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Re: WILL THE REAL JESUS PLEASE STAND UP!

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  • powerdog68
    Why do these folks seem to think we will be intimidated when they drag out these worn out and tired arguments that have been refuted years ago?
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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      Why do these folks seem to think we will be intimidated when they drag
      out these worn out and tired arguments that have been refuted years ago?



      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
      <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
      >
      > This is why Edgar Goodspeed and James Moffatt in their two respective
      > translations translate John 1:1c as "the Word was divine". This
      > expresses what Paul discusses in Hebrews 1:1-4 and John as well
      > discusses more fully in the remainder of the Prologue of chapter 1.
      >
      > CHARAKTER
      > the impress or essence of his Father
      >
      > Donn
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
      > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Here is a little bit of grammar that i also posted in the other
      > > group that i forgot to post before this one.
      > >
      > > The following is written by a Native to greece called Constantine D.
      > > Lenis regarding John 1:1 and the greek text.
      > >
      > > In the greek language all the nouns have a gender; they appear
      > > either as masculine, feminine or neuter. eg. "the word" is
      > > masculine, "the door" is feminine and "the water" is neuter.
      > > In the Greek, the article "the" also has different genders in order
      > > to co-ordinate with the gender of the noun to which it refers. The
      > > article "the" appears in its three genders as O, H , TO. O for
      > > masculine; H for feminine; and TO for neuter.
      > > The form of the article "the" also changes depending on whether the
      > > noun to which it refers is found in a singular or plural form, and
      > > whether it is in the nominative, genitive, dative , accusative, or
      > > the vocative case. In a sentence, we may have the subject, the
      > > linking verb, and a subjective complement or predicate. The subject
      > > is a word or a group of wrods about which something is said, while
      > > the predicate makes a statement about the subject.
      > > When one constructs a sentence in English or Greek, one usually
      > > places the subject before the linking verb while the predicate is
      > > placed after it. In greek the predicate may appear in the beginning,
      > > in the middle or at the end of a sentence. Usually the predicate
      > > appears after the linking verb, the predicate noun takes the
      > > article, and when it appears before the linking verb it does not.
      > > The reason for this is so that the predicate will not be confused
      > > with the subject.
      > > The above rule was explained by E. C. Colwell and was published in
      > > the Journal of biblical literature - he wrote a definite predicate
      > > nominative has the article when it follows the verb it does not have
      > > the article when it precedes the verb. -
      > > Toward the ends of his essay he concluded: "the following rules may
      > > be tentatively formulated to describe the use of the article with
      > > the definite predicate nouns in sentences which the verb occurs. (1)
      > > Definite predicate nouns here regularly take the article (2) The
      > > exceptions are for the most part due to a change in word order: (a)
      > > Definite predicate nouns which follow the verb (this is usually the
      > > order) usually take the article (b) Definite predicate nouns which
      > > precede the verb usually lack the article (c) Proper names regularly
      > > lack the article in the predicate. (d) Predicate nominatives in
      > > relative clauses regularly follow the verb whether or not they have
      > > the article.
      > > (instead of writing the whole article i'm just gonna skip ahead to a
      > > few other parts if you want the rest of it i can post it but for
      > > time purposes i won't right now )
      > > In the third clause in john 1:1 we see that the subject is ( the
      > > word), the linkin gverb is HN(was) . the predicate is the noun
      > > (God). What we notice here is that the predicate noun God is placed
      > > before the linking verb (was) and therefore does not retain the
      > > article.
      > > If john had wanted to state the word was "a god" another god as the
      > > witnesses teach, he would have written clause c as follows. forgive
      > > me if the third word here is not exactly as it is in the greek
      > > because he wrote proper greek in the book but it looks like how i
      > > wrote it
      > > Kai theos TIE HN O LOGOS
      > > and God a was the word
      > > but this is not the case. John did not write it that way. Instead he
      > > wrote
      > > Theos HN o Logos
      > > so the above must be translated into english as "the word was God"
      > > This does not mean that the Word was "the God" as in "The Father".
      > > Clause c states one thing only --- That the Word, the prehuman
      > > Jesus, was God by nature. To put it another way, it means that the
      > > essence of the "WORD" is exactly the same as the Father's. The
      > > absence of the article "the" from before a predicate noun *whether
      > > that noun is qualititative, adjectival, definite or indefinite" does
      > > not change or weaken the basic meaning of that noun.----end of quote
      > > constantine D. Lenis.
      > >
      > > please go into more indepth of what you are refering to please.
