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Re: Name that emptiness! - suttas

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  • matheesha
    Hello All, Here are some sutta quotes I came across which seems to describe phala . Maybe we should use the correct word - or viraga sanna or nirodha sanna so
    Message 1 of 101 , Feb 21, 2008
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      Hello All,

      Here are some sutta quotes I came across which seems to
      describe 'phala'. Maybe we should use the correct word - or viraga
      sanna or nirodha sanna so that these hidden dhammas will manifest
      clearly again.

      with metta

      Matheesha


      6. Samàdhisuttaü Ý Concentration

      6. Then venerable ânanda approached The Blessed One ... re ... and
      said to The Blessed One:

      Venerable sir, is there a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
      which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
      perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
      he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
      he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
      of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
      in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
      perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
      the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
      perceptive.?"

      ânanda, there is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
      which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
      perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
      he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
      he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
      of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
      in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
      perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
      the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
      perceptive"

      Venerable sir, what is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
      which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
      perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
      he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
      he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
      of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
      in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
      perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
      the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
      perceptive?"

      Here, ânanda, the bhikkhu is perceptive thus: This is peaceful, this
      is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up
      of all endearments, destruction of craving, disenchantment,
      cessation and extinction. ânanda, in this manner, there is that
      concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in which, in earth he has no
      perceptions of earth, in water he has no perceptions of water, in
      fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air he has no perceptions of
      air, in the sphere of space, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
      space, in the sphere of consciousness, he has no perceptions of the
      sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
      perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere
      of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
      perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
      of the other world. Yet he is perceptive.

      http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
      Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/001-anisamsavaggo-e.html


      [6] ..."And what is the perception of dispassion? There is the case
      where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
      tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
      is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
      of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.'
      This is called the perception of dispassion.

      [7] "And what is the perception of cessation? There is the case
      where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
      tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
      is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
      of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.'
      This is called the perception of cessation.

      -http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html


      7. Sàriputtasuttaü Ý Venerable Sriputta

      7. Venerable ânanda approached venerable Sàriputta, exchanged
      friendly greetings, sat on a side and said:

      ßFriend, Sàriputta, is there a concentration, to the bhikkhu,
      abiding in which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water
      he has no perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of
      fire, in air he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space,
      he has no perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of
      consciousness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness,
      in the sphere of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
      nothingness, in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
      perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere of neither
      perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
      perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
      of the other world. Yet he is perceptive?"

      `Friend, ânanda, there is a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
      which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
      perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
      he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
      he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
      of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
      in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
      perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
      perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
      the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
      perceptive.

      ßFriend, Sàriputta, how is that concentration to the bhikkhu, in
      which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, ... re ... Yet he is
      perceptive?"

      ß Friend, ânanda, once I was abiding in this same dark forest in
      Sàvatthi and abode in that concentration. Then in earth I had no
      perceptions of earth, in water I had no perceptions of water, in
      fire I had no perceptions of fire, in air I had no perceptions of
      air, in the sphere of space, I had no perceptions of the sphere of
      space, in the sphere of consciousness, I had no perceptions of the
      sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, I had no
      perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
      perceptions nor non-perceptions, I had no perceptions of the sphere
      of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, I had no
      perceptions of this world. In the other world, I had no perceptions
      of the other world. Yet I was perceptive.

      ßFriend, Sàriputta, of what were you perceptive at the time?"

      ßFriend, ânanda, the perception, `Cessation of being is extinction.'
      arose and faded in me with knowledge. Friend, like at the edge of a
      potsherd the splinters rise and fade with knowledge. In the same
      manner the perception, `cessation of being is extinction' arose and
      faded in me. Friend, at that time I was of the perception,
      `Cessation of being is extinction.'û

