Dear Culladasa,
I am interested in hearing your understanding of paticcasamuppada in
view of this experience of 'phala'.
with metta
Matheesha
--- In
jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
>
> Hello Allan,
>
> Thank you for your comments, and I agree with all you say about
the nature of phala/ nibbana. Your cautious and conservative approach
definitely helps to keep a balance in these discussions, and keeps us
from engaging in runaway esotericism.
>
> I'll expand on what you've said just a bit to say that the yogi
should always be cautious in the
evaluation of any experience that he
or she might be tempted to label as magga/ phala/ nibbana. As we well
know, meditative states, pharmaceuticals, intense emotional states,
and wishful thinking and self-delusion can all trigger the mind to
generate powerful psychoemotional events. Genuine magga/ phala/
nibbana events are best evaluated on the basis of their short and
long-term residual effects rather than their subjective qualities,
and that does not include an "Oh, wow, that was so wonderful and
amazing!" residual effect. The subjective qualities of such
experiences, other than the purely cognitive, seem to be highly
variable and are at best irrelevant to an evaluation of the
experience as genuine or not.
>
> You said with regard to the particular experiences under
discussion that:
> "When equanimity and concentration, and the yogi is
balanced in the 7 Factors of Enlightenment many states
of
'absorption' of extraordinary calm and beauty do arise. This,
however, is not phala or Nibbana, even though they can be confused
for such."
>
> I think you may have missed an important element of Daniel's and
Matheesha's descriptions and Culadasa's description of his retreat
experience, which is that absorption was not present. Also, it seems
doubtful that any of these yogi's would mistake experiences of calm
and beauty, etc for emptiness/ nibbana. Your comment can be taken as
directed specifically at Culadasa's non-retreat experience, which was
an absorption, and I can only say that it is an evaluation based on
previous experiences of what are sincerely believed to have been
phala and non-phala jhanas. I cannot rule out the possibility that
this is just the latest in a series of misinterpretations, and if so
can only hope that delusion will soon give way to knowledge. What I
am most interested in is your
comment that:
>
> "...phala... can arise spontaneously if/when the mind is
ripe in relatively everyday situations."
>
> Here it sounds as if you yourself may have had, or may at least
have heard or read about, spontaneously arising phala in everyday
situations. This is the core of this topic, and so I would very much
appreciate hearing more on that if you are willing to share.
>
> Thank you again for your invaluable contributions to all of these
discussions.
>
> Culadasa
>
> Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@. ..> wrote:
> Greetings all-
> My, we are getting into some esoteric territory.
>
> Let me weigh in a bit here.
>
> I understand phala or nibbana as states of 'consciousness' where
there is no object except nibbana. There are no objects to remember,
there is no memory, there is nothing to remember save for the 'rest'
and 'happiness'
that arise secondary to resting in phala. It can
arise spontaneously if/when the mind is ripe in relatively everyday
situations. I do not want to speculate beyond a crack in door of this
type of practice.
>
> The kinds of 'half turning' etc. that is being discussed sorta
resonates with me too, but from a slightly different perspective.
When equanimity and concentration, and the yogi is balanced in the 7
Factors of Enlightenment many states of 'absorption' of extraordinary
calm and beauty do arise. This, however, is not phala or Nibbana,
even though they can be confused for such.
>
> A yogi who trains in phala becomes much more adept at 'feeling'
ones own progression towards, into and out of phala, but the
experience itself is just NOT.
>
> Of course, these ruminations are incomplete both theoretically
and practically. I am not fully enlightened, or expertly trained at
the level of my
Insight, and therefore can be a little dense in these
areas of discussion.
>
> metta to us all, allan
>
>
>
> Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
> Hello Daniel,
>
> It is unfortunate that you cannot recall the writer who discussed
this matter, and the sutta he referenced, as it might have been
helpful. But what I am discussing here is not a speculation based on
an interpretation of scriptures. It is the other way around, it is an
interpretation of experience for which the suttas may serve as a
guide and can perhaps help to avoid misinterpretation.
>
> Yes, I am referring to personal experiences and yes, I am
comfortable sharing them here and comparing them with Matheesha and
your related experiences.
