moment is where the noble eightfold path causes samsara to end (or more acurately another moment not to arise), it is not the causation of nibbana, as the latter is uncaused.

                                with metta

                                Matheesha









                                > Metta,
                                >
                                > Daniel
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Daniel,
                                > >
                                > > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN and
                                > KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant, even
                                > though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
                                > descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having started
                                > jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
                                > experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious level
                                > and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the development
                                > feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
                                > >
                                > > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few people
                                > have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards in
                                > this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement that
                                > some people might have. It is formed of a very dense samadhi/unfication
                                > of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
                                > uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
                                > yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it happen. It
                                > happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with bliss.
                                > If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
                                > gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Stock_Photo_of_hot_water_geyser_errup\
                                > ting/
                                > >
                                > > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
                                > shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not have
                                > the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
                                > completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds, perhaps
                                > best visualised like this:
                                > >
                                > > http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0206c.html
                                > >
                                > > or this
                                > >
                                > > http://delphes.net/messier/more/m016_hst.html
                                > >
                                > > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black hole
                                > formations!
                                > >
                                > > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important one. I
                                > suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
                                > into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
                                > awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
                                > self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no focus
                                > on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either do
                                > the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi, in a
                                > particular sutta.
                                > >
                                > > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
                                > vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
                                > version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha samapatti
                                > and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of consciousness
                                > itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying degrees,
                                > IMO.
                                > >
                                > > with metta
                                > >
                                > > M
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Matheesha,
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the classic
                                > ones
                                > > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up the
                                > top
                                > > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the "cone"
                                > is
                                > > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of this
                                > > > word?
                                > > >
                                > > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
                                > passing
                                > > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from oppression of
                                > > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The Vis.
                                > M.
                                > > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the factors of
                                > > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that moment. I
                                > find
                                > > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
                                > kind of
                                > > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this could be
                                > and
                                > > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                                > > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                                > > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
                                > nibbana.
                                > > >
                                > > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                                > > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with letting
                                > go."
                                > > >
                                > > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
                                > evident
                                > > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let go"
                                > > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                                > > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
                                > becomes
                                > > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                                > > >
                                > > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness
                                > is
                                > > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back
                                > by
                                > > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
                                > back
                                > > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                > strength
                                > > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                                > > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
                                > expereince."
                                > > >
                                > > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it is
                                > very
                                > > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                                > > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me to
                                > > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness, but
                                > when
                                > > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all not
                                > only
                                > > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity of
                                > the
                                > > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of Arising
                                > and
                                > > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
                                > KAPA is
                                > > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct balance
                                > of
                                > > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are that
                                > in
                                > > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA the
                                > > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are not as
                                > > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and teahers to
                                > > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
                                > Although
                                > > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in KAPA.
                                > > >
                                > > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                                > > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where
                                > it
                                > > > is aware only of itself."
                                > > >
                                > > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
                                > process
                                > > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in acendance
                                > or
                                > > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is in
                                > > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor in
                                > the
                                > > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
                                > itself.
                                > > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not wish
                                > to
                                > > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that makes
                                > them
                                > > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But when
                                > > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might occur
                                > as a
                                > > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in itself.
                                > The
                                > > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the consciousness
                                > has
                                > > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
                                > contemplate
                                > > > itself as a dhamma.
                                > > >
                                > > > With metta,
                                > > >
                                > > > Daniel
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the lateness
                                > of
                                > > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I would like to make two points/observations:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of all
                                > > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about by
                                > seeing
                                > > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie- by
                                > > > being
                                > > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess, non-self,
                                > or
                                > > > > foulness).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie the
                                > > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can vary
                                > > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered and
                                > > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations of a
                                > > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
                                > repeated a
                                > > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties grows
                                > in
                                > > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                                > There
                                > > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the experience
                                > or
                                > > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                                > satipatthana
                                > > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what follows
                                > > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                                > > > nothingness,
                                > > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                                > theoretically
                                > > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                                > arises
                                > > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the burden'
                                > (of
                                > > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                                > essential
                                > > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However just
                                > to
                                > > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that a
                                > person
                                > > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                                > > > especially
                                > > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into phalasamawatha is
                                > a
                                > > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
                                > religious
                                > > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most important
                                > > > aspect
                                > > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
                                > buddhist
                                > > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify with
                                > God
                                > > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting go of
                                > > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome mindstate
                                > that
                                > > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If someone
                                > was
                                > > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                                > > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                                > projected
                                > > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                                > fetters
                                > > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back into
                                > > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the strength
                                > of a
                                > > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                                > faculties
                                > > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness gives up
                                > > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it is
                                > > > aware
                                > > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense organs
                                > after
                                > > > a
                                > > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of satipatthana
                                > > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice because
                                > > > clearly
                                > > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                                > conceptual
                                > > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states can
                                > be
                                > > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                                > > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
                                > mind
                                > > > can
                                > > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one below. I
                                > > > have
                                > > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th magga-phala,
                                > when
                                > > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I hope that illuminates..
                                > > > >
                                > > > > with metta
                                > > > >
                                > > > > M
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > If I were called upon to decide w
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Daniel
                                Dear Matheesha, Thank you for all of your imput and reflection on this subject matter. I am conflicted as to how useful it is, but certainly it is fascinating.
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 19, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Matheesha,

                                  Thank you for all of your imput and reflection on this subject matter.
                                  I am conflicted as to how useful it is, but certainly it is fascinating.
                                  As to the question of nivakalpa samadhi in yoga vedanta or tantra, I
                                  have seen it used in two ways. In one way it is a state of completely
                                  formless absorption, seemingly synonymous with the asamprajnata samadhi
                                  of ashtanga yoga (also called nirbija samadhi), and often described as
                                  preceded by a sensation of consciousness leaving the body via the top of
                                  the head.

                                  In its second meaning, it is synonymous to sahaja (natural) samadhi,
                                  which is as you described: an experience of non-dual awareness in which
                                  the senses and the body are fully functional.

