- Hello All,
Here are some sutta quotes I came across which seems to
describe 'phala'. Maybe we should use the correct word - or viraga
sanna or nirodha sanna so that these hidden dhammas will manifest
clearly again.
with metta
Matheesha
6. Samàdhisuttaü Ý Concentration
6. Then venerable ânanda approached The Blessed One ... re ... and
said to The Blessed One:
Venerable sir, is there a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive.?"
ânanda, there is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive"
Venerable sir, what is that concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive?"
Here, ânanda, the bhikkhu is perceptive thus: This is peaceful, this
is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up
of all endearments, destruction of craving, disenchantment,
cessation and extinction. ânanda, in this manner, there is that
concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in which, in earth he has no
perceptions of earth, in water he has no perceptions of water, in
fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air he has no perceptions of
air, in the sphere of space, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
space, in the sphere of consciousness, he has no perceptions of the
sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere
of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
of the other world. Yet he is perceptive.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanipata/001-anisamsavaggo-e.html
[6] ..."And what is the perception of dispassion? There is the case
where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
tree, or to an empty building reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
is exquisite the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, Unbinding.'
This is called the perception of dispassion.
[7] "And what is the perception of cessation? There is the case
where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a
tree, or to an empty building reflects thus: 'This is peace, this
is exquisite the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment
of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.'
This is called the perception of cessation.
-http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html
7. Sàriputtasuttaü Ý Venerable Sriputta
7. Venerable ânanda approached venerable Sàriputta, exchanged
friendly greetings, sat on a side and said:
ßFriend, Sàriputta, is there a concentration, to the bhikkhu,
abiding in which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water
he has no perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of
fire, in air he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of
consciousness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness,
in the sphere of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of
nothingness, in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions, he has no perceptions of the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, he has no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, he has no perceptions
of the other world. Yet he is perceptive?"
`Friend, ânanda, there is a concentration to the bhikkhu, abiding in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, in water he has no
perceptions of water, in fire he has no perceptions of fire, in air
he has no perceptions of air, in the sphere of space, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of space, in the sphere of consciousness,
he has no perceptions of the sphere of consciousness, in the sphere
of nothingness, he has no perceptions of the sphere of nothingness,
in the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions, he has no
perceptions of the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-
perceptions. In this world, he has no perceptions of this world. In
the other world, he has no perceptions of the other world. Yet he is
perceptive.
ßFriend, Sàriputta, how is that concentration to the bhikkhu, in
which, in earth he has no perceptions of earth, ... re ... Yet he is
perceptive?"
ß Friend, ânanda, once I was abiding in this same dark forest in
Sàvatthi and abode in that concentration. Then in earth I had no
perceptions of earth, in water I had no perceptions of water, in
fire I had no perceptions of fire, in air I had no perceptions of
air, in the sphere of space, I had no perceptions of the sphere of
space, in the sphere of consciousness, I had no perceptions of the
sphere of consciousness, in the sphere of nothingness, I had no
perceptions of the sphere of nothingness, in the sphere of neither
perceptions nor non-perceptions, I had no perceptions of the sphere
of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions. In this world, I had no
perceptions of this world. In the other world, I had no perceptions
of the other world. Yet I was perceptive.
ßFriend, Sàriputta, of what were you perceptive at the time?"
ßFriend, ânanda, the perception, `Cessation of being is extinction.'
arose and faded in me with knowledge. Friend, like at the edge of a
potsherd the splinters rise and fade with knowledge. In the same
manner the perception, `cessation of being is extinction' arose and
faded in me. Friend, at that time I was of the perception,
`Cessation of being is extinction.'û
with metta
Matheesha
--- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@...>
wrote:>
time,
> Hi Daniel,
>
> I will look up 'non-manifesting consciousness' when I have the
> unfortunately my consciousness is very much manifesting these days!
you.
>
> You mentioned that in your practice the phalasmapatti was an
> important part in progressing higher, if I havent misunderstood
> My question to you is - how do you 'practice' phala ..and what is
the
> desired result of such practice?
often
>
> with metta
>
> Matheesha
>
>
>
> --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drbf2@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear matheesha,
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, the sensation of being immersed is there, and a very common
> > description heard in Mahasi circles; however, I think for some
> people it
> > is not the most prominent aspect of the experience and so is
> not
the
> > mentioned. Even when it is strong, there can be other words to
> describe
> > that sense, for example a mutual friend of Allan and myself,
> expressed
> > this by saying that "consciousness become shrouded." That sense
> > of not only being completely cut off from space/time, but also
> being in
> > another kind of space altogether is, I think, the essence behind
> > words. Some people enter into supermundane absorption with a
sense
> of
mind
> > "going down" that adds to the submergence experience. The going
> > down, or dropping away would seem to be the last formation of
> > fading away, or ceasing, often experienced as a "fall." For some
consciousness
> > people it is naama-rupa that falls away, for others it is
> consciousness
> > that falls away from nama-rupa. The reorientation of
> can
the
> > be intuited as up, down, backwards, or inwards but I think that
> use
the
> > of the concept "submerged" would only be present if the
> > intuition was a downward fall of consciousness away from mind and
> > matter. Interestingly, I don't think that we will ever hear of a
> > "forward" direction towards immersion into voidness. If I did, I
> > would suspect mundane jhana.
> >
> >
> >
> > The ray of light metaphor is absolutely perfect! Can you find
> source
to
> > for the "non-manifesting consciousness" for us? I was looking
> > for this verse the other day, but could not find it.
> >
> >
> >
> > With metta,
> >
> >
> >
> > Daniel B.
> >
> > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" <dhammachat@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Culladasa, Daniel, All,
> > >
> > > I doubt if I have much more to add to this discussion except
> say
the
> > > that my experience of entering into phala includes a sense
> > > of 'sinking'. One of me teachers went as far to say that if
> yogi
is
> > > does not talk of 'sinking' then that she would doubt the
> attainment
> > > of phala. There is certainly a sense of a 180 degree change
> > > of 'direction' in consciousness from nama-rupa to nibbana. It
> > > often from these sensations that I detect that I am in the
I
> process of
> > > going into phala. There is some sense of moving from gross
> stimuli to
> > > increasingly subtle ones, as if going up the jhana ladder. But
> > > suppose those two paths are different in that jhaanas seem
areas
> propelled
> > > by a dense samadhi while this is propelled by letting go hence
> > > more 'relaxed'. The more deeper I go, I seem to loose motor
> of
posture
> > > my brain as well and my body slumps forward in the sitting
> > > loosing it's tone.
coming
> > >
> > > Two bits from the suttas:
> > > Anidassana vinnana 'non-manifestative consciousness'
> > > and the mind in nibbbana being equalled to a beam of light
> in
landing
> > > through a window, but not landing on a wall, infact, not
> > > anywhere at all.