      with metta

      Matheesha




      --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Daniel,
      >
      > I will look up 'non-manifesting consciousness' when I have the
      time,
      > unfortunately my consciousness is very much manifesting these days!
      >
      > You mentioned that in your practice the phalasmapatti was an
      > important part in progressing higher, if I havent misunderstood
      you.
      > My question to you is - how do you 'practice' phala ..and what is
      the
      > desired result of such practice?
      >
      > with metta
      >
      > Matheesha
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drbf2@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Dear matheesha,
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yes, the sensation of being immersed is there, and a very common
      > > description heard in Mahasi circles; however, I think for some
      > people it
      > > is not the most prominent aspect of the experience and so is
      often
      > not
      > > mentioned. Even when it is strong, there can be other words to
      > describe
      > > that sense, for example a mutual friend of Allan and myself,
      > expressed
      > > this by saying that "consciousness become shrouded." That sense
      > > of not only being completely cut off from space/time, but also
      > being in
      > > another kind of space altogether is, I think, the essence behind
      the
      > > words. Some people enter into supermundane absorption with a
      sense
      > of
      > > "going down" that adds to the submergence experience. The going
      > > down, or dropping away would seem to be the last formation of
      mind
      > > fading away, or ceasing, often experienced as a "fall." For some
      > > people it is naama-rupa that falls away, for others it is
      > consciousness
      > > that falls away from nama-rupa. The reorientation of
      consciousness
      > can
      > > be intuited as up, down, backwards, or inwards but I think that
      the
      > use
      > > of the concept "submerged" would only be present if the
      > > intuition was a downward fall of consciousness away from mind and
      > > matter. Interestingly, I don't think that we will ever hear of a
      > > "forward" direction towards immersion into voidness. If I did, I
      > > would suspect mundane jhana.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The ray of light metaphor is absolutely perfect! Can you find
      the
      > source
      > > for the "non-manifesting consciousness" for us? I was looking
      > > for this verse the other day, but could not find it.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > With metta,
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Daniel B.
      > >
      > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Culladasa, Daniel, All,
      > > >
      > > > I doubt if I have much more to add to this discussion except
      to
      > say
      > > > that my experience of entering into phala includes a sense
      > > > of 'sinking'. One of me teachers went as far to say that if
      the
      > yogi
      > > > does not talk of 'sinking' then that she would doubt the
      > attainment
      > > > of phala. There is certainly a sense of a 180 degree change
      > > > of 'direction' in consciousness from nama-rupa to nibbana. It
      is
      > > > often from these sensations that I detect that I am in the
      > process of
      > > > going into phala. There is some sense of moving from gross
      > stimuli to
      > > > increasingly subtle ones, as if going up the jhana ladder. But
      I
      > > > suppose those two paths are different in that jhaanas seem
      > propelled
      > > > by a dense samadhi while this is propelled by letting go hence
      > > > more 'relaxed'. The more deeper I go, I seem to loose motor
      areas
      > of
      > > > my brain as well and my body slumps forward in the sitting
      posture
      > > > loosing it's tone.
      > > >
      > > > Two bits from the suttas:
      > > > Anidassana vinnana 'non-manifestative consciousness'
      > > > and the mind in nibbbana being equalled to a beam of light
      coming
      > in
      > > > through a window, but not landing on a wall, infact, not
      landing
      > > > anywhere at all.
      > > >
      > > > with metta
      > > >
      > > > Matheesha
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello Daniel and All,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I had written:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
      > > > objects and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as
      Daniel
      > puts
      > > > it, with complete absorption;
      > > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
      > > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
      > times;
      > > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
      > > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
      > state
      > > > of absorption;
      > > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
      awareness
      > > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
      a
      > > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
      during
      > > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
      if I
      > > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
      > > > remembering a scene from a movie.
      > > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
      could
      > > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
      > continued.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To which you replied:
      > > > > "The experience you describe does not jive very well with the
      > > > Abhidhamma model of consciousness, but is compatible with the
      > model
      > > > of consciousness you put forward earlier on this board,
      wherein
      > you
      > > > described the senses and the mind as having each their own
      > > > simultaneously functioning sub-minds, and conscious attention
      as
      > > > seventh could move among them as needed. I wonder though, if
      your
      > > > conscious mind was absorbed in voidness, and your other
      subminds
      > > > were "running the show":
      > > > >
      > > > > Were the body and the mind functioning competently,
      performing
      > > > tasks, thinking, talking acting? If so did others perceive you
      > > > as "normal"?"
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > You have interpreted it the same way I do. The body and mind
      > were
      > > > apparently functioning competently, but in every instance I was
      > > > engaged in tasks that did not require much thinking, and
      talking
      > was
      > > > never involved. In the one instance where I was in the
      presence of
      > > > other people, I was perceived as "normal" – and I did ask.
      There
      > > is a
      > > > parallel with all kinds of situations in which we are so
      > preoccupied
      > > > in one activity that everything else is on automatic, and the
      > example
      > > > I frequently use is when we are driving a vehicle while `lost
      in
      > > > thought' or `lost in conversation' to the extent that we are
      > > > completely unaware of the activities of driving. The one
      > difference
      > > > that is distinctive is the quality of memory. In the driving
      > example
      > > > we may have some vague memories as though we are partially
      aware
      > from
      > > > time to time, but they are of the ordinary subjective kind. In
      the
      > > > instances I speak of, there was absolutely no awareness of the
      > > > ordinary events and activities (as best I can
      > > > > discern) during the episode, and the subsequent memory had a
      > more
      > > > objective and distant quality, most like remembering a scene
      from
      > a
      > > > movie.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > "Why doesn't this happen during normal jhana?"
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I don't know, maybe it would if one could enter jhana while
      > > > engaged in ordinary activities.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > As for jiving with the abhidhamma model of consciousness, I
      > don't
      > > > see any problem at all with this set of experiences. All other
      > bodily
      > > > functions continue while in phala, so why shouldn't the brain
      > > > continue to function as well, and why shouldn't the physical
      > > > processes of memory storage at the level of neural circuits,
      > neurons
      > > > and neurochemistry continue as well?
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > If there is a discordance with abhidhamma theory, it would
      be in
      > > > the case of simultaneous awareness of nibbana and namarupa in
      the
      > > > other unusual phala experiences we have discussed here and
      that
      > you
      > > > have described as "…what appears to be phala conjoined to sense
      > > > experience." Of those experiences, the ones I had in retreat
      > included
      > > > awareness and recollection of the factors of spatiality, mental
      > > > state, and dualistic perception and those that you and
      Matheesha
      > > > described would have included those factors plus the awareness
      and
      > > > memory of sensations and mental objects arising during the
      phala
      > > > event.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > As you have said yourself: "When entering phala, everything
      is
      > > > released (you do not release it), and everything includes the
      > > > tilakhana and the very function of perception itself. One has
      to
      > > > release to the very core of one's mind/being…". On the other
      hand,
      > > > Matheesha has said: "Phala is certainly a state of animitta -
      > signless-
      > > > or a state where there is no attention. There are vague sense
      > > > impressions happening almonst in the 'background" [emphasis is
      > mine]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > The only way I can think of explaining this that would not
      be at
      > > > odds with the abhidhamma model would be the same way that we
      > explain
      > > > the ordinary experience of being conscious of multiple objects
      > > > simultaneously, which is to say that consciousness is very
      rapidly
      > > > alternating between objects. But in this case, for there to be
      an
      > > > inter-leaving between vinnana with namarupa as object and
      panna
      > with
      > > > nibbana as object, consciousness is not just changing objects,
      it
      > is
      > > > shifting into a different mode entirely and undergoing a major
      > change
      > > > in orientation between relative and ultimate realities,.
      > > > The `rotation' would have to become a `spinning', but instead
      > there
      > > > is a `stuckness'.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > You ask:
      > > > > "What is actually happening with the "rotation, collapsing