>
> You describe:
>
> "a state of consciousness in which emptiness and sensory
awareness coexist... the same very rapid "rotation" or
"turning
inside out" of consciousness that would normally lead to absorption
into voidness begins, but does not complete itself."
>
> I have had a very similar experience occurring repeatedly during
the last few days of a retreat. There was this difference, though,
between my experience and what you have described. Whereas you have
said:
>
> "... instead of the mind dissolving into its own transparency, it
is as if consciousness rotates only half way and become stuck
with "half" experiencing sensory reality and "half" experiencing a
timeless spaceless transparent purity"
>
> In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory reality
was not present except for a distinct sensation of separateness from
the void, because of which absorption did not occur. The form in
which consciousness of ordinary reality persisted was the sense of
being a separate observer, and of existing in
spatial locality. No
other aspect remained.
>
> Matheesha describes:
>
> "what feels like phalacitta overlapped during waking
consciousness. It feels like an internal turning away from the
senses - of conciousness established on nibbana, but in a temporary
manner."
>
> I notice that these three are very similar, differing only in
that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to shift but
there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention, and
both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence of
sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/ phalacitta,
while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from namarupa to
nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into nibbana
does not occur.
>
> There is a fourth kind of experience, one that I have had only
three times so far, all very recently, and which I had
specifically
in mind with that earlier posting. These experiences did not take
place in retreat but rather while engaged in normal activities. In
each case I was either actually contemplating some aspect of dhamma
in the moment it occured, or else had been doing so immediately
beforehand. I don't know whether there is any significance to that
fact or not, since that is what I tend to be doing most of the time
anyway. But these are the characteristics that are most definitely of
significance:
> 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense objects
and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts it, with
complete absorption;
> 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two times;
> 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the state
of
absorption;
> 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory awareness
during the event, following the period of absorption there was a
recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place during
the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as if I
were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
remembering a scene from a movie.
> 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex could
have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had continued.
>
> I have often wondered what the state of an Arahant's
consciousness would be like, and it is my opinion that all of these
experiences, Daniel's, Matheesha's, and Culadasa's are strong
pointers towards the possibility of what that may be like. Leaving
aside my retreat experience, I can easily imagine that all three of
these other experiences are representative of transcendental states
that are
sustainable in the `world', and so can account for how a
Buddha might dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in the
world.
>
> You ask:
>
> "
how do we find our way to understanding what such an
experience actually is apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal
preferences. "
>
> This is always the most important question, and all I can say is
that subjectively the experience was unquestionably phala samapatti,
spontaneous and brief though it was, and that the aftermath verified
the experience as just that as well. I find the Thervada tradition to
have very little to say about the higher Paths and Arahantship, and
while the Mahayana discounts the Arahant as a lesser realization,
there are no shortage of references to a Buddha or a "fully
enlightened being" dwelling continuously in Nirvana while the
Nirmanakaya functions on this plane to teach and to guide the rest of
us out
of suffering.
>
> Two last thoughts on the foregoing. Entirely without any
scholastic or philosophical justification, I have always discounted
the Mahayana idea of the Arahant as a lesser realization, and have
likewise ignored any Theravadin suggestions that the Arahant might
represent an intermediate stage between the Anagamin and Buddhahood.
In my personal cosmology an Arahant = a Buddha, and a Buddha is an
Arahant, and the historical Buddha was a Sammasambuddha endowed with
certain special abilities vis-a-vis teaching the rest of us, but does
not otherwise represent a higher level of spiritual attainment. I am
open to being educated on this point, and if I can be made to clearly
understand the difference I might modify the language I have used in
the preceding paragraphs. But the bottom line is an aspiration to
Buddhahood, whether that is the same as Arahant or not, and it only
seems reasonable to me that
a Buddha has direct experience of
Ultimate Reality, panna, even while the fleshly
> corpse continues to be animated for the benefit of all sentient
beings.
>
> I am in your debt and in your service.