Daniel
> > >
> > > with metta
> > >
> > > Matheesha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Daniel and All,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I had written:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
> > > objects and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as
> puts
awareness
> > > it, with complete absorption;
> > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
> > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
> times;
> > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
> > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
> state
> > > of absorption;
> > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
> > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
a
> > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
during
> > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
if I
> > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
could
> > > remembering a scene from a movie.
> > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
> > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
wherein
> continued.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To which you replied:
> > > > "The experience you describe does not jive very well with the
> > > Abhidhamma model of consciousness, but is compatible with the
> model
> > > of consciousness you put forward earlier on this board,
> you
as
> > > described the senses and the mind as having each their own
> > > simultaneously functioning sub-minds, and conscious attention
> > > seventh could move among them as needed. I wonder though, if
your
> > > conscious mind was absorbed in voidness, and your other
subminds
> > > were "running the show":
performing
> > > >
> > > > Were the body and the mind functioning competently,
> > > tasks, thinking, talking acting? If so did others perceive you
talking
> > > as "normal"?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You have interpreted it the same way I do. The body and mind
> were
> > > apparently functioning competently, but in every instance I was
> > > engaged in tasks that did not require much thinking, and
> was
presence of
> > > never involved. In the one instance where I was in the
> > > other people, I was perceived as "normal" and I did ask.
There
> > is a
in
> > > parallel with all kinds of situations in which we are so
> preoccupied
> > > in one activity that everything else is on automatic, and the
> example
> > > I frequently use is when we are driving a vehicle while `lost
> > > thought' or `lost in conversation' to the extent that we are
aware
> > > completely unaware of the activities of driving. The one
> difference
> > > that is distinctive is the quality of memory. In the driving
> example
> > > we may have some vague memories as though we are partially
> from
the
> > > time to time, but they are of the ordinary subjective kind. In
> > > instances I speak of, there was absolutely no awareness of the
from
> > > ordinary events and activities (as best I can
> > > > discern) during the episode, and the subsequent memory had a
> more
> > > objective and distant quality, most like remembering a scene
> a
be in
> > > movie.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Why doesn't this happen during normal jhana?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't know, maybe it would if one could enter jhana while
> > > engaged in ordinary activities.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As for jiving with the abhidhamma model of consciousness, I
> don't
> > > see any problem at all with this set of experiences. All other
> bodily
> > > functions continue while in phala, so why shouldn't the brain
> > > continue to function as well, and why shouldn't the physical
> > > processes of memory storage at the level of neural circuits,
> neurons
> > > and neurochemistry continue as well?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If there is a discordance with abhidhamma theory, it would
> > > the case of simultaneous awareness of nibbana and namarupa in
the
> > > other unusual phala experiences we have discussed here and
that
> you
Matheesha
> > > have described as " what appears to be phala conjoined to sense
> > > experience." Of those experiences, the ones I had in retreat
> included
> > > awareness and recollection of the factors of spatiality, mental
> > > state, and dualistic perception and those that you and
> > > described would have included those factors plus the awareness
and
> > > memory of sensations and mental objects arising during the
phala
> > > event.
is
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As you have said yourself: "When entering phala, everything
> > > released (you do not release it), and everything includes the
to
> > > tilakhana and the very function of perception itself. One has
> > > release to the very core of one's mind/being ". On the other
hand,
> > > Matheesha has said: "Phala is certainly a state of animitta -
be at
> signless-
> > > or a state where there is no attention. There are vague sense
> > > impressions happening almonst in the 'background" [emphasis is
> mine]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The only way I can think of explaining this that would not
> > > odds with the abhidhamma model would be the same way that we
rapidly
> explain
> > > the ordinary experience of being conscious of multiple objects
> > > simultaneously, which is to say that consciousness is very
> > > alternating between objects. But in this case, for there to be
an
> > > inter-leaving between vinnana with namarupa as object and
panna
> with
it
> > > nibbana as object, consciousness is not just changing objects,
> is
experience
> > > shifting into a different mode entirely and undergoing a major
> change
> > > in orientation between relative and ultimate realities,.
> > > The `rotation' would have to become a `spinning', but instead
> there
> > > is a `stuckness'.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You ask:
> > > > "What is actually happening with the "rotation, collapsing
> > > etc."?
> > > >
> > > > Keeping in mind that not every one uses this language or
> > > experiences it in this way, there is frequently this
> of a
consciousness. If
> > > temporally discrete and radical reorientation of
> > > this process is not the supermundane equivalent of absorption
some
> > > happening, then what is it? And more to the point, what is it
> that it
> > > could happen part way? The best I can come up with so far is
> > > kind of kinesthetic sensation that accompanies the intuition
as to
> > > the "orientation" of this dimension of consciousness. I am
on
> interested
> > > to hear what your and Matheesha's (or anyone else's) opionion
> > > this."
object
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In absorption there are long intervals during which the
> of
in
> > > consciousness and the attendant cetasikas remain constant, and
> > > that regard the citta that knows nibbana seems to be
equivalent to
> > > jhana-citta, but the `letting-go' to enter jhana is like
settling
> > > into a warm bath, while the `letting-go' of phala-citta is
more
> like
much
> > > entering free-fall. The profound `rotation' into phala-citta
> seems to
> > > related to the turning away from namarupa and turning towards
> > > nibbana, but in terms of semantic approximations, it is also
> > > like popping through a tiny worm-hole into another universe. I
Clearly
> don't
> > > know what else to say.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > With much metta,
> > > > Culadasa
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
> > > > Dear Culadasa,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for sharing with us this very important experience.
> > > This conversation is an extraordinary treasure. We step into
> > > undocumented territory as far as official Theravada doctrine is
> > > concerned. This is personally very reassuring for me; as I told
> > > Matheesha, I was very doubtful about this. Just when I think my
> > > practice is done surprising me, I get another curve ball.
> if
absorption.
> > > two other people doing the same practice have come upon similar
> > > experiences, this suggest that we are not lost in some
> idiosyncratic
> > > manifestation of our private journeys! This is very good new
> indeed.
> > > >
> > > > You write:
> > > > "In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory
> > > reality was not present except for a distinct sensation of
> > > separateness from the void, because of which absorption did not
> > > occur. The form in which consciousness of ordinary reality
> persisted
> > > was the sense of being a separate observer, and of existing in
> > > spatial locality. No other aspect remained."
> > > >
> > > > I find this description wonderfully clear, and particularly
> > > noteworthy in that is describes what would appear to be a
> > > straightforward experience of phala but without full
> It
potential
> > > serves as a perfect case in point to raise the question:
> > > > "Does phala have to be a fully absorptive experience?"