      > > > etc."?
      > > > >
      > > > > Keeping in mind that not every one uses this language or
      > > > experiences it in this way, there is frequently this
      experience
      > of a
      > > > temporally discrete and radical reorientation of
      consciousness. If
      > > > this process is not the supermundane equivalent of absorption
      > > > happening, then what is it? And more to the point, what is it
      > that it
      > > > could happen part way? The best I can come up with so far is
      some
      > > > kind of kinesthetic sensation that accompanies the intuition
      as to
      > > > the "orientation" of this dimension of consciousness. I am
      > interested
      > > > to hear what your and Matheesha's (or anyone else's) opionion
      on
      > > > this."
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In absorption there are long intervals during which the
      object
      > of
      > > > consciousness and the attendant cetasikas remain constant, and
      in
      > > > that regard the citta that knows nibbana seems to be
      equivalent to
      > > > jhana-citta, but the `letting-go' to enter jhana is like
      settling
      > > > into a warm bath, while the `letting-go' of phala-citta is
      more
      > like
      > > > entering free-fall. The profound `rotation' into phala-citta
      > seems to
      > > > related to the turning away from namarupa and turning towards
      > > > nibbana, but in terms of semantic approximations, it is also
      much
      > > > like popping through a tiny worm-hole into another universe. I
      > don't
      > > > know what else to say.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > With much metta,
      > > > > Culadasa
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
      > > > > Dear Culadasa,
      > > > >
      > > > > Thank you for sharing with us this very important experience.
      > > > This conversation is an extraordinary treasure. We step into
      > > > undocumented territory as far as official Theravada doctrine is
      > > > concerned. This is personally very reassuring for me; as I told
      > > > Matheesha, I was very doubtful about this. Just when I think my
      > > > practice is done surprising me, I get another curve ball.
      Clearly
      > if
      > > > two other people doing the same practice have come upon similar
      > > > experiences, this suggest that we are not lost in some
      > idiosyncratic
      > > > manifestation of our private journeys! This is very good new
      > indeed.
      > > > >
      > > > > You write:
      > > > > "In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory
      > > > reality was not present except for a distinct sensation of
      > > > separateness from the void, because of which absorption did not
      > > > occur. The form in which consciousness of ordinary reality
      > persisted
      > > > was the sense of being a separate observer, and of existing in
      > > > spatial locality. No other aspect remained."
      > > > >
      > > > > I find this description wonderfully clear, and particularly
      > > > noteworthy in that is describes what would appear to be a
      > > > straightforward experience of phala but without full
      absorption.
      > It
      > > > serves as a perfect case in point to raise the question:
      > > > > "Does phala have to be a fully absorptive experience?"
      > > > > Logically speaking, I do not see why it should have to be. If
      > > > consciousness can experience suññata absorptively(the nature of
      > > > the "experiencing" is another discussion) then why can't it be
      > > > experienced without full absorption, just like any other
      potential
      > > > object of jhana? It never occurred to me to ask myself this
      > question!
      > > > However, there is another question associated with this.
      > > > > What is actually happening with the "rotation, collapsing
      etc."?
      > > > > Keeping in mind that not every one uses this language or
      > > > experiences it in this way, there is frequently this
      experience
      > of a
      > > > temporally discrete and radical reorientation of
      consciousness. If
      > > > this process is not the supermundane equivalent of absorption
      > > > happening, then what is it? And more to the point, what is it
      > that it
      > > > could happen part way? The best I can come up with so far is
      some
      > > > kind of kinesthetic sensation that accompanies the intuition
      as to
      > > > the "orientation" of this dimension of consciousness. I am
      > interested
      > > > to hear what your and Matheesha's (or anyone else's) opionion
      on
      > this.
      > > > >
      > > > > I notice that these three are very similar, differing only in
      > > > that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to
      shift
      > but
      > > > there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention,
      and
      > > > both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence
      of
      > > > sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/
      phalacitta,
      > > > while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from
      > namarupa to
      > > > nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into
      > nibbana
      > > > does not occur.
      > > > >
      > > > > I believe you have summarized this very nicely. I am not
      certain
      > > > if this germane, but the noteworthy aspect of the experience I
      was
      > > > describing (beyond that of standard absorbed phala that had
      > preceded
      > > > this) was the complete coexistence in conscious awareness of
      two
      > > > radically different but, much to my surprise, compatible modes
      of
      > > > consciousness. I forgot to mention that I could consciously
      turn
      > > > attention outward, further into sensory experience, or more
      > towards
      > > > formlessness. This type of experience (there have been others
      > since,
      > > > the process evolves) seems to be very close to non-duality. Am
      I
      > > > wrong in assuming that this experience has a distinctly
      Mahayana
      > tone
      > > > to it? And that maybe the early Mahayanists were talking about
      > > > precisely this (among other things)? If this is the case, then
      we
      > > > have discovered among the three of us the living experience of
      > what
      > > > William was speaking of, how the early Mahayanists used the
      same
      > > > scriptures as we do in the Theravada today, and
      > > > > presumably practices based upon them.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now before we become too certain about all this, could there
      be
      > > > other explanations? I take note that all three of us have
      worked
      > with
      > > > jhana. In particular I was working formless jhanas just before
      > this
      > > > occurred. Could we be experiencing a manifestation of some
      > formless
      > > > nimitta continuous with our normal awareness? But the
      experience
      > of
      > > > the 3rd arupa jhana, nothingness, produces an experience very
      > similar
      > > > to what we are speaking of. I personally do not see how this
      would
      > > > reproduce the sense of profound letting go and the rotation
      > > > phenomena. But I feel the need to make some effort to be self
      > > > critical here.
      > > > > Now the next experience you describe is another thing
      entirely:
      > > > >
      > > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
      > objects
      > > > and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts
      it,
      > with
      > > > complete absorption;
      > > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
      > > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
      > times;
      > > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
      > > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
      > state
      > > > of absorption;
      > > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
      awareness
      > > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
      a
      > > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
      during
      > > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
      if I
      > > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
      > > > remembering a scene from a movie.
      > > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
      could
      > > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
      > continued.
      > > > >
      > > > > This to say the least very extraordinary Culadasa! This fits
      > > > neither my current understanding of phala or of jhana. The only
      > > > experience I have ever heard that resembles this would be from
      the
      > > > life of Ramana Maharshi. He described, that early in his life
      soon
      > > > after his realization (whatever that was) he would become
      > completely
      > > > absorbed in the same reality that he experienced continuously,
      and
      > > > sometime later he would "wake up" to find himself somewhere
      else.
      > > > > The experience you describe does not jive very well with the
      > > > Abhidhamma model of consciousness, but is compatible with the
      > model
      > > > of consciousness you put forward earlier on this board,
      wherein
      > you
      > > > described the senses and the mind as having each their own
      > > > simultaneously functioning sub-minds, and conscious attention
      as
      > > > seventh could move among them as needed. I wonder though, if
      your
      > > > conscious mind was absorbed in voidness, and your other
      subminds
      > > > were "running the show":
      > > > >
      > > > > § Were the body and the mind functioning competently,
      > > > performing tasks, thinking, talking acting? If so did others
      > perceive
      > > > you as "normal"?
      > > > > § Why doesn't this happen during normal jhana?
      > > > >
      > > > > The last question I want to ask you is what teachings exist
      in
      > > > your Tibetan background that might be useful in helping us to
      > > > understand these, especially the fourth experience you
      mention?
      > You
      > > > seem to be more comfortable than I am in trusting your own
      > experience
      > > > as teacher. I feel much less comfortable stepping outside the
      > > > boundaries of the accepted teachings of my Elders
      Nevertheless,
      > here
      > > > is my experience, and your and Matheesha's.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thank you again for sharing your experience,
      > > > >
      > > > > With metta,
      > > > > Daniel
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@>
      > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hello Daniel,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It is unfortunate that you cannot recall the writer who
      > discussed
      > > > this matter, and the sutta he referenced, as it might have been
