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Stoning

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  • Darrell
    http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/06/iran17989_txt.htm Iran: Judiciary Must Prevent Imminent Executions by Stoning Revoke Sentences, End This Cruel and
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 10, 2008
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      http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/06/iran17989_txt.htm

      Iran: Judiciary Must Prevent Imminent Executions by Stoning Revoke
      Sentences, End This Cruel and Inhuman Punishment

      (Washington, DC, February 6, 2008) – The head of Iran's Judiciary,
      Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, should immediately revoke the
      sentences of death by stoning imposed on three persons convicted of
      adultery, Human Rights Watch said today. In separate cases, two
      sisters from the town of Shahriar in Tehran Province and a man from
      the town of Sari in the province of Mazandaran, are all at imminent
      risk of execution.

      "The Iranian government is set to execute three of its citizens in a
      horrendously brutal manner," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East
      director at Human Rights Watch. "The Judiciary must act now to end
      this inhuman form of punishment once and for all."

      In February 2007, authorities arrested sisters Zohreh Kabiri, 27,
      and Azar Kabiri, 28, on charges of having "illegal relationships"
      based on accusations made by one of their husbands. According to
      Iran's Islamic Penal Code, "immoral" relationships such as those
      between men and women who are not married, may be subject to
      criminal punishment. One month after their arrest, Branch 128 of the
      General Court of the city of Karaj convicted and sentenced the
      sisters to 99 lashes.

      Six months after officials handed down and executed the sentence,
      additional accusations by the husband of one of the sisters resulted
      in a second trial on more serious charges of adultery. Branch 80 of
      the Karaj Penal Court of the Tehran Province convicted the sisters
      on these charges and sentenced them to death by stoning. The Supreme
      Court has approved the ruling and the sentence may be carried out at
      any time.

      The Islamic Penal Code of Iran allows execution as a punishment for
      adultery, and allows it to be carried out by stoning for this
      offense. The practice involves throwing stones at the convicted
      individual, who is buried up to the waist (if he is a man) or up to
      the chest (if she is a woman), until the individual dies from impact
      of the blows.

      Jabar Solati, the lawyer for the two sisters, told Human Rights
      Watch that since the sentence has already been approved by the
      Supreme Court, only intervention by the country's highest judicial
      official, Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, can prevent the stoning
      from being carried out.

      Abdullah Farivar, 49, also faces execution by stoning. In December
      2006, authorities in the northern town of Sari arrested Farivar on
      charges of adultery. A year later, Branch Two of the Penal Court of
      Sari convicted Farivar and sentenced him to death by stoning. The
      Supreme Court has approved the sentence. According to statements
      attributed in the media to Farivar's family, local authorities
      informed them last week that the sentence would soon be carried
      out.

      Human Rights Watch opposes capital punishment in all circumstances
      because of its cruel, inhumane, and irrevocable nature. Iran is
      party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,
      which states in Article 6 that "in countries which have not
      abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only
      for the most serious crimes." Executions for crimes "beyond
      intentional crimes with lethal or other extremely grave
      consequences," are considered to violate the Covenant, and
      executions for adultery clearly fall into this category. According
      to Article 7 of the covenant, "no one shall be subjected to torture
      or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." As a
      particularly brutal form of execution, death by stoning violates the
      provisions of this Article.
    • Darrell
      Hello all, I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of weeks). I m trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program produced in Spain.
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 28, 2008
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        Hello all,

        I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of
        weeks). I'm trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program
        produced in Spain.

        One segment in the program dealt with Children and Stoning. I'm not
        sure exactly what they were talking about, because my Spanish is not
        that good, but one scene showed a young girl (about 10 years old)
        standing in a hole up to about her mid-waist. This was obviously
        just a reenactment, because the hole was not filled in with dirt.
        Standing around the girl were about 8 boys of the same age, with
        stones in each hand. A paper bag with cut-outs for eyes was placed
        over the young girls head.

        Seeing the girls tear filled eyes thorough the cut-outs in the paper
        bag made a very striking image. I couldn't help but remember this
        post and the recent news of a young woman that was scheduled to be
        stoned in Iran.

        Obviously, no one here approves of such a practice (at least I hope
        they don't), but I'm wondering how you all justify the idea that a
        loving and just God would command his people to institute this
        punishment for those found guilty of various sins such as infidelity?

        Though this practice was carried out long ago, by God's people, as
        commanded by God, we should not let the remoteness of the act
        diminish the cruetly and injumanity of such a practice.

        Well, it must be pray time, I hear the pray tower in the distance. I
        really wish I wasn't here.

