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Re: [jhana_insight] Culadasa plays catch-up Part III

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  • Culadasa
    Hello Matheesha and All, You said at one point: “I am interested in hearing your understanding of paticcasamuppada in view of this experience of phala .”
    Message 1 of 101 , Feb 1, 2008
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      Hello Matheesha and All,
       
       
      You said at one point: “I am interested in hearing your understanding of paticcasamuppada in view of this experience of 'phala'.”
       
       
      To do so, I had better first describe my understanding of paticcasamuppada as it relates to ordinary experience. For the sake of this discussion, let us set the resolving power for paticcasamuppada at the level of describing the mental processes involved in individual perceptual events.
       
       
      At the outset of such an event, consciousness and its object, vinnana and namarupa, arise together, conditioned by previous such events in the stream of consciousness, vinnana-sota. The object is first directly cognized as a sensation (rupa), and then through an act of perception it becomes known as an object of a specific kind (nama) belonging to a particular class of sense objects known by means of contact with a specific sense organ (ayatana and phassa) and associated with some particular affective quality (vedana). This act of perception is conditioned by the many previous cognitive events out of which the entire complex of existing mental formations (sankharas), now present within and characterizing this mind, has been generated. Thus the object is re-cognized on the basis of these formations, and so also feeling (vedana) has two sources, arising both from the initial sensation (rupa) and from the mental reaction to the perception (nama).
       
       
      The above is the sequence of vinnana paccaya nama-rupam, nama-rupam paccaya salayatanum, salayatanum paccaya phasso, phassa paccaya vedana. Collectively this represents the passive-resultant portion of the conscious perceptual event. The very occurrence of this perception, before anything else happens in the next part of the sequence, has already begun to have a conditioning effect on future such conscious perceptual events, because it now becomes part of the complex of mental formations that will be present in future. Through the act of perception, the ground has also been set for the subsequent process of reification of object and observer in the active-intentional segment of the perceptual event.
       
       
      Next the mind reacts to the feeling that has arisen by craving (tanha), specifically the craving for future events in which the object and the associated feeling are either present or absent. The strength of that craving is conditioned by the strength of the feeling, and also by that existing complex of mental formations, which are themselves the result of similar past events in the stream of consciousness. Craving then provides the motive force for and leads to the full reification of both the object of the craving and the subjective self that craves, and this reification is in the form of clinging (upadana) to these formations as being real in and of themselves. At this point everything has come together to generate another conscious perceptual event in the future, the determining basis of which will be the complex of mental formations which now includes the reified object and subjective self, and the specific volitional formation (cetana sankhara) that has been generated to fulfill the craving. This coming together of conditions is ‘becoming’, bhava.
       
       
      This sequence of vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadanam, upadana paccaya bhavo is the active-intentional segment that completes the sequence of paticcasamuppada for this particular event. Craving arose because of ignorance (avijja) of the impermanence, emptiness, and unsatisfactoriness of the perceived phenomena and self. The reification of these - the self and the world of objects and the volitional intention that was generated out of craving - are now the causal formations (sankharas) that form the basis for future conscious perceptual events that will arise. Thus we can see that this sequence is equivalent to avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnanam as the portion of the current event that causally determines a future event, just as it was the portion of a previous event that causally determined the present event.
       
       
      Now, if a yogi is practicing one or another of the many forms of vipassana meditation, this sequence is repeated over and over again just as above. But because the yogi is doing an insight practice, the mental formations that condition perception in the first segment of each current cycle will now include volitional formations related to attaining insight into the three characteristics that have been generated in the active-intentional segments of the preceding perceptual events. As practice continues, insight knowledge becomes more and more firmly established as a conditioning factor of the mental formations.
       
       
      Of course, the insight knowledge that must become established before the mind will turn to nibbana is insight into all three characteristics, even though the yogi’s practice may focus primarily on only one. In other words, insight into anatta and sunnata is not enough by itself, because tanha and upadana can still find purchase in any vestige of remaining ignorance regarding anicca or dukkha. Likewise, insight into anicca alone or dukkha alone will not suffice. The contemplation of any of the three will serve as an entrance to insight, and mature insight knowledge completely encompasses all three: what is anicca is dukkha, and what is anicca and dukkha cannot be atta and so on. As the intuitive understanding of one develops it leads to an understanding of the others as well.
       
       
      As insight knowledge into the three characteristics deepens and matures, it gives rise to a profound equanimity towards these formations, towards the namarupa and vedana of the passive-resultant phase of paticcasamuppada. In sankharupekkha, insight knowledge (vipassana-panna) replaces ignorance (avijja) and equanimity (upekkha) replaces craving (tanha), until at some point the generative force of tanha becomes so diminished that the volitional formations (cetana sankhara) barely perpetuate paticcasamuppada from one moment to the next. At this point sankharupekkha lapses into the life continuum (bhavanga), and the content of the next conscious perceptual event is derived from this vast storehouse of causal potency accumulated ‘since beginningless time’ – in other words, it is something not directly derived from the immediately preceding series of perceptual events. The sankhara present in the next conscious perceptual event that arises are greeted with the same insight knowledge and equanimity as before, but this time it is accompanied by a profound realization that this very formation is impermanence, or that it is suffering, or that it is emptiness. With this realization the mind turns 180 degrees away from craving, and paticcasamuppada is interrupted at this point. Turning away from impermanence, the mind turns instead towards signlessness (animitta-dhatu), non-hankering (appanahita-dhatu), or emptiness (sunnata-dhatu), and thus emerges by means of one of these three from insight to nibbana.
       
       
      This is what is being described in the quote from the Mahavedalla Sutta that Daniel gave us:
      "Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind."
       
       
      When the realization that accompanies perception of the object is the knowledge of impermanence, the mind turns away from craving and there is “non-attention to all signs”, non-attention to all appearance of permanence. When consciousness turns away from the appearance of permanence, it obtains the “signless element” of nibbana, and thus the “signless deliverance” has occurred.
       