                                  I do not have much understanding of chakras as they relate to the
                                  classic samadhis of vedanta or tantra. Other than that they remain
                                  sabija and vikalpa below the level of the head. I have tried in the past
                                  to correlate the samadhi system of ashtanga yoga with that of the suttas
                                  but it does not quite fit, although the similarities are compelling. It
                                  is tempting to match of the chakras to the classic eight jhanas, but
                                  here again, it does not quite match. My own conclusion is the that realm
                                  of samadhi is very much like a color chart with incremental gradation
                                  up, down, across and at all angles. Most likely all of these
                                  classification systems are fully valid, and simply group these
                                  experiences by different criteria such as mental factors, mundane or
                                  supermundane, (Pali) subtlety of the object (ashtanga), as experienced
                                  through increasingly subtle components of our being (chakras) etc.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Daniel


                                  --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Daniel
                                  >
                                  > > 1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
                                  > > movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness
                                  by
                                  > > exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
                                  > > hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the
                                  head"?
                                  > > Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?
                                  >
                                  > 'Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the
                                  mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach
                                  the dhamma- he very well knew the answer! (not implying you are
                                  ingenuous in any way :) )
                                  >
                                  > Well, as far as I have heard there is no 'exiting through the top of
                                  the head', but I wouldnt rule it out considering the wide variation in
                                  experience. The concept of 'nirvikalpa samadhi' reads more like a jhana
                                  reached through metta when one reads the descriptions, where the person
                                  experiences a sense of unification with everything, 'make me one with
                                  everything', as the joke goes:
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa_Samadhi
                                  >
                                  > It is clearly not an insight process as the ideas of self on a
                                  universal level is still maintained.
                                  >
                                  > I have often wondered whether the chakras were the same as jhana, but
                                  have never reached a satisfactory conclusion. I vaguely remember the
                                  last chakra having something to do with the head and perhaps going
                                  through the top.
                                  >
                                  > There is an experiential difference between this rising and the jhanic
                                  rising of the mind. It is very difficult to put into words. Similarly
                                  there is a difference in this emptiness and the emptiness of the jhanas.
                                  >
                                  > > 2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak,
                                  but
                                  > > subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
                                  > > degree of identification."
                                  > >
                                  > > Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
                                  > > speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I
                                  have
                                  > > experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and
                                  beyond
                                  > > the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this
                                  as
                                  > > SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if
                                  there
                                  > > is some understanding of development here that are more useful.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Yes, magga-phala and phalasamawata is what I alluded to. I dont
                                  necessarily agree that we fall back into SUN -especially if the yogi has
                                  stopped practice. There is concept in the suttas called 'seka parihani'
                                  meaning 'deterioration of the trainee', and that such people live in
                                  relative sadness, because they have stopped the practice for whatever
                                  reason. So they may have to start up again and may reach SUN.
                                  >
                                  > There are several ways in we might conceptualize higher training:
                                  >
                                  > Considering that the Buddha generally proclaimes that all four
                                  foundations of mindfulness should be practiced, it is my experience that
                                  practicing them seperately on their own has distinct advantages. Each of
                                  those objects of meditation in the four foundations seems to target
                                  specific areas of clinging - as the final outcome of each is 'naca kinci
                                  loke upadiyata' 'clinging to naught in the world'. Or to put it in
                                  another way concentrations of avijja/delusion surround each object -
                                  body, feelings, thoughts etc and specific useful work can be done by
                                  which contributes towards letting go of everything at every level. The
                                  buddha equals this to skinning an animal, cutting off the tendons which
                                  bind the skin to the flesh and putting the skin back on, but detached.
                                  Ven Anuruddha defines a trainee as someoen who hasnt fully practiced the
                                  four foundations and the 'asekha' arahanth as one who has. I think this
                                  is a point where most current meditation methods fall short, and a
                                  possible reason why we dont see as many arahanths in the world, as
                                  otherwise using the one method progress becomes laborious.
                                  >
                                  > In one sense stream entry only affords us a snap shot of the truth.
                                  The real work only begins after this- no wonder then the trainee 'sekha'
                                  is only called such after stream entry, not before it! We get a snap
                                  shot ('sacca') which can be over-archingly summarized as the four noble
                                  truths. The next bit as mentioned in the dhammachakkapawattana sutta is
                                  to work these insights into our mind, our patterns of thinking
                                  ('krutya'). The final stage is where the yogi have become the truths,
                                  and there is no more 'I'. ('krutha'). These are the three stages in
                                  which the four noble truths are learnt in twelve different ways
                                  ('dwadasakaran tiparivattam'). I think the arduous path to stream entry
                                  is in a way a minature version of the whole path to nibbana ending in
                                  arahanthship. We dont really do much different for the attainment of the
                                  higher attainments in one way, and so much more when we look at it, from
                                  another perspective.
                                  >
                                  > Another useful way to articulate the higher attainments is as you know
                                  is by way of fetters; or by saying having deeper and deeper leves of the
                                  same insight.
                                  >
                                  > 'Gone beyond needing a teacher' is another characterisation of the
                                  trainee. I had this impression of the magga-phala moment like a puncture
                                  in the hull of plane flying at high altitude. Sooner or later everything
                                  is going to get sucked through and lost in the void. The magga- phala
                                  moment is a puncture in samsara, like a punture in a baloon or in a
                                  tire. That final moment is where the noble eightfold path causes samsara
                                  to end (or more acurately another moment not to arise), it is not the
                                  causation of nibbana, as the latter is uncaused.
                                  >
                                  > with metta
                                  >
                                  > Matheesha
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Metta,
                                  > >
                                  > > Daniel
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Daniel,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN
                                  and
                                  > > KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant,
                                  even
                                  > > though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
                                  > > descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having
                                  started
                                  > > jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
                                  > > experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious
                                  level
                                  > > and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the
                                  development
                                  > > feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few
                                  people
                                  > > have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards
                                  in
                                  > > this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement
                                  that
                                  > > some people might have. It is formed of a very dense
                                  samadhi/unfication
                                  > > of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
                                  > > uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
                                  > > yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it
                                  happen. It
                                  > > happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with
                                  bliss.
                                  > > If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
                                  > > gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Stock_Photo_of_hot_water_geyser_errup\
                                  \
                                  > > ting/
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
                                  > > shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not
                                  have
                                  > > the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
                                  > > completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds,
                                  perhaps
                                  > > best visualised like this:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0206c.html
                                  > > >
                                  > > > or this
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://delphes.net/messier/more/m016_hst.html
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black
                                  hole
                                  > > formations!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important
                                  one. I
                                  > > suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
                                  > > into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
                                  > > awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
                                  > > self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no
                                  focus
                                  > > on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either
                                  do
                                  > > the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi,
                                  in a
                                  > > particular sutta.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
                                  > > vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
                                  > > version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha
                                  samapatti
                                  > > and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of
                                  consciousness
                                  > > itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying
                                  degrees,
                                  > > IMO.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > with metta
                                  > > >
                                  > > > M
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hi Matheesha,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the
                                  classic
                                  > > ones
                                  > > > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up
                                  the
                                  > > top
                                  > > > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the
                                  "cone"
                                  > > is
                                  > > > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of
                                  this
                                  > > > > word?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
                                  > > passing
                                  > > > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from
                                  oppression of
                                  > > > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The
                                  Vis.
                                  > > M.
                                  > > > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the
                                  factors of
                                  > > > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that
                                  moment. I
                                  > > find
                                  > > > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
                                  > > kind of
                                  > > > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this
                                  could be
                                  > > and
                                  > > > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                                  > > > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                                  > > > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
                                  > > nibbana.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever
                                  wholesome
                                  > > > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with
                                  letting
                                  > > go."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
                                  > > evident
                                  > > > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let
                                  go"
                                  > > > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                                  > > > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
                                  > > becomes
                                  > > > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of
                                  awareness
                                  > > is
                                  > > > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held
                                  back
                                  > > by
                                  > > > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
                                  > > back
                                  > > > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                  > > strength
                                  > > > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when
                                  the
                                  > > > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
                                  > > expereince."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it
                                  is
                                  > > very
                                  > > > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                                  > > > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me
                                  to
                                  > > > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness,
                                  but
                                  > > when
                                  > > > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all
                                  not
                                  > > only
                                  > > > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity
                                  of
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of
                                  Arising
                                  > > and
                                  > > > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
                                  > > KAPA is
                                  > > > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct
                                  balance
                                  > > of
                                  > > > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are
                                  that
                                  > > in
                                  > > > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA
                                  the
                                  > > > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are
                                  not as
                                  > > > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and
                                  teahers to
                                  > > > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
                                  > > Although
                                  > > > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in
                                  KAPA.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when
                                  consciousness
                                  > > > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself-
                                  where
                                  > > it
                                  > > > > is aware only of itself."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
                                  > > process
                                  > > > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in
                                  acendance
                                  > > or
                                  > > > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is
                                  in
                                  > > > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor
                                  in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
                                  > > itself.
                                  > > > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not
                                  wish
                                  > > to
                                  > > > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that
                                  makes
                                  > > them
                                  > > > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But
                                  when
                                  > > > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might
                                  occur
                                  > > as a
                                  > > > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in
                                  itself.
                                  > > The
                                  > > > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the
                                  consciousness
                                  > > has
                                  > > > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
                                  > > contemplate
                                  > > > > itself as a dhamma.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > With metta,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Daniel
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the
                                  lateness
                                  > > of
                                  > > > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I would like to make two points/observations:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of
                                  all
                                  > > > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about
                                  by
                                  > > seeing
                                  > > > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie-
                                  by
                                  > > > > being
                                  > > > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess,
                                  non-self,
                                  > > or
                                  > > > > > foulness).
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie
                                  the
                                  > > > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can
                                  vary
                                  > > > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered
                                  and
                                  > > > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations
                                  of a
                                  > > > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
                                  > > repeated a
                                  > > > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties
                                  grows
                                  > > in
                                  > > > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                                  > > There
                                  > > > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the
                                  experience
                                  > > or
                                  > > > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                                  > > satipatthana
                                  > > > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what
                                  follows
                                  > > > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                                  > > > > nothingness,
                                  > > > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                                  > > theoretically
                                  > > > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                                  > > arises
                                  > > > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the
                                  burden'
                                  > > (of
                                  > > > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                                  > > essential
                                  > > > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However
                                  just
                                  > > to
                                  > > > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that
                                  a
                                  > > person
                                  > > > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                                  > > > > especially
                                  > > > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into
                                  phalasamawatha is
                                  > > a
                                  > > > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
                                  > > religious
                                  > > > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most
                                  important
                                  > > > > aspect
                                  > > > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
                                  > > buddhist
                                  > > > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify
                                  with
                                  > > God
                                  > > > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting
                                  go of
                                  > > > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                                  mindstate
                                  > > that
                                  > > > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If
                                  someone
                                  > > was
                                  > > > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                                  > > > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                                  > > projected
                                  > > > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                                  > > fetters
                                  > > > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back
                                  into
                                  > > > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                  strength
                                  > > of a
                                  > > > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                                  > > faculties
                                  > > > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                                  gives up
                                  > > > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it
                                  is
                                  > > > > aware
                                  > > > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense
                                  organs
                                  > > after
                                  > > > > a
                                  > > > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of
                                  satipatthana
                                  > > > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice
                                  because
                                  > > > > clearly
                                  > > > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                                  > > conceptual
                                  > > > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states
                                  can
                                  > > be
                                  > > > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                                  > > > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
                                  > > mind
                                  > > > > can
                                  > > > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one
                                  below. I
                                  > > > > have
                                  > > > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th
                                  magga-phala,
                                  > > when
                                  > > > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I hope that illuminates..
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > with metta
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > M
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > If I were called upon to decide w
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • matheesha
                                  Hi Daniel, I remembered something after we last communicated. The coning and other experiences seemed linked to the first stage magga-phala experience.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 24, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Daniel,