        Sincerely,

        Darrell

        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
        <dldavis007@...> wrote:
        >
        > http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/06/iran17989_txt.htm
        >
        > Iran: Judiciary Must Prevent Imminent Executions by Stoning Revoke
        > Sentences, End This Cruel and Inhuman Punishment
        >
        > (Washington, DC, February 6, 2008) – The head of Iran's Judiciary,
        > Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, should immediately revoke the
        > sentences of death by stoning imposed on three persons convicted of
        > adultery, Human Rights Watch said today. In separate cases, two
        > sisters from the town of Shahriar in Tehran Province and a man from
        > the town of Sari in the province of Mazandaran, are all at imminent
        > risk of execution.
        >
        > "The Iranian government is set to execute three of its citizens in
        a
        > horrendously brutal manner," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East
        > director at Human Rights Watch. "The Judiciary must act now to end
        > this inhuman form of punishment once and for all."
        >
        > In February 2007, authorities arrested sisters Zohreh Kabiri, 27,
        > and Azar Kabiri, 28, on charges of having "illegal relationships"
        > based on accusations made by one of their husbands. According to
        > Iran's Islamic Penal Code, "immoral" relationships such as those
        > between men and women who are not married, may be subject to
        > criminal punishment. One month after their arrest, Branch 128 of
        the
        > General Court of the city of Karaj convicted and sentenced the
        > sisters to 99 lashes.
        >
        > Six months after officials handed down and executed the sentence,
        > additional accusations by the husband of one of the sisters
        resulted
        > in a second trial on more serious charges of adultery. Branch 80 of
        > the Karaj Penal Court of the Tehran Province convicted the sisters
        > on these charges and sentenced them to death by stoning. The
        Supreme
        > Court has approved the ruling and the sentence may be carried out
        at
        > any time.
        >
        > The Islamic Penal Code of Iran allows execution as a punishment for
        > adultery, and allows it to be carried out by stoning for this
        > offense. The practice involves throwing stones at the convicted
        > individual, who is buried up to the waist (if he is a man) or up to
        > the chest (if she is a woman), until the individual dies from
        impact
        > of the blows.
        >
        > Jabar Solati, the lawyer for the two sisters, told Human Rights
        > Watch that since the sentence has already been approved by the
        > Supreme Court, only intervention by the country's highest judicial
        > official, Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, can prevent the
        stoning
        > from being carried out.
        >
        > Abdullah Farivar, 49, also faces execution by stoning. In December
        > 2006, authorities in the northern town of Sari arrested Farivar on
        > charges of adultery. A year later, Branch Two of the Penal Court of
        > Sari convicted Farivar and sentenced him to death by stoning. The
        > Supreme Court has approved the sentence. According to statements
        > attributed in the media to Farivar's family, local authorities
        > informed them last week that the sentence would soon be carried
        > out.
        >
        > Human Rights Watch opposes capital punishment in all circumstances
        > because of its cruel, inhumane, and irrevocable nature. Iran is
        > party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,
        > which states in Article 6 that "in countries which have not
        > abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only
        > for the most serious crimes." Executions for crimes "beyond
        > intentional crimes with lethal or other extremely grave
        > consequences," are considered to violate the Covenant, and
        > executions for adultery clearly fall into this category. According
        > to Article 7 of the covenant, "no one shall be subjected to torture
        > or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." As a
        > particularly brutal form of execution, death by stoning violates
        the
        > provisions of this Article.
        >
      • alanna garth
        We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has seen him has also seen the Father: John 14:8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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          We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has
          seen him has also seen the Father:
          John 14:8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the
          Father, and it is enough for us.”

          9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long
          a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me?
          He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is
          it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

          Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has seen
          them has seen Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of
          the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:

          10 Since Christ Jesus is now the enthroned Leader and
          Commander of all fighters for truth and righteousness,
          we can unitedly ‘learn from watching him’ as the 300
          learned from watching Gideon. (Judges 7:17) ((((But
          how can we today ‘watch’ Christ, since he is
          invisible? We ‘watch’ him in the sense that we discern
          his signals as given through his visible “slave”
          appointee over all the earthly interests of his
          kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-47) Through this
          spirit-appointed channel his direction and strategy
          are communicated to all who are his “soldiers.”))))
          These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their own
          or become impatient because their view of things is
          not coming to pass. The timing of matters is provided
          by our invisible Commander. His view is the important
          consideration, not our own personal views.




          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Be a better friend, newshound, and
          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
        • donn reese
          What s wrong with being Catholic.... : D agape Donn Bishop of California ... From: alanna garth To:
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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            What's wrong with being Catholic.... : D

            agape

            Donn
            Bishop of California



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: alanna garth <pokealanna@...>
            To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:18:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: what a claim!

            We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has
            seen him has also seen the Father:
            John 14:8 Philip said to him: �Lord, show us the
            Father, and it is enough for us.�

            9 Jesus said to him: �Have I been with YOU men so long
            a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me?
            He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is
            it you say, �Show us the Father�?

            Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has seen
            them has seen Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of
            the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:

            10 Since Christ Jesus is now the enthroned Leader and
            Commander of all fighters for truth and righteousness,
            we can unitedly �learn from watching him� as the 300
            learned from watching Gideon. (Judges 7:17) ((((But
            how can we today �watch� Christ, since he is
            invisible? We �watch� him in the sense that we discern
            his signals as given through his visible �slave�
            appointee over all the earthly interests of his
            kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-47) Through this
            spirit-appointed channel his direction and strategy
            are communicated to all who are his �soldiers.�))) )
            These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their own
            or become impatient because their view of things is
            not coming to pass. The timing of matters is provided
            by our invisible Commander. His view is the important
            consideration, not our own personal views.

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Be a better friend, newshound, and
            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ





            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Be a better friend, newshound, and
            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • donn reese
            Wow Darrell, you are getting the cultural and religious education of a lifetime. The stoning of Stephen recorded in the Book of Acts is a reminder of this
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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              Wow Darrell, you are getting the cultural and religious education of a lifetime.

              The stoning of Stephen recorded in the Book of Acts is a reminder of this punishment existing at the time of Christ.
              Its interesting too that stoning by the Jewish Leaders (capital punishment) was allowed by the Romans. You wonder, if the Sanhedrin had this power why they handed Jesus over to the Romans for execution instead of stoning him.

              Donn



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Darrell <dldavis007@...>
              To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:46:14 PM
              Subject: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: Stoning

              Hello all,

              I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of
              weeks). I'm trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program
              produced in Spain.

              One segment in the program dealt with Children and Stoning. I'm not
              sure exactly what they were talking about, because my Spanish is not
              that good, but one scene showed a young girl (about 10 years old)
              standing in a hole up to about her mid-waist. This was obviously
              just a reenactment, because the hole was not filled in with dirt.
              Standing around the girl were about 8 boys of the same age, with
              stones in each hand. A paper bag with cut-outs for eyes was placed
              over the young girls head.