      > > > helpful. But what I am discussing here is not a speculation
      based
      > on
      > > > an interpretation of scriptures. It is the other way around,
      it
      > is an
      > > > interpretation of experience for which the suttas may serve as
      a
      > > > guide and can perhaps help to avoid misinterpretation.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Yes, I am referring to personal experiences and yes, I am
      > > > comfortable sharing them here and comparing them with
      Matheesha
      > and
      > > > your related experiences.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You describe:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "a state of consciousness in which emptiness and sensory
      > > > awareness coexist... the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning
      > > > inside out" of consciousness that would normally lead to
      > absorption
      > > > into voidness begins, but does not complete itself."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have had a very similar experience occurring repeatedly
      > during
      > > > the last few days of a retreat. There was this difference,
      though,
      > > > between my experience and what you have described. Whereas you
      > have
      > > > said:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "... instead of the mind dissolving into its own
      > transparency, it
      > > > is as if consciousness rotates only half way and become stuck
      > > > with "half" experiencing sensory reality and "half"
      experiencing a
      > > > timeless spaceless transparent purity"
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory
      > reality
      > > > was not present except for a distinct sensation of
      separateness
      > from
      > > > the void, because of which absorption did not occur. The form
      in
      > > > which consciousness of ordinary reality persisted was the
      sense of
      > > > being a separate observer, and of existing in spatial
      locality. No
      > > > other aspect remained.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Matheesha describes:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "what feels like phalacitta overlapped during waking
      > > > consciousness. It feels like an internal turning away from the
      > > > senses - of conciousness established on nibbana, but in a
      > temporary
      > > > manner."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I notice that these three are very similar, differing only
      in
      > > > that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to
      shift
      > but
      > > > there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention,
      and
      > > > both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence
      of
      > > > sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/
      phalacitta,
      > > > while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from
      > namarupa to
      > > > nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into
      > nibbana
      > > > does not occur.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > There is a fourth kind of experience, one that I have had
      only
      > > > three times so far, all very recently, and which I had
      > specifically
      > > > in mind with that earlier posting. These experiences did not
      take
      > > > place in retreat but rather while engaged in normal
      activities. In
      > > > each case I was either actually contemplating some aspect of
      > dhamma
      > > > in the moment it occured, or else had been doing so immediately
      > > > beforehand. I don't know whether there is any significance to
      that
      > > > fact or not, since that is what I tend to be doing most of the
      > time
      > > > anyway. But these are the characteristics that are most
      > definitely of
      > > > significance:
      > > > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
      > objects
      > > > and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts
      it,
      > with
      > > > complete absorption;
      > > > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for
      several
      > > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
      > times;
      > > > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
      > > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
      > state
      > > > of absorption;
      > > > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
      > awareness
      > > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
      a
      > > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
      during
      > > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
      if I
      > > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
      > > > remembering a scene from a movie.
      > > > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
      could
      > > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
      > continued.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I have often wondered what the state of an Arahant's
      > > > consciousness would be like, and it is my opinion that all of
      > these
      > > > experiences, Daniel's, Matheesha's, and Culadasa's are strong
      > > > pointers towards the possibility of what that may be like.
      Leaving
      > > > aside my retreat experience, I can easily imagine that all
      three
      > of
      > > > these other experiences are representative of transcendental
      > states
      > > > that are sustainable in the `world', and so can account for
      how a
      > > > Buddha might dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in
      the
      > > > world.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You ask:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "… how do we find our way to understanding what such an
      > > > experience actually is apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal
      > > > preferences."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This is always the most important question, and all I can
      say
      > is
      > > > that subjectively the experience was unquestionably phala
      > samapatti,
      > > > spontaneous and brief though it was, and that the aftermath
      > verified
      > > > the experience as just that as well. I find the Thervada
      > tradition to
      > > > have very little to say about the higher Paths and
      Arahantship,
      > and
      > > > while the Mahayana discounts the Arahant as a lesser
      realization,
      > > > there are no shortage of references to a Buddha or a "fully
      > > > enlightened being" dwelling continuously in Nirvana while the
      > > > Nirmanakaya functions on this plane to teach and to guide the
      > rest of
      > > > us out of suffering.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Two last thoughts on the foregoing. Entirely without any
      > > > scholastic or philosophical justification, I have always
      > discounted
      > > > the Mahayana idea of the Arahant as a lesser realization, and
      have
      > > > likewise ignored any Theravadin suggestions that the Arahant
      might
      > > > represent an intermediate stage between the Anagamin and
      > Buddhahood.
      > > > In my personal cosmology an Arahant = a Buddha, and a Buddha
      is an
      > > > Arahant, and the historical Buddha was a Sammasambuddha
      endowed
      > with
      > > > certain special abilities vis-a-vis teaching the rest of us,
      but
      > does
      > > > not otherwise represent a higher level of spiritual
      attainment. I
      > am
      > > > open to being educated on this point, and if I can be made to
      > clearly
      > > > understand the difference I might modify the language I have
      used
      > in
      > > > the preceding paragraphs. But the bottom line is an aspiration
      to
      > > > Buddhahood, whether that is the same as Arahant or not, and it
      > only
      > > > seems reasonable to me that a Buddha has direct experience of
      > > > Ultimate Reality, panna, even while the fleshly
      > > > > > corpse continues to be animated for the benefit of all
      > sentient
      > > > beings.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I am in your debt and in your service.
      > > > > > Culadasa
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
      > > > > > Dear Culadasa,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I recall reading years ago a Theravada writer that put
      forth
      > the
      > > > same position you propose, that the phala cittas of the arhant
      > could
      > > > be present during sensory consciousness. I do not remember that
      > > > author's name. He quoted as his authority a sutta passage that
      > > > mentioned the consciousness of the arhant as being bright and
      > > > limitless, or something like that. I am sorry for being so
      vague
      > but
      > > > I no longer remember where to find this information. At any
      rate
      > you
      > > > said:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
      > > > Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana
      as
      > his
      > > > or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
      > > > recently,"
      > > > > >
      > > > > > What is it that makes you so certain now? If you are
      > referring to
      > > > a personal experience, would you feel comfortable sharing it
      here.
      > > > You said:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of
      it
      > > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
      unexpectedly
      > for
      > > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
      ordinary
      > > > activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and
      mind
      > > > continue to function completely normally to all outward
      > appearances.
      > > > After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a
      memory
      > > > record such that the events that occurred on the sense plane
      > during
      > > > the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
      > > > an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of
      > what
      > > > the state of the Arahat may be like."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In the last few years I have occasionally experienced a
      state
      > of
      > > > consciousness in which emptiness and sensory awareness
      coexist. I
      > am
      > > > not however so confident as to call this a type of phala. To
      > describe
      > > > it briefly, the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning inside
      > out" of
      > > > consciousness that would normally lead to absorption into
      voidness
      > > > begins, but does not complete itself. So instead of the mind
      > > > dissolving into its own transparency, it is as if consciousness
      > > > rotates only half way and become stuck with "half" experiencing
      > > > sensory reality and "half" experiencing a timeless spaceless