                                    I remembered something after we last communicated. The 'coning' and other experiences seemed linked to the first stage magga-phala experience. However for those attaining the second and possibly the third there is another experience- seemingly connected with what you mentioned about an experience above the head.

                                    It seems to start in the extremeties of the body (hands etc), tingling sensations, rapturous, a rush, building up and going up through the chest and the head and above it- almost like a sagittal halo- as often the buddha is depicted -with a vertical halo or aura around his head, spreading out and expanding. I have come across this experience 4 times now in those practicing for higher stages (and interestingly none of the coning type experiences,unless it was a re-run of the first stage).

                                    I am sorry that you were left ambivalent about the usefulness of my answer! Indeed I thought you were asking me about ways of conceptualising progress in the higher paths and fruits. Were you thinking of something more practical perhaps?

                                    with metta

                                    M






                                    --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drbf2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dear Matheesha,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for all of your imput and reflection on this subject matter.
                                    > I am conflicted as to how useful it is, but certainly it is fascinating.
                                    > As to the question of nivakalpa samadhi in yoga vedanta or tantra, I
                                    > have seen it used in two ways. In one way it is a state of completely
                                    > formless absorption, seemingly synonymous with the asamprajnata samadhi
                                    > of ashtanga yoga (also called nirbija samadhi), and often described as
                                    > preceded by a sensation of consciousness leaving the body via the top of
                                    > the head.
                                    >
                                    > In its second meaning, it is synonymous to sahaja (natural) samadhi,
                                    > which is as you described: an experience of non-dual awareness in which
                                    > the senses and the body are fully functional.
                                    >
                                    > I do not have much understanding of chakras as they relate to the
                                    > classic samadhis of vedanta or tantra. Other than that they remain
                                    > sabija and vikalpa below the level of the head. I have tried in the past
                                    > to correlate the samadhi system of ashtanga yoga with that of the suttas
                                    > but it does not quite fit, although the similarities are compelling. It
                                    > is tempting to match of the chakras to the classic eight jhanas, but
                                    > here again, it does not quite match. My own conclusion is the that realm
                                    > of samadhi is very much like a color chart with incremental gradation
                                    > up, down, across and at all angles. Most likely all of these
                                    > classification systems are fully valid, and simply group these
                                    > experiences by different criteria such as mental factors, mundane or
                                    > supermundane, (Pali) subtlety of the object (ashtanga), as experienced
                                    > through increasingly subtle components of our being (chakras) etc.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    >
                                    > Daniel
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Daniel
                                    > >
                                    > > > 1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
                                    > > > movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness
                                    > by
                                    > > > exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
                                    > > > hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the
                                    > head"?
                                    > > > Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?
                                    > >
                                    > > 'Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the
                                    > mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach
                                    > the dhamma- he very well knew the answer! (not implying you are
                                    > ingenuous in any way :) )
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, as far as I have heard there is no 'exiting through the top of
                                    > the head', but I wouldnt rule it out considering the wide variation in
                                    > experience. The concept of 'nirvikalpa samadhi' reads more like a jhana
                                    > reached through metta when one reads the descriptions, where the person
                                    > experiences a sense of unification with everything, 'make me one with
                                    > everything', as the joke goes:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa_Samadhi
                                    > >
                                    > > It is clearly not an insight process as the ideas of self on a
                                    > universal level is still maintained.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have often wondered whether the chakras were the same as jhana, but
                                    > have never reached a satisfactory conclusion. I vaguely remember the
                                    > last chakra having something to do with the head and perhaps going
                                    > through the top.
                                    > >
                                    > > There is an experiential difference between this rising and the jhanic
                                    > rising of the mind. It is very difficult to put into words. Similarly
                                    > there is a difference in this emptiness and the emptiness of the jhanas.
                                    > >
                                    > > > 2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak,
                                    > but
                                    > > > subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
                                    > > > degree of identification."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
                                    > > > speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I
                                    > have
                                    > > > experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and
                                    > beyond
                                    > > > the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this
                                    > as
                                    > > > SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if
                                    > there
                                    > > > is some understanding of development here that are more useful.
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, magga-phala and phalasamawata is what I alluded to. I dont
                                    > necessarily agree that we fall back into SUN -especially if the yogi has
                                    > stopped practice. There is concept in the suttas called 'seka parihani'
                                    > meaning 'deterioration of the trainee', and that such people live in
                                    > relative sadness, because they have stopped the practice for whatever
                                    > reason. So they may have to start up again and may reach SUN.
                                    > >
                                    > > There are several ways in we might conceptualize higher training:
                                    > >
                                    > > Considering that the Buddha generally proclaimes that all four
                                    > foundations of mindfulness should be practiced, it is my experience that
                                    > practicing them seperately on their own has distinct advantages. Each of
                                    > those objects of meditation in the four foundations seems to target
                                    > specific areas of clinging - as the final outcome of each is 'naca kinci
                                    > loke upadiyata' 'clinging to naught in the world'. Or to put it in
                                    > another way concentrations of avijja/delusion surround each object -
                                    > body, feelings, thoughts etc and specific useful work can be done by
                                    > which contributes towards letting go of everything at every level. The
                                    > buddha equals this to skinning an animal, cutting off the tendons which
                                    > bind the skin to the flesh and putting the skin back on, but detached.
                                    > Ven Anuruddha defines a trainee as someoen who hasnt fully practiced the
                                    > four foundations and the 'asekha' arahanth as one who has. I think this
                                    > is a point where most current meditation methods fall short, and a
                                    > possible reason why we dont see as many arahanths in the world, as
                                    > otherwise using the one method progress becomes laborious.
                                    > >
                                    > > In one sense stream entry only affords us a snap shot of the truth.
                                    > The real work only begins after this- no wonder then the trainee 'sekha'
                                    > is only called such after stream entry, not before it! We get a snap
                                    > shot ('sacca') which can be over-archingly summarized as the four noble
                                    > truths. The next bit as mentioned in the dhammachakkapawattana sutta is
                                    > to work these insights into our mind, our patterns of thinking
                                    > ('krutya'). The final stage is where the yogi have become the truths,
                                    > and there is no more 'I'. ('krutha'). These are the three stages in
                                    > which the four noble truths are learnt in twelve different ways
                                    > ('dwadasakaran tiparivattam'). I think the arduous path to stream entry
                                    > is in a way a minature version of the whole path to nibbana ending in
                                    > arahanthship. We dont really do much different for the attainment of the
                                    > higher attainments in one way, and so much more when we look at it, from
                                    > another perspective.
                                    > >
                                    > > Another useful way to articulate the higher attainments is as you know
                                    > is by way of fetters; or by saying having deeper and deeper leves of the
                                    > same insight.
                                    > >
                                    > > 'Gone beyond needing a teacher' is another characterisation of the
                                    > trainee. I had this impression of the magga-phala moment like a puncture
                                    > in the hull of plane flying at high altitude. Sooner or later everything
                                    > is going to get sucked through and lost in the void. The magga- phala
                                    > moment is a puncture in samsara, like a punture in a baloon or in a
                                    > tire. That final moment is where the noble eightfold path causes samsara
                                    > to end (or more acurately another moment not to arise), it is not the
                                    > causation of nibbana, as the latter is uncaused.
                                    > >
                                    > > with metta
                                    > >
                                    > > Matheesha
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > Metta,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Daniel
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Daniel,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN
                                    > and
                                    > > > KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant,
                                    > even
                                    > > > though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
                                    > > > descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having
                                    > started
                                    > > > jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
                                    > > > experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious
                                    > level
                                    > > > and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the
                                    > development
                                    > > > feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few
                                    > people
                                    > > > have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards
                                    > in
                                    > > > this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement
                                    > that
                                    > > > some people might have. It is formed of a very dense
                                    > samadhi/unfication
                                    > > > of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
                                    > > > uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
                                    > > > yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it
                                    > happen. It
                                    > > > happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with
                                    > bliss.
                                    > > > If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
                                    > > > gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > http://www.shopwiki.co.uk/detail/d=Stock_Photo_of_hot_water_geyser_errup\
                                    > \
                                    > > > ting/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
                                    > > > shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not
                                    > have
                                    > > > the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
                                    > > > completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds,
                                    > perhaps
                                    > > > best visualised like this:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0206c.html
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > or this
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > http://delphes.net/messier/more/m016_hst.html
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black
                                    > hole
                                    > > > formations!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important
                                    > one. I
                                    > > > suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
                                    > > > into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
                                    > > > awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
                                    > > > self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no
                                    > focus
                                    > > > on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either
                                    > do
                                    > > > the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi,
                                    > in a
                                    > > > particular sutta.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