       
      As far as I have been able to determine, it happens the same way whether it is the nibbana of magga or the nibbana of phala. Then after some period of the direct experience of nibbana, the mind will lapse into bhavanga once again, and a new perceptual moment arises as before. The complex of mental formations in this event and all subsequent events in the stream of consciousness now includes the imprint of the nibbana experience, although it may not always be accessible to memory (see my last post for more on this point).
       
       
      Please accept this explanation in the spirit of service with which it is offered.
      Culadasa


      matheesha <dhammachat@...> wrote:
      Dear Culladasa,

      I am interested in hearing your understanding of paticcasamuppada in
      view of this experience of 'phala'.

      with metta

      Matheesha

      --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Allan,
      >
      > Thank you for your comments, and I agree with all you say about
      the nature of phala/ nibbana. Your cautious and conservative approach
      definitely helps to keep a balance in these discussions, and keeps us
      from engaging in runaway esotericism.
      >
      > I'll expand on what you've said just a bit to say that the yogi
      should always be cautious in the evaluation of any experience that he
      or she might be tempted to label as magga/ phala/ nibbana. As we well
      know, meditative states, pharmaceuticals, intense emotional states,
      and wishful thinking and self-delusion can all trigger the mind to
      generate powerful psychoemotional events. Genuine magga/ phala/
      nibbana events are best evaluated on the basis of their short and
      long-term residual effects rather than their subjective qualities,
      and that does not include an "Oh, wow, that was so wonderful and
      amazing!" residual effect. The subjective qualities of such
      experiences, other than the purely cognitive, seem to be highly
      variable and are at best irrelevant to an evaluation of the
      experience as genuine or not.
      >
      > You said with regard to the particular experiences under
      discussion that:
      > "When equanimity and concentration, and the yogi is
      balanced in the 7 Factors of Enlightenment many states
      of 'absorption' of extraordinary calm and beauty do arise. This,
      however, is not phala or Nibbana, even though they can be confused
      for such."
      >
      > I think you may have missed an important element of Daniel's and
      Matheesha's descriptions and Culadasa's description of his retreat
      experience, which is that absorption was not present. Also, it seems
      doubtful that any of these yogi's would mistake experiences of calm
      and beauty, etc for emptiness/ nibbana. Your comment can be taken as
      directed specifically at Culadasa's non-retreat experience, which was
      an absorption, and I can only say that it is an evaluation based on
      previous experiences of what are sincerely believed to have been
      phala and non-phala jhanas. I cannot rule out the possibility that
      this is just the latest in a series of misinterpretations, and if so
      can only hope that delusion will soon give way to knowledge. What I
      am most interested in is your comment that:
      >
      > "...phala... can arise spontaneously if/when the mind is
      ripe in relatively everyday situations."
      >
      > Here it sounds as if you yourself may have had, or may at least
      have heard or read about, spontaneously arising phala in everyday
      situations. This is the core of this topic, and so I would very much
      appreciate hearing more on that if you are willing to share.
      >
      > Thank you again for your invaluable contributions to all of these
      discussions.
      >
      > Culadasa
      >
      > Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@. ..> wrote:
      > Greetings all-
      > My, we are getting into some esoteric territory.
      >
      > Let me weigh in a bit here.
      >
      > I understand phala or nibbana as states of 'consciousness' where
      there is no object except nibbana. There are no objects to remember,
      there is no memory, there is nothing to remember save for the 'rest'
      and 'happiness' that arise secondary to resting in phala. It can
      arise spontaneously if/when the mind is ripe in relatively everyday
      situations. I do not want to speculate beyond a crack in door of this
      type of practice.
      >
      > The kinds of 'half turning' etc. that is being discussed sorta
      resonates with me too, but from a slightly different perspective.
      When equanimity and concentration, and the yogi is balanced in the 7
      Factors of Enlightenment many states of 'absorption' of extraordinary
      calm and beauty do arise. This, however, is not phala or Nibbana,
      even though they can be confused for such.
      >
      > A yogi who trains in phala becomes much more adept at 'feeling'
      ones own progression towards, into and out of phala, but the
      experience itself is just NOT.
      >
      > Of course, these ruminations are incomplete both theoretically
      and practically. I am not fully enlightened, or expertly trained at
      the level of my Insight, and therefore can be a little dense in these
      areas of discussion.
      >
      > metta to us all, allan
      >
      >
      >
      > Culadasa <culadasa@.. .> wrote:
      > Hello Daniel,
      >
      > It is unfortunate that you cannot recall the writer who discussed
      this matter, and the sutta he referenced, as it might have been
      helpful. But what I am discussing here is not a speculation based on
      an interpretation of scriptures. It is the other way around, it is an
      interpretation of experience for which the suttas may serve as a
      guide and can perhaps help to avoid misinterpretation.
      >
      > Yes, I am referring to personal experiences and yes, I am
      comfortable sharing them here and comparing them with Matheesha and
      your related experiences.
      >
      > You describe:
      >
      > "a state of consciousness in which emptiness and sensory
      awareness coexist... the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning
      inside out" of consciousness that would normally lead to absorption
      into voidness begins, but does not complete itself."
      >
      > I have had a very similar experience occurring repeatedly during
      the last few days of a retreat. There was this difference, though,
      between my experience and what you have described. Whereas you have
      said:
      >
      > "... instead of the mind dissolving into its own transparency, it
      is as if consciousness rotates only half way and become stuck
      with "half" experiencing sensory reality and "half" experiencing a
      timeless spaceless transparent purity"
      >
      > In my experience the "rotation" was complete, and sensory reality
      was not present except for a distinct sensation of separateness from
      the void, because of which absorption did not occur. The form in
      which consciousness of ordinary reality persisted was the sense of
      being a separate observer, and of existing in spatial locality. No
      other aspect remained.
      >
      > Matheesha describes:
      >
      > "what feels like phalacitta overlapped during waking
      consciousness. It feels like an internal turning away from the
      senses - of conciousness established on nibbana, but in a temporary
      manner."
      >
      > I notice that these three are very similar, differing only in
      that with Daniel's experience the consciousness begins to shift but
      there is a notable `stuckness' that Matheesha doesn't mention, and
      both Daniel and Matheesha experience an overlap or coexistence of
      sensory awareness/ waking consciousness and emptiness/ phalacitta,
      while with Culadasa there is a complete turning away from namarupa to
      nibbana. But all three are the same in that absorption into nibbana
      does not occur.
      >
      > There is a fourth kind of experience, one that I have had only
      three times so far, all very recently, and which I had specifically
      in mind with that earlier posting. These experiences did not take
      place in retreat but rather while engaged in normal activities. In
      each case I was either actually contemplating some aspect of dhamma
      in the moment it occured, or else had been doing so immediately
      beforehand. I don't know whether there is any significance to that
      fact or not, since that is what I tend to be doing most of the time
      anyway. But these are the characteristics that are most definitely of
      significance:
      > 1) there was a complete shift in consciousness from sense objects
      and mental objects to nibbana, the `rotation' as Daniel puts it, with
      complete absorption;
      > 2) this state of fruition consciousness persisted for several
      minutes the first time and for at least a minute the next two times;