      > > > transparent purity. I do remember the first time this happened,
      > > > the "sensory" part of "me" was surprised and really did feel
      as
      > if I
      > > > had gotten stuck. This event of course makes samsaric reality
      > appear
      > > > to be something akin to a film projection on the surface of
      soap
      > > > bubble. The same basic state comes from time to time, and can
      > vary as
      > > > to its "flavor" ie. more or less tranquility, more or
      > > > > > less radiance, more or less happiness etc.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Having said all this I must also say that at the time I
      had
      > been
      > > > doing two months of samatha practice and several weeks with the
      > > > nimittas of the formless jhanas just prior to the sathipathana
      > > > practice that lead to this experience. So was this just a
      > > > samatha "thang" some after affects of staring into the
      > nothingness of
      > > > the 3rd arupa jhana nimitta? Or was it an insight thing, or
      just
      > one
      > > > of the many interesting and uncatalogued by products of deep
      > > > practice? I don't know of anyone who can give an answer to this
      > > > question. It just is what it is, however, amongst those things
      > that
      > > > it is, it is impermanent, and therefore under suspicion. At
      least
      > for
      > > > now J
      > > > > >
      > > > > > So why am I saying all this? Because the developed mind is
      > > > capable of so many interesting states. If someone were having
      an
      > > > experience that would qualify to fit the criteria for the one
      you
      > are
      > > > mentioning:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of
      it
      > > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
      unexpectedly
      > for
      > > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
      ordinary
      > > > activities"
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Well, how would we know? I am not saying it is not so, but
      > how do
      > > > we find our way to understanding what such an experience
      actually
      > is
      > > > apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal preferences. Perhaps
      you
      > > > have Vajrayana or Mahayana teachings to help you with
      > understanding
      > > > such things, but as far as I know, the Theravada says nothing
      > about
      > > > this officially and I am unaware of any oral tradition that
      > speaks of
      > > > this.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thank your for listening,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Daniel B.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@
      > wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hello Daniel,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > My conversation with Dhammanando was meant to be open to
      > > > everyone, so thank you for joining in. My reply will only
      address
      > > > single point as I am 'on the road' at the moment, and I hope
      to be
      > > > able to respond to other of your comments in the next few days.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > As for the ice and water metaphor, it serves in several
      > ways.
      > > > One of which is that ice and water are both H2O, and in that
      same
      > > > way, consciousness is consciousness, but there is a shift to a
      > > > profoundly different state of consciousness at magga-phala and
      > phala
      > > > samapatti just as there is a shift in state from water to ice.
      > They
      > > > are the same, yet completely different at the same time.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The ordinary consciousness of the sotapan or the
      sakadagami
      > or
      > > > even anagami is still vinnana, it still takes nama and rupa as
      its
      > > > objects. Vinnana is vinnana, "although with [more or] less
      force
      > or
      > > > with more [or less] transparency." But the consciousness at
      magga-
      > > > phala and phala samapatti is distinctly different, it is not
      > vinnana
      > > > (and some have suggested that panna might be the better word
      to
      > use
      > > > for this consciousness), and it does not take nama and rupa as
      > > > object.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > And so you say "Even an arhant in his or her daily
      sensory
      > > > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in
      the
      > > > magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-
      phala
      > and
      > > > phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
      absorbed
      > in
      > > > Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not
      compatible
      > with
      > > > sensory or bodily functioning." (I notice you have qualified
      this
      > > > statement by saying "magga-phala or phala experiences of the
      lower
      > > > paths" and I wonder whether you mean by that all three lower
      > paths as
      > > > compared to the Arahant, or only the first two, because this
      does
      > > > bear somewhat on the issue I am trying to clarify here with
      > regard to
      > > > the consciousness of an Arahant.)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > The difficulty is, as you say, that magga-phala and phala
      > > > samapatti are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
      > absorbed
      > > > in sunnata, and so
      > > > > > > - since it is the very fact that the consciousness that
      > arises
      > > > in magga-phala and phala samapatti directly knows sunnata that
      > > > distinguishes it from the ordinary consciousness called
      vinnana
      > (that
      > > > takes materiality and mentality as its object and is thus
      > imprisoned
      > > > by it), and furthermore;
      > > > > > > - since the defining characteristic of the jhanic state
      is
      > that
      > > > the consciousness is completely withdrawn from anything other
      than
      > > > the specific object of jhana,
      > > > > > > it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
      > > > Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana
      as
      > his
      > > > or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
      > > > recently, although I have from time to time encountered
      > suggestions
      > > > to the contrary.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > So at this point I would like to expand the metaphor of
      > water
      > > > and ice to include the dimension of temperature. There can be
      > > > different degrees within a single state. Water can exist over
      a
      > great
      > > > range of temperatures and still remain water, and so can ice
      > exist at
      > > > a great range of temperatures while still remaining ice. The
      same
      > > > appears to be true of these mind states.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > As we know, there is a very definite difference between
      the
      > > > ordinary consciousness, the vinnana of the non-ariyan and the
      > > > sotapan, sakadagami, or anagami, and likewise there is a
      > difference
      > > > in the vinnana of these lower path stages as compared to each
      > other.
      > > > This corresponds to temperature in the metaphore. I am
      suggesting
      > > > that perhaps there is also a similar difference in the
      > consciousness
      > > > that knows nibanna, the phala samapatti consciousness of the
      > Arahant
      > > > as compared to that of the lower Paths, and it is such that it
      > > > permits a Buddha to dwell in nibbana while continuing to
      function
      > in
      > > > the world.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > There is an experience some have had, and you may know
      of it
      > > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
      unexpectedly
      > for
      > > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
      ordinary
      > > > activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and
      mind
      > > > continue to function completely normally to all outward
      > appearances.
      > > > After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a
      memory
      > > > record such that the events that occured on the sense plane
      during
      > > > the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
      > > > an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of
      > what
      > > > the state of the Arahat may be like. As you may notice upon
      > > > reflection, the one who dwells in nibbana while functioning in
      the
      > > > world would be absolutely free of any vestige of attachment to
      a
      > > > separate existence of any kind, on any plane.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Your shared thoughts nourish my understanding. Thank
      you. I
      > > > hope that I can offer you something of some value in return.
      > > > > > > Culadasa
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Dear Culadasa,
      > > > > > > I hope you don't mind if I insert myself into your
      > conversation
      > > > with the Ven. Dhammadhino. As always your posts, being of
      > > > considerable weightiness, require a serious response. So I
      will
      > try
      > > > to share my reflections with you regarding some of your
      points. I
      > > > find these back-and-forths to be both clarifying and
      edifiying.
      > Thank
      > > > you so much for taking the time and the trouble.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "I suppose in the back of my mind I'd always taken the
      > > > assertion of 7 years or less to Arhantship to be somewhat
      > hyperbolic."
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > So did I until I met Taungpulu Sayadaw. I learned from
      > hanging
      > > > with him, that there is a whole other dimension of help that a
      > truly
      > > > great yogi can give. I am not sure how to explain it, whether
      it
      > is a
      > > > type of psychic power, or a hugely expanded subtle body, or
      > whatever,
      > > > but there is a very palpable power that extents around a being
      of
      > > > great realization that supports the yogi from within by
      permeating
      > > > his entire being and bringing stillness, peace and power into
      the
      > > > disciples mind, and drawing him in the right direction, like
      an
      > inner
      > > > magnet. When you practice within range of this aura, you find
      > > > yourself capable of so much more than you would otherwise.
      Just
      > being
      > > > in the presence of such a being is a transformational growth
      > > > experience. I remember that people who know noting about
      > meditation
      > > > or Buddhism would sometimes come to see Taungpulu, and sitting
      in
      > > > silence they would begin to weep so deep and powerful was the
      > > > stillness and the love that radiated around him. Dipa