                                    > > > vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
                                    > > > version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha
                                    > samapatti
                                    > > > and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of
                                    > consciousness
                                    > > > itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying
                                    > degrees,
                                    > > > IMO.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > with metta
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > M
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hi Matheesha,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the
                                    > classic
                                    > > > ones
                                    > > > > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up
                                    > the
                                    > > > top
                                    > > > > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the
                                    > "cone"
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of
                                    > this
                                    > > > > > word?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
                                    > > > passing
                                    > > > > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from
                                    > oppression of
                                    > > > > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The
                                    > Vis.
                                    > > > M.
                                    > > > > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the
                                    > factors of
                                    > > > > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that
                                    > moment. I
                                    > > > find
                                    > > > > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
                                    > > > kind of
                                    > > > > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this
                                    > could be
                                    > > > and
                                    > > > > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                                    > > > > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                                    > > > > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
                                    > > > nibbana.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever
                                    > wholesome
                                    > > > > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with
                                    > letting
                                    > > > go."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
                                    > > > evident
                                    > > > > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let
                                    > go"
                                    > > > > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                                    > > > > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
                                    > > > becomes
                                    > > > > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of
                                    > awareness
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held
                                    > back
                                    > > > by
                                    > > > > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
                                    > > > back
                                    > > > > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                    > > > strength
                                    > > > > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when
                                    > the
                                    > > > > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
                                    > > > expereince."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it
                                    > is
                                    > > > very
                                    > > > > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                                    > > > > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me
                                    > to
                                    > > > > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness,
                                    > but
                                    > > > when
                                    > > > > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all
                                    > not
                                    > > > only
                                    > > > > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity
                                    > of
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of
                                    > Arising
                                    > > > and
                                    > > > > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
                                    > > > KAPA is
                                    > > > > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct
                                    > balance
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are
                                    > that
                                    > > > in
                                    > > > > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA
                                    > the
                                    > > > > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are
                                    > not as
                                    > > > > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and
                                    > teahers to
                                    > > > > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
                                    > > > Although
                                    > > > > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in
                                    > KAPA.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when
                                    > consciousness
                                    > > > > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself-
                                    > where
                                    > > > it
                                    > > > > > is aware only of itself."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
                                    > > > process
                                    > > > > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in
                                    > acendance
                                    > > > or
                                    > > > > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is
                                    > in
                                    > > > > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor
                                    > in
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
                                    > > > itself.
                                    > > > > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not
                                    > wish
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that
                                    > makes
                                    > > > them
                                    > > > > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But
                                    > when
                                    > > > > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might
                                    > occur
                                    > > > as a
                                    > > > > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in
                                    > itself.
                                    > > > The
                                    > > > > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the
                                    > consciousness
                                    > > > has
                                    > > > > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
                                    > > > contemplate
                                    > > > > > itself as a dhamma.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > With metta,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Daniel
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the
                                    > lateness
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I would like to make two points/observations:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of
                                    > all
                                    > > > > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about
                                    > by
                                    > > > seeing
                                    > > > > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie-
                                    > by
                                    > > > > > being
                                    > > > > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess,
                                    > non-self,
                                    > > > or
                                    > > > > > > foulness).
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie
                                    > the
                                    > > > > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can
                                    > vary
                                    > > > > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered
                                    > and
                                    > > > > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations
                                    > of a
                                    > > > > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
                                    > > > repeated a
                                    > > > > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties
                                    > grows
                                    > > > in
                                    > > > > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                                    > > > There
                                    > > > > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the
                                    > experience
                                    > > > or
                                    > > > > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                                    > > > satipatthana
                                    > > > > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what
                                    > follows
                                    > > > > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                                    > > > > > nothingness,
                                    > > > > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                                    > > > theoretically
                                    > > > > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                                    > > > arises
                                    > > > > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the
                                    > burden'
                                    > > > (of
                                    > > > > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                                    > > > essential
                                    > > > > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However
                                    > just
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that
                                    > a
                                    > > > person
                                    > > > > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                                    > > > > > especially
                                    > > > > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into
                                    > phalasamawatha is
                                    > > > a
                                    > > > > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
                                    > > > religious
                                    > > > > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most
                                    > important
                                    > > > > > aspect
                                    > > > > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
                                    > > > buddhist
                                    > > > > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify
                                    > with
                                    > > > God
                                    > > > > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting
                                    > go of
                                    > > > > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                                    > mindstate
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If
                                    > someone
                                    > > > was
                                    > > > > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                                    > > > > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                                    > > > projected
                                    > > > > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                                    > > > fetters
                                    > > > > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back
                                    > into
                                    > > > > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                    > strength
                                    > > > of a
                                    > > > > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                                    > > > faculties
                                    > > > > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                                    > gives up
                                    > > > > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it
                                    > is
                                    > > > > > aware
                                    > > > > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense
                                    > organs
                                    > > > after
                                    > > > > > a
                                    > > > > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of
                                    > satipatthana
                                    > > > > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice
                                    > because
                                    > > > > > clearly
                                    > > > > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                                    > > > conceptual
                                    > > > > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states
                                    > can
                                    > > > be
                                    > > > > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                                    > > > > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
                                    > > > mind
                                    > > > > > can
                                    > > > > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one
                                    > below. I
                                    > > > > > have
                                    > > > > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th
                                    > magga-phala,
                                    > > > when
                                    > > > > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I hope that illuminates..
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > with metta
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > M
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > If I were called upon to decide w
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Daniel B.
                                    Dear Matheesha   Lately my own experience with spontaneous phala in sittings has been as follows: I am in a deeply formless, indescribable really, state, and
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
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                                      Dear Matheesha
                                       
