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Re: A question on salvation.

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  • Jim
    Hi Aletta. I think I should warn you that this group is actually made up of those who claim to be JW s as defined by the WTBTS, and those who claim to be JW s
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2010
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      Hi Aletta.

      I think I should warn you that this group is actually made up of those who claim to be JW's as defined by the WTBTS, and those who claim to be JW's (such as myself) who do not hold to the doctrines of the WTBTS.

      The orginal owner of this group left and when she did she made myself and superbird_fan the two owners of this group. Now, superbird_fan is a WTBTS defined JW, so we have representation from two groups here in leadership. We do strive to be fair, but as you can also see, the group has not been real active lately and what I see as a few attempts to promote activity have not worked. Hopefully that will change soon.

      Now, in regards to the verses you answered with, I am going to reply to the one in Matthew and ask that you please go back and rerad the context and see if you still think it applies here.

      Thank you and welcome to our humble sleepy little group.

      Jim


      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta Jeannette" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew
      > 10:22)
      > "Run in such a way that you may attain it."1 Corinthians 9:24
      >
      > Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by
      > an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get
      > involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final
      > conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would
      > have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of
      > righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the
      > holy commandment delivered to them 2 Peter 2:20-21
      >
      > I am a new Bible Student so please if I am wrong, say so...
      >
      > These verses above tell me the salvation is a gift that is conditional,
      > BUT we can loose it. I believe we would know now vs at judgement about
      > our own salvation or at the least, we can have that hope.
      >
      > Hugs
      >
      > Aletta
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
      > <warrior_of_the_sword@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Is salvation a gift that we can we have right now and can never lose,
      > or is it something we can have now but it's conditional and we can lose
      > it, or is it something we can't know we have until after we die and are
      > judged?
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Aletta
      Jim, Thanks for the warning...but I guess I don t understand that warning.. I have seen replies to questions that have no reasoning in the scriptures. I am
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2010
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        Jim, Thanks for the warning...but I guess I don't understand that warning..
        I have seen replies to questions that have no reasoning in the scriptures.
        I am not sure what the doctrines of the JW are, but I know what the
        scriptures say on some things.. I want better understanding, so I will hang
        it out here. I am not a baptized JW, nor do I know all their doctrine, but
        I am in a study. I also am attending Sunday talks...

        Now to answer your question about the if I think Matt 10:22 applies to the
        question of if we can loose salvation. The answer is yes. Anyone can hold
        to the truth as they acquire the knowledge of what Jehovah's laws are still
        loose salvation. Jesus brought the gift of salvation with his life as a
        reasons from sin, but we must choose, another gift of God's, the right path.
        Matt 7:13,14 We must endure to the end what knowledge we have.
        Matt 24:13
        Mark 13:13
        Luke 21:19
        Romans 2:7
        James 1:12
        1Peter 2:20
        Rev 2:2,3
        These are some scripture that refer to keeping the laws (Doctrine) of
        Jehovah to the end. If we are to endure the keeping of these laws as we
        learn them to receive salvation, does it not also mean that some will not?
        What about Judas, he was an apostle, a believer in Christ and his teachings?
        It takes more than just being a believer in Christ, we have to learn the
        laws of Jehovah and follow them for our salvation.
        Is your reason for your question different from mine? Please explain.
        Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
        Aletta





        -------Original Message-------

        From: Jim
        Date: 3/2/2010 9:26:53 AM
        To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.


        Hi Aletta.

        I think I should warn you that this group is actually made up of those who
        claim to be JW's as defined by the WTBTS, and those who claim to be JW's
        (such as myself) who do not hold to the doctrines of the WTBTS.

        The orginal owner of this group left and when she did she made myself and
        superbird_fan the two owners of this group. Now, superbird_fan is a WTBTS
        defined JW, so we have representation from two groups here in leadership. We
        do strive to be fair, but as you can also see, the group has not been real
        active lately and what I see as a few attempts to promote activity have not
        worked. Hopefully that will change soon.

        Now, in regards to the verses you answered with, I am going to reply to the
        one in Matthew and ask that you please go back and rerad the context and see
        if you still think it applies here.

        Thank you and welcome to our humble sleepy little group.