              Seeing the girls tear filled eyes thorough the cut-outs in the paper
              bag made a very striking image. I couldn't help but remember this
              post and the recent news of a young woman that was scheduled to be
              stoned in Iran.

              Obviously, no one here approves of such a practice (at least I hope
              they don't), but I'm wondering how you all justify the idea that a
              loving and just God would command his people to institute this
              punishment for those found guilty of various sins such as infidelity?

              Though this practice was carried out long ago, by God's people, as
              commanded by God, we should not let the remoteness of the act
              diminish the cruetly and injumanity of such a practice.

              Well, it must be pray time, I hear the pray tower in the distance. I
              really wish I wasn't here.

              Sincerely,

              Darrell

              --- In jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com, "Darrell"
              <dldavis007@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > http://hrw.org/ english/docs/ 2008/02/06/ iran17989_ txt.htm
              >
              > Iran: Judiciary Must Prevent Imminent Executions by Stoning Revoke
              > Sentences, End This Cruel and Inhuman Punishment
              >
              > (Washington, DC, February 6, 2008) � The head of Iran's Judiciary,
              > Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, should immediately revoke the
              > sentences of death by stoning imposed on three persons convicted of
              > adultery, Human Rights Watch said today. In separate cases, two
              > sisters from the town of Shahriar in Tehran Province and a man from
              > the town of Sari in the province of Mazandaran, are all at imminent
              > risk of execution.
              >
              > "The Iranian government is set to execute three of its citizens in
              a
              > horrendously brutal manner," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East
              > director at Human Rights Watch. "The Judiciary must act now to end
              > this inhuman form of punishment once and for all."
              >
              > In February 2007, authorities arrested sisters Zohreh Kabiri, 27,
              > and Azar Kabiri, 28, on charges of having "illegal relationships"
              > based on accusations made by one of their husbands. According to
              > Iran's Islamic Penal Code, "immoral" relationships such as those
              > between men and women who are not married, may be subject to
              > criminal punishment. One month after their arrest, Branch 128 of
              the
              > General Court of the city of Karaj convicted and sentenced the
              > sisters to 99 lashes.
              >
              > Six months after officials handed down and executed the sentence,
              > additional accusations by the husband of one of the sisters
              resulted
              > in a second trial on more serious charges of adultery. Branch 80 of
              > the Karaj Penal Court of the Tehran Province convicted the sisters
              > on these charges and sentenced them to death by stoning. The
              Supreme
              > Court has approved the ruling and the sentence may be carried out
              at
              > any time.
              >
              > The Islamic Penal Code of Iran allows execution as a punishment for
              > adultery, and allows it to be carried out by stoning for this
              > offense. The practice involves throwing stones at the convicted
              > individual, who is buried up to the waist (if he is a man) or up to
              > the chest (if she is a woman), until the individual dies from
              impact
              > of the blows.
              >
              > Jabar Solati, the lawyer for the two sisters, told Human Rights
              > Watch that since the sentence has already been approved by the
              > Supreme Court, only intervention by the country's highest judicial
              > official, Ayatollah Mahmud Hashemi Shahrudi, can prevent the
              stoning
              > from being carried out.
              >
              > Abdullah Farivar, 49, also faces execution by stoning. In December
              > 2006, authorities in the northern town of Sari arrested Farivar on
              > charges of adultery. A year later, Branch Two of the Penal Court of
              > Sari convicted Farivar and sentenced him to death by stoning. The
              > Supreme Court has approved the sentence. According to statements
              > attributed in the media to Farivar's family, local authorities
              > informed them last week that the sentence would soon be carried
              > out.
              >
              > Human Rights Watch opposes capital punishment in all circumstances
              > because of its cruel, inhumane, and irrevocable nature. Iran is
              > party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,
              > which states in Article 6 that "in countries which have not
              > abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only
              > for the most serious crimes." Executions for crimes "beyond
              > intentional crimes with lethal or other extremely grave
              > consequences, " are considered to violate the Covenant, and
              > executions for adultery clearly fall into this category. According
              > to Article 7 of the covenant, "no one shall be subjected to torture
              > or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." As a
              > particularly brutal form of execution, death by stoning violates
              the
              > provisions of this Article.
              >





              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Be a better friend, newshound, and
              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • alanna garth
              LOL Donn Good to see ya. How r ya these days? ... http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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                LOL Donn
                Good to see ya. How r ya these days?
                --- donn reese <tlkreese@...> wrote:

                > What's wrong with being Catholic.... : D
                >
                > agape
                >
                > Donn
                > Bishop of California
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: alanna garth <pokealanna@...>
                > To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:18:40 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re:
                > what a claim!
                >
                > We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has
                > seen him has also seen the Father:
                > John 14:8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the
                > Father, and it is enough for us.”
                >
                > 9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so
                > long
                > a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know
                > me?
                > He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How
                > is
                > it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
                >
                > Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has
                > seen
                > them has seen Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of
                > the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:
                >
                > 10 Since Christ Jesus is now the enthroned Leader
                > and
                > Commander of all fighters for truth and
                > righteousness,
                > we can unitedly ‘learn from watching him’ as the 300
                > learned from watching Gideon. (Judges 7:17) ((((But
                > how can we today ‘watch’ Christ, since he is
                > invisible? We ‘watch’ him in the sense that we
                > discern
                > his signals as given through his visible “slave”
                > appointee over all the earthly interests of his
                > kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-47) Through this
                > spirit-appointed channel his direction and strategy
                > are communicated to all who are his “soldiers.”))) )
                > These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their
                > own
                > or become impatient because their view of things is
                > not coming to pass. The timing of matters is
                > provided
                > by our invisible Commander. His view is the
                > important
                > consideration, not our own personal views.
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                > _________ _
                > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
                > 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                >
                http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jehovahswitnessesgathering/
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jehovahswitnessesgathering/join
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
                mailto:jehovahswitnessesgathering-digest@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                mailto:jehovahswitnessesgathering-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                jehovahswitnessesgathering-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >



                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
              • donn reese
                Doing ok, just getting older. I m going to be a grandpa in October. ... From: alanna garth To:
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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                  Doing ok, just getting older. I'm going to be a grandpa in October.