> Culadasa
>
>
> Daniel <drbf2@...> wrote:
> Dear Culadasa,
>
> I recall reading years ago a Theravada writer that put forth the
same position you propose, that the phala cittas of the arhant could
be present during sensory consciousness. I do not remember that
author's name. He quoted as his authority a sutta passage that
mentioned the consciousness of the arhant as being bright and
limitless, or something like that. I am sorry for being so vague but
I no longer remember where to find this information. At any rate you
said:
>
> "it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana as his
or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
recently,"
>
> What is it that makes you so certain now? If you are referring to
a personal experience, would you feel comfortable sharing it here.
You said:
>
> "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and mind
continue to function completely normally to all outward appearances.
After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a memory
record such that the events that occurred on the sense plane during
the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of what
the state of the Arahat may be like."
>
> In the last few years I have
occasionally experienced a state of
consciousness in which emptiness and sensory awareness coexist. I am
not however so confident as to call this a type of phala. To describe
it briefly, the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning inside out" of
consciousness that would normally lead to absorption into voidness
begins, but does not complete itself. So instead of the mind
dissolving into its own transparency, it is as if consciousness
rotates only half way and become stuck with "half" experiencing
sensory reality and "half" experiencing a timeless spaceless
transparent purity. I do remember the first time this happened,
the "sensory" part of "me" was surprised and really did feel as if I
had gotten stuck. This event of course makes samsaric reality appear
to be something akin to a film projection on the surface of soap
bubble. The same basic state comes from time to time, and can vary as
to its "flavor" ie. more or less
tranquility, more or
> less radiance, more or less happiness etc.
>
> Having said all this I must also say that at the time I had been
doing two months of samatha practice and several weeks with the
nimittas of the formless jhanas just prior to the sathipathana
practice that lead to this experience. So was this just a
samatha "thang" some after affects of staring into the nothingness of
the 3rd arupa jhana nimitta? Or was it an insight thing, or just one
of the many interesting and uncatalogued by products of deep
practice? I don't know of anyone who can give an answer to this
question. It just is what it is, however, amongst those things that
it is, it is impermanent, and therefore under suspicion. At least for
now J
>
> So why am I saying all this? Because the developed mind is
capable of so many interesting states. If someone were having an
experience that would qualify to fit the criteria
for the one you are
mentioning:
>
> "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
activities"
>
> Well, how would we know? I am not saying it is not so, but how do
we find our way to understanding what such an experience actually is
apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal preferences. Perhaps you
have Vajrayana or Mahayana teachings to help you with understanding
such things, but as far as I know, the Theravada says nothing about
this officially and I am unaware of any oral tradition that speaks of
this.
>
> Thank your for listening,
>
> Daniel B.
>
> --- In
jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
Daniel,
> >
> > My conversation with Dhammanando was meant to be open to
everyone, so thank you for joining in. My reply will only address
single point as I am 'on the road' at the moment, and I hope to be
able to respond to other of your comments in the next few days.
> >
> > As for the ice and water metaphor, it serves in several ways. One
of which is that ice and water are both H2O, and in that same way,
consciousness is consciousness, but there is a shift to a profoundly
different state of consciousness at magga-phala and phala samapatti
just as there is a shift in state from water to ice. They are the
same, yet completely different at the same time.
> >
> > The ordinary consciousness of the sotapan or the sakadagami or
even anagami is still vinnana, it still takes nama and rupa as its
objects. Vinnana is vinnana, "although with [more or] less force or
with more [or
less] transparency. " But the consciousness at magga-
phala and phala samapatti is distinctly different, it is not vinnana
(and some have suggested that panna might be the better word to use
for this consciousness) , and it does not take nama and rupa as
object.
> >
> > And so you say "Even an arhant in his or her daily sensory
consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in the
magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-phala and
phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed in
Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not compatible with
sensory or bodily functioning. " (I notice you have qualified this
statement by saying "magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower
paths" and I wonder whether you mean by that all three lower paths as
compared to the Arahant, or only the first two, because this does
bear somewhat on the issue I am
trying to clarify here with regard to
the consciousness of an Arahant.)