        Jim

        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta Jeannette"
        <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew
        > 10:22)
        > "Run in such a way that you may attain it."1 Corinthians 9:24
        >
        > Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by
        > an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get
        > involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final
        > conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would
        > have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of
        > righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the
        > holy commandment delivered to them 2 Peter 2:20-21
        >
        > I am a new Bible Student so please if I am wrong, say so...
        >
        > These verses above tell me the salvation is a gift that is conditional,
        > BUT we can loose it. I believe we would know now vs at judgement about
        > our own salvation or at the least, we can have that hope.
        >
        > Hugs
        >
        > Aletta
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
        > <warrior_of_the_sword@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Is salvation a gift that we can we have right now and can never lose,
        > or is it something we can have now but it's conditional and we can lose
        > it, or is it something we can't know we have until after we die and are
        > judged?
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ajseekingthetruth
        Jim, I had another thought, Jim... I replied without much thought...so I would like to ask what do you consider salvation? Do any one of us truly know if we
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 4, 2010
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          Jim,
          I had another thought, Jim... I replied without much thought...so I would like to ask what do you consider salvation? Do any one of us truly know if we have salvation until we are judge? I was thinking about the 1000 years of the teaching of the people and we only have a short time compared to that to gain our salvation. As we know even after the 1000 years, and Satan is turned loose, there will still be more that loose salvation.

          So thinking in these terms, can anyone truly say, they have salvation?



          --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jim, Thanks for the warning...but I guess I don't understand that warning..
          > I have seen replies to questions that have no reasoning in the scriptures.
          > I am not sure what the doctrines of the JW are, but I know what the
          > scriptures say on some things.. I want better understanding, so I will hang
          > it out here. I am not a baptized JW, nor do I know all their doctrine, but
          > I am in a study. I also am attending Sunday talks...
          >
          > Now to answer your question about the if I think Matt 10:22 applies to the
          > question of if we can loose salvation. The answer is yes. Anyone can hold
          > to the truth as they acquire the knowledge of what Jehovah's laws are still
          > loose salvation. Jesus brought the gift of salvation with his life as a
          > reasons from sin, but we must choose, another gift of God's, the right path.
          > Matt 7:13,14 We must endure to the end what knowledge we have.
          > Matt 24:13
          > Mark 13:13
          > Luke 21:19
          > Romans 2:7
          > James 1:12
          > 1Peter 2:20
          > Rev 2:2,3
          > These are some scripture that refer to keeping the laws (Doctrine) of
          > Jehovah to the end. If we are to endure the keeping of these laws as we
          > learn them to receive salvation, does it not also mean that some will not?
          > What about Judas, he was an apostle, a believer in Christ and his teachings?
          > It takes more than just being a believer in Christ, we have to learn the
          > laws of Jehovah and follow them for our salvation.
          > Is your reason for your question different from mine? Please explain.
          > Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
          > Aletta
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: Jim
          > Date: 3/2/2010 9:26:53 AM
          > To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.
          >
          >
          > Hi Aletta.
          >
          > I think I should warn you that this group is actually made up of those who
          > claim to be JW's as defined by the WTBTS, and those who claim to be JW's
          > (such as myself) who do not hold to the doctrines of the WTBTS.
          >
          > The orginal owner of this group left and when she did she made myself and
          > superbird_fan the two owners of this group. Now, superbird_fan is a WTBTS
          > defined JW, so we have representation from two groups here in leadership. We
          > do strive to be fair, but as you can also see, the group has not been real
          > active lately and what I see as a few attempts to promote activity have not
          > worked. Hopefully that will change soon.
          >
          > Now, in regards to the verses you answered with, I am going to reply to the
          > one in Matthew and ask that you please go back and rerad the context and see
          > if you still think it applies here.
          >
          > Thank you and welcome to our humble sleepy little group.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta Jeannette"
          > <ajseekingthetruth@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew
          > > 10:22)
          > > "Run in such a way that you may attain it."1 Corinthians 9:24
          > >
          > > Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by
          > > an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get
          > > involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final
          > > conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would
          > > have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of
          > > righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the
          > > holy commandment delivered to them 2 Peter 2:20-21
          > >
          > > I am a new Bible Student so please if I am wrong, say so...
          > >
          > > These verses above tell me the salvation is a gift that is conditional,
          > > BUT we can loose it. I believe we would know now vs at judgement about
          > > our own salvation or at the least, we can have that hope.
          > >
          > > Hugs
          > >
          > > Aletta
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
          > > <warrior_of_the_sword@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Is salvation a gift that we can we have right now and can never lose,
          > > or is it something we can have now but it's conditional and we can lose
          > > it, or is it something we can't know we have until after we die and are
          > > judged?
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jim
          ... I write YOU these things that YOU may know that YOU have life everlasting, YOU who put YOUR faith in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13) By this
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 6, 2010
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            --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "ajseekingthetruth" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
            >
            > Do any one of us truly know if we have salvation until we are judge?