                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: alanna garth <pokealanna@...>
                  To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 6:11:11 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: what a claim!

                  LOL Donn
                  Good to see ya. How r ya these days?
                  --- donn reese <tlkreese@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  > What's wrong with being Catholic.... : D
                  >
                  > agape
                  >
                  > Donn
                  > Bishop of California
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: alanna garth <pokealanna@yahoo. com>
                  > To: jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:18:40 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re:
                  > what a claim!
                  >
                  > We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has
                  > seen him has also seen the Father:
                  > John 14:8 Philip said to him: �Lord, show us the
                  > Father, and it is enough for us.�
                  >
                  > 9 Jesus said to him: �Have I been with YOU men so
                  > long
                  > a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know
                  > me?
                  > He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How
                  > is
                  > it you say, �Show us the Father�?
                  >
                  > Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has
                  > seen
                  > them has seen Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of
                  > the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:
                  >
                  > 10 Since Christ Jesus is now the enthroned Leader
                  > and
                  > Commander of all fighters for truth and
                  > righteousness,
                  > we can unitedly �learn from watching him� as the 300
                  > learned from watching Gideon. (Judges 7:17) ((((But
                  > how can we today �watch� Christ, since he is
                  > invisible? We �watch� him in the sense that we
                  > discern
                  > his signals as given through his visible �slave�
                  > appointee over all the earthly interests of his
                  > kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-47) Through this
                  > spirit-appointed channel his direction and strategy
                  > are communicated to all who are his �soldiers.�))) )
                  > These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their
                  > own
                  > or become impatient because their view of things is
                  > not coming to pass. The timing of matters is
                  > provided
                  > by our invisible Commander. His view is the
                  > important
                  > consideration, not our own personal views.
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                  > _________ _
                  > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                  > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
                  > 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                  >
                  http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/jehovahswi tnessesgathering /
                  >
                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/jehovahswi tnessesgathering /join
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                • alanna garth
                  congrats sir! ... http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jehovahswitnessesgathering/ ...
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 29, 2008
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                    congrats sir!
                    --- donn reese <tlkreese@...> wrote:

                    > Doing ok, just getting older. I'm going to be a
                    > grandpa in October.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: alanna garth <pokealanna@...>
                    > To: jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 6:11:11 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re:
                    > what a claim!
                    >
                    > LOL Donn
                    > Good to see ya. How r ya these days?
                    > --- donn reese <tlkreese@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    >
                    > > What's wrong with being Catholic.... : D
                    > >
                    > > agape
                    > >
                    > > Donn
                    > > Bishop of California
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                    > > From: alanna garth <pokealanna@yahoo. com>
                    > > To: jehovahswitnessesga thering@yahoogro ups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 5:18:40 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re:
                    > > what a claim!
                    > >
                    > > We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that
                    > has
                    > > seen him has also seen the Father:
                    > > John 14:8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the
                    > > Father, and it is enough for us.”
                    > >
                    > > 9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so
                    > > long
                    > > a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know
                    > > me?
                    > > He that has seen me has seen the Father [also].
                    > How
                    > > is
                    > > it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
                    > >
                    > > Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has
                    > > seen
                    > > them has seen Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of
                    > > the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:
                    > >
                    > > 10 Since Christ Jesus is now the enthroned Leader
                    > > and
                    > > Commander of all fighters for truth and
                    > > righteousness,
                    > > we can unitedly ‘learn from watching him’ as the
                    > 300
                    > > learned from watching Gideon. (Judges 7:17)
                    > ((((But
                    > > how can we today ‘watch’ Christ, since he is
                    > > invisible? We ‘watch’ him in the sense that we
                    > > discern
                    > > his signals as given through his visible “slave”
                    > > appointee over all the earthly interests of his
                    > > kingdom. (Matthew 24:45-47) Through this
                    > > spirit-appointed channel his direction and
                    > strategy
                    > > are communicated to all who are his “soldiers.”)))
                    > )
                    > > These latter cannot afford to move ahead on their
                    > > own
                    > > or become impatient because their view of things
                    > is
                    > > not coming to pass. The timing of matters is
                    > > provided
                    > > by our invisible Commander. His view is the
                    > > important
                    > > consideration, not our own personal views.
                    > >
                    > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
                    > _________
                    > > _________ _
                    > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                    > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                    > > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR
                    > > 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
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                    > 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/jehovahswi
                    > tnessesgathering /
                    > >
                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/jehovahswi
                    > tnessesgathering /join
                    > > (Yahoo! ID required)
                    > >
                    > mailto:jehovahswitnessesga thering-digest@
                    > yahoogroups. com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > mailto:jehovahswitnessesga thering-fullfeat
                    > ured@yahoogroups .com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > jehovahswitnessesga thering-unsubscr
                    > ibe@yahoogroups. com
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                    > _________ _
                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.
                    > search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category=
                    > shopping
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    >
                    http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
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                    >
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                    >



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                  • Ryck
                    ... I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of weeks). I m trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program produced in Spain. ... LOL!
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 2 9:52 AM
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                      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                      <dldavis007@...> wrote:

                      >>
                      I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of
                      weeks). I'm trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program
                      produced in Spain.
                      >>

                      LOL!