                                      Lately my own experience with spontaneous phala in sittings has been as follows: I am in a
                                      deeply formless, indescribable really, state, and then something that I can only call a wave of transparency come through and lifts my mind into nothingness. Later, I open my eyes to look at the cloak and see that there is missing time, usually a  half hour or more. I do not believe that "coning" or any other way of experience this process has anything to do with stages. How the yogi experiences emergence into emptiness is pretty much idosynchratic, having to do with individual conditioning, other than the fact there there is this sense of reorienting into the dimension of the absolute.
                                       
                                      Matheesha, my ambivalence has nothing to do with your answers, which I actually find very illuminating. My ambivalence is about the usefulness in general of these topics, especially in a public forum where many without sufficient experience may actually be hindered by the accumulation of opinions and views on such matters. I believe every yogi is entitled to have his or her own adventure in consciousness and should not be made to feel that they must relive someone elses experience. Innocence and freshness in authentic discovery can be very powerful aspects of practice that have a vulnerability that enable deep transformation.
                                       
                                      That said, I seem to contine with these posts, but I am really winding down on this kind of conversation. I think I am inclined to have this level of consversation in a more private format from now on so I can gear responses to the needs or level of the person I am writing to.
                                       
                                      With metta,
                                       
                                      Daniel

                                      --- On Tue, 3/24/09, matheesha <dhammachat@...> wrote:

                                      From: matheesha <dhammachat@...>
                                      Subject: [jhana_insight] Re: Discussion with Culadasa and Allan
                                      To: jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 2:40 PM

                                      Hi Daniel,

                                      I remembered something after we last communicated. The 'coning' and other experiences seemed linked to the first stage magga-phala experience. However for those attaining the second and possibly the third there is another experience- seemingly connected with what you mentioned about an experience above the head.

                                      It seems to start in the extremeties of the body (hands etc), tingling sensations, rapturous, a rush, building up and going up through the chest and the head and above it- almost like a sagittal halo- as often the buddha is depicted -with a vertical halo or aura around his head, spreading out and expanding. I have come across this experience 4 times now in those practicing for higher stages (and interestingly none of the coning type experiences, unless it was a re-run of the first stage).

                                      I am sorry that you were left ambivalent about the usefulness of my answer! Indeed I thought you were asking me about ways of conceptualising progress in the higher paths and fruits. Were you thinking of something more practical perhaps?