            "I write YOU these things that YOU may know that YOU have life everlasting, YOU who put YOUR faith in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

            "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God's gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.
            So yes, we can know we are saved." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

            Yes, we can in fact know we are saved. Those who do not know, don't know because theya re not saved. The have man's lies instead of God's promises.
          • Jim
            ... Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Every one of us is a sinner. Every one of us have come short of God s glory. Romans
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 6, 2010
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              --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "ajseekingthetruth" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim,
              > I had another thought, Jim... I replied without much thought...so I would like to ask what do you consider salvation? Do any one of us truly know if we have salvation until we are judge? I was thinking about the 1000 years of the teaching of the people and we only have a short time compared to that to gain our salvation. As we know even after the 1000 years, and Satan is turned loose, there will still be more that loose salvation.
              >
              > So thinking in these terms, can anyone truly say, they have salvation?
              >

              Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

              Every one of us is a sinner. Every one of us have come short of God's glory.

              Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

              John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

              John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

              Because of our sin, we deserve death, eternal punishment, the wrath of God. But God, because He loves us, has provided a means to have eternal life with Him. That means is the Lord Jesus Christ.

              John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

              You must receive him. Nobody is born into salvation. Nobody deserves it.

              Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

              You must call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, believeing on him, in his sacrifice for YOUR sins.

              John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

              John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

              1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

              Jesus Christ was God Himself. He was God, the Son. The Word. He came and died for your sins.

              Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

              There is nothing you can do to earn salvation. You must be saved by the grace of God, in receiving him (the Lord).

              1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

              Once you receive the Lord, believe on him, that he was sacrificed for your sins, and rose again never to die, you KNOW you are saved.

              No prayer saves you. Your BELIEF is what counts. You may pray to God now, but your prayer is simply an affirmation of your belief. Prayer is an important part of your Christian life, but it has nothing to do with salvation. If you are trusting in a prayer or other "act" then you are not trusting in Christ.

              "What must I do to be saved?" Simply believing in the Lord's completed work; relying completely on him for your salvation.
            • Aletta
              Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply... Look at John chapter 17. It records a heartfelt prayer from Jesus to his Father. He refers to his
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 6, 2010
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                Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply...

                Look at John chapter 17. It records a heartfelt prayer from Jesus to his
                Father. He refers to his apostles as "the men you have given me". He
                distinguishes between them and the rest of the world. For me it makes clear
                a difference between those who have been "called" to a special purpose. It
                also sheds light to on the topic of "The Trinity" notice how Jesus refers
                to He and his Father as being one and then also asks that these men become
                one with them in the same way. Do you take this to mean that all these
                Apostles also became part of the Godhead?

                Look at Phil. 3: 11-14 This is Paul who wrote the letter to the Ephesians
                where you tries to support your belief that a person knows when they are
                saved. Notice that Paul seems to be saying that he does not personally feel
                he knows for sure that he has salvation. Perhaps, it could be said that
                Paul knows he was called. Still, to me Paul is talking about members of the
                "Little Flock"

                Do you believe that there are 2 groups ... The Little Flock and the Other
                sheep?



                -------Original Message-------

                From: Jim
                Date: 3/6/2010 4:52:53 PM
                To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.




                --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "ajseekingthetruth"
                <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
                >
                > Do any one of us truly know if we have salvation until we are judge?

                "I write YOU these things that YOU may know that YOU have life everlasting,
                YOU who put YOUR faith in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

                "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and
                this not owing to YOU, it is God's gift. No, it is not owing to works, in
                order that no man should have ground for boasting.
                So yes, we can know we are saved." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

                Yes, we can in fact know we are saved. Those who do not know, don't know
                because theya re not saved. The have man's lies instead of God's promises.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim
                ... Yes, but not in the same way that the Witness do based off the context of the passage. The little flock was strictly, and only, those few men whom were
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 7, 2010
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                  --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply...

                  >
                  > Do you believe that there are 2 groups ... The Little Flock and the Other
                  > sheep?
                  >


                  Yes, but not in the same way that the Witness do based off the context of the passage.

                  The little flock was strictly, and only, those few men whom were following Jesus and who came to be known as the Apostles. For the WTBTS to be correct about this passage, they have to teach and believe that all of the 144,000 are men. No women allowed. last I checked, this was not their belief.

                  I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that the little flock are natural born Jews and that the other sheep are us gentile believers.

                  I do not accept the 2 class division of the WTBTS that rival the clergy-laity distinction they accuse Christians of having.
                • Aletta
                  I have not study this topic....would you provide scriptures that say they are nature born Jews...and males? ... From: Jim Date: 3/8/2010 2:25:44 AM To:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 8, 2010
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                    I have not study this topic....would you provide scriptures that say they
                    are nature born Jews...and males?




                    -------Original Message-------

                    From: Jim
                    Date: 3/8/2010 2:25:44 AM
                    To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.


                    --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta"
                    <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply...

                    >
                    > Do you believe that there are 2 groups ... The Little Flock and the Other
                    > sheep?
                    >


                    Yes, but not in the same way that the Witness do based off the context of
                    the passage.