> > > > Logically speaking, I do not see why it should have to be. If
> > > consciousness can experience suññata absorptively(the nature of
> > > the "experiencing" is another discussion) then why can't it be
> > > experienced without full absorption, just like any other
> > > object of jhana? It never occurred to me to ask myself this
etc."?
> question!
> > > However, there is another question associated with this.
> > > > What is actually happening with the "rotation, collapsing
> > > > Keeping in mind that not every one uses this language or
experience
> > > experiences it in this way, there is frequently this
> of a
consciousness. If
> > > temporally discrete and radical reorientation of
> > > this process is not the supermundane equivalent of absorption
some
> > > happening, then what is it? And more to the point, what is it
> that it
> > > could happen part way? The best I can come up with so far is
> > > kind of kinesthetic sensation that accompanies the intuition
as to
> > > the "orientation" of this dimension of consciousness. I am
on
> interested
> > > to hear what your and Matheesha's (or anyone else's) opionion
> this.
shift
> > > >
> > > > I notice that these three are very similar, differing only in
> > > that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to
> but
and
> > > there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention,
> > > both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence
of
> > > sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/
phalacitta,
> > > while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from
certain
> namarupa to
> > > nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into
> nibbana
> > > does not occur.
> > > >
> > > > I believe you have summarized this very nicely. I am not
> > > if this germane, but the noteworthy aspect of the experience I
was
> > > describing (beyond that of standard absorbed phala that had
two
> preceded
> > > this) was the complete coexistence in conscious awareness of
> > > radically different but, much to my surprise, compatible modes
of
> > > consciousness. I forgot to mention that I could consciously
turn
> > > attention outward, further into sensory experience, or more
I
> towards
> > > formlessness. This type of experience (there have been others
> since,
> > > the process evolves) seems to be very close to non-duality. Am
> > > wrong in assuming that this experience has a distinctly
Mahayana
> tone
we
> > > to it? And that maybe the early Mahayanists were talking about
> > > precisely this (among other things)? If this is the case, then
> > > have discovered among the three of us the living experience of
same
> what
> > > William was speaking of, how the early Mahayanists used the
> > > scriptures as we do in the Theravada today, and
be
> > > > presumably practices based upon them.
> > > >
> > > > Now before we become too certain about all this, could there
> > > other explanations? I take note that all three of us have
worked
> with
experience
> > > jhana. In particular I was working formless jhanas just before
> this
> > > occurred. Could we be experiencing a manifestation of some
> formless
> > > nimitta continuous with our normal awareness? But the
> of
would
> > > the 3rd arupa jhana, nothingness, produces an experience very
> similar
> > > to what we are speaking of. I personally do not see how this
> > > reproduce the sense of profound letting go and the rotation
entirely:
> > > phenomena. But I feel the need to make some effort to be self
> > > critical here.
> > > > Now the next experience you describe is another thing
> > > >
it,
> > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
> objects
> > > and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts
> with
awareness
> > > complete absorption;
> > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
> > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
> times;
> > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
> > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
> state
> > > of absorption;
> > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
> > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
a
> > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
during
> > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
if I
> > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
could
> > > remembering a scene from a movie.
> > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
> > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
the
> continued.
> > > >
> > > > This to say the least very extraordinary Culadasa! This fits
> > > neither my current understanding of phala or of jhana. The only
> > > experience I have ever heard that resembles this would be from
> > > life of Ramana Maharshi. He described, that early in his life
soon
> > > after his realization (whatever that was) he would become
and
> completely
> > > absorbed in the same reality that he experienced continuously,
> > > sometime later he would "wake up" to find himself somewhere
else.
> > > > The experience you describe does not jive very well with the
wherein
> > > Abhidhamma model of consciousness, but is compatible with the
> model
> > > of consciousness you put forward earlier on this board,
> you
as
> > > described the senses and the mind as having each their own
> > > simultaneously functioning sub-minds, and conscious attention
> > > seventh could move among them as needed. I wonder though, if
your
> > > conscious mind was absorbed in voidness, and your other
subminds
> > > were "running the show":
in
> > > >
> > > > § Were the body and the mind functioning competently,
> > > performing tasks, thinking, talking acting? If so did others
> perceive
> > > you as "normal"?
> > > > § Why doesn't this happen during normal jhana?
> > > >
> > > > The last question I want to ask you is what teachings exist
> > > your Tibetan background that might be useful in helping us to
mention?
> > > understand these, especially the fourth experience you
> You
Nevertheless,
> > > seem to be more comfortable than I am in trusting your own
> experience
> > > as teacher. I feel much less comfortable stepping outside the
> > > boundaries of the accepted teachings of my Elders
> here
based
> > > is my experience, and your and Matheesha's.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you again for sharing your experience,
> > > >
> > > > With metta,
> > > > Daniel
> > > >
> > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa <culadasa@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Daniel,
> > > > >
> > > > > It is unfortunate that you cannot recall the writer who
> discussed
> > > this matter, and the sutta he referenced, as it might have been
> > > helpful. But what I am discussing here is not a speculation
> on
it
> > > an interpretation of scriptures. It is the other way around,
> is an
a
> > > interpretation of experience for which the suttas may serve as
> > > guide and can perhaps help to avoid misinterpretation.
Matheesha
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, I am referring to personal experiences and yes, I am
> > > comfortable sharing them here and comparing them with
> and
though,
> > > your related experiences.
> > > > >
> > > > > You describe:
> > > > >
> > > > > "a state of consciousness in which emptiness and sensory
> > > awareness coexist... the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning
> > > inside out" of consciousness that would normally lead to
> absorption
> > > into voidness begins, but does not complete itself."
> > > > >
> > > > > I have had a very similar experience occurring repeatedly
> during
> > > the last few days of a retreat. There was this difference,
> > > between my experience and what you have described. Whereas you
experiencing a
> have
> > > said:
> > > > >
> > > > > "... instead of the mind dissolving into its own
> transparency, it
> > > is as if consciousness rotates only half way and become stuck
> > > with "half" experiencing sensory reality and "half"
> > > timeless spaceless transparent purity"
separateness
> > > > >
> > > > > In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory
> reality
> > > was not present except for a distinct sensation of
> from
in
> > > the void, because of which absorption did not occur. The form
> > > which consciousness of ordinary reality persisted was the
sense of
> > > being a separate observer, and of existing in spatial
locality. No
> > > other aspect remained.
in
> > > > >
> > > > > Matheesha describes:
> > > > >
> > > > > "what feels like phalacitta overlapped during waking
> > > consciousness. It feels like an internal turning away from the
> > > senses - of conciousness established on nibbana, but in a
> temporary
> > > manner."