      > 3) there was no interruption of physical activities nor
      apparently of the mental processes supporting them during the state
      of absorption;
      > 4) although there was a complete cessation of sensory awareness
      during the event, following the period of absorption there was a
      recollection of the ongoing activities that had taken place during
      the absorption. There is a curious quality to the recall, as if I
      were observing myself from outside of myself, or more like I am
      remembering a scene from a movie.
      > 5) There was a definite sense that the body-mind complex could
      have continued on quite well if the state of absorption had continued.
      >
      > I have often wondered what the state of an Arahant's
      consciousness would be like, and it is my opinion that all of these
      experiences, Daniel's, Matheesha's, and Culadasa's are strong
      pointers towards the possibility of what that may be like. Leaving
      aside my retreat experience, I can easily imagine that all three of
      these other experiences are representative of transcendental states
      that are sustainable in the `world', and so can account for how a
      Buddha might dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in the
      world.
      >
      > You ask:
      >
      > "… how do we find our way to understanding what such an
      experience actually is apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal
      preferences. "
      >
      > This is always the most important question, and all I can say is
      that subjectively the experience was unquestionably phala samapatti,
      spontaneous and brief though it was, and that the aftermath verified
      the experience as just that as well. I find the Thervada tradition to
      have very little to say about the higher Paths and Arahantship, and
      while the Mahayana discounts the Arahant as a lesser realization,
      there are no shortage of references to a Buddha or a "fully
      enlightened being" dwelling continuously in Nirvana while the
      Nirmanakaya functions on this plane to teach and to guide the rest of
      us out of suffering.
      >
      > Two last thoughts on the foregoing. Entirely without any
      scholastic or philosophical justification, I have always discounted
      the Mahayana idea of the Arahant as a lesser realization, and have
      likewise ignored any Theravadin suggestions that the Arahant might
      represent an intermediate stage between the Anagamin and Buddhahood.
      In my personal cosmology an Arahant = a Buddha, and a Buddha is an
      Arahant, and the historical Buddha was a Sammasambuddha endowed with
      certain special abilities vis-a-vis teaching the rest of us, but does
      not otherwise represent a higher level of spiritual attainment. I am
      open to being educated on this point, and if I can be made to clearly
      understand the difference I might modify the language I have used in
      the preceding paragraphs. But the bottom line is an aspiration to
      Buddhahood, whether that is the same as Arahant or not, and it only
      seems reasonable to me that a Buddha has direct experience of
      Ultimate Reality, panna, even while the fleshly
      > corpse continues to be animated for the benefit of all sentient
      beings.
      >
      > I am in your debt and in your service.
      > Culadasa
      >
      >
      > Daniel <drbf2@...> wrote:
      > Dear Culadasa,
      >
      > I recall reading years ago a Theravada writer that put forth the
      same position you propose, that the phala cittas of the arhant could
      be present during sensory consciousness. I do not remember that
      author's name. He quoted as his authority a sutta passage that
      mentioned the consciousness of the arhant as being bright and
      limitless, or something like that. I am sorry for being so vague but
      I no longer remember where to find this information. At any rate you
      said:
      >
      > "it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an
      Arahant could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana as his
      or her daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until
      recently,"
      >
      > What is it that makes you so certain now? If you are referring to
      a personal experience, would you feel comfortable sharing it here.
      You said:
      >
      > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
      yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
      a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
      activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and mind
      continue to function completely normally to all outward appearances.
      After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a memory
      record such that the events that occurred on the sense plane during
      the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
      an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of what
      the state of the Arahat may be like."
      >
      > In the last few years I have occasionally experienced a state of
      consciousness in which emptiness and sensory awareness coexist. I am
      not however so confident as to call this a type of phala. To describe
      it briefly, the same very rapid "rotation" or "turning inside out" of
      consciousness that would normally lead to absorption into voidness
      begins, but does not complete itself. So instead of the mind
      dissolving into its own transparency, it is as if consciousness
      rotates only half way and become stuck with "half" experiencing
      sensory reality and "half" experiencing a timeless spaceless
      transparent purity. I do remember the first time this happened,
      the "sensory" part of "me" was surprised and really did feel as if I
      had gotten stuck. This event of course makes samsaric reality appear
      to be something akin to a film projection on the surface of soap
      bubble. The same basic state comes from time to time, and can vary as
      to its "flavor" ie. more or less tranquility, more or
      > less radiance, more or less happiness etc.
      >
      > Having said all this I must also say that at the time I had been
      doing two months of samatha practice and several weeks with the
      nimittas of the formless jhanas just prior to the sathipathana
      practice that lead to this experience. So was this just a
      samatha "thang" some after affects of staring into the nothingness of
      the 3rd arupa jhana nimitta? Or was it an insight thing, or just one
      of the many interesting and uncatalogued by products of deep
      practice? I don't know of anyone who can give an answer to this
      question. It just is what it is, however, amongst those things that
      it is, it is impermanent, and therefore under suspicion. At least for
      now J
      >
      > So why am I saying all this? Because the developed mind is
      capable of so many interesting states. If someone were having an
      experience that would qualify to fit the criteria for the one you are
      mentioning:
      >
      > "There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
      yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
      a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
      activities"
      >
      > Well, how would we know? I am not saying it is not so, but how do
      we find our way to understanding what such an experience actually is
      apart from wishful thinking or doctrinal preferences. Perhaps you
      have Vajrayana or Mahayana teachings to help you with understanding
      such things, but as far as I know, the Theravada says nothing about
      this officially and I am unaware of any oral tradition that speaks of
      this.
      >
      > Thank your for listening,
      >
      > Daniel B.
      >
      > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa <culadasa@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello Daniel,
      > >
      > > My conversation with Dhammanando was meant to be open to
      everyone, so thank you for joining in. My reply will only address
      single point as I am 'on the road' at the moment, and I hope to be
      able to respond to other of your comments in the next few days.
      > >
      > > As for the ice and water metaphor, it serves in several ways. One
      of which is that ice and water are both H2O, and in that same way,
      consciousness is consciousness, but there is a shift to a profoundly
      different state of consciousness at magga-phala and phala samapatti
      just as there is a shift in state from water to ice. They are the
      same, yet completely different at the same time.
      > >
      > > The ordinary consciousness of the sotapan or the sakadagami or
      even anagami is still vinnana, it still takes nama and rupa as its
      objects. Vinnana is vinnana, "although with [more or] less force or
      with more [or less] transparency. " But the consciousness at magga-