                      Isn't that a little weird? What I mean is, wouldn't it be a little
                      unusual, say, to go to Japan in order to learn French? :)

                      I'm impressed that there is international offering in the Saudi
                      media, however.

                      >>
                      One segment in the program dealt with Children and Stoning. I'm not
                      sure exactly what they were talking about, because my Spanish is not
                      that good, but one scene showed a young girl (about 10 years old)
                      standing in a hole up to about her mid-waist. This was obviously
                      just a reenactment, because the hole was not filled in with dirt.
                      Standing around the girl were about 8 boys of the same age, with
                      stones in each hand. A paper bag with cut-outs for eyes was placed
                      over the young girls head.
                      >>

                      I'm not aware of any culture, current or past, where of stoning of
                      children participated solely by other children.

                      I doubt the validity of what you saw. I'm not saying you didn't see
                      it. But remember it was a dramatizationa rather than actual news
                      footage. It may even have been a work of fiction -- you are not sure
                      of what you were seeing.


                      >>
                      Seeing the girls tear filled eyes thorough the cut-outs in the paper
                      bag made a very striking image. I couldn't help but remember this
                      post and the recent news of a young woman that was scheduled to be
                      stoned in Iran.
                      >>

                      Dramatic effect, I'm sure. But the two cases are different.



                      >>
                      Obviously, no one here approves of such a practice (at least I hope
                      they don't), but I'm wondering how you all justify the idea that a
                      loving and just God would command his people to institute this
                      punishment for those found guilty of various sins such as infidelity?
                      >>

                      The Bible doesn't detail the whole process of stoning. What we do
                      know is that stoning was not a mob justice affair. It had to be
                      judicial process first with witnesses testifying and the matter
                      spoken about by both sides in the open public. And it had to be
                      officially authorized, had to be a capital punishment affair, and had
                      to be done outside of the city.

                      Furthermore, according to Mosaic Law, you need at least two witnesses
                      to testify in a capital case. If you had less than this then
                      execution was impossible. If the witnesses requirement was met then
                      those witnesses had to be the first to throw the stones. Then
                      everyone joined in.

                      The idea that the witnesses being also the executioners no doubt made
                      them very sure about what they are saying and not offer false
                      testimony. Because the penalty of a lying witness in stoning was
                      capital punishment by stoning as well!


                      >>
                      Though this practice was carried out long ago, by God's people, as
                      commanded by God, we should not let the remoteness of the act
                      diminish the cruetly and injumanity of such a practice.
                      >>

                      Back then people were compelled to be part of the judicial system
                      from beginning to end. Now a lot of the judicial system in insular,
                      removed, separate. Executions are done by officials, hidden away, and
                      as efficiently as possible. All you know is that the criminal's life
                      is over.

                      No one likes the job. But when captital public is done in public view
                      with public participation it does makes the law personal than a
                      theory, and helps everyone appreciate the value of keeping one
                      neighbor's wholeness by not violating your neighbor's wholeness.

                      Obviously, no one likes what needs to be done. But somebody has to do
                      it if there are those that presume to prey on the rights of others
                      rather than respect them; and just knowing that it is wrong is not a
                      deterrent to the would-be criminal.

                      Remember that the USA has the highest prison population in the world -
                      and rising. There are over 2 million US citizens in jail and the
                      jails are overpopulated as it is. Simply putting people into jail
                      isn't working, especially that most that leave jail are back in jail
                      again.

                      A lot of people out there are getting hurt out there by increasing
                      criminal activity. Criminals are getting bolder and more law savvy.
                      And what deterrents to crime that are left are gradually losing their
                      intended effect.

                      So which is really better? And who is really living in horror and
                      fear?

                      My two cents.


                      .r.
                    • Ryck
                      ... We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has seen him has also seen the Father: John 14:8 Philip said to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 2 10:04 AM
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                        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, alanna garth
                        <pokealanna@...> wrote:

                        >>
                        We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has seen him has also
                        seen the Father: John 14:8 Philip said to him: "Lord, show us the
                        Father, and it is enough for us."

                        9 Jesus said to him: "Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and
                        yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has
                        seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, `Show us the Father'?

                        Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has seen them has seen
                        Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of the June 1, 1982 WT...page 23:

                        [snip]
                        >>

                        Hi Alanna

                        I'm online in the group's website. According to Yahoo your post was
                        branched off as a reply to Darrell.

                        I'm wondering what does this reply to Darrell's stoning observation
                        have to do with Darrell's stoning observation???


                        .r.
                      • alanna garth
                        Sorry Ryck I don t know how to start a new post. Thats why I changed the subject line. How do i start a new post? ...
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 3 7:45 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Sorry Ryck
                          I don't know how to start a new post.
                          Thats why I changed the subject line.
                          How do i start a new post?
                          --- Ryck <odracyr@...> wrote:

                          > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
                          > alanna garth
                          > <pokealanna@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >>
                          > We all know that Jesus told Thomas that he that has
                          > seen him has also
                          > seen the Father: John 14:8 Philip said to him:
                          > "Lord, show us the
                          > Father, and it is enough for us."
                          >
                          > 9 Jesus said to him: "Have I been with YOU men so
                          > long a time, and
                          > yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that
                          > has seen me has
                          > seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, `Show us
                          > the Father'?
                          >
                          > Well, the WTS has felt fit to say that he who has
                          > seen them has seen
                          > Jesus. Take a look a paragraph 10 of the June 1,
                          > 1982 WT...page 23:
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          > >>
                          >
                          > Hi Alanna
                          >
                          > I'm online in the group's website. According to
                          > Yahoo your post was
                          > branched off as a reply to Darrell.
                          >
                          > I'm wondering what does this reply to Darrell's
                          > stoning observation
                          > have to do with Darrell's stoning observation???
                          >
                          >
                          > .r.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                        • Ryck
                          ... Sorry Ryck I don t know how to start a new post. Thats why I changed the subject line. How do i start a new post? ... No problem. Just looked funny. :D If
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 3 10:39 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, alanna garth
                            <pokealanna@...> wrote:

                            >>
                            Sorry Ryck
                            I don't know how to start a new post.
                            Thats why I changed the subject line.
                            How do i start a new post?
                            >>

                            No problem. Just looked funny. :D

                            If you are doing this online at the group's website, click on the POST
                            link just under the MESSAGES link. That starts a brand new post using
                            your Subject as the head of the thread.