      > > > > > > Ma, who spoke no English, I remember would look at me
      with
      > > > great love and simply reach into my mind and adjust my
      > consciousness
      > > > to make whatever trouble I was having in my practice
      disappear. If
      > > > these teachers had that kind of power, I cannot even imagine
      what
      > it
      > > > must have been like to sit in the presence of the Buddha. Seen
      in
      > > > this way, seven years although exceptional become believable.
      > > > Interestingly, along these lines, you might remember how the
      > suttas
      > > > often say that such and such a bhikkhu attains to final
      > knowledge "in
      > > > no long time." The commentaries say that "no long time" means
      > within
      > > > 12 years.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > At any rate, there are many "unofficial truths" in the
      > living
      > > > tradition of the Theravada that cannot be justified in the
      suttas
      > or
      > > > the commentaries. Every one knows them, but they don't talk
      about
      > > > them. For example there is an entire oral tradition about such
      > things
      > > > as the progress of insight, teaching by balancing the five
      > > > controlling faculties, finer points of jhana training etc.
      that
      > does
      > > > not exist in writing anywhere.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "And so, if I infer correctly with regard to the
      > consciousness
      > > > of an Arahant, the mindfulness of the Arahant is, at all
      times, of
      > > > one kind with that of the Stream Entrant, Once-Returner, and
      Non-
      > > > Returner during their experience of magga and phala."
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I think I see what you are trying to do with the ice and
      > water
      > > > metaphor: so show how mindfulness, and consciousness with the
      > other
      > > > factors evolves to become "denser" as we progress from stage
      to
      > stage
      > > > such that what was exceptional before now becomes natural. I
      do
      > agree
      > > > with this in a general way. For example I carry within myself
      a
      > more
      > > > or less constant level of awareness of the three signs of
      being
      > all
      > > > day long, that does not require effort. The Dhamma to some
      extent
      > has
      > > > become part of me in a way that would not have been possible
      > twenty
      > > > years ago. However, it still lacks the intensity and clarity
      that
      > > > come when samadhi and viriya are developed by stronger
      continuity
      > of
      > > > practice. Now as to what you stated above, if by magga you
      mean
      > path
      > > > development, and by phala you mean the result of that then I
      would
      > > > agree. However, if you are using these words in the
      commentarial
      > > > sense of magga-phala and phala, then I don't see it. Even an
      > arhant
      > > > in his or her daily sensory
      > > > > > > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is
      present
      > in
      > > > the magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-
      > phala
      > > > and phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
      > absorbed
      > > > in Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not
      compatible
      > > > with sensory or bodily functioning.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter
      three
      > when
      > > > they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling in
      > > > fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to
      awakening
      > who
      > > > has yet to achieve either."
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Perhaps this is true as regards to insight in a general
      way
      > as
      > > > I described my own experience above, but even the sotapan or
      the
      > > > sakadagami who has lost the concentration of retreat or
      regular
      > daily
      > > > practice will experience mundane mind states in a more or less
      > > > ordinary way, although with less force or with more
      transparency.
      > But
      > > > still nothing close to the shift experienced in deep retreat
      > practice
      > > > by those without attainments. As best as I understand this, the
      > > > really powerful shift in consciousness comes with the
      > internalization
      > > > of jhanic factors that the yogi must accomplish to attain the
      > path of
      > > > anagami. Here is a sutta that helps to illustrate my meaning:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > 3. "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you
      > > > internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and
      > > > delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state
      already
      > > > abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home
      life,
      > > > you would not be enjoying sensual plea­sures. It is
      because
      > that
      > > > state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the
      > home
      > > > life and enjoying sensual pleasures.
      > > > > > > 4. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it
      > > > actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide
      > little
      > > > gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great
      is
      > the
      > > > dan­ger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the
      > > > rapture and pleasure that are apart from sen­sual
      pleasures,
      > > > apart from unwholesome states,or to something more peaceful
      than
      > > > that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when
      a
      > > > noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper
      > wisdom
      > > > how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much
      > suffering,
      > > > and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he
      > attains
      > > > to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual
      pleasures,
      > > > apart form unwholesome states, or to soething more peaceful
      than
      > > > that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures.
      > > > > > > Notes: Mahanama was a sakadagami who had long ago
      attained
      > the
      > > > path of once returner. He was puzzled as to why unwholesome
      states
      > > > sill appeared in his mind. In his case the chief defilement
      seems
      > to
      > > > have been desire for sensual pleasures. This sutta
      demonstrates
      > how
      > > > noble disciples can have misunderstandings as to their
      > attainments.
      > > > It also demonstrates how sakadagamis do not nec­essarily
      have
      > > > even the lower jhanas, and how the Buddha recommended jhana
      > training
      > > > to house­holders interested in attaining the higher paths
      and
      > > > fruits. It also is suggestive of the importance of jhana
      training
      > for
      > > > some people in the attainment of the path of anagami.
      > > > > > > Culadukkhakhandha Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the
      Mass
      > of
      > > > Suffering; MN 14:3-4
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
      > > > contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the
      flesh;
      > the
      > > > mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior,
      > surpassed
      > > > or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated
      or
      > not
      > > > liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
      > > > formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening;
      the
      > > > truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold
      any
      > > > doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete
      method
      > for
      > > > the attainment of Arhantship. "
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I am sure that we can agree that these contemplations are
      > > > exactly the same as those outlined in the suttas for the
      practice
      > of
      > > > samatha-vipassana that the Buddha specifically recommends for
      the
      > > > attainment of the higher paths. I do not have one on hand, but
      the
      > > > typical pattern as put forth in the suttas is that the yogi
      > emerges
      > > > from the jhana, and then observes the mental factors present
      and
      > > > watches as they pass away. He then goes up to the next higher
      > jhana
      > > > and repeats the process and so forth. Here is another quote
      from
      > the
      > > > suttas, one of my favorites that describes the process of
      samatha-
      > > > vipassana in a way that specifically aims at the transition
      from
      > > > sakadagami to anagami, and interestingly includes as objects of
      > > > mindfulness all the five aggregates. What this means for me is
      > that
      > > > the entire satipathana process remains helpful to the yogi
      > developing
      > > > the path to anagami, only he is doing so with jhana as its
      basis.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > 9."And what, Ananda, is the path, the way to the
      abandoning
      > of
      > > > the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from objects of
      > > > attachment, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the
      > > > com­plete tranquilization of bodily inertia, quite
      secluded
      > from
      > > > sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu
      > enters
      > > > upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by
      > applied
      > > > and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of
      > seclusion.
      > > > > > > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling,
      > perception,
      > > > formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as
      > impermanent,
      > > > as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a
      calamity,
      > a
      > > > an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, and as
      not
      > self.
      > > > He turns his mind away from hose states, and directs it toward
      the
      > > > deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the
      > > > sub­lime, that is, the stilling of all formation, the
      > > > relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
      > > > dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. Standing upon that, he attains
      the
      > > > destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the
      > destruction
      > > > of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhmma, that
      > > > delight in the Dhamma, with the destruction of the five lower
      > fetters
      > > > he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure
      Abodes
      > and
      > > > there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that
      world.
      > > > This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower
      > > > > > > fetters.
      > > > > > > Note: This is repeated for each of the eight jhanas.
      > > > > > > Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta: The Greater Discourse to
      Malunkya;
      > MN
      > > > 64:9
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > And I don't mean just in the West. This has been going
      on
      > for a
      > > > very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of the
      world.
      > The
      > > > result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the ignorant,
      > and we
      > > > are like the blind leading the blind. I have found a lot of
      > nonsense
      > > > as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and Tika of the Theravada
      and
      > the
      > > > same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-Tibetan tradition
      as
      > > > well.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Don't even get me going on this one! This is indeed a
      > terrible
      > > > situation, and one of the very best reasons we have to get
      > the "good
      > > > stuff" down in writing and publish it publicly. For this
      reason I
      > am
      > > > writing my book (slowly I admit) and so are you I believe. But
      we
      > > > really need to take the core of practical teaching out of the
      > closet
      > > > of secrecy that allows for all this nonsense to develop. Things
      > > > fester in the dark. Many people erroneously believe that there
      is
      > no
      > > > secret teaching in Theravada Buddhism. This is not true. Why
      for
      > > > example is the Mahasi teacher's manual not published, but
      passed
      > on
      > > > in secrecy? Every Theravada lineage that I have ever known has
      the
      > > > same attitude of secrecy and communication on "need to know
      basis
      > > > only." This encourages student dependency, creates a better
      market
      > > > for teachers, allows for all sorts of misunderstanding and
      > > > distortions of the teaching, and puts the practical Dhamma at
      > risk of
      > > > being lost in the world. I find it all the more
      > > > > > > appalling in that many Theravada teachers pretend that
      there
      > > > are no secret teachings in this tradition. This is usually
      said
      > as a
      > > > deprecating reference to Hindu or Tibetan teachers that have
      > secret
      > > > teachings. At least these traditions are honest about it!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who
      > don't
      > > > know what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly
      growing
      > > > number of people with genuine realization who don't know how
      to
      > teach
      > > > others what they have learned themselves.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > How sad and how true. I believe that the best way around
      > this
      > > > is to publish our best understanding of both practice and
      teaching
      > > > processes. The more substantial teachings will withstand the
      test
      > of
      > > > time, and time will reveal those who really know their stuff.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks for your patience, may you be happy, healthy and
      > safe!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Daniel Boutemy
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@
      > wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hello Venerable Dhammanando,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Thank you very much for clarifying this. It is very
      > helpful.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > This confirms Daniel's original attempt at translating
      > this
      > > > passage, and explains also what the Atthakatha excerpt that he
      > > > located was indicating. Since your knowledge of Pali and
      access to
      > > > Pali language resources appears to be so much better than
      ours,
      > can
      > > > you please tell us more about 'sati' as a form of the verb 'to
      > be'?
      > > > Also, do you happen to know the meaning of the
      word 'aparikkhine'
      > > > that is used in the Atthakatha? I had thought it meant
      something
      > like
      > > > observation, or examination, but cannot locate it in any
      > dictionary,
      > > > and given that sati as used here is not mindfulness, that
      meaning
      > no
      > > > longer makes much sense either.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I would like to share with all of you where I have
      gone
      > with
      > > > this since first posting my query. It began with an error of
      > > > translation on my part because I had neither encountered 'añña'
      > > > before in its meaning of 'perfect knowledge', and so mistook
      it
      > for
      > > > its much more common usage as a disjunctive, nor was I aware
      of
      > this
      > > > other meaning of 'sati'. But it set in motion a process that
      has
      > been
      > > > productive of a deeper understanding and appreciation of the
      > sutta.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Although I'd never reflected upon it at any length, I
      > suppose
      > > > in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion of 7
      years
      > or
      > > > less to Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic. I think Blake
      may
      > have
      > > > expressed the thoughts of many of us when he asked, "Did the
      > > > attainments in the suttas get exaggerated over the years, or
      are
      > we
      > > > now doing something wrong in our practice?" And then also, it
      > seems
      > > > that I had mostly thought of the practices of the
      > > > Mahasattipatthanasutta in terms of the lower path challenges
      and
      > > > attainments anyway, and of course one only sees what one looks
      at!
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > But William's comments planted a thorn in my mind such
      > that I
      > > > kept returning to this issue, trying to penetrate this mystery
      a
      > > > little more deeply. It is indeed this thing that we call
      > mindfulness,
      > > > and mindfulness alone, that is of the essence of awakening at
      > every
      > > > stage of the Path. And by the way, William, it was not at all
      my
      > > > intention to suggest that the mindfulness of the Stream-
      Enterer is
      > > > the ultimate development of mindfulness, because this is quite
      > > > obviously not so. It was a clumsy attempt on my part to
      formulate
      > a
      > > > statement of alternatives at the level of 2nd Path versus 3rd
      Path
      > > > while assuming the word sati had been used in the sutta to mean
      > > > mindfulness. 'Fully developed' was intended to apply very
      > > > specifically to the quality of mindfulness of the Once-
      Returner.
      > But
      > > > I would like to point out that, while the mindfulness of the
      > Arhant
      > > > is different from the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer, it is
      > also
      > > > very much the same. Ice is ice at -10 C or at -100 C,
      > > > > although
      > > > > > > > it is also different at those two temperatures. The
      > > > mindfulness that takes nibbana as object is as different from
      the
      > > > mindfulness that takes rupa, sankhara and namarupa as object,
      as
      > ice
      > > > is different from water. I find the phase change of matter to
      > provide
      > > > a good metaphor for that difference. And so, if I infer
      correctly
      > > > with regard to the consciousness of an Arahant, the
      mindfulness of
      > > > the Arahant is, at all times, of one kind with that of the
      Stream
      > > > Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner during their
      experience
      > of
      > > > magga and phala. On the other hand, the mindfulness of these
      > latter
      > > > three when they are experiencing neither path attainment nor
      > dwelling
      > > > in fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to
      > awakening
      > > > who has yet to achieve either. And so just as either ice or
      water
      > can
      > > > exist over a range of temperatures, water is still water and
      ice
      > is
      > > > still ice.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > This metaphor, as with all metaphors, falls down at
      some
      > > > point. But when I returned to the Mahasatipatthanasutta to
      seek
      > the
      > > > answer within the source of the question, the obvious began to
      > leap
      > > > out at me. The contemplations as perfomed by the non-ariyan
      > aspirant
      > > > to Stream-Entry take one form. After first path, they take
      > another,
      > > > and so on. Some of these contemplations are not even available
      to
      > the
      > > > practitioner who has yet to attain first path, except perhaps
      in a
      > > > sort of temporary, facsimile form, if they happen to be among
      the
      > few
      > > > who have a natural talent for jhana. The contemplation of the
      > mind as
      > > > liberated or not liberated, the contemplation of the truth of
      > > > cessation, and the contemplation of right concentration, for
      > example.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are
      the
      > > > contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the
      flesh;
      > the
      > > > mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior,
      > surpassed
      > > > or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated
      or
      > not
      > > > liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
      > > > formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening;
      the
      > > > truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold
      any
      > > > doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete
      method
      > for
      > > > the attainment of Arhantship.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > There is a recursive description in this sutta of right
      > > > mindfulness as the very contents of this sutta, which before I
      had
      > > > thought of as a quaint curiousity, but now I understand it to
      be a
      > > > brilliant instruction. Having practiced these four
      applications of
      > > > mindfulness to the point of path and fruition, one returns to
      it
      > > > again and experiences it in a completely new way. Not to be
      trite,
      > > > but rather to acknowledge a great truth:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > "And the end of all our searching shall be to return
      to
      > the
      > > > place where we started and know i<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    • matheesha
      Hi Allan, ... re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with determinations,
      Message 101 of 101 , Feb 24, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Allan,

        > Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
        re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
        able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
        determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
        a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
        the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
        manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
        Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
        Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
        phala appears to support the integration.

        Thank you for that response. My understanding of 'phala' has
        deepened as a result of this group, various other kalyanamittas and
        my own pondering. The dhamma is indeed intricately deep and amazing.
        The pitfals are equally mezmerising!

        The fruit of the path (phala) is indeed the fruit of dispassion and
        letting go. It is the bliss which arises when vijja/wisdom arisen
        through the practice is present. It is the shedding of suffering (as
        well).

        The state that we call 'phala' is indeed the door to nibbana, but
        not nibbana itself. The prescence of vijja leans all fabrications
        towards their fading away (nirodha), like the powerful gravity of a
        blackhole sucking all matter towards itself, into extinction. We can
        see the rare and unusual event of the blackhole exerting it's
        influence on everything around it, but we can never know what
        happens afterwards. The rare and unusual event is 'phala'.

        However not even vijja exists in nibbana.

        It itself will have to wiped out. Hence nibbana is never a result of
        something. It is simply is what is(n't), when everything ceases.

        I used to think the complete absence of avijja (and the presence of
        vijja) meant that nibbana, in the sense of escape from the whole
        field of perception, prevailed. But it is now clear that for vijja
        to prevail, the skandas must prevail, because it is one of the
        skandas. Hence arahanths dont vanish into nothingness or die the
        moment they become enlightened (!), but rather continue in a state
        of incredible letting go and renunciation. At their deaths (skanda
        parinirvana) there is nothing to give rise to anything further.

        The state of phala is very important in that it explains the paticca
        samuppada as well. It is significant that the buddha was
        contemplating the PS soon after a week of 'the bliss of
        enlightenment' - possibly an arahath phala samapatti.

        When there is no avijja and when there is vijja in the forefront of
        the mind, there is no craving and intentions (sankhara) based on
        craving. This means there is no consciousness and the whole string
        of perception based on craving and avijja. Such paths of thought
        usually end up with attachment (upadana) which gives rise to
        further 'arising'. We often see this when something we cling to
        arise seemingly out of the blue in our minds. This arising seems to
        be bhava - the arising of a bundle of 5 aggregates- if, it arose in
        another body would contitute a coming into existence of
        psychophysical phenomena of life. Such things are bound to end in
        tears!

        Phala appears when the insights built upon one another reach their
        peak. It is a profound state of letting go -the process starting in
        the first instance when revulsion (nibbida) manifests when remnant
        craving meets vijja and conflict reuslts. Then the craving is
        defeated and viraga/dispassion manifests. Then at even higher stages
        of insight nirodha apears- fading away. These are the terms the
        Buddha commonly used in the suttas to bescribe the process of
        insight, compared to the terms of the 7 purifications, which seems
        to be a favourite of ven. Mahakaccayana (I came across him using
        these terms twice now, in the Pali!). Anyway, the end stage of the
        vipassana process manifests in the turning back of PS. The fading
        away of ignorance leads to fading away of ..... and so on.

        Anyway, that's it for me for the time being.

        If anyone like to take a crack at explaining the 4 types of upadana
        and how they lead to becoming, I would like to hear from you. I am
        considering giving a talk on the PS soon so I would value your input.

        with metta

        Matheesha











        --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Daniel, and Matheesha-
        > I apologize for the delay in responding to your question(s), but
        my travel intervened. I am now finally back at home for at least 5
        months.
        >
        > Daniel, please, do not feel it a necessity to respond, or do so
        if or when time permits. I believe you are again in semester and
        probably very busy with your studies.
        >
        > Truly appreciate your asking for clarification when re my use of
        the terms wisdom, knowledge, and insight (Insight).
        >
        > Generally...what I mean when I use the term `knowledge' I mean
        it to mean cognitive knowing. 'Wisdom' is the intuitive
        understanding of non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion in its
        various stages throughout our meditations, and `insight' (small i)
        as any number on cognitive or intuitive understandings along the
        Path of Purification to Path. 'Insight', with a capital I, is for
        Path access/Insight.
        >
        > Re your #2 (see below) question/statement. You make clear what I
        was pointing towards. It is my belief that in order to access the
        > Insight(s) we have been discussing the pre-requisite insights
        and or Path Insights must be realized and integrated into the mind
        stream. There is as you clearly point out, more ways than one for
        this process to arise. (There is dry and not dry vipassana to name
        just two.) Regardless of what way we access Insight it is likely
        that the necessary requisites will have to be established, and this
        is never more important than for first Path Insight. After Sotapanna
        the path towards the next deep Insight appears to become almost
        automatic with the nyanas appearing as they must and the yogi's job
        simply becomes one in which the "gears" need to be machined to a
        very smooth and honed understanding. Each Insight demands deeper and
        subtler intuitive understanding of the characteristics of non-greed,
        non-aversion, and non-self. Each Insight demands a finer tuning, a
        finer grinding, a finer lifting.
        >
        > I too agree with you, Daniel. I agree that the cognitive
        understanding or mental states that arise as a result of a
        particular insight along the Path of Purification does not have the
        same importance as the developmental process that is part of and
        which it is built upon. Their real real importance is their linking
        with other insights. This linking or as you put it, "shifting
        gears", leads the yogi towards maggaphala.
        >
        > This is again especially true for First Path when the yogi can
        become easily distracted. It is easy and common for a yogi to get
        preoccupied with the manifestation, the pleasantness or
        unpleasantness of a particular insight, and get caught in reaction.
        >
        >
        > In order for the attenuation of greed, hatred and delusion to
        become mature and intuitive, and become harmonious with whichever
        Path, the yogi may have to go again and again through some of the
        insights for the 'grinding up or down' to take root. Until the yogi
        is sufficiently balanced in insight the next Insight will not arise.
        >
        > Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
        re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
        able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
        determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
        a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
        the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
        manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
        Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
        Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
        phala appears to support the integration.
        >
        > Thank you all for reading this attempt at clarification.
        >
        > I am available to try and discuss any misunderstanding that I
        may have, and or try to make clear where I have been unclear.
        >
        > metta to us all! allan
        >
        > Dear Allan,
        > Thank you for your post, your support and your clarifications.
        I have one question, and one comment.
        > 1/ You have mentioned the difference between knowledge, wisdom
        and insight. Without concern for Pali terms, could you clarify what
        you experience to be the differences?
        > 2/ Your write: It appears that the state I'm calling 'not' the
        yogi MUST have the requisites for it to arise in the mind stream.
        Equanimity about Formations must be sufficiently mature, there must
        also be sufficient understanding of all the insights that precedes
        EAF. (The above is a narrow point of view. It arises from the school
        that I train in. It is clear that there are other ways to reach this
        quality of mind.)
        > I would be firmer on this point. At present, I do not believe
        that there is any way, other than by the progress of insight for the
        mind to develop so as to access emptiness. Of course, this progress
        can appear quite differently under different circumstances. For
        example, Ven Pemasiri used to say for that for yogis who have
        already experienced magga-phala, consciousness can go from Knowledge
        of Arising and Passing Away to Knowledge of Equanimity Towards
        Formation in a single breath. For those who have development in a
        previous life, the nyanas can be very subtle and spontaneous,
        occuring amongst daily activities and magga-phala can come
        spontaneously at the slightest hint of truth. And then of course we
        have jhana yogis who have so much mental development already, that
        their journey through the stages of insight might be very fast, and
        not experienced with all the symptoms of bare insight. There might
        be other variation as well. My own insight (wisdom/knowledge ?) is
        > that the essence of the progress of insight is actually something
        subtle, somewhat like shifting gears, as the relatioship between
        consciousness and object changes, and consciousness is "tuned"
        differently. The insights spoken of for each stage are actually
        secondary to this readjustment process, and actually result from
        these shifts, and many of the gross symptoms experienced in bare
        insight training are actually tertiary manifestations.
        > "...the state I'm calling 'not' the yogi MUST have the
        requisites for it to arise in the mind stream." Indeed. According to
        the commentaries, the 37 states pertaining to enlightenment must all
        be fulfilled for Path and Fruit to arise: noble eightfold path, five
        controlling faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of
        enlightenment, the four great efforts, the four noble truths, the
        four roads to power, and the four foundations of mindfulness. People
        often underestimate just how much a sotapan has achieved! They may
        not developed to perfection, or permanently fixed in development
        but still, what a journey!
        > With metta,
        > Daniel
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
        >
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