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memorial

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  • Steve Klemetti
    ... What rationalization is there? That is the problem, to you it is a ritual. To us it is not. ... But we were not instructed to eat or drink of it. Those
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 7, 2007
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      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
      <dldavis007@...> wrote:
      >
      > I never have understood how JW's can rationalize their actions in
      > what is probably the most important Christian ritual.

      What rationalization is there?

      That is the problem, to you it is a ritual. To us it is not.

      > It's my understanding, that religous rituals usually involve
      > participation. In order to participate in this ritual, you must
      > actually participate, in other words, you must eat and drink as
      > instructed in the Bible. Anything short of this is a hollow
      > representation of the ritual, if not an outright rejection of
      > Christianity.

      But we were not instructed to eat or drink of it. Those 11 in that
      room were.


      > It seems that JW's claim to be Christians, but then they
      > purposefully refuse to follow through with Christianity's most
      > important ritual. Quite a strange way to act if you ask me.

      No one asked you.

      We do not follow rituals. Jesus and his death were not rituals.

      IT is just something done in remembrance.



      >
      > Darrell
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Klemetti"
      > <sklemetti@> wrote:
      > >
      > > It is about remembering Jesus' body and blood by the symbols, not
      > > eating them.
      > >
      > > You miss the point.
      > >
      > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell"
      > > <dldavis007@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Even better, they could just pretend that there is bread and
      > wine.
      > > > Hardly anyone partakes anyway.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, alanna garth
      > > > <pokealanna@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I was wondering if the WT has ever considered the
      > > > > following as a cost-cutting method- each year for the
      > > > > Memorial (since so few partakers and many halls have
      > > > > not even 1 partaker....how about if instead of the
      > > > > cong purchases wine and Matza instead they have those
      > > > > who want to partake bring their own emblems? This
      > > > > would save the congs worldwide a few bucks for sure.
      > > > > Hey, is this New Light that I just thought of? Oh
      > > > > my!!
      > > > > Any thoughts on this New Light?
      > > > >
      > > > > __________________________________________________
      > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
      > around
      > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Steve Klemetti
      ... To get counted in the attendance.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 7, 2007
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        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
        <warrior_of_the_sword@...> wrote:
        >
        > So what is the purpose for those who do not partake?
        >
        > Why do they need to be there?

        To get counted in the attendance.



        >
        >
        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, donn reese
        > <tlkreese@> wrote:
        > >
        > > It has as an historical model the special meals eaten
        > > only by the Levite priests in Israel. The showbread or
        > > bread of presence was prepared and eaten within this
        > > one tribe- Exodus 25:30; Leviticus 24:4-9
        > >
        > > The other model is from Reformer John Calvin and his
        > > teaching on the 'Election of the Elect' which
        > > prescribed a limited participation in the Communion.
        > > If you are familiar with Presbyterianism, they had a
        > > system of issuing Tokens to the congregants for
        > > Communion only after each member was visited by an
        > > elder to see if their life was in order and they were
        > > living by christian standards, then they could
        > > partake.
        > >
        > > Within the Wt. Society teaching on Memorial
        > > participation is the thought that Jesus at the last
        > > Passover was speaking selectively to those who would
        > > act in a special Priestly capacity. Like the ancient
        > > Levite Priests who alone entered the Holy Chamber of
        > > the Temple and with a hysop cluster splattered the
        > > blood of the Atonement bull on the Israelites, the
        > > thought is that the 144,000 serve similarly for all
        > > believers. Levites had a special Covenant with YHWH
        > > distinct from the the National Covenant- Ex.40; Ex.19.
        > >
        > > There are of course other views on the Last Passover
        > > and that Christ was drawing from the ancient Passover
        > > in which all people who worshipped YHWH participated.
        > > This included the 12 Tribes, Levites and Foreigners
        > > who converted.
        > >
        > > Donn
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- Darrell <dldavis007@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > I never have understood how JW's can rationalize
        > > > their actions in
        > > > what is probably the most important Christian
        > > > ritual.
        > > >
        > > > It's my understanding, that religous rituals usually
        > > > involve
        > > > participation. In order to participate in this
        > > > ritual, you must
        > > > actually participate, in other words, you must eat
        > > > and drink as
        > > > instructed in the Bible. Anything short of this is
        > > > a hollow
        > > > representation of the ritual, if not an outright
        > > > rejection of
        > > > Christianity.
        > > >
        > > > It seems that JW's claim to be Christians, but then
        > > > they
        > > > purposefully refuse to follow through with
        > > > Christianity's most
        > > > important ritual. Quite a strange way to act if you
        > > > ask me.
        > > >
        > > > Darrell
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
        > > > "Steve Klemetti"
        > > > <sklemetti@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > It is about remembering Jesus' body and blood by
        > > > the symbols, not
        > > > > eating them.
        > > > >
        > > > > You miss the point.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
        > > > "Darrell"
        > > > > <dldavis007@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Even better, they could just pretend that there
        > > > is bread and
        > > > wine.
        > > > > > Hardly anyone partakes anyway.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In
        > > > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, alanna
        > > > garth
        > > > > > <pokealanna@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I was wondering if the WT has ever considered
        > > > the
        > > > > > > following as a cost-cutting method- each year
        > > > for the
        > > > > > > Memorial (since so few partakers and many
        > > > halls have
        > > > > > > not even 1 partaker....how about if instead of
        > > > the
        > > > > > > cong purchases wine and Matza instead they
        > > > have those
        > > > > > > who want to partake bring their own emblems?
        > > > This
        > > > > > > would save the congs worldwide a few bucks for
        > > > sure.
        > > > > > > Hey, is this New Light that I just thought of?
        > > > Oh
        > > > > > > my!!
        > > > > > > Any thoughts on this New Light?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > __________________________________________________
        > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
        > > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
        > > > protection
        > > > around
        > > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > ______________________________________________________________________
        > ______________Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in
        > your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
        > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
        > >
        >
      • alanna garth
        numbers hmm ok ... === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 7, 2007
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          numbers hmm ok
          --- Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...> wrote:

          > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
          > "Jim"
          > <warrior_of_the_sword@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > So what is the purpose for those who do not
          > partake?
          > >
          > > Why do they need to be there?
          >
          > To get counted in the attendance.
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
          > donn reese
          > > <tlkreese@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > It has as an historical model the special meals
          > eaten
          > > > only by the Levite priests in Israel. The
          > showbread or
          > > > bread of presence was prepared and eaten within
          > this
          > > > one tribe- Exodus 25:30; Leviticus 24:4-9
          > > >
          > > > The other model is from Reformer John Calvin and
          > his
          > > > teaching on the 'Election of the Elect' which
          > > > prescribed a limited participation in the
          > Communion.
          > > > If you are familiar with Presbyterianism, they
          > had a
          > > > system of issuing Tokens to the congregants for
          > > > Communion only after each member was visited by
          > an
          > > > elder to see if their life was in order and they
          > were
          > > > living by christian standards, then they could
          > > > partake.
          > > >
          > > > Within the Wt. Society teaching on Memorial
          > > > participation is the thought that Jesus at the
          > last
          > > > Passover was speaking selectively to those who
          > would
          > > > act in a special Priestly capacity. Like the
          > ancient
          > > > Levite Priests who alone entered the Holy
          > Chamber of
          > > > the Temple and with a hysop cluster splattered
          > the
          > > > blood of the Atonement bull on the Israelites,
          > the
          > > > thought is that the 144,000 serve similarly for
          > all
          > > > believers. Levites had a special Covenant with
          > YHWH
          > > > distinct from the the National Covenant- Ex.40;
          > Ex.19.
          > > >
          > > > There are of course other views on the Last
          > Passover
          > > > and that Christ was drawing from the ancient
          > Passover
          > > > in which all people who worshipped YHWH
          > participated.
          > > > This included the 12 Tribes, Levites and
          > Foreigners
          > > > who converted.
          > > >
          > > > Donn
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- Darrell <dldavis007@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > I never have understood how JW's can
          > rationalize
          > > > > their actions in
          > > > > what is probably the most important Christian
          > > > > ritual.
          > > > >
          > > > > It's my understanding, that religous rituals
          > usually
          > > > > involve
          > > > > participation. In order to participate in
          > this
          > > > > ritual, you must
          > > > > actually participate, in other words, you must
          > eat
          > > > > and drink as
          > > > > instructed in the Bible. Anything short of
          > this is
          > > > > a hollow
          > > > > representation of the ritual, if not an
          > outright
          > > > > rejection of
          > > > > Christianity.
          > > > >
          > > > > It seems that JW's claim to be Christians, but
          > then
          > > > > they
          > > > > purposefully refuse to follow through with
          > > > > Christianity's most
          > > > > important ritual. Quite a strange way to act
          > if you
          > > > > ask me.
          > > > >
          > > > > Darrell
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In
          > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > > "Steve Klemetti"
          > > > > <sklemetti@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It is about remembering Jesus' body and
          > blood by
          > > > > the symbols, not
          > > > > > eating them.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You miss the point.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In
          > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > > "Darrell"
          > > > > > <dldavis007@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Even better, they could just pretend that
          > there
          > > > > is bread and
          > > > > wine.
          > > > > > > Hardly anyone partakes anyway.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In
          > > > > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com,
          > alanna
          > > > > garth
          > > > > > > <pokealanna@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I was wondering if the WT has ever
          > considered
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > following as a cost-cutting method-
          > each year
          > > > > for the
          > > > > > > > Memorial (since so few partakers and
          > many
          > > > > halls have
          > > > > > > > not even 1 partaker....how about if
          > instead of
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > cong purchases wine and Matza instead
          > they
          > > > > have those
          > > > > > > > who want to partake bring their own
          > emblems?
          > > > > This
          > > > > > > > would save the congs worldwide a few
          > bucks for
          > > > > sure.
          > > > > > > > Hey, is this New Light that I just
          > thought of?
          > > > > Oh
          > > > > > > > my!!
          > > > > > > > Any thoughts on this New Light?
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > __________________________________________________
          > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best
          > spam
          > > > > protection
          > > > > around
          > > > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          > > ______________Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go
          > puts the Internet in
          > > your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
          > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          === message truncated ===




          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • Jim
          I watched Knocking when it was on my local PBS station and finally got the DVD through my local library and will be watching it tonight. Those who watched it
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 25, 2008
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            I watched Knocking when it was on my local PBS station and finally got
            the DVD through my local library and will be watching it tonight.
            Those who watched it and remember it, any chance of discussing?


            Jim
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