                            Hope this helps.

                            .r.
                          • Jim
                            ... Congrats and better you then me :P
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 4 6:41 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, donn reese
                              <tlkreese@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Doing ok, just getting older. I'm going to be a grandpa in October.
                              >


                              Congrats and better you then me :P
                            • Darrell
                              Ryck, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly states that
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 5 11:00 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ryck,

                                Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a
                                virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly
                                states that infidelity is punishable by death.

                                Do you feel that those who where found guilty and punished
                                accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of such extreme
                                punishment?

                                Sincerely,

                                Darrell

                                --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Ryck"
                                <odracyr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                > <dldavis007@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >>
                                > I happen to be in Saudi right now (probably be here a couple of
                                > weeks). I'm trying to learn Spanish, so I found a News program
                                > produced in Spain.
                                > >>
                                >
                                > LOL!
                                >
                                > Isn't that a little weird? What I mean is, wouldn't it be a little
                                > unusual, say, to go to Japan in order to learn French? :)
                                >
                                > I'm impressed that there is international offering in the Saudi
                                > media, however.
                                >
                                > >>
                                > One segment in the program dealt with Children and Stoning. I'm
                                not
                                > sure exactly what they were talking about, because my Spanish is
                                not
                                > that good, but one scene showed a young girl (about 10 years old)
                                > standing in a hole up to about her mid-waist. This was obviously
                                > just a reenactment, because the hole was not filled in with dirt.
                                > Standing around the girl were about 8 boys of the same age, with
                                > stones in each hand. A paper bag with cut-outs for eyes was placed
                                > over the young girls head.
                                > >>
                                >
                                > I'm not aware of any culture, current or past, where of stoning of
                                > children participated solely by other children.
                                >
                                > I doubt the validity of what you saw. I'm not saying you didn't see
                                > it. But remember it was a dramatizationa rather than actual news
                                > footage. It may even have been a work of fiction -- you are not
                                sure
                                > of what you were seeing.
                                >
                                >
                                > >>
                                > Seeing the girls tear filled eyes thorough the cut-outs in the
                                paper
                                > bag made a very striking image. I couldn't help but remember this
                                > post and the recent news of a young woman that was scheduled to be
                                > stoned in Iran.
                                > >>
                                >
                                > Dramatic effect, I'm sure. But the two cases are different.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >>
                                > Obviously, no one here approves of such a practice (at least I hope
                                > they don't), but I'm wondering how you all justify the idea that a
                                > loving and just God would command his people to institute this
                                > punishment for those found guilty of various sins such as
                                infidelity?
                                > >>
                                >
                                > The Bible doesn't detail the whole process of stoning. What we do
                                > know is that stoning was not a mob justice affair. It had to be
                                > judicial process first with witnesses testifying and the matter
                                > spoken about by both sides in the open public. And it had to be
                                > officially authorized, had to be a capital punishment affair, and
                                had
                                > to be done outside of the city.
                                >
                                > Furthermore, according to Mosaic Law, you need at least two
                                witnesses
                                > to testify in a capital case. If you had less than this then
                                > execution was impossible. If the witnesses requirement was met then
                                > those witnesses had to be the first to throw the stones. Then
                                > everyone joined in.
                                >
                                > The idea that the witnesses being also the executioners no doubt
                                made
                                > them very sure about what they are saying and not offer false
                                > testimony. Because the penalty of a lying witness in stoning was
                                > capital punishment by stoning as well!
                                >
                                >
                                > >>
                                > Though this practice was carried out long ago, by God's people, as
                                > commanded by God, we should not let the remoteness of the act
                                > diminish the cruetly and injumanity of such a practice.
                                > >>
                                >
                                > Back then people were compelled to be part of the judicial system
                                > from beginning to end. Now a lot of the judicial system in insular,
                                > removed, separate. Executions are done by officials, hidden away,
                                and
                                > as efficiently as possible. All you know is that the criminal's
                                life
                                > is over.
                                >
                                > No one likes the job. But when captital public is done in public
                                view
                                > with public participation it does makes the law personal than a
                                > theory, and helps everyone appreciate the value of keeping one
                                > neighbor's wholeness by not violating your neighbor's wholeness.
                                >
                                > Obviously, no one likes what needs to be done. But somebody has to
                                do
                                > it if there are those that presume to prey on the rights of others
                                > rather than respect them; and just knowing that it is wrong is not
                                a
                                > deterrent to the would-be criminal.
                                >
                                > Remember that the USA has the highest prison population in the
                                world -
                                > and rising. There are over 2 million US citizens in jail and the
                                > jails are overpopulated as it is. Simply putting people into jail
                                > isn't working, especially that most that leave jail are back in
                                jail
                                > again.
                                >
                                > A lot of people out there are getting hurt out there by increasing
                                > criminal activity. Criminals are getting bolder and more law savvy.
                                > And what deterrents to crime that are left are gradually losing
                                their
                                > intended effect.
                                >
                                > So which is really better? And who is really living in horror and
                                > fear?
                                >
                                > My two cents.
                                >
                                >
                                > .r.
                                >
                              • Ryck
                                ... Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly states that
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 6 2:05 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                  <dldavis007@...> wrote:

                                  >>
                                  Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a
                                  virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly
                                  states that infidelity is punishable by death.
                                  >>

                                  No, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states several things.