                    The little flock was strictly, and only, those few men whom were following
                    Jesus and who came to be known as the Apostles. For the WTBTS to be correct
                    about this passage, they have to teach and believe that all of the 144,000
                    are men. No women allowed. last I checked, this was not their belief.

                    I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that the little flock are natural
                    born Jews and that the other sheep are us gentile believers.

                    I do not accept the 2 class division of the WTBTS that rival the
                    clergy-laity distinction they accuse Christians of having.



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jim
                    Simple really. In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are called the servants of our God (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010
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                      Simple really.

                      In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are called "the servants of our God" (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by God for ministry before the 7th seal is opened. This number is exact of a certain group of people – the Jews, 12,000 from 12 tribes (Rev.7:4).

                      Some people claim that we do not know who they all are. It does not matter, God does.

                      The tribe of Dan is excluded (Revelation 7:6) and Manasseh who is one of the sons of Joseph takes his place.)

                      The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel. The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.

                      The genealogical background of the 144,000 is Hebrew Rev. 7 tell us clearly that they will be totally Jewish in origin because they are called "children of Israel". The scripture tells us plainly that there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


                      Also, when Jesus was referring to the little flock it's clear it was the 12 he was referring to.

                      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta" <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have not study this topic....would you provide scriptures that say they
                      > are nature born Jews...and males?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -------Original Message-------
                      >
                      > From: Jim
                      > Date: 3/8/2010 2:25:44 AM
                      > To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta"
                      > <ajseekingthetruth@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply...
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Do you believe that there are 2 groups ... The Little Flock and the Other
                      > > sheep?
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, but not in the same way that the Witness do based off the context of
                      > the passage.
                      >
                      > The little flock was strictly, and only, those few men whom were following
                      > Jesus and who came to be known as the Apostles. For the WTBTS to be correct
                      > about this passage, they have to teach and believe that all of the 144,000
                      > are men. No women allowed. last I checked, this was not their belief.
                      >
                      > I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that the little flock are natural
                      > born Jews and that the other sheep are us gentile believers.
                      >
                      > I do not accept the 2 class division of the WTBTS that rival the
                      > clergy-laity distinction they accuse Christians of having.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Aletta
                      Rom. 2:28, 29: He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 11, 2010
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                        Rom. 2:28, 29:"He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is
                        circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew
                        who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by
                        spirit, and not by a written code."
                        These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe
                        of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here,
                        and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but
                        were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. Numbers 1:4-16.
                        Gal. 3:26-29 "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ
                        Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
                        freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in
                        union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really
                        Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise."
                        Also, do you think anytime the word 'man' is in the scripture it is
                        referring to 'male'? Or do you feel it is possible that it is MANKIND....
                        Is not woman also referred to as 'government'?




                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: Jim
                        Date: 3/10/2010 7:32:34 PM
                        To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.

                        Simple really.

                        In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are
                        called "the servants of our God" (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by God
                        for ministry before the 7th seal is opened. This number is exact of a
                        certain group of people – the Jews, 12,000 from 12 tribes (Rev.7:4).

                        Some people claim that we do not know who they all are. It does not matter,
                        God does.

                        The tribe of Dan is excluded (Revelation 7:6) and Manasseh who is one of the
                        sons of Joseph takes his place.)

                        The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel.
                        The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be
                        evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.

                        The genealogical background of the 144,000 is Hebrew Rev. 7 tell us clearly
                        that they will be totally Jewish in origin because they are called "children
                        of Israel". The scripture tells us plainly that there will be 12,000 from
                        each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


                        Also, when Jesus was referring to the little flock it's clear it was the 12
                        he was referring to.

                        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta"
                        <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have not study this topic....would you provide scriptures that say they
                        > are nature born Jews...and males?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -------Original Message-------
                        >
                        > From: Jim
                        > Date: 3/8/2010 2:25:44 AM
                        > To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: A question on salvation.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Aletta"
                        > <ajseekingthetruth@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Jim, A friend of mine and I was reading your reply...
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Do you believe that there are 2 groups ... The Little Flock and the
                        Other
                        > > sheep?
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes, but not in the same way that the Witness do based off the context of
                        > the passage.
                        >
                        > The little flock was strictly, and only, those few men whom were following
                        > Jesus and who came to be known as the Apostles. For the WTBTS to be
                        correct
                        > about this passage, they have to teach and believe that all of the 144,000
                        > are men. No women allowed. last I checked, this was not their belief.
                        >
                        > I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that the little flock are natural
                        > born Jews and that the other sheep are us gentile believers.
                        >
                        > I do not accept the 2 class division of the WTBTS that rival the
                        > clergy-laity distinction they accuse Christians of having.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >




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