      phala and phala samapatti is distinctly different, it is not vinnana
      (and some have suggested that panna might be the better word to use
      for this consciousness) , and it does not take nama and rupa as
      object.
      > >
      > > And so you say "Even an arhant in his or her daily sensory
      consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in the
      magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-phala and
      phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed in
      Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not compatible with
      sensory or bodily functioning. " (I notice you have qualified this
      statement by saying "magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower
      paths" and I wonder whether you mean by that all three lower paths as
      compared to the Arahant, or only the first two, because this does
      bear somewhat on the issue I am trying to clarify here with regard to
      the consciousness of an Arahant.)
      > >
      > > The difficulty is, as you say, that magga-phala and phala
      samapatti are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed
      in sunnata, and so
      > > - since it is the very fact that the consciousness that arises in
      magga-phala and phala samapatti directly knows sunnata that
      distinguishes it from the ordinary consciousness called vinnana (that
      takes materiality and mentality as its object and is thus imprisoned
      by it), and furthermore;
      > > - since the defining characteristic of the jhanic state is that
      the consciousness is completely withdrawn from anything other than
      the specific object of jhana,
      > > it appears to defy both experience and logic that even an Arahant
      could experience the consciousness that knows nibbana as his or her
      daily consciousness. And so I have believed myself until recently,
      although I have from time to time encountered suggestions to the
      contrary.
      > >
      > > So at this point I would like to expand the metaphor of water and
      ice to include the dimension of temperature. There can be different
      degrees within a single state. Water can exist over a great range of
      temperatures and still remain water, and so can ice exist at a great
      range of temperatures while still remaining ice. The same appears to
      be true of these mind states.
      > >
      > > As we know, there is a very definite difference between the
      ordinary consciousness, the vinnana of the non-ariyan and the
      sotapan, sakadagami, or anagami, and likewise there is a difference
      in the vinnana of these lower path stages as compared to each other.
      This corresponds to temperature in the metaphore. I am suggesting
      that perhaps there is also a similar difference in the consciousness
      that knows nibanna, the phala samapatti consciousness of the Arahant
      as compared to that of the lower Paths, and it is such that it
      permits a Buddha to dwell in nibbana while continuing to function in
      the world.
      > >
      > > There is an experience some have had, and you may know of it
      yourself, in which fruition consciousness manifests unexpectedly for
      a period of time outside of intense practice and during ordinary
      activities. A period during which, remarkably, the body and mind
      continue to function completely normally to all outward appearances.
      After the return to ordinary consciousness there is even a memory
      record such that the events that occured on the sense plane during
      the experience can be recalled, so it is completely unlike
      an 'absence' in that respect. This is very suggestive to me of what
      the state of the Arahat may be like. As you may notice upon
      reflection, the one who dwells in nibbana while functioning in the
      world would be absolutely free of any vestige of attachment to a
      separate existence of any kind, on any plane.
      > >
      > > Your shared thoughts nourish my understanding. Thank you. I hope
      that I can offer you something of some value in return.
      > > Culadasa
      > >
      > > Daniel drbf2@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Culadasa,
      > > I hope you don't mind if I insert myself into your conversation
      with the Ven. Dhammadhino. As always your posts, being of
      considerable weightiness, require a serious response. So I will try
      to share my reflections with you regarding some of your points. I
      find these back-and-forths to be both clarifying and edifiying. Thank
      you so much for taking the time and the trouble.
      > >
      > > "I suppose in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion
      of 7 years or less to Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic."
      > >
      > > So did I until I met Taungpulu Sayadaw. I learned from hanging
      with him, that there is a whole other dimension of help that a truly
      great yogi can give. I am not sure how to explain it, whether it is a
      type of psychic power, or a hugely expanded subtle body, or whatever,
      but there is a very palpable power that extents around a being of
      great realization that supports the yogi from within by permeating
      his entire being and bringing stillness, peace and power into the
      disciples mind, and drawing him in the right direction, like an inner
      magnet. When you practice within range of this aura, you find
      yourself capable of so much more than you would otherwise. Just being
      in the presence of such a being is a transformational growth
      experience. I remember that people who know noting about meditation
      or Buddhism would sometimes come to see Taungpulu, and sitting in
      silence they would begin to weep so deep and powerful was the
      stillness and the love that radiated around him. Dipa
      > > Ma, who spoke no English, I remember would look at me with great
      love and simply reach into my mind and adjust my consciousness to
      make whatever trouble I was having in my practice disappear. If these
      teachers had that kind of power, I cannot even imagine what it must
      have been like to sit in the presence of the Buddha. Seen in this
      way, seven years although exceptional become believable.
      Interestingly, along these lines, you might remember how the suttas
      often say that such and such a bhikkhu attains to final knowledge "in
      no long time." The commentaries say that "no long time" means within
      12 years.
      > >
      > > At any rate, there are many "unofficial truths" in the living
      tradition of the Theravada that cannot be justified in the suttas or
      the commentaries. Every one knows them, but they don't talk about
      them. For example there is an entire oral tradition about such things
      as the progress of insight, teaching by balancing the five
      controlling faculties, finer points of jhana training etc. that does
      not exist in writing anywhere.
      > >
      > > "And so, if I infer correctly with regard to the consciousness of
      an Arahant, the mindfulness of the Arahant is, at all times, of one
      kind with that of the Stream Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner
      during their experience of magga and phala."
      > >
      > > I think I see what you are trying to do with the ice and water
      metaphor: so show how mindfulness, and consciousness with the other
      factors evolves to become "denser" as we progress from stage to stage
      such that what was exceptional before now becomes natural. I do agree
      with this in a general way. For example I carry within myself a more
      or less constant level of awareness of the three signs of being all
      day long, that does not require effort. The Dhamma to some extent has
      become part of me in a way that would not have been possible twenty
      years ago. However, it still lacks the intensity and clarity that
      come when samadhi and viriya are developed by stronger continuity of
      practice. Now as to what you stated above, if by magga you mean path
      development, and by phala you mean the result of that then I would
      agree. However, if you are using these words in the commentarial
      sense of magga-phala and phala, then I don't see it. Even an arhant
      in his or her daily sensory
      > > consciousness cannot have the consciousness that is present in
      the magga-phala or phala experiences of the lower paths. Magga-phala
      and phala are jhanic states in which the mind is completely absorbed
      in Voidness, however, momentarily; these states are not compatible
      with sensory or bodily functioning.
      > >
      > >
      > > "On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter three when
      they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling in
      fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to awakening who
      has yet to achieve either."
      > >
      > >
      > > Perhaps this is true as regards to insight in a general way as I