                                      with metta

                                      M

                                      --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel" <drbf2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Dear Matheesha,
                                      >
                                      > Thank you for all of your imput and reflection on this subject matter.
                                      > I am conflicted as to how useful it is, but certainly it is fascinating.
                                      > As to the question of nivakalpa samadhi in yoga vedanta or tantra, I
                                      > have seen it used in two ways. In one way it is a state of completely
                                      > formless absorption, seemingly synonymous with the asamprajnata samadhi
                                      > of ashtanga yoga (also called nirbija samadhi), and often described as
                                      > preceded by a sensation of consciousness leaving the body via the top of
                                      > the head.
                                      >
                                      > In its second meaning, it is synonymous to sahaja (natural) samadhi,
                                      > which is as you described: an experience of non-dual awareness in which
                                      > the senses and the body are fully functional.
                                      >
                                      > I do not have much understanding of chakras as they relate to the
                                      > classic samadhis of vedanta or tantra. Other than that they remain
                                      > sabija and vikalpa below the level of the head. I have tried in the past
                                      > to correlate the samadhi system of ashtanga yoga with that of the suttas
                                      > but it does not quite fit, although the similarities are compelling. It
                                      > is tempting to match of the chakras to the classic eight jhanas, but
                                      > here again, it does not quite match. My own conclusion is the that realm
                                      > of samadhi is very much like a color chart with incremental gradation
                                      > up, down, across and at all angles. Most likely all of these
                                      > classification systems are fully valid, and simply group these
                                      > experiences by different criteria such as mental factors, mundane or
                                      > supermundane, (Pali) subtlety of the object (ashtanga), as experienced
                                      > through increasingly subtle components of our being (chakras) etc.
                                      >
                                      > Best wishes,
                                      >
                                      > Daniel
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Daniel
                                      > >
                                      > > > 1/ Hindu yogis often describe nirvakalpa samadhi as a kind of upward
                                      > > > movment of the mind in which the mind seems to enter into emptiness
                                      > by
                                      > > > exiting through the top of th head. Do you recall experiencing or
                                      > > > hearing from others this sense of "exiting through the top of the
                                      > head"?
                                      > > > Would describe this rising mind experience in this manner?
                                      > >
                                      > > 'Rising of the mind, rising of the mind, what is this rising of the
                                      > mind?!! Ven Sariputta asked questions like this so that he could teach
                                      > the dhamma- he very well knew the answer! (not implying you are
                                      > ingenuous in any way :) )
                                      > >
                                      > > Well, as far as I have heard there is no 'exiting through the top of
                                      > the head', but I wouldnt rule it out considering the wide variation in
                                      > experience. The concept of 'nirvikalpa samadhi' reads more like a jhana
                                      > reached through metta when one reads the descriptions, where the person
                                      > experiences a sense of unification with everything, 'make me one with
                                      > everything', as the joke goes:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Nirvikalpa_ Samadhi
                                      > >
                                      > > It is clearly not an insight process as the ideas of self on a
                                      > universal level is still maintained.
                                      > >
                                      > > I have often wondered whether the chakras were the same as jhana, but
                                      > have never reached a satisfactory conclusion. I vaguely remember the
                                      > last chakra having something to do with the head and perhaps going
                                      > through the top.
                                      > >
                                      > > There is an experiential difference between this rising and the jhanic
                                      > rising of the mind. It is very difficult to put into words. Similarly
                                      > there is a difference in this emptiness and the emptiness of the jhanas.
                                      > >
                                      > > > 2/ You said: "My own recollections of SUN and KAPA is quite weak,
                                      > but
                                      > > > subsequent stages are much more prominant, even though there is some
                                      > > > degree of identification. "
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Could you please explain what you mean by subsequent stages? Are you
                                      > > > speaking of stages beyond sankhar upekkha nyana? I ask because I
                                      > have
                                      > > > experienced much development after the initial magga-phala, and
                                      > beyond
                                      > > > the traditional nyana experiences, but I have always classified this
                                      > as
                                      > > > SUN, and have always thought of SUN as very large, and wonder if
                                      > there
                                      > > > is some understanding of development here that are more useful.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, magga-phala and phalasamawata is what I alluded to. I dont
                                      > necessarily agree that we fall back into SUN -especially if the yogi has
                                      > stopped practice. There is concept in the suttas called 'seka parihani'
                                      > meaning 'deterioration of the trainee', and that such people live in
                                      > relative sadness, because they have stopped the practice for whatever
                                      > reason. So they may have to start up again and may reach SUN.
                                      > >
                                      > > There are several ways in we might conceptualize higher training:
                                      > >
                                      > > Considering that the Buddha generally proclaimes that all four
                                      > foundations of mindfulness should be practiced, it is my experience that
                                      > practicing them seperately on their own has distinct advantages. Each of
                                      > those objects of meditation in the four foundations seems to target
                                      > specific areas of clinging - as the final outcome of each is 'naca kinci
                                      > loke upadiyata' 'clinging to naught in the world'. Or to put it in
                                      > another way concentrations of avijja/delusion surround each object -
                                      > body, feelings, thoughts etc and specific useful work can be done by
                                      > which contributes towards letting go of everything at every level. The
                                      > buddha equals this to skinning an animal, cutting off the tendons which
                                      > bind the skin to the flesh and putting the skin back on, but detached.
                                      > Ven Anuruddha defines a trainee as someoen who hasnt fully practiced the
                                      > four foundations and the 'asekha' arahanth as one who has. I think this
                                      > is a point where most current meditation methods fall short, and a
                                      > possible reason why we dont see as many arahanths in the world, as
                                      > otherwise using the one method progress becomes laborious.
                                      > >
                                      > > In one sense stream entry only affords us a snap shot of the truth.
                                      > The real work only begins after this- no wonder then the trainee 'sekha'
                                      > is only called such after stream entry, not before it! We get a snap
                                      > shot ('sacca') which can be over-archingly summarized as the four noble
                                      > truths. The next bit as mentioned in the dhammachakkapawatta na sutta is
                                      > to work these insights into our mind, our patterns of thinking
                                      > ('krutya'). The final stage is where the yogi have become the truths,
                                      > and there is no more 'I'. ('krutha'). These are the three stages in
                                      > which the four noble truths are learnt in twelve different ways
                                      > ('dwadasakaran tiparivattam' ). I think the arduous path to stream entry
                                      > is in a way a minature version of the whole path to nibbana ending in
                                      > arahanthship. We dont really do much different for the attainment of the
                                      > higher attainments in one way, and so much more when we look at it, from
                                      > another perspective.
                                      > >
                                      > > Another useful way to articulate the higher attainments is as you know
                                      > is by way of fetters; or by saying having deeper and deeper leves of the
                                      > same insight.
                                      > >
                                      > > 'Gone beyond needing a teacher' is another characterisation of the
                                      > trainee. I had this impression of the magga-phala moment like a puncture
                                      > in the hull of plane flying at high altitude. Sooner or later everything
                                      > is going to get sucked through and lost in the void. The magga- phala
                                      > moment is a puncture in samsara, like a punture in a baloon or in a
                                      > tire. That final moment is where the noble eightfold path causes samsara
                                      > to end (or more acurately another moment not to arise), it is not the
                                      > causation of nibbana, as the latter is uncaused.
                                      > >
                                      > > with metta
                                      > >
                                      > > Matheesha
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Metta,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Daniel