> >
> > The difficulty is, as you say, that magga-phala and phala
samapatti are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed
in sunnata, and so
> > - since it is the very fact that the consciousness that arises in
magga-phala and phala samapatti directly knows sunnata that
distinguishes it from the ordinary consciousness called vinnana (that
takes materiality and mentality as its object and is thus imprisoned
by it), and furthermore;
> > - since the defining characteristic of the jhanic state is that
the consciousness is completely withdrawn from anything other than
the specific object of jhana,
> > it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an Arahant
could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana as his or her
daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until recently,
although I have from time to time encountered suggestions to the
contrary.
> >
> > So at this point I would like to expand the metaphor of water and
ice to include the dimension of temperature. There can be different
degrees within a single state. Water can exist over a great range of
temperatures and still remain water, and so can ice exist at a great
range of temperatures while still remaining ice. The same appears to
be true of these mind states.
> >
> > As we know, there is a very definite difference between the
ordinary consciousness, the vinnana of the non-ariyan and the
sotapan, sakadagami, or anagami, and likewise there is a difference
in the vinnana of these lower path stages as compared to each other.
This corresponds to temperature in the metaphore. I am suggesting
that perhaps there is also a similar difference in the consciousness
that knows nibanna, the phala samapatti
consciousness of the Arahant
as compared to that of the lower Paths, and it is such that it
permits a Buddha to dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in
the world.
> >
> > There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and mind
continue to function completely normally to all outward appearances.
After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a memory
record such that the events that occured on the sense plane during
the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of what
the state of the Arahat may be like. As you may notice upon
reflection, the one who dwells in nibbana while functioning in the
world would be
absolutely free of any vestige of attachment to a
separate existence of any kind, on any plane.
> >
> > Your shared thoughts nourish my understanding. Thank you. I hope
that I can offer you something of some value in return.
> > Culadasa
> >
> > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
> >
> > Dear Culadasa,
> > I hope you don't mind if I insert myself into your conversation
with the Ven. Dhammadhino. As always your posts, being of
considerable weightiness, require a serious response. So I will try
to share my reflections with you regarding some of your points. I
find these back-and-forths to be both clarifying and edifiying. Thank
you so much for taking the time and the trouble.
> >
> > "I suppose in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion
of 7 years or less to Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic."
> >
> > So did I until I met Taungpulu
Sayadaw. I learned from hanging
with him, that there is a whole other dimension of help that a truly
great yogi can give. I am not sure how to explain it, whether it is a
type of psychic power, or a hugely expanded subtle body, or whatever,
but there is a very palpable power that extents around a being of
great realization that supports the yogi from within by permeating
his entire being and bringing stillness, peace and power into the
disciples mind, and drawing him in the right direction, like an inner
magnet. When you practice within range of this aura, you find
yourself capable of so much more than you would otherwise. Just being
in the presence of such a being is a transformational growth
experience. I remember that people who know noting about meditation
or Buddhism would sometimes come to see Taungpulu, and sitting in
silence they would begin to weep so deep and powerful was the
stillness and the love that
radiated around him. Dipa
> > Ma, who spoke no English, I remember would look at me with great
love and simply reach into my mind and adjust my consciousness to
make whatever trouble I was having in my practice disappear. If these
teachers had that kind of power, I cannot even imagine what it must
have been like to sit in the presence of the Buddha. Seen in this
way, seven years although exceptional become believable.
Interestingly, along these lines, you might remember how the suttas
often say that such and such a bhikkhu attains to final knowledge "in
no long time." The commentaries say that "no long time" means within
12 years.
> >
> > At any rate, there are many "unofficial truths" in the living
tradition of the Theravada that cannot be justified in the suttas or
the commentaries. Every one knows them, but they don't talk about
them. For example there is an entire oral tradition about such
things
as the progress of insight, teaching by balancing the five
controlling faculties, finer points of jhana training etc. that does
not exist in writing anywhere.
> >
> > "And so, if I infer correctly with regard to the consciousness of
an Arahant, the mindfulness of the Arahant is, at all times, of one
kind with that of the Stream Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner
during their experience of magga and phala."