> > > > >
> > > > > I notice that these three are very similar, differing only
> > > that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to
shift
> but
and
> > > there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention,
> > > both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence
of
> > > sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/
phalacitta,
> > > while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from
only
> namarupa to
> > > nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into
> nibbana
> > > does not occur.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a fourth kind of experience, one that I have had
> > > three times so far, all very recently, and which I had
take
> specifically
> > > in mind with that earlier posting. These experiences did not
> > > place in retreat but rather while engaged in normal
activities. In
> > > each case I was either actually contemplating some aspect of
that
> dhamma
> > > in the moment it occured, or else had been doing so immediately
> > > beforehand. I don't know whether there is any significance to
> > > fact or not, since that is what I tend to be doing most of the
it,
> time
> > > anyway. But these are the characteristics that are most
> definitely of
> > > significance:
> > > > > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense
> objects
> > > and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts
> with
several
> > > complete absorption;
> > > > > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for
> > > minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two
a
> times;
> > > > > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
> > > apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the
> state
> > > of absorption;
> > > > > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory
> awareness
> > > during the event, following the period of absorption there was
> > > recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place
during
> > > the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as
if I
> > > were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
could
> > > remembering a scene from a movie.
> > > > > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex
> > > have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had
Leaving
> continued.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have often wondered what the state of an Arahant's
> > > consciousness would be like, and it is my opinion that all of
> these
> > > experiences, Daniel's, Matheesha's, and Culadasa's are strong
> > > pointers towards the possibility of what that may be like.
> > > aside my retreat experience, I can easily imagine that all
three
> of
how a
> > > these other experiences are representative of transcendental
> states
> > > that are sustainable in the `world', and so can account for
> > > Buddha might dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in
the
> > > world.
say
> > > > >
> > > > > You ask:
> > > > >
> > > > > " how do we find our way to understanding what such an
> > > experience actually is apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal
> > > preferences."
> > > > >
> > > > > This is always the most important question, and all I can
> is
Arahantship,
> > > that subjectively the experience was unquestionably phala
> samapatti,
> > > spontaneous and brief though it was, and that the aftermath
> verified
> > > the experience as just that as well. I find the Thervada
> tradition to
> > > have very little to say about the higher Paths and
> and
realization,
> > > while the Mahayana discounts the Arahant as a lesser
> > > there are no shortage of references to a Buddha or a "fully
have
> > > enlightened being" dwelling continuously in Nirvana while the
> > > Nirmanakaya functions on this plane to teach and to guide the
> rest of
> > > us out of suffering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Two last thoughts on the foregoing. Entirely without any
> > > scholastic or philosophical justification, I have always
> discounted
> > > the Mahayana idea of the Arahant as a lesser realization, and
> > > likewise ignored any Theravadin suggestions that the Arahant
might
> > > represent an intermediate stage between the Anagamin and
is an
> Buddhahood.
> > > In my personal cosmology an Arahant = a Buddha, and a Buddha
> > > Arahant, and the historical Buddha was a Sammasambuddha
endowed
> with
but
> > > certain special abilities vis-a-vis teaching the rest of us,
> does
attainment. I
> > > not otherwise represent a higher level of spiritual
> am
used
> > > open to being educated on this point, and if I can be made to
> clearly
> > > understand the difference I might modify the language I have
> in
to
> > > the preceding paragraphs. But the bottom line is an aspiration
> > > Buddhahood, whether that is the same as Arahant or not, and it
forth
> only
> > > seems reasonable to me that a Buddha has direct experience of
> > > Ultimate Reality, panna, even while the fleshly
> > > > > corpse continues to be animated for the benefit of all
> sentient
> > > beings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am in your debt and in your service.
> > > > > Culadasa
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
> > > > > Dear Culadasa,
> > > > >
> > > > > I recall reading years ago a Theravada writer that put
> the
vague
> > > same position you propose, that the phala cittas of the arhant
> could
> > > be present during sensory consciousness. I do not remember that
> > > author's name. He quoted as his authority a sutta passage that
> > > mentioned the consciousness of the arhant as being bright and
> > > limitless, or something like that. I am sorry for being so
> but
rate
> > > I no longer remember where to find this information. At any
> you
as
> > > said:
> > > > >
> > > > > "it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
> > > Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana
> his
here.
> > > or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
> > > recently,"
> > > > >
> > > > > What is it that makes you so certain now? If you are
> referring to
> > > a personal experience, would you feel comfortable sharing it
> > > You said:
it
> > > > >
> > > > > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of
> > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
unexpectedly
> for
ordinary
> > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
> > > activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and
mind
> > > continue to function completely normally to all outward
memory
> appearances.
> > > After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a
> > > record such that the events that occurred on the sense plane
state
> during
> > > the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
> > > an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of
> what
> > > the state of the Arahat may be like."
> > > > >
> > > > > In the last few years I have occasionally experienced a
> of
coexist. I
> > > consciousness in which emptiness and sensory awareness
> am
voidness
> > > not however so confident as to call this a type of phala. To
> describe
> > > it briefly, the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning inside
> out" of
> > > consciousness that would normally lead to absorption into
> > > begins, but does not complete itself. So instead of the mind
as
> > > dissolving into its own transparency, it is as if consciousness
> > > rotates only half way and become stuck with "half" experiencing
> > > sensory reality and "half" experiencing a timeless spaceless
> > > transparent purity. I do remember the first time this happened,
> > > the "sensory" part of "me" was surprised and really did feel
> if I
soap
> > > had gotten stuck. This event of course makes samsaric reality
> appear
> > > to be something akin to a film projection on the surface of
> > > bubble. The same basic state comes from time to time, and can
had
> vary as
> > > to its "flavor" ie. more or less tranquility, more or
> > > > > less radiance, more or less happiness etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said all this I must also say that at the time I
> been
just
> > > doing two months of samatha practice and several weeks with the
> > > nimittas of the formless jhanas just prior to the sathipathana
> > > practice that lead to this experience. So was this just a
> > > samatha "thang" some after affects of staring into the
> nothingness of
> > > the 3rd arupa jhana nimitta? Or was it an insight thing, or
> one
least
> > > of the many interesting and uncatalogued by products of deep
> > > practice? I don't know of anyone who can give an answer to this
> > > question. It just is what it is, however, amongst those things
> that
> > > it is, it is impermanent, and therefore under suspicion. At
> for
an
> > > now J
> > > > >
> > > > > So why am I saying all this? Because the developed mind is
> > > capable of so many interesting states. If someone were having
> > > experience that would qualify to fit the criteria for the one
you
> are
it
> > > mentioning:
> > > > >
> > > > > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of
> > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
unexpectedly
> for
ordinary
> > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
> > > activities"
actually
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, how would we know? I am not saying it is not so, but
> how do
> > > we find our way to understanding what such an experience
> is
you
> > > apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal preferences. Perhaps
> > > have Vajrayana or Mahayana teachings to help you with
address
> understanding
> > > such things, but as far as I know, the Theravada says nothing
> about
> > > this officially and I am unaware of any oral tradition that
> speaks of
> > > this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank your for listening,
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel B.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Daniel,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My conversation with Dhammanando was meant to be open to
> > > everyone, so thank you for joining in. My reply will only
> > > single point as I am 'on the road' at the moment, and I hope
to be
> > > able to respond to other of your comments in the next few days.
same
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for the ice and water metaphor, it serves in several
> ways.