      described my own experience above, but even the sotapan or the
      sakadagami who has lost the concentration of retreat or regular daily
      practice will experience mundane mind states in a more or less
      ordinary way, although with less force or with more transparency. But
      still nothing close to the shift experienced in deep retreat practice
      by those without attainments. As best as I understand this, the
      really powerful shift in consciousness comes with the internalization
      of jhanic factors that the yogi must accomplish to attain the path of
      anagami. Here is a sutta that helps to illustrate my meaning:
      > >
      > > 3. "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you
      internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and
      delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already
      abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life,
      you would not be enjoying sensual plea&shy;sures. It is because that
      state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home
      life and enjoying sensual pleasures.
      > > 4. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually
      is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little
      gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the
      dan&shy;ger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the
      rapture and pleasure that are apart from sen&shy;sual pleasures,
      apart from unwholesome states,or to something more peaceful than
      that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a
      noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom
      how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering,
      and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains
      to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures,
      apart form unwholesome states, or to soething more peaceful than
      that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures.
      > > Notes: Mahanama was a sakadagami who had long ago attained the
      path of once returner. He was puzzled as to why unwholesome states
      sill appeared in his mind. In his case the chief defilement seems to
      have been desire for sensual pleasures. This sutta demonstrates how
      noble disciples can have misunderstandings as to their attainments.
      It also demonstrates how sakadagamis do not nec&shy;essarily have
      even the lower jhanas, and how the Buddha recommended jhana training
      to house&shy;holders interested in attaining the higher paths and
      fruits. It also is suggestive of the importance of jhana training for
      some people in the attainment of the path of anagami.
      > > Culadukkhakhandha Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of
      Suffering; MN 14:3-4
      > >
      > >
      > > "For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
      contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the flesh; the
      mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior, surpassed
      or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated or not
      liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
      formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening; the
      truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold any
      doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete method for
      the attainment of Arhantship. "
      > >
      > > I am sure that we can agree that these contemplations are exactly
      the same as those outlined in the suttas for the practice of samatha-
      vipassana that the Buddha specifically recommends for the attainment
      of the higher paths. I do not have one on hand, but the typical
      pattern as put forth in the suttas is that the yogi emerges from the
      jhana, and then observes the mental factors present and watches as
      they pass away. He then goes up to the next higher jhana and repeats
      the process and so forth. Here is another quote from the suttas, one
      of my favorites that describes the process of samatha-vipassana in a
      way that specifically aims at the transition from sakadagami to
      anagami, and interestingly includes as objects of mindfulness all the
      five aggregates. What this means for me is that the entire
      satipathana process remains helpful to the yogi developing the path
      to anagami, only he is doing so with jhana as its basis.
      > >
      > > 9."And what, Ananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of
      the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from objects of
      attachment, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the
      com&shy;plete tranquilization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from
      sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters
      upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied
      and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
      > > "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception,
      formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent,
      as suffering, as a disease, as a tumor, as a barb, as a calamity, a
      an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, and as not self.
      He turns his mind away from hose states, and directs it toward the
      deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the
      sub&shy;lime, that is, the stilling of all formation, the
      relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
      dispassion, cessation, Nibbana. Standing upon that, he attains the
      destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction
      of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhmma, that
      delight in the Dhamma, with the destruction of the five lower fetters
      he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and
      there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that world.
      This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower
      > > fetters.
      > > Note: This is repeated for each of the eight jhanas.
      > > Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta: The Greater Discourse to Malunkya; MN
      64:9
      > >
      > > And I don't mean just in the West. This has been going on for a
      very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of the world. The
      result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the ignorant, and we
      are like the blind leading the blind. I have found a lot of nonsense
      as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and Tika of the Theravada and the
      same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-Tibetan tradition as
      well.
      > >
      > > Don't even get me going on this one! This is indeed a terrible
      situation, and one of the very best reasons we have to get the "good
      stuff" down in writing and publish it publicly. For this reason I am
      writing my book (slowly I admit) and so are you I believe. But we
      really need to take the core of practical teaching out of the closet
      of secrecy that allows for all this nonsense to develop. Things
      fester in the dark. Many people erroneously believe that there is no
      secret teaching in Theravada Buddhism. This is not true. Why for
      example is the Mahasi teacher's manual not published, but passed on
      in secrecy? Every Theravada lineage that I have ever known has the
      same attitude of secrecy and communication on "need to know basis
      only." This encourages student dependency, creates a better market
      for teachers, allows for all sorts of misunderstanding and
      distortions of the teaching, and puts the practical Dhamma at risk of
      being lost in the world. I find it all the more
      > > appalling in that many Theravada teachers pretend that there are
      no secret teachings in this tradition. This is usually said as a
      deprecating reference to Hindu or Tibetan teachers that have secret
      teachings. At least these traditions are honest about it!
      > >
      > >
      > > And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who don't
      know what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly growing
      number of people with genuine realization who don't know how to teach
      others what they have learned themselves.
      > >
      > >
      > > How sad and how true. I believe that the best way around this is
      to publish our best understanding of both practice and teaching
      processes. The more substantial teachings will withstand the test of
      time, and time will reveal those who really know their stuff.
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks for your patience, may you be happy, healthy and safe!
      > >
      > >
      > > Daniel Boutemy
      > >
      > > --- In jhana_insight@ yahoogroups. com, Culadasa culadasa@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hello Venerable Dhammanando,
      > > >
      > > > Thank you very much for clarifying this. It is very helpful.
      > > >