> >
> > I think I see what you are trying to do with the ice and water
metaphor: so show how mindfulness, and consciousness with the other
factors evolves to become "denser" as we progress from stage to stage
such that what was exceptional before now becomes natural. I do agree
with this in a general way. For example I carry within myself a more
or less constant level of awareness of the three signs of being all
day long, that does not require effort. The Dhamma to some
extent has
become part of me in a way that would not have been possible twenty
years ago. However, it still lacks the intensity and clarity that
come when samadhi and viriya are developed by stronger continuity of
practice. Now as to what you stated above, if by magga you mean path
development, and by phala you mean the result of that then I would
agree. However, if you are using these words in the commentarial
sense of magga-phala and phala, then I don't see it. Even an arhant
in his or her daily sensory
> > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in
the magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-phala
and phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed
in Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not compatible
with sensory or bodily functioning.
> >
> >
> > "On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter three when
they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling in
fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to awakening who
has yet to achieve either."
> >
> >
> > Perhaps this is true as regards to insight in a general way as I
described my own experience above, but even the sotapan or the
sakadagami who has lost the concentration of retreat or regular daily
practice will experience mundane mind states in a more or less
ordinary way, although with less force or with more transparency. But
still nothing close to the shift experienced in deep retreat practice
by those without attainments. As best as I understand this, the
really powerful shift in consciousness comes with the internalization
of jhanic factors that the yogi must accomplish to attain the path of
anagami. Here is a sutta that helps to illustrate my meaning:
> >
> > 3. "Mahanama, there is still a state
unabandoned by you
internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and
delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already
abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life,
you would not be enjoying sensual plea­sures. It is because that
state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home
life and enjoying sensual pleasures.
> > 4. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually
is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little
gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the
dan­ger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the
rapture and pleasure that are apart from sen­sual pleasures,
apart from unwholesome states,or to something more peaceful than
that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a
noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom
how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering,
and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains
to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures,
apart form unwholesome states, or to soething more peaceful than
that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures.
> > Notes: Mahanama was a sakadagami who had long ago attained the
path of once returner. He was puzzled as to why unwholesome states
sill appeared in his mind. In his case the chief defilement seems to
have been desire for sensual pleasures. This sutta demonstrates how
noble disciples can have misunderstandings as to their attainments.
It also demonstrates how sakadagamis do not nec­essarily have
even the lower jhanas, and how the Buddha recommended jhana training
to house­holders interested in attaining the higher paths and
fruits. It also is suggestive of the importance
of jhana training for
some people in the attainment of the path of anagami.
> > Culadukkhakhandha Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of
Suffering; MN 14:3-4
> >
> >
> > "For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the flesh; the
mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior, surpassed
or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated or not
liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening; the
truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold any
doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete method for
the attainment of Arhantship. "
> >
> > I am sure that we can agree that these contemplations are exactly
the same as those outlined in the suttas for the practice of
samatha-
vipassana that the Buddha specifically recommends for the attainment
of the higher paths. I do not have one on hand, but the typical
pattern as put forth in the suttas is that the yogi emerges from the
jhana, and then observes the mental factors present and watches as
they pass away. He then goes up to the next higher jhana and repeats
the process and so forth. Here is another quote from the suttas, one
of my favorites that describes the process of samatha-vipassana in a
way that specifically aims at the transition from sakadagami to
anagami, and interestingly includes as objects of mindfulness all the
five aggregates. What this means for me is that the entire
satipathana process remains helpful to the yogi developing the path
to anagami, only he is doing so with jhana as its basis.
> >
> > 9."And what, Ananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of
the five lower fetters? Here, with
seclusion from objects of
attachment, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the
com­plete tranquilization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from
sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters
upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied
and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
> > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception,
formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent,
as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a calamity, a
an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, and as not self.
He turns his mind away from hose states, and directs it toward the
deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the
sub­lime, that is, the stilling of all formation, the
relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.
Standing upon that, he attains the
destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction
of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhmma, that
delight in the Dhamma, with the destruction of the five lower fetters
he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and
there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that world.