> > > One of which is that ice and water are both H2O, and in that
> > > way, consciousness is consciousness, but there is a shift to a
sakadagami
> > > profoundly different state of consciousness at magga-phala and
> phala
> > > samapatti just as there is a shift in state from water to ice.
> They
> > > are the same, yet completely different at the same time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ordinary consciousness of the sotapan or the
> or
its
> > > even anagami is still vinnana, it still takes nama and rupa as
> > > objects. Vinnana is vinnana, "although with [more or] less
force
> or
magga-
> > > with more [or less] transparency." But the consciousness at
> > > phala and phala samapatti is distinctly different, it is not
to
> vinnana
> > > (and some have suggested that panna might be the better word
> use
sensory
> > > for this consciousness), and it does not take nama and rupa as
> > > object.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And so you say "Even an arhant in his or her daily
> > > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in
the
> > > magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-
phala
> and
absorbed
> > > phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
> in
compatible
> > > Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not
> with
this
> > > sensory or bodily functioning." (I notice you have qualified
> > > statement by saying "magga-phala or phala experiences of the
lower
> > > paths" and I wonder whether you mean by that all three lower
does
> paths as
> > > compared to the Arahant, or only the first two, because this
> > > bear somewhat on the issue I am trying to clarify here with
vinnana
> regard to
> > > the consciousness of an Arahant.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The difficulty is, as you say, that magga-phala and phala
> > > samapatti are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
> absorbed
> > > in sunnata, and so
> > > > > > - since it is the very fact that the consciousness that
> arises
> > > in magga-phala and phala samapatti directly knows sunnata that
> > > distinguishes it from the ordinary consciousness called
> (that
is
> > > takes materiality and mentality as its object and is thus
> imprisoned
> > > by it), and furthermore;
> > > > > > - since the defining characteristic of the jhanic state
> that
than
> > > the consciousness is completely withdrawn from anything other
> > > the specific object of jhana,
as
> > > > > > it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
> > > Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana
> his
a
> > > or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
> > > recently, although I have from time to time encountered
> suggestions
> > > to the contrary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So at this point I would like to expand the metaphor of
> water
> > > and ice to include the dimension of temperature. There can be
> > > different degrees within a single state. Water can exist over
> great
same
> > > range of temperatures and still remain water, and so can ice
> exist at
> > > a great range of temperatures while still remaining ice. The
> > > appears to be true of these mind states.
the
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As we know, there is a very definite difference between
> > > ordinary consciousness, the vinnana of the non-ariyan and the
suggesting
> > > sotapan, sakadagami, or anagami, and likewise there is a
> difference
> > > in the vinnana of these lower path stages as compared to each
> other.
> > > This corresponds to temperature in the metaphore. I am
> > > that perhaps there is also a similar difference in the
function
> consciousness
> > > that knows nibanna, the phala samapatti consciousness of the
> Arahant
> > > as compared to that of the lower Paths, and it is such that it
> > > permits a Buddha to dwell in nibbana while continuing to
> in
of it
> > > the world.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is an experience some have had, and you may know
> > > yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests
unexpectedly
> for
ordinary
> > > a period of time outside of intense practice and during
> > > activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and
mind
> > > continue to function completely normally to all outward
memory
> appearances.
> > > After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a
> > > record such that the events that occured on the sense plane
during
> > > the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
the
> > > an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of
> what
> > > the state of the Arahat may be like. As you may notice upon
> > > reflection, the one who dwells in nibbana while functioning in
> > > world would be absolutely free of any vestige of attachment to
a
> > > separate existence of any kind, on any plane.
you. I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your shared thoughts nourish my understanding. Thank
> > > hope that I can offer you something of some value in return.
will
> > > > > > Culadasa
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Culadasa,
> > > > > > I hope you don't mind if I insert myself into your
> conversation
> > > with the Ven. Dhammadhino. As always your posts, being of
> > > considerable weightiness, require a serious response. So I
> try
points. I
> > > to share my reflections with you regarding some of your
> > > find these back-and-forths to be both clarifying and
edifiying.
> Thank
it
> > > you so much for taking the time and the trouble.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I suppose in the back of my mind I'd always taken the
> > > assertion of 7 years or less to Arhantship to be somewhat
> hyperbolic."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So did I until I met Taungpulu Sayadaw. I learned from
> hanging
> > > with him, that there is a whole other dimension of help that a
> truly
> > > great yogi can give. I am not sure how to explain it, whether
> is a
of
> > > type of psychic power, or a hugely expanded subtle body, or
> whatever,
> > > but there is a very palpable power that extents around a being
> > > great realization that supports the yogi from within by
permeating
> > > his entire being and bringing stillness, peace and power into
the
> > > disciples mind, and drawing him in the right direction, like
an
> inner
Just
> > > magnet. When you practice within range of this aura, you find
> > > yourself capable of so much more than you would otherwise.
> being
in
> > > in the presence of such a being is a transformational growth
> > > experience. I remember that people who know noting about
> meditation
> > > or Buddhism would sometimes come to see Taungpulu, and sitting
> > > silence they would begin to weep so deep and powerful was the
with
> > > stillness and the love that radiated around him. Dipa
> > > > > > Ma, who spoke no English, I remember would look at me
> > > great love and simply reach into my mind and adjust my
disappear. If
> consciousness
> > > to make whatever trouble I was having in my practice
> > > these teachers had that kind of power, I cannot even imagine
what
> it
in
> > > must have been like to sit in the presence of the Buddha. Seen
> > > this way, seven years although exceptional become believable.
suttas
> > > Interestingly, along these lines, you might remember how the
> suttas
> > > often say that such and such a bhikkhu attains to final
> knowledge "in
> > > no long time." The commentaries say that "no long time" means
> within
> > > 12 years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At any rate, there are many "unofficial truths" in the
> living
> > > tradition of the Theravada that cannot be justified in the
> or
about
> > > the commentaries. Every one knows them, but they don't talk
> > > them. For example there is an entire oral tradition about such
that
> things
> > > as the progress of insight, teaching by balancing the five
> > > controlling faculties, finer points of jhana training etc.