      > > > This confirms Daniel's original attempt at translating this
      passage, and explains also what the Atthakatha excerpt that he
      located was indicating. Since your knowledge of Pali and access to
      Pali language resources appears to be so much better than ours, can
      you please tell us more about 'sati' as a form of the verb 'to be'?
      Also, do you happen to know the meaning of the word 'aparikkhine'
      that is used in the Atthakatha? I had thought it meant something like
      observation, or examination, but cannot locate it in any dictionary,
      and given that sati as used here is not mindfulness, that meaning no
      longer makes much sense either.
      > > >
      > > > I would like to share with all of you where I have gone with
      this since first posting my query. It began with an error of
      translation on my part because I had neither encountered 'añña'
      before in its meaning of 'perfect knowledge', and so mistook it for
      its much more common usage as a disjunctive, nor was I aware of this
      other meaning of 'sati'. But it set in motion a process that has been
      productive of a deeper understanding and appreciation of the sutta.
      > > >
      > > > Although I'd never reflected upon it at any length, I suppose
      in the back of my mind I'd always taken the assertion of 7 years or
      less to Arhantship to be somewhat hyperbolic. I think Blake may have
      expressed the thoughts of many of us when he asked, "Did the
      attainments in the suttas get exaggerated over the years, or are we
      now doing something wrong in our practice?" And then also, it seems
      that I had mostly thought of the practices of the
      Mahasattipatthanasu tta in terms of the lower path challenges and
      attainments anyway, and of course one only sees what one looks at!
      > > >
      > > > But William's comments planted a thorn in my mind such that I
      kept returning to this issue, trying to penetrate this mystery a
      little more deeply. It is indeed this thing that we call mindfulness,
      and mindfulness alone, that is of the essence of awakening at every
      stage of the Path. And by the way, William, it was not at all my
      intention to suggest that the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer is
      the ultimate development of mindfulness, because this is quite
      obviously not so. It was a clumsy attempt on my part to formulate a
      statement of alternatives at the level of 2nd Path versus 3rd Path
      while assuming the word sati had been used in the sutta to mean
      mindfulness. 'Fully developed' was intended to apply very
      specifically to the quality of mindfulness of the Once-Returner. But
      I would like to point out that, while the mindfulness of the Arhant
      is different from the mindfulness of the Stream-Enterer, it is also
      very much the same. Ice is ice at -10 C or at -100 C, although
      > > > it is also different at those two temperatures. The mindfulness
      that takes nibbana as object is as different from the mindfulness
      that takes rupa, sankhara and namarupa as object, as ice is different
      from water. I find the phase change of matter to provide a good
      metaphor for that difference. And so, if I infer correctly with
      regard to the consciousness of an Arahant, the mindfulness of the
      Arahant is, at all times, of one kind with that of the Stream
      Entrant, Once-Returner, and Non-Returner during their experience of
      magga and phala. On the other hand, the mindfulness of these latter
      three when they are experiencing neither path attainment nor dwelling
      in fruition is of the same kind as that of the aspirant to awakening
      who has yet to achieve either. And so just as either ice or water can
      exist over a range of temperatures, water is still water and ice is
      still ice.
      > > >
      > > > This metaphor, as with all metaphors, falls down at some point.
      But when I returned to the Mahasatipatthanasut ta to seek the answer
      within the source of the question, the obvious began to leap out at
      me. The contemplations as perfomed by the non-ariyan aspirant to
      Stream-Entry take one form. After first path, they take another, and
      so on. Some of these contemplations are not even available to the
      practitioner who has yet to attain first path, except perhaps in a
      sort of temporary, facsimile form, if they happen to be among the few
      who have a natural talent for jhana. The contemplation of the mind as
      liberated or not liberated, the contemplation of the truth of
      cessation, and the contemplation of right concentration, for example.
      > > >
      > > > For the third path aspirant to Arhantship, their are the
      contemplations of clear comprehension; feelings not of the flesh; the
      mind as deluded or not deluded, superior or not superior, surpassed
      or unsurpassable, concentrated or not concentrated, liberated or not
      liberated; the constituent elements of feeling, perception,
      formations, and consciousness; all seven factors of awakening; the
      truth of cessation; and right concentration. I no longer hold any
      doubt at all that this sutta provides a full and complete method for
      the attainment of Arhantship.
      > > >
      > > > There is a recursive description in this sutta of right
      mindfulness as the very contents of this sutta, which before I had
      thought of as a quaint curiousity, but now I understand it to be a
      brilliant instruction. Having practiced these four applications of
      mindfulness to the point of path and fruition, one returns to it
      again and experiences it in a completely new way. Not to be trite,
      but rather to acknowledge a great truth:
      > > >
      > > > "And the end of all our searching shall be to return to the
      place where we started and know it for the first time."
      > > > -T.S. Eliot
      > > >
      > > > Personally for me, it is a rather remarkable coincidence that a
      particular juxtaposition of words, with alternative meanings that
      worked together in a certain way, occured in this sutta the way that
      it has. It is as though it were lying in wait for 2500 years so that
      I might stumble upon it when I needed to, and so has launched a
      search that yielded a treasure I have been searching for for months
      (or perhaps years, without knowing it).
      > > >
      > > > As for Blake's question about why it seems to take so much
      longer now to reach these goals than it seemingly once did, this has
      been very much on my mind as well. I sincerely believe that the
      teaching has degenerated in the sense that we have the words, but we
      don't have their meanings, and these same words have been interpreted
      and reinterpreted over and over again by those who have sharp
      intellects but lack the genuine understanding that comes only with
      real experience. And I don't mean just in the West. This has been
      going on for a very long time in the traditional Buddhist cultures of
      the world. The result is a Dhamma buried in the obfuscations of the
      ignorant, and we are like the blind leading the blind. I have found a
      lot of nonsense as well as wisdom in the Atthakatha and Tika of the
      Theravada and the same is true of the commentaries of the Indo-
      Tibetan tradition as well. I am not trying so much to justify my
      willingness to question the traditional texts as to
      > > > explain it. And I hope everyone who has followed this
      discussion will appreciate the importance of not just challenging
      traditional interpretations, but also of remaining open to the
      possibility of being mistaken when doing so.
      > > >
      > > > Alan brings us the good news, and I can vouch for it myself,
      that, "We now have teachers in the East (and the occasionally the
      West) who offer teachings both in samatha and vipassana in ways that
      will, with fair probability, take a meditator to some levels of
      realization and or to deep jhana. The time is now over where a
      Westerner is obliged to study watered down vipassana or samatha
      taught by lay western teachers who may or may not have any
      understanding of what they are teaching, or for that matter, have the
      training/competence to teach." But we still have a long way to go.
      And if we have had a surfeit of charismatic teachers who don't know
      what they are talking about, we also have a rapidly growing number of
      people with genuine realization who don't know how to teach others
      what they have learned themselves.
      > > >
      > > > By the way, for those of you who are interested, there is a
      very interesting article by Donald Swearer entitled Two Types of
      Saving Knowledge in the Pali Suttas, in Pholosophy East and West, Vol
      22, #4 (Oct 1972). I came across it while searching for uses of añña
      as 'perfect knowledge', and it is well worth a read.
      > > >
      > > &