This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower
> > fetters.
> > Note: This is repeated for each of the eight jhanas.
> > Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta: The Greater Discourse to Malunkya; MN
64:9
> >
> > And I don't mean just in the West. This has been going on for a
very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of the world. The
result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the ignorant, and we
are like the blind leading the blind. I have found a lot of nonsense
as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and
Tika of the Theravada and the
same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-Tibetan tradition as
well.
> >
> > Don't even get me going on this one! This is indeed a terrible
situation, and one of the very best reasons we have to get the "good
stuff" down in writing and publish it publicly. For this reason I am
writing my book (slowly I admit) and so are you I believe. But we
really need to take the core of practical teaching out of the closet
of secrecy that allows for all this nonsense to develop. Things
fester in the dark. Many people erroneously believe that there is no
secret teaching in Theravada Buddhism. This is not true. Why for
example is the Mahasi teacher's manual not published, but passed on
in secrecy? Every Theravada lineage that I have ever known has the
same attitude of secrecy and communication on "need to know basis
only." This encourages student dependency, creates a better market
for teachers, allows for all sorts of misunderstanding and
distortions of the teaching, and puts the practical Dhamma at risk of
being lost in the world. I find it all the more
> > appalling in that many Theravada teachers pretend that there are
no secret teachings in this tradition. This is usually said as a
deprecating reference to Hindu or Tibetan teachers that have secret
teachings. At least these traditions are honest about it!
> >
> >
> > And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who don't
know what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly growing
number of people with genuine realization who don't know how to teach
others what they have learned themselves.
> >
> >
> > How sad and how true. I believe that the best way around this is
to publish our best understanding of both practice and teaching
processes. The more substantial teachings will
withstand the test of
time, and time will reveal those who really know their stuff.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your patience, may you be happy, healthy and safe!
> >
> >
> > Daniel Boutemy
> >
> > --- In
jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa culadasa@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Venerable Dhammanando,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for clarifying this. It is very helpful.
> > >
> > > This confirms Daniel's original attempt at translating this
passage, and explains also what the Atthakatha excerpt that he
located was indicating. Since your knowledge of Pali and access to
Pali language resources appears to be so much better than ours, can
you please tell us more about 'sati' as a form of the verb 'to be'?
Also, do you happen to know the meaning
of the word 'aparikkhine'
that is used in the Atthakatha? I had thought it meant something like
observation, or examination, but cannot locate it in any dictionary,
and given that sati as used here is not mindfulness, that meaning no
longer makes much sense either.
> > >
> > > I would like to share with all of you where I have gone with
this since first posting my query. It began with an error of
translation on my part because I had neither encountered 'añña'
before in its meaning of 'perfect knowledge', and so mistook it for
its much more common usage as a disjunctive, nor was I aware of this
other meaning of 'sati'. But it set in motion a process that has been
productive of a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sutta.
> > >
> > > Although I'd never reflected upon it at any length, I suppose
in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion of 7 years or
less to
Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic. I think Blake may have
expressed the thoughts of many of us when he asked, "Did the
attainments in the suttas get exaggerated over the years, or are we
now doing something wrong in our practice?" And then also, it seems
that I had mostly thought of the practices of the
Mahasattipatthanasu tta in terms of the lower path challenges and
attainments anyway, and of course one only sees what one looks at!
> > >
> > > But William's comments planted a thorn in my mind such that I
kept returning to this issue, trying to penetrate this mystery a
little more deeply. It is indeed this thing that we call mindfulness,
and mindfulness alone, that is of the essence of awakening at every
stage of the Path. And by the way, William, it was not at all my
intention to suggest that the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer is
the ultimate development of mindfulness, because this is
quite
obviously not so. It was a clumsy attempt on my part to formulate a
statement of alternatives at the level of 2nd Path versus 3rd Path
while assuming the word sati had been used in the sutta to mean
mindfulness. 'Fully developed' was intended to apply very
specifically to the quality of mindfulness of the Once-Returner. But
I would like to point out that, while the mindfulness of the Arhant
is different from the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer, it is also
very much the same. Ice is ice at -10 C or at -100 C, although
> > > it is also different at those two temperatures. The mindfulness
that takes nibbana as object is as different from the mindfulness
that takes rupa, sankhara and namarupa as object, as ice is different
from water. I find the phase change of matter to provide a good
metaphor for that difference. And so, if I infer correctly with
regard to the consciousness of an Arahant, the mindfulness
of the
Arahant is, at all times, of one kind with that of the Stream
Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner during their experience of
magga and phala. On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter
three when they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling
in fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to awakening
who has yet to achieve either. And so just as either ice or water can
exist over a range of temperatures, water is still water and ice is
still ice.