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hi Daniel,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > This discussion is quite illuminating. My own recollections of SUN
                                      > and
                                      > > > KAPA is quite weak, but subsequent stages are much more prominant,
                                      > even
                                      > > > though there is some degree of identification. So thank you for your
                                      > > > descriptions. I suspect those who start vipassana after having
                                      > started
                                      > > > jhana would find some of these stages very brief; i've even had
                                      > > > experiences where the development seem to happen at a subconsious
                                      > level
                                      > > > and remerge into my awareness at a much later stage in the
                                      > development
                                      > > > feeling like a leap, but i suspect not being so.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > As for the 'cone' experience of the magga-phala moment- a few
                                      > people
                                      > > > have expressed it in this manner. They feel the mind moving upwards
                                      > in
                                      > > > this manner. This is quite different from a jhanic upward movement
                                      > that
                                      > > > some people might have. It is formed of a very dense
                                      > samadhi/unfication
                                      > > > of the mind (possibly the so called 'anantarika samadhi') and is
                                      > > > uncontrollable, unproducible and is automatically generated. All the
                                      > > > yogi can do is to be mindfully obersvant of anicca and let it
                                      > happen. It
                                      > > > happens over a few seconds. It may or may not be associated with
                                      > bliss.
                                      > > > If the faculties are especially strong it can happen like a strong
                                      > > > gushing, like a hot water geyser perhaps best represented visually:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > http://www.shopwiki .co.uk/detail/ d=Stock_Photo_ of_hot_water_ geyser_errup\
                                      > \
                                      > > > ting/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > If less stronger it may happens several times, almost as warning
                                      > > > shots, before the final erruption. These mini erruptions may not
                                      > have
                                      > > > the empty apex of the final erruption as fabrications havent cleared
                                      > > > completely. It can even be a less intense build up over seconds,
                                      > perhaps
                                      > > > best visualised like this:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > http://www.spacetel escope.org/ images/html/ heic0206c. html
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > or this
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > http://delphes. net/messier/ more/m016_ hst.html
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ..so instead of star formations we should be looking for black
                                      > hole
                                      > > > formations!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The issue whether this end event in unconscious is an important
                                      > one. I
                                      > > > suspect it is not, because it is not like falling asleep, or falling
                                      > > > into anaesthesia. I would agree, atleast that there is no object of
                                      > > > awareness. I think there is also an attempt to displace awareness it
                                      > > > self, atleast a kind on momentary inattention, where there is no
                                      > focus
                                      > > > on anything. This corresponds to the Buddha asking a monk to either
                                      > do
                                      > > > the four foundations of mindfulness or cultivate animitta samadhi,
                                      > in a
                                      > > > particular sutta.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I also suspect that the idea that in an arahath magga-phala moment
                                      > > > vinnana itself ceases completely, momentarily, is a more purified
                                      > > > version of this. This is also the difference between nirodha
                                      > samapatti
                                      > > > and phala samawatha. Nirodha samapatti is a closing off of
                                      > consciousness
                                      > > > itself, whereas in phala this inattention persists to varying
                                      > degrees,
                                      > > > IMO.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > with metta
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > M
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel" drbf2@ wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hi Matheesha,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yes, that "emerging upward" that you speak of is one of the
                                      > classic
                                      > > > ones
                                      > > > > > and recalls the metaphor in the Vis.M. of the bat that climbs up
                                      > the
                                      > > > top
                                      > > > > > branch of a tree and flies off. Although the part about the
                                      > "cone"
                                      > > > is
                                      > > > > > new to me. Could you describe to me what you mean by the use of
                                      > this
                                      > > > > > word?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I agree with the moment of nothingness, as you say arising and
                                      > > > passing
                                      > > > > > away must stop for the mind to experience freedom from
                                      > oppression of
                                      > > > > > occurence, but must that nothing be completely unconscious? The
                                      > Vis.
                                      > > > M.
                                      > > > > > tells us that all of the mental factors for jhana and the
                                      > factors of
                                      > > > > > enlightnement are all fully present and developed in that
                                      > moment. I
                                      > > > find
                                      > > > > > it hard to understand how so much development could lead to some
                                      > > > kind of
                                      > > > > > unconsciousness. I once asked the Ven. U Silananda how this
                                      > could be
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > > his response to me was that the yogis were not accustomed to the
                                      > > > > > experience. The Ven. Pemasiri has said that sometimes after the
                                      > > > > > experience of voidness the bhavangha sota goes not reflecting
                                      > > > nibbana.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > You said: "Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever
                                      > wholesome
                                      > > > > > mindstate that person produces is likely to be tinged with
                                      > letting
                                      > > > go."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > This is an excellent observation. The process becomes especially
                                      > > > evident
                                      > > > > > as soon as the mind becomes even slightly concentrated: the "let
                                      > go"
                                      > > > > > reflex kicks right in. This very much changes the way the mind
                                      > > > > > approaches samatha practice or any cultivation of samadhi, which
                                      > > > becomes
                                      > > > > > a journey from letting to to deeper letting go.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > You said: "There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of
                                      > awareness
                                      > > > is
                                      > > > > > projected into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held
                                      > back
                                      > > > by
                                      > > > > > fetters clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw
                                      > > > back
                                      > > > > > into samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                      > > > strength
                                      > > > > > of a magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > faculties arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala
                                      > > > expereince."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I really wanted to draw attention to this statement; I feel it
                                      > is
                                      > > > very
                                      > > > > > important as it addresses the issue of yogis having nibbana like
                                      > > > > > experiences below sankhar upekkha nyana. It never occured to me
                                      > to
                                      > > > > > acknowledge these as actual experiences of nibbanic voidness,
                                      > but
                                      > > > when
                                      > > > > > you put it in this way, it makes perfect sense. It is after all
                                      > not
                                      > > > only
                                      > > > > > the object (emptiness) that is important but also the maturity
                                      > of
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > > mind. This is a common experience for yogis inKnowledge of
                                      > Arising
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > > Passing Away (Udhayabhaya nyana). It is interesting to note that
                                      > > > KAPA is
                                      > > > > > very similar to sankhar upekkha nyana, having a very correct
                                      > balance
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > > the faculties and strong equanimity. The chief differences are
                                      > that
                                      > > > in
                                      > > > > > SUN the mind and the faculties are more developed, and in KAPA
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > quality of impermanence (as well as of dukkha and anatta) are
                                      > not as
                                      > > > > > subtle. I am told it is very common for both students and
                                      > teahers to
                                      > > > > > mistake KAPA for SUN, and telling them appart requires context.
                                      > > > Although
                                      > > > > > my understanding is the moment of cessation does not recur in
                                      > KAPA.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > You said: "Another intermediate state seems to be when