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
    • matheesha
      Hi Allan, ... re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with determinations,
      Message 101 of 101 , Feb 24, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Allan,

        > Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
        re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
        able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
        determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
        a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
        the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
        manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
        Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
        Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
        phala appears to support the integration.

        Thank you for that response. My understanding of 'phala' has
        deepened as a result of this group, various other kalyanamittas and
        my own pondering. The dhamma is indeed intricately deep and amazing.
        The pitfals are equally mezmerising!

        The fruit of the path (phala) is indeed the fruit of dispassion and
        letting go. It is the bliss which arises when vijja/wisdom arisen
        through the practice is present. It is the shedding of suffering (as
        well).

        The state that we call 'phala' is indeed the door to nibbana, but
        not nibbana itself. The prescence of vijja leans all fabrications
        towards their fading away (nirodha), like the powerful gravity of a
        blackhole sucking all matter towards itself, into extinction. We can
        see the rare and unusual event of the blackhole exerting it's
        influence on everything around it, but we can never know what
        happens afterwards. The rare and unusual event is 'phala'.

        However not even vijja exists in nibbana.

        It itself will have to wiped out. Hence nibbana is never a result of
        something. It is simply is what is(n't), when everything ceases.

        I used to think the complete absence of avijja (and the presence of
        vijja) meant that nibbana, in the sense of escape from the whole
        field of perception, prevailed. But it is now clear that for vijja
        to prevail, the skandas must prevail, because it is one of the
        skandas. Hence arahanths dont vanish into nothingness or die the
        moment they become enlightened (!), but rather continue in a state
        of incredible letting go and renunciation. At their deaths (skanda
        parinirvana) there is nothing to give rise to anything further.

        The state of phala is very important in that it explains the paticca
        samuppada as well. It is significant that the buddha was
        contemplating the PS soon after a week of 'the bliss of
        enlightenment' - possibly an arahath phala samapatti.

        When there is no avijja and when there is vijja in the forefront of
        the mind, there is no craving and intentions (sankhara) based on
        craving. This means there is no consciousness and the whole string
        of perception based on craving and avijja. Such paths of thought
        usually end up with attachment (upadana) which gives rise to
        further 'arising'. We often see this when something we cling to
        arise seemingly out of the blue in our minds. This arising seems to
        be bhava - the arising of a bundle of 5 aggregates- if, it arose in
        another body would contitute a coming into existence of
        psychophysical phenomena of life. Such things are bound to end in
        tears!

        Phala appears when the insights built upon one another reach their
        peak. It is a profound state of letting go -the process starting in
        the first instance when revulsion (nibbida) manifests when remnant
        craving meets vijja and conflict reuslts. Then the craving is
        defeated and viraga/dispassion manifests. Then at even higher stages
        of insight nirodha apears- fading away. These are the terms the
        Buddha commonly used in the suttas to bescribe the process of
        insight, compared to the terms of the 7 purifications, which seems
        to be a favourite of ven. Mahakaccayana (I came across him using
        these terms twice now, in the Pali!). Anyway, the end stage of the
        vipassana process manifests in the turning back of PS. The fading
        away of ignorance leads to fading away of ..... and so on.