> > >
> > > This metaphor, as with all metaphors, falls down at some point.
But when I returned to the Mahasatipatthanasut ta to seek the answer
within the source of the question, the obvious began to leap out at
me. The contemplations as perfomed by the non-ariyan aspirant to
Stream-Entry take one form. After first path, they take another, and
so on. Some of these contemplations are not even available to the
practitioner who has yet to attain first path, except perhaps in a
sort of temporary, facsimile form, if they happen to be among the few
who have a natural talent for jhana. The contemplation of the mind as
liberated or not liberated, the contemplation of the truth of
cessation, and the contemplation of right concentration, for example.
> > >
> > > For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the flesh; the
mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior, surpassed
or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated or not
liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening; the
truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold any
doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete method for
the attainment of Arhantship.
> > >
> > > There is a recursive description in this sutta of right
mindfulness as the very contents of this sutta, which before I had
thought of as a quaint curiousity, but now I understand it to be a
brilliant instruction. Having practiced these four applications of
mindfulness to the point of path and fruition, one returns to it
again and experiences it in a completely new way. Not to be trite,
but rather to acknowledge a great truth:
> > >
> > > "And the end of all our searching shall be to return to the
place where we started and know it for the first time."
> > > -T.S. Eliot
> > >
> > > Personally for me, it is a rather remarkable coincidence that a
particular juxtaposition of words, with alternative meanings that
worked together in a certain way, occured in this sutta the way that
it has. It is as though it were lying in wait for 2500
years so that
I might stumble upon it when I needed to, and so has launched a
search that yielded a treasure I have been searching for for months
(or perhaps years, without knowing it).
> > >
> > > As for Blake's question about why it seems to take so much
longer now to reach these goals than it seemingly once did, this has
been very much on my mind as well. I sincerely believe that the
teaching has degenerated in the sense that we have the words, but we
don't have their meanings, and these same words have been interpreted
and reinterpreted over and over again by those who have sharp
intellects but lack the genuine understanding that comes only with
real experience. And I don't mean just in the West. This has been
going on for a very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of
the world. The result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the
ignorant, and we are like the blind leading the
blind. I have found a
lot of nonsense as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and Tika of the
Theravada and the same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-
Tibetan tradition as well. I am not trying so much to justify my
willingness to question the traditional texts as to
> > > explain it. And I hope everyone who has followed this
discussion will appreciate the importance of not just challenging
traditional interpretations, but also of remaining open to the
possibility of being mistaken when doing so.
> > >
> > > Alan brings us the good news, and I can vouch for it myself,
that, "We now have teachers in the East (and the occasionally the
West) who offer teachings both in samatha and vipassana in ways that
will, with fair probability, take a meditator to some levels of
realization and or to deep jhana. The time is now over where a
Westerner is obliged to study watered down vipassana or
samatha
taught by lay western teachers who may or may not have any
understanding of what they are teaching, or for that matter, have the
training/competence to teach." But we still have a long way to go.
And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who don't know
what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly growing number of
people with genuine realization who don't know how to teach others
what they have learned themselves.
> > >
> > > By the way, for those of you who are interested, there is a
very interesting article by Donald Swearer entitled Two Types of
Saving Knowledge in the Pali Suttas, in Pholosophy East and West, Vol
22, #4 (Oct 1972). I came across it while searching for uses of añña
as 'perfect knowledge', and it is well worth a read.
> > >
> > &
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