> does
times, of
> > > not exist in writing anywhere.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "And so, if I infer correctly with regard to the
> consciousness
> > > of an Arahant, the mindfulness of the Arahant is, at all
> > > one kind with that of the Stream Entrant, Once-Returner, and
Non-
> > > Returner during their experience of magga and phala."
to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I see what you are trying to do with the ice and
> water
> > > metaphor: so show how mindfulness, and consciousness with the
> other
> > > factors evolves to become "denser" as we progress from stage
> stage
do
> > > such that what was exceptional before now becomes natural. I
> agree
a
> > > with this in a general way. For example I carry within myself
> more
being
> > > or less constant level of awareness of the three signs of
> all
extent
> > > day long, that does not require effort. The Dhamma to some
> has
that
> > > become part of me in a way that would not have been possible
> twenty
> > > years ago. However, it still lacks the intensity and clarity
> > > come when samadhi and viriya are developed by stronger
continuity
> of
mean
> > > practice. Now as to what you stated above, if by magga you
> path
would
> > > development, and by phala you mean the result of that then I
> > > agree. However, if you are using these words in the
commentarial
> > > sense of magga-phala and phala, then I don't see it. Even an
present
> arhant
> > > in his or her daily sensory
> > > > > > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is
> in
compatible
> > > the magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-
> phala
> > > and phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely
> absorbed
> > > in Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not
> > > with sensory or bodily functioning.
three
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter
> when
awakening
> > > they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling in
> > > fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to
> who
way
> > > has yet to achieve either."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps this is true as regards to insight in a general
> as
the
> > > I described my own experience above, but even the sotapan or
> > > sakadagami who has lost the concentration of retreat or
regular
> daily
transparency.
> > > practice will experience mundane mind states in a more or less
> > > ordinary way, although with less force or with more
> But
already
> > > still nothing close to the shift experienced in deep retreat
> practice
> > > by those without attainments. As best as I understand this, the
> > > really powerful shift in consciousness comes with the
> internalization
> > > of jhanic factors that the yogi must accomplish to attain the
> path of
> > > anagami. Here is a sutta that helps to illustrate my meaning:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3. "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you
> > > internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and
> > > delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state
> > > abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home
life,
> > > you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is
because
> that
is
> > > state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the
> home
> > > life and enjoying sensual pleasures.
> > > > > > 4. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it
> > > actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide
> little
> > > gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great
> the
pleasures,
> > > danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the
> > > rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual
> > > apart from unwholesome states,or to something more peaceful
than
> > > that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when
a
> > > noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper
pleasures,
> wisdom
> > > how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much
> suffering,
> > > and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he
> attains
> > > to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual
> > > apart form unwholesome states, or to soething more peaceful
than
> > > that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures.
attained
> > > > > > Notes: Mahanama was a sakadagami who had long ago
> the
states
> > > path of once returner. He was puzzled as to why unwholesome
> > > sill appeared in his mind. In his case the chief defilement
seems
> to
demonstrates
> > > have been desire for sensual pleasures. This sutta
> how
have
> > > noble disciples can have misunderstandings as to their
> attainments.
> > > It also demonstrates how sakadagamis do not necessarily
> > > even the lower jhanas, and how the Buddha recommended jhana
and
> training
> > > to householders interested in attaining the higher paths
> > > fruits. It also is suggestive of the importance of jhana
training
> for
Mass
> > > some people in the attainment of the path of anagami.
> > > > > > Culadukkhakhandha Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the
> of
flesh;
> > > Suffering; MN 14:3-4
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
> > > contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the
> the
or
> > > mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior,
> surpassed
> > > or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated
> not
the
> > > liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
> > > formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening;
> > > truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold
any
> > > doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete
method
> for
practice
> > > the attainment of Arhantship. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am sure that we can agree that these contemplations are
> > > exactly the same as those outlined in the suttas for the
> of
the
> > > samatha-vipassana that the Buddha specifically recommends for
> > > attainment of the higher paths. I do not have one on hand, but
the
> > > typical pattern as put forth in the suttas is that the yogi
and
> emerges
> > > from the jhana, and then observes the mental factors present
> > > watches as they pass away. He then goes up to the next higher
from
> jhana
> > > and repeats the process and so forth. Here is another quote
> the
samatha-
> > > suttas, one of my favorites that describes the process of
> > > vipassana in a way that specifically aims at the transition
from
> > > sakadagami to anagami, and interestingly includes as objects of
basis.
> > > mindfulness all the five aggregates. What this means for me is
> that
> > > the entire satipathana process remains helpful to the yogi
> developing
> > > the path to anagami, only he is doing so with jhana as its
> > > > > >
abandoning
> > > > > > 9."And what, Ananda, is the path, the way to the
> of
secluded
> > > the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from objects of
> > > attachment, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the
> > > complete tranquilization of bodily inertia, quite
> from
calamity,
> > > sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu
> enters
> > > upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by
> applied
> > > and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of
> seclusion.
> > > > > > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling,
> perception,
> > > formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as
> impermanent,
> > > as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a
> a
not
> > > an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, and as
> self.
the
> > > He turns his mind away from hose states, and directs it toward
> > > deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the
the
> > > sublime, that is, the stilling of all formation, the
> > > relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
> > > dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. Standing upon that, he attains
> > > destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the
Abodes
> destruction
> > > of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhmma, that
> > > delight in the Dhamma, with the destruction of the five lower
> fetters
> > > he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure
> and
world.
> > > there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that
> > > This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower
Malunkya;
> > > > > > fetters.
> > > > > > Note: This is repeated for each of the eight jhanas.
> > > > > > Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta: The Greater Discourse to
> MN
on
> > > 64:9
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I don't mean just in the West. This has been going
> for a
world.
> > > very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of the
> The
and
> > > result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the ignorant,
> and we
> > > are like the blind leading the blind. I have found a lot of
> nonsense
> > > as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and Tika of the Theravada
> the
as
> > > same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-Tibetan tradition
> > > well.