        Anyway, that's it for me for the time being.

        If anyone like to take a crack at explaining the 4 types of upadana
        and how they lead to becoming, I would like to hear from you. I am
        considering giving a talk on the PS soon so I would value your input.

        with metta

        Matheesha











        --- In jhana_insight@yahoogroups.com, Allan Cooper <nama1rupa@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Daniel, and Matheesha-
        > I apologize for the delay in responding to your question(s), but
        my travel intervened. I am now finally back at home for at least 5
        months.
        >
        > Daniel, please, do not feel it a necessity to respond, or do so
        if or when time permits. I believe you are again in semester and
        probably very busy with your studies.
        >
        > Truly appreciate your asking for clarification when re my use of
        the terms wisdom, knowledge, and insight (Insight).
        >
        > Generally...what I mean when I use the term `knowledge' I mean
        it to mean cognitive knowing. 'Wisdom' is the intuitive
        understanding of non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion in its
        various stages throughout our meditations, and `insight' (small i)
        as any number on cognitive or intuitive understandings along the
        Path of Purification to Path. 'Insight', with a capital I, is for
        Path access/Insight.
        >
        > Re your #2 (see below) question/statement. You make clear what I
        was pointing towards. It is my belief that in order to access the
        > Insight(s) we have been discussing the pre-requisite insights
        and or Path Insights must be realized and integrated into the mind
        stream. There is as you clearly point out, more ways than one for
        this process to arise. (There is dry and not dry vipassana to name
        just two.) Regardless of what way we access Insight it is likely
        that the necessary requisites will have to be established, and this
        is never more important than for first Path Insight. After Sotapanna
        the path towards the next deep Insight appears to become almost
        automatic with the nyanas appearing as they must and the yogi's job
        simply becomes one in which the "gears" need to be machined to a
        very smooth and honed understanding. Each Insight demands deeper and
        subtler intuitive understanding of the characteristics of non-greed,
        non-aversion, and non-self. Each Insight demands a finer tuning, a
        finer grinding, a finer lifting.
        >
        > I too agree with you, Daniel. I agree that the cognitive
        understanding or mental states that arise as a result of a
        particular insight along the Path of Purification does not have the
        same importance as the developmental process that is part of and
        which it is built upon. Their real real importance is their linking
        with other insights. This linking or as you put it, "shifting
        gears", leads the yogi towards maggaphala.
        >
        > This is again especially true for First Path when the yogi can
        become easily distracted. It is easy and common for a yogi to get
        preoccupied with the manifestation, the pleasantness or
        unpleasantness of a particular insight, and get caught in reaction.
        >
        >
        > In order for the attenuation of greed, hatred and delusion to
        become mature and intuitive, and become harmonious with whichever
        Path, the yogi may have to go again and again through some of the
        insights for the 'grinding up or down' to take root. Until the yogi
        is sufficiently balanced in insight the next Insight will not arise.
        >
        > Matheesha: I would like to add, or emphasize, what Daniel said
        re phala practice. An important aspect of this practice is to be
        able to access phala again and again. When phala is secured with
        determinations, and or can arise with ease, the mind will recognize
        a lessening of greed, aversion and ignorance that is congruent with
        the Path that is being practiced. These intuitive realizations will
        manifest in everyday life, and affect how we think, speak, and live.
        Maggaphala alone does not appear to integrate the wisdom of the
        Insight by itself. Continued practice and continued visitation to
        phala appears to support the integration.
        >
        > Thank you all for reading this attempt at clarification.
        >
        > I am available to try and discuss any misunderstanding that I
        may have, and or try to make clear where I have been unclear.
        >
        > metta to us all! allan
        >
        > Dear Allan,
        > Thank you for your post, your support and your clarifications.
        I have one question, and one comment.
        > 1/ You have mentioned the difference between knowledge, wisdom
        and insight. Without concern for Pali terms, could you clarify what
        you experience to be the differences?
        > 2/ Your write: It appears that the state I'm calling 'not' the
        yogi MUST have the requisites for it to arise in the mind stream.
        Equanimity about Formations must be sufficiently mature, there must
        also be sufficient understanding of all the insights that precedes
        EAF. (The above is a narrow point of view. It arises from the school
        that I train in. It is clear that there are other ways to reach this
        quality of mind.)
        > I would be firmer on this point. At present, I do not believe
        that there is any way, other than by the progress of insight for the
        mind to develop so as to access emptiness. Of course, this progress
        can appear quite differently under different circumstances. For
        example, Ven Pemasiri used to say for that for yogis who have
        already experienced magga-phala, consciousness can go from Knowledge
        of Arising and Passing Away to Knowledge of Equanimity Towards
        Formation in a single breath. For those who have development in a
        previous life, the nyanas can be very subtle and spontaneous,
        occuring amongst daily activities and magga-phala can come
        spontaneously at the slightest hint of truth. And then of course we
        have jhana yogis who have so much mental development already, that
        their journey through the stages of insight might be very fast, and
        not experienced with all the symptoms of bare insight. There might
        be other variation as well. My own insight (wisdom/knowledge ?) is
        > that the essence of the progress of insight is actually something
        subtle, somewhat like shifting gears, as the relatioship between
        consciousness and object changes, and consciousness is "tuned"
        differently. The insights spoken of for each stage are actually
        secondary to this readjustment process, and actually result from
        these shifts, and many of the gross symptoms experienced in bare
        insight training are actually tertiary manifestations.
        > "...the state I'm calling 'not' the yogi MUST have the
        requisites for it to arise in the mind stream." Indeed. According to
        the commentaries, the 37 states pertaining to enlightenment must all
        be fulfilled for Path and Fruit to arise: noble eightfold path, five
        controlling faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of
        enlightenment, the four great efforts, the four noble truths, the
        four roads to power, and the four foundations of mindfulness. People
        often underestimate just how much a sotapan has achieved! They may
        not developed to perfection, or permanently fixed in development
        but still, what a journey!
        > With metta,
        > Daniel
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
        >
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