                                  22:13-19 -- If a man charges that the woman he married was not a
                                  virgin but proof of her virginity is provided, not only is he heavily
                                  fined but he will be barred for the rest of his life from ever
                                  divorcing her.

                                  22:20-21 -- I think this is the one you mean. Didn't you read it
                                  carefully? Punishment is applied if the woman passed herself off as a
                                  virgin when she was not.

                                  >>
                                  Do you feel that those who where found guilty and punished
                                  accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of such extreme
                                  punishment?
                                  >>

                                  Different culture, Darrell. Someone from OT times would probably
                                  wonder what extreme punishment over 55 million unborn babies deserved
                                  via abortion each year?

                                  .r.
                                • alanna garth
                                  I concur with Ryck on this. ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 6 4:36 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I concur with Ryck on this.
                                    --- Ryck <odracyr@...> wrote:

                                    > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > "Darrell"
                                    > <dldavis007@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >>
                                    > Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman
                                    > found not to be a
                                    > virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death.
                                    > It also clearly
                                    > states that infidelity is punishable by death.
                                    > >>
                                    >
                                    > No, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states several
                                    > things.
                                    >
                                    > 22:13-19 -- If a man charges that the woman he
                                    > married was not a
                                    > virgin but proof of her virginity is provided, not
                                    > only is he heavily
                                    > fined but he will be barred for the rest of his life
                                    > from ever
                                    > divorcing her.
                                    >
                                    > 22:20-21 -- I think this is the one you mean. Didn't
                                    > you read it
                                    > carefully? Punishment is applied if the woman passed
                                    > herself off as a
                                    > virgin when she was not.
                                    >
                                    > >>
                                    > Do you feel that those who where found guilty and
                                    > punished
                                    > accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of
                                    > such extreme
                                    > punishment?
                                    > >>
                                    >
                                    > Different culture, Darrell. Someone from OT times
                                    > would probably
                                    > wonder what extreme punishment over 55 million
                                    > unborn babies deserved
                                    > via abortion each year?
                                    >
                                    > .r.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                    Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                    know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                                  • Jim
                                    ... heavily ... a ... deserved ... I second this reply.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 6 10:03 AM
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                                      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Ryck"
                                      <odracyr@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                      > <dldavis007@> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >>
                                      > Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a
                                      > virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly
                                      > states that infidelity is punishable by death.
                                      > >>
                                      >
                                      > No, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states several things.
                                      >
                                      > 22:13-19 -- If a man charges that the woman he married was not a
                                      > virgin but proof of her virginity is provided, not only is he
                                      heavily
                                      > fined but he will be barred for the rest of his life from ever
                                      > divorcing her.
                                      >
                                      > 22:20-21 -- I think this is the one you mean. Didn't you read it
                                      > carefully? Punishment is applied if the woman passed herself off as
                                      a
                                      > virgin when she was not.
                                      >
                                      > >>
                                      > Do you feel that those who where found guilty and punished
                                      > accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of such extreme
                                      > punishment?
                                      > >>
                                      >
                                      > Different culture, Darrell. Someone from OT times would probably
                                      > wonder what extreme punishment over 55 million unborn babies
                                      deserved
                                      > via abortion each year?
                                      >
                                      > .r.
                                      >


                                      I second this reply.
                                    • Darrell
                                      ... heavily ... a ... I love how you turned that to your advantage. I guess you can read after all. I will have to remember in the future, not to give you so
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 6 12:29 PM
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                                        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Ryck"
                                        <odracyr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                        > <dldavis007@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >>
                                        > Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be a
                                        > virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also clearly
                                        > states that infidelity is punishable by death.
                                        > >>
                                        >
                                        > No, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states several things.
                                        >
                                        > 22:13-19 -- If a man charges that the woman he married was not a
                                        > virgin but proof of her virginity is provided, not only is he
                                        heavily
                                        > fined but he will be barred for the rest of his life from ever
                                        > divorcing her.
                                        >
                                        > 22:20-21 -- I think this is the one you mean. Didn't you read it
                                        > carefully? Punishment is applied if the woman passed herself off as
                                        a
                                        > virgin when she was not.
                                        >

                                        I love how you turned that to your advantage. I guess you can read
                                        after all.

                                        I will have to remember in the future, not to give you so many
                                        scriptures at once without spoon feeding you the exact meaning of
                                        each.

                                        Let's see now;

                                        Not a Virgin = death by stoning.

                                        After all of your posturing, we still agree.

                                        > >>
                                        > Do you feel that those who where found guilty and punished
                                        > accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of such extreme
                                        > punishment?
                                        > >>
                                        >
                                        > Different culture, Darrell. Someone from OT times would probably
                                        > wonder what extreme punishment over 55 million unborn babies
                                        deserved
                                        > via abortion each year?
                                        >

                                        That's great Ryck, your using one atrocity to ignore another. Great
                                        emotional appeal though.

                                        Now would you mind answering the question?