reason I
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't even get me going on this one! This is indeed a
> terrible
> > > situation, and one of the very best reasons we have to get
> the "good
> > > stuff" down in writing and publish it publicly. For this
> am
we
> > > writing my book (slowly I admit) and so are you I believe. But
> > > really need to take the core of practical teaching out of the
is
> closet
> > > of secrecy that allows for all this nonsense to develop. Things
> > > fester in the dark. Many people erroneously believe that there
> no
for
> > > secret teaching in Theravada Buddhism. This is not true. Why
> > > example is the Mahasi teacher's manual not published, but
passed
> on
the
> > > in secrecy? Every Theravada lineage that I have ever known has
> > > same attitude of secrecy and communication on "need to know
basis
> > > only." This encourages student dependency, creates a better
market
> > > for teachers, allows for all sorts of misunderstanding and
there
> > > distortions of the teaching, and puts the practical Dhamma at
> risk of
> > > being lost in the world. I find it all the more
> > > > > > appalling in that many Theravada teachers pretend that
> > > are no secret teachings in this tradition. This is usually
said
> as a
growing
> > > deprecating reference to Hindu or Tibetan teachers that have
> secret
> > > teachings. At least these traditions are honest about it!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who
> don't
> > > know what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly
> > > number of people with genuine realization who don't know how
to
> teach
teaching
> > > others what they have learned themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How sad and how true. I believe that the best way around
> this
> > > is to publish our best understanding of both practice and
> > > processes. The more substantial teachings will withstand the
test
> of
access to
> > > time, and time will reveal those who really know their stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your patience, may you be happy, healthy and
> safe!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Daniel Boutemy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Culadasa culadasa@
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello Venerable Dhammanando,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you very much for clarifying this. It is very
> helpful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This confirms Daniel's original attempt at translating
> this
> > > passage, and explains also what the Atthakatha excerpt that he
> > > located was indicating. Since your knowledge of Pali and
> > > Pali language resources appears to be so much better than
ours,
> can
word 'aparikkhine'
> > > you please tell us more about 'sati' as a form of the verb 'to
> be'?
> > > Also, do you happen to know the meaning of the
> > > that is used in the Atthakatha? I had thought it meant
something
> like
meaning
> > > observation, or examination, but cannot locate it in any
> dictionary,
> > > and given that sati as used here is not mindfulness, that
> no
gone
> > > longer makes much sense either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would like to share with all of you where I have
> with
it
> > > this since first posting my query. It began with an error of
> > > translation on my part because I had neither encountered 'añña'
> > > before in its meaning of 'perfect knowledge', and so mistook
> for
of
> > > its much more common usage as a disjunctive, nor was I aware
> this
has
> > > other meaning of 'sati'. But it set in motion a process that
> been
years
> > > productive of a deeper understanding and appreciation of the
> sutta.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Although I'd never reflected upon it at any length, I
> suppose
> > > in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion of 7
> or
may
> > > less to Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic. I think Blake
> have
are
> > > expressed the thoughts of many of us when he asked, "Did the
> > > attainments in the suttas get exaggerated over the years, or
> we
and
> > > now doing something wrong in our practice?" And then also, it
> seems
> > > that I had mostly thought of the practices of the
> > > Mahasattipatthanasutta in terms of the lower path challenges
> > > attainments anyway, and of course one only sees what one looks
at!
> > > > > > >
a
> > > > > > > But William's comments planted a thorn in my mind such
> that I
> > > kept returning to this issue, trying to penetrate this mystery
> > > little more deeply. It is indeed this thing that we call
my
> mindfulness,
> > > and mindfulness alone, that is of the essence of awakening at
> every
> > > stage of the Path. And by the way, William, it was not at all
> > > intention to suggest that the mindfulness of the Stream-
Enterer is
> > > the ultimate development of mindfulness, because this is quite
formulate
> > > obviously not so. It was a clumsy attempt on my part to
> a
Path
> > > statement of alternatives at the level of 2nd Path versus 3rd
> > > while assuming the word sati had been used in the sutta to mean
Returner.
> > > mindfulness. 'Fully developed' was intended to apply very
> > > specifically to the quality of mindfulness of the Once-
> But
the
> > > I would like to point out that, while the mindfulness of the
> Arhant
> > > is different from the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer, it is
> also
> > > very much the same. Ice is ice at -10 C or at -100 C,
> > > > although
> > > > > > > it is also different at those two temperatures. The
> > > mindfulness that takes nibbana as object is as different from
> > > mindfulness that takes rupa, sankhara and namarupa as object,
as
> ice
correctly
> > > is different from water. I find the phase change of matter to
> provide
> > > a good metaphor for that difference. And so, if I infer
> > > with regard to the consciousness of an Arahant, the
mindfulness of
> > > the Arahant is, at all times, of one kind with that of the
Stream
> > > Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner during their
experience
> of
water
> > > magga and phala. On the other hand, the mindfulness of these
> latter
> > > three when they are experiencing neither path attainment nor
> dwelling
> > > in fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to
> awakening
> > > who has yet to achieve either. And so just as either ice or
> can
ice
> > > exist over a range of temperatures, water is still water and
> is
some
> > > still ice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This metaphor, as with all metaphors, falls down at
> > > point. But when I returned to the Mahasatipatthanasutta to
seek
> the
to
> > > answer within the source of the question, the obvious began to
> leap
> > > out at me. The contemplations as perfomed by the non-ariyan
> aspirant
> > > to Stream-Entry take one form. After first path, they take
> another,
> > > and so on. Some of these contemplations are not even available
> the
in a
> > > practitioner who has yet to attain first path, except perhaps
> > > sort of temporary, facsimile form, if they happen to be among
the
> few
the
> > > who have a natural talent for jhana. The contemplation of the
> mind as
> > > liberated or not liberated, the contemplation of the truth of
> > > cessation, and the contemplation of right concentration, for
> example.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are
> > > contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the
flesh;
> the
or
> > > mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior,
> surpassed
> > > or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated
> not
the
> > > liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
> > > formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening;
> > > truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold
any
> > > doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete
method
> for
had
> > > the attainment of Arhantship.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is a recursive description in this sutta of right
> > > mindfulness as the very contents of this sutta, which before I
> > > thought of as a quaint curiousity, but now I understand it to
be a
> > > brilliant instruction. Having practiced these four
applications of
> > > mindfulness to the point of path and fruition, one returns to
it
> > > again and experiences it in a completely new way. Not to be
trite,
> > > but rather to acknowledge a great truth:
to
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "And the end of all our searching shall be to return
> the
> > > place where we started and know i<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated) - Hi Allan,
> Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
phala appears to support the integration.
Thank you for that response. My understanding of 'phala' has
deepened as a result of this group, various other kalyanamittas and
my own pondering. The dhamma is indeed intricately deep and amazing.
The pitfals are equally mezmerising!
The fruit of the path (phala) is indeed the fruit of dispassion and
letting go. It is the bliss which arises when vijja/wisdom arisen
through the practice is present. It is the shedding of suffering (as
well).
The state that we call 'phala' is indeed the door to nibbana, but
not nibbana itself. The prescence of vijja leans all fabrications
towards their fading away (nirodha), like the powerful gravity of a
blackhole sucking all matter towards itself, into extinction. We can
see the rare and unusual event of the blackhole exerting it's
influence on everything around it, but we can never know what
happens afterwards. The rare and unusual event is 'phala'.
However not even vijja exists in nibbana.
It itself will have to wiped out. Hence nibbana is never a result of
something. It is simply is what is(n't), when everything ceases.