                                      > consciousness
                                      > > > > > gives up going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself-
                                      > where
                                      > > > it
                                      > > > > > is aware only of itself."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Again I feel it is important to emphasise this a bit more. This
                                      > > > process
                                      > > > > > can happen in at least a couple of ways, with insight in
                                      > acendance
                                      > > > or
                                      > > > > > with concentration and equanimity in ascendance. When insight is
                                      > in
                                      > > > > > ascendance, the experience refers back to that lovely metaphor
                                      > in
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > > Vis.M. of the the drop of water on the Lotus Leaf recoiling into
                                      > > > itself.
                                      > > > > > This is usually accompanied by a sense that the mind does not
                                      > wish
                                      > > > to
                                      > > > > > touch any objects due to the strong insight into dukkha that
                                      > makes
                                      > > > them
                                      > > > > > appear as undesirable (as in nibbida nyana for example). But
                                      > when
                                      > > > > > concentration and equanimity are in ascendance (SUN) it might
                                      > occur
                                      > > > as a
                                      > > > > > very balanced "knowing, knowing" with the mind at rest in
                                      > itself.
                                      > > > The
                                      > > > > > diference between these and magga-phala is that the
                                      > consciousness
                                      > > > has
                                      > > > > > not fully entered into its own emptiness but continues to
                                      > > > contemplate
                                      > > > > > itself as a dhamma.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > With metta,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Daniel
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@ >
                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Dear Daniel, Allen, Culladasa,
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I have read this thread with much interest- despite the
                                      > lateness
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > > > this reply I felt it might be worthwhile writing in:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I would like to make two points/observations :
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > 1) A maga-phala experiences has letting go/relinquishment of
                                      > all
                                      > > > > > > phenomena at it's core. This relinquishment is brought about
                                      > by
                                      > > > seeing
                                      > > > > > > the drawbacks of phenomena in a sustained, intense manner (ie-
                                      > by
                                      > > > > > being
                                      > > > > > > constantly mindful of impermanance, unsatisfactorniess,
                                      > non-self,
                                      > > > or
                                      > > > > > > foulness).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > The exernal manifestation of the magga-phala experience (ie
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > > immediate lead up to it and the what follows immediatly) can
                                      > vary
                                      > > > > > > widely according to experiences of the many I have encountered
                                      > and
                                      > > > > > > heard about. In the lead up to it there are often sensations
                                      > of a
                                      > > > > > > rising up of the mind, a cone leading upwards. This can be
                                      > > > repeated a
                                      > > > > > > few times until the 'jackpot' is hit, as the mind faculties
                                      > grows
                                      > > > in
                                      > > > > > > the stength and reaches culmination over a period of hrs/days.
                                      > > > There
                                      > > > > > > can massive amounts of rapture and bliss following the
                                      > experience
                                      > > > or
                                      > > > > > > not. Some people find it difficult to continue with the
                                      > > > satipatthana
                                      > > > > > > practice as the mind becomes refractory for a few hours.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > However while there is variation in the lead up and what
                                      > follows
                                      > > > > > > immediately, what I have seen is that there is a moment of
                                      > > > > > nothingness,
                                      > > > > > > a gap where arising a passing away stops. This is also
                                      > > > theoretically
                                      > > > > > > acurate- this is the ending of suffering; as 'everything which
                                      > > > arises
                                      > > > > > > is suffering'. Often there is a sense of relief, as 'the
                                      > burden'
                                      > > > (of
                                      > > > > > > the aggregates) is 'put down'. This moment of nothingness is
                                      > > > essential
                                      > > > > > > I believe- an important indicator of what happened. However
                                      > just
                                      > > > to
                                      > > > > > > muddy an already complex situation, it is quite possible that
                                      > a
                                      > > > person
                                      > > > > > > may miss this vital point or not remember it to report back,
                                      > > > > > especially
                                      > > > > > > when the yogi is older. Automatic emergence into
                                      > phalasamawatha is
                                      > > > a
                                      > > > > > > much better indicator of completed magga-phala experience.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I think it is possible to have phenomenologically similar
                                      > > > religious
                                      > > > > > > experiences. However despite the similarities the most
                                      > important
                                      > > > > > aspect
                                      > > > > > > of the practice - the relinquishment - is what drives this
                                      > > > buddhist
                                      > > > > > > experience. When trying to find atman/self or trying to unify
                                      > with
                                      > > > God
                                      > > > > > > there can be letting go of the sensual world but not letting
                                      > go of
                                      > > > > > > experience altogether. This is a rare event indeed.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Once a person has become ariya/noble whatever wholesome
                                      > mindstate
                                      > > > that
                                      > > > > > > person produces is likely to be tinged with letting go. If
                                      > someone
                                      > > > was
                                      > > > > > > an ariya in a previous birth, we cannot rule out a magga-phala
                                      > > > > > > experience in this lifetime when developing samadhi states.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > There are also states where the 'mind'/locus of awareness is
                                      > > > projected
                                      > > > > > > into nibbana by strong practice, but seems to be held back by
                                      > > > fetters
                                      > > > > > > clinging to phenomena. The mind in these situations draw back
                                      > into
                                      > > > > > > samsara, after some moments. This doesnt happen with the
                                      > strength
                                      > > > of a
                                      > > > > > > magga-phala experience however. It probably happens when the
                                      > > > faculties
                                      > > > > > > arent mature enough to give rise to a magga-phala expereince.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Another intermediate state seems to be when consciousness
                                      > gives up
                                      > > > > > > going after phenomena and seems to pool into intself- where it
                                      > is
                                      > > > > > aware
                                      > > > > > > only of itself. Once again it starts exploring the sense
                                      > organs
                                      > > > after
                                      > > > > > a
                                      > > > > > > little while. This is once again in the setting of
                                      > satipatthana
                                      > > > > > > practice (I have stoppped calling it vipassana practice
                                      > because
                                      > > > > > clearly
                                      > > > > > > there are elements of both samadhi and insight- if not the
                                      > > > conceptual
                                      > > > > > > entities of samatha and vipassana).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > It would seem that with the right condition magga-phala states
                                      > can
                                      > > > be
                                      > > > > > > reproduced endlessly. However the 'stage must be set' to go
                                      > > > > > > into 'higher' magga-phala- clearing of defilements so that the
                                      > > > mind
                                      > > > > > can
                                      > > > > > > go into the corresponding magga-phala rather than the one
                                      > below. I
                                      > > > > > have
                                      > > > > > > heard of some people giving instructions for the 6th
                                      > magga-phala,
                                      > > > when
                                      > > > > > > there can only be 4 according to the texts!
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I hope that illuminates. .
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > with metta
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > M
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > If I were called upon to decide w
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >


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