                                        Sincerely,

                                        Darrell
                                      • Jim
                                        ... a ... clearly ... as ... Did you need to be so condesending?
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 6 5:32 PM
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                                          --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                          <dldavis007@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Ryck"
                                          > <odracyr@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                          > > <dldavis007@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > >>
                                          > > Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states that a woman found not to be
                                          a
                                          > > virgin upon her wedding should be stoned to death. It also
                                          clearly
                                          > > states that infidelity is punishable by death.
                                          > > >>
                                          > >
                                          > > No, Deuteronomy 22:13-24 clearly states several things.
                                          > >
                                          > > 22:13-19 -- If a man charges that the woman he married was not a
                                          > > virgin but proof of her virginity is provided, not only is he
                                          > heavily
                                          > > fined but he will be barred for the rest of his life from ever
                                          > > divorcing her.
                                          > >
                                          > > 22:20-21 -- I think this is the one you mean. Didn't you read it
                                          > > carefully? Punishment is applied if the woman passed herself off
                                          as
                                          > a
                                          > > virgin when she was not.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > I love how you turned that to your advantage. I guess you can read
                                          > after all.
                                          >
                                          > I will have to remember in the future, not to give you so many
                                          > scriptures at once without spoon feeding you the exact meaning of
                                          > each.
                                          >
                                          > Let's see now;
                                          >
                                          > Not a Virgin = death by stoning.
                                          >
                                          > After all of your posturing, we still agree.
                                          >
                                          > > >>
                                          > > Do you feel that those who where found guilty and punished
                                          > > accordingly back in the OT times were deserving of such extreme
                                          > > punishment?
                                          > > >>
                                          > >
                                          > > Different culture, Darrell. Someone from OT times would probably
                                          > > wonder what extreme punishment over 55 million unborn babies
                                          > deserved
                                          > > via abortion each year?
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > That's great Ryck, your using one atrocity to ignore another. Great
                                          > emotional appeal though.
                                          >
                                          > Now would you mind answering the question?
                                          >
                                          > Sincerely,
                                          >
                                          > Darrell
                                          >


                                          Did you need to be so condesending?
                                        • Darrell
                                          ... Yes, I thought it was appropriate, considering that Ryck twisted my simple statement and reference to make it appear that I didn t understand what I had
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 6 11:26 PM
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                                            > Did you need to be so condesending?
                                            >

                                            Yes, I thought it was appropriate, considering that Ryck twisted my
                                            simple statement and reference to make it appear that I didn't
                                            understand what I had read.

                                            My main point in providing the statement and the reference was to
                                            show that the Bible establishes stoning as punishment in certain
                                            cases. I provided the reference as a courtesy so everyone would know
                                            that I wasn't making this stuff up. I didn't feel it was necessary to
                                            discuss the minute details just to make my point.

                                            Ryck's little venture into the semantics just to belittle me was
                                            uncalled for and just plain childish.

                                            Then to top it off he cleverly avoids answering the question with
                                            some emotional appeal that gets others in the group concurring with
                                            his reply. I still haven't figured out why everyone was so happy with
                                            his non-answer.

                                            Maybe I've hit upon a touchy issue and everyone would be happy if it
                                            would just go away. Perhaps Ryck's answer was good enough for those
                                            who don't want to consider the implications of a God who would
                                            establish such a cruel means of justice.

                                            Sincerely,

                                            Darrell
                                          • Ryck
                                            ... Let s see now; Not a Virgin = death by stoning. After all of your posturing, we still agree. ... No, after your posturing we don t agree. Read my reply
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 8 1:20 PM
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                                              --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
                                              <dldavis007@...> wrote:


                                              >>
                                              Let's see now;

                                              Not a Virgin = death by stoning.

                                              After all of your posturing, we still agree.
                                              >>

                                              No, after your posturing we don't agree. Read my reply again. It was
                                              for a woman who passed herself off as a virgin when she wasn't. If
                                              the woman is not a virgin and the man who marries her knew that, no
                                              problem.


                                              >>
                                              That's great Ryck, your using one atrocity to ignore another. Great
                                              emotional appeal though.

                                              Now would you mind answering the question?
                                              >>

                                              I did answer the question -- using the same level of emotional appeal
                                              you did.

                                              Have a nice day.

                                              .r.
                                            • Darrell
                                              ... Why do you continue to argue this point? Are you so desperate to avoid the question that you find it necessary to continue harping on this? The exact
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 11 9:10 AM
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                                                > No, after your posturing we don't agree. Read my reply again.
                                                > It was for a woman who passed herself off as a virgin when
                                                > she wasn't. If the woman is not a virgin and the man who
                                                > marries her knew that, no problem.

                                                Why do you continue to argue this point?

                                                Are you so desperate to avoid the question that you find it necessary
                                                to continue harping on this?

                                                The exact reason for the punishment was not that relevant to my
                                                question to begin with. Whether she was stoned to death for not being
                                                a virgin, or for passing herself off as a virgin when she was not, is
                                                really kind of pointless considering the gravity of the punishment.
                                                Your petty arguments about this point are rather amusing though.

                                                By the way, the second half of Deut 22:21 does a good job of
                                                explaining why she is to be stoned to death. I think it does such a
                                                good job, that I will let it speak for itself:

                                                "She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous
                                                while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among
                                                you."



                                                The other point you make about it not being a problem if the man
                                                already knew before he marries her is so far off base I'm not even
                                                sure why you bring it up.

                                                Not only does Deut 22:21 (above) show that Israeli women are expected
                                                to be virgins at marriage, but also notice that the first two verses
                                                concerning the matter establish the situation. Which by the way never
                                                addresses the issue of a man that already knows the woman he is
                                                marrying is not a virgin.

                                                Again, let's let the verses speak for themselves:

                                                13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14
                                                and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this
                                                woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her
                                                virginity,"



                                                > I did answer the question -- using the same level of emotional
                                                appeal
                                                > you did.
                                                >

                                                I'm still waiting for an answer.

                                                Sincerely,

                                                Darrell
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