I used to think the complete absence of avijja (and the presence of
vijja) meant that nibbana, in the sense of escape from the whole
field of perception, prevailed. But it is now clear that for vijja
to prevail, the skandas must prevail, because it is one of the
skandas. Hence arahanths dont vanish into nothingness or die the
moment they become enlightened (!), but rather continue in a state
of incredible letting go and renunciation. At their deaths (skanda
parinirvana) there is nothing to give rise to anything further.
The state of phala is very important in that it explains the paticca
samuppada as well. It is significant that the buddha was
contemplating the PS soon after a week of 'the bliss of
enlightenment' - possibly an arahath phala samapatti.
When there is no avijja and when there is vijja in the forefront of
the mind, there is no craving and intentions (sankhara) based on
craving. This means there is no consciousness and the whole string
of perception based on craving and avijja. Such paths of thought
usually end up with attachment (upadana) which gives rise to
further 'arising'. We often see this when something we cling to
arise seemingly out of the blue in our minds. This arising seems to
be bhava - the arising of a bundle of 5 aggregates- if, it arose in
another body would contitute a coming into existence of
psychophysical phenomena of life. Such things are bound to end in
tears!
Phala appears when the insights built upon one another reach their
peak. It is a profound state of letting go -the process starting in
the first instance when revulsion (nibbida) manifests when remnant
craving meets vijja and conflict reuslts. Then the craving is
defeated and viraga/dispassion manifests. Then at even higher stages
of insight nirodha apears- fading away. These are the terms the
Buddha commonly used in the suttas to bescribe the process of
insight, compared to the terms of the 7 purifications, which seems
to be a favourite of ven. Mahakaccayana (I came across him using
these terms twice now, in the Pali!). Anyway, the end stage of the
vipassana process manifests in the turning back of PS. The fading
away of ignorance leads to fading away of ..... and so on.
Anyway, that's it for me for the time being.
If anyone like to take a crack at explaining the 4 types of upadana
and how they lead to becoming, I would like to hear from you. I am
considering giving a talk on the PS soon so I would value your input.
with metta
Matheesha
--- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@...>
wrote:>
my travel intervened. I am now finally back at home for at least 5
> Hi Daniel, and Matheesha-
> I apologize for the delay in responding to your question(s), but
months.>
if or when time permits. I believe you are again in semester and
> Daniel, please, do not feel it a necessity to respond, or do so
probably very busy with your studies.>
the terms wisdom, knowledge, and insight (Insight).
> Truly appreciate your asking for clarification when re my use of
>
it to mean cognitive knowing. 'Wisdom' is the intuitive
> Generally...what I mean when I use the term `knowledge' I mean
understanding of non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion in its
various stages throughout our meditations, and `insight' (small i)
as any number on cognitive or intuitive understandings along the
Path of Purification to Path. 'Insight', with a capital I, is for
Path access/Insight.>
was pointing towards. It is my belief that in order to access the
> Re your #2 (see below) question/statement. You make clear what I
> Insight(s) we have been discussing the pre-requisite insights
and or Path Insights must be realized and integrated into the mind
stream. There is as you clearly point out, more ways than one for
this process to arise. (There is dry and not dry vipassana to name
just two.) Regardless of what way we access Insight it is likely
that the necessary requisites will have to be established, and this
is never more important than for first Path Insight. After Sotapanna
the path towards the next deep Insight appears to become almost
automatic with the nyanas appearing as they must and the yogi's job
simply becomes one in which the "gears" need to be machined to a
very smooth and honed understanding. Each Insight demands deeper and
subtler intuitive understanding of the characteristics of non-greed,
non-aversion, and non-self. Each Insight demands a finer tuning, a
finer grinding, a finer lifting.>
understanding or mental states that arise as a result of a
> I too agree with you, Daniel. I agree that the cognitive
particular insight along the Path of Purification does not have the
same importance as the developmental process that is part of and
which it is built upon. Their real real importance is their linking
with other insights. This linking or as you put it, "shifting
gears", leads the yogi towards maggaphala.>
become easily distracted. It is easy and common for a yogi to get
> This is again especially true for First Path when the yogi can
preoccupied with the manifestation, the pleasantness or
unpleasantness of a particular insight, and get caught in reaction.>
become mature and intuitive, and become harmonious with whichever
>
> In order for the attenuation of greed, hatred and delusion to
Path, the yogi may have to go again and again through some of the
insights for the 'grinding up or down' to take root. Until the yogi
is sufficiently balanced in insight the next Insight will not arise.>
re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
> Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
phala appears to support the integration.>
may have, and or try to make clear where I have been unclear.
> Thank you all for reading this attempt at clarification.
>
> I am available to try and discuss any misunderstanding that I
>
I have one question, and one comment.
> metta to us all! allan
>
> Dear Allan,
> Thank you for your post, your support and your clarifications.
> 1/ You have mentioned the difference between knowledge, wisdom
and insight. Without concern for Pali terms, could you clarify what
you experience to be the differences?> 2/ Your write: It appears that the state I'm calling 'not' the
yogi MUST have the requisites for it to arise in the mind stream.
Equanimity about Formations must be sufficiently mature, there must
also be sufficient understanding of all the insights that precedes
EAF. (The above is a narrow point of view. It arises from the school
that I train in. It is clear that there are other ways to reach this
quality of mind.)> I would be firmer on this point. At present, I do not believe
that there is any way, other than by the progress of insight for the
mind to develop so as to access emptiness. Of course, this progress
can appear quite differently under different circumstances. For
example, Ven Pemasiri used to say for that for yogis who have
already experienced magga-phala, consciousness can go from Knowledge
of Arising and Passing Away to Knowledge of Equanimity Towards
Formation in a single breath. For those who have development in a
previous life, the nyanas can be very subtle and spontaneous,
occuring amongst daily activities and magga-phala can come
spontaneously at the slightest hint of truth. And then of course we
have jhana yogis who have so much mental development already, that
their journey through the stages of insight might be very fast, and
not experienced with all the symptoms of bare insight. There might
be other variation as well. My own insight (wisdom/knowledge ?) is> that the essence of the progress of insight is actually something
subtle, somewhat like shifting gears, as the relatioship between
consciousness and object changes, and consciousness is "tuned"
differently. The insights spoken of for each stage are actually
secondary to this readjustment process, and actually result from
these shifts, and many of the gross symptoms experienced in bare
insight training are actually tertiary manifestations.> "...the state I'm calling 'not' the yogi MUST have the
requisites for it to arise in the mind stream." Indeed. According to
the commentaries, the 37 states pertaining to enlightenment must all
be fulfilled for Path and Fruit to arise: noble eightfold path, five
controlling faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of
enlightenment, the four great efforts, the four noble truths, the
four roads to power, and the four foundations of mindfulness. People
often underestimate just how much a sotapan has achieved! They may
not developed to perfection, or permanently fixed in development
but still, what a journey!> With metta,
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>