      > >
      > > Patricia
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
      > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I agree with all the scriptures cited. They are the truth and
      > > > revelation of who the Logos is and was in the creative process,
      > > the
      > > > One through whom YHWH brought all things into existence, the One
      > > > through whom was channeled the holy spirit involved in creation.
      > > >
      > > > The conclusions-by whomever wrote this essay-could use some
      > > refining.
      > > > Areas of grammar-history-cultural useage all need to be addressed.
      > > >
      > > > A believer in Christ the Son of YHWH
      > > >
      > > > Donn
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
      > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > ---It is asked Well if Jesus was God why did Jesus not reveal
      > it
      > > so?
      > > > > Why did Jesus not admit who he was and not leave people
      > > wondering. I
      > > > > think the following verses explains it---
      > > > >
      > > > > Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them
      > > > > that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till
      > the
      > > Son
      > > > > of man were risen from the dead.
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell
      > no
      > > man
      > > > > that he was Jesus the Christ.
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
      > > > > disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many
      > > > > things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be
      > > killed,
      > > > > and be raised again the third day.
      > > > >
      > > > > --And then the following verse completely shows why it was not
      > > > > revealed:--
      > > > >
      > > > > 1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had
      > > they
      > > > > known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
      > > > >
      > > > > --Some things were to be kept secret because had they known his
      > > true
      > > > > identity as Lord of Glory, the jews would not have crucified
      > > their
      > > > > Lord. So some things were not revealed plainly even though at
      > > times
      > > > > the jews picked up on it but because the other things had not
      > > been
      > > > > revealed to them they believed him not because Jesus didn't
      > come
      > > to
      > > > > openly declare who he was, he came to die so his glory was
      > veiled
      > > > > and the truth was hidden and was not completely revealed till
      > > after
      > > > > his resurrection which even Thomas's words declared it----
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my
      > > God.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---The God of me and the Lord of Me, exclamation? expression?
      > > false
      > > > > report? Either way Jesus would have corrected him he did say it
      > > to
      > > > > Jesus, when i say a expression i don't usually use it as a
      > answer
      > > > > directed at a person but a more like WOW then i go are you
      > sure?
      > > He
      > > > > didn't just say one of these he said both of them TO Jesus and
      > > Jesus
      > > > > did not say no.
      > > > > Even the apostles worshipped Jesus:---
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus
      > > met
      > > > > them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet,
      > > and
      > > > > worshipped him.
      > > > >
      > > > > ----not just bowing in reverence "held him by the feet" but they
      > > > > went further and worshipped him. Other people were prostrated
      > > before
      > > > > bow the head and prostrate oneself but that in itself is not
      > the
      > > act
      > > > > of worship.
      > > > > But is this enough to convince christians he was God? No so why
      > > do
      > > > > Christians believe Jesus is God? It comes with being familiar
      > > with
      > > > > scriptures
      > > > > It goes back to the prophecies:---
      > > > >
      > > > > Isaiah 9:6 to start:
      > > > > For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the
      > > > > government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be
      > called
      > > > > Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of
      > > > > Peace.
      > > > >
      > > > > ----So you can see here some of what Jesus will be called. You
      > > > > answer yes it says Mighty God but not almighty God. The
      > following
      > > > > verses call God Mighty God----
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob,
      > > > > unto the MIGHTY GOD.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and
      > > > > recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their
      > > > > children after them: the Great, the MIGHTY GOD, the LORD of
      > > hosts,
      > > > > [is] his name,
      > > > >
      > > > > Hab 1:12 [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine
      > > Holy
      > > > > One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for
      > > judgment;
      > > > > and, O MIGHTY GOD, thou hast established them for correction.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---As you can see Jehovah God is the Mighty God, now lets take
      > > this
      > > > > one step further:---
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant
      > > whom
      > > > > I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand
      > > that
      > > > > I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall
      > > there be
      > > > > after me.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed,
      > > when
      > > > > [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] my
      > > > > witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his
      > redeemer
      > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and
      > > BESIDE
      > > > > ME THERE IS NO GOD.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that CREATED THE HEAVENS; GOD
      > > > > HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established
      > > it,
      > > > > he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am]
      > > the
      > > > > LORD; and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the
      > > earth:
      > > > > for I [am] God, and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and
      > > > > [there is] none else; [I am] God, and THERE IS NONE LIKE ME,
      > > > >
      > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
      > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE
      > ME.
      > > > >
      > > > > --one God, one Saviour, one God to look unto to be saved, no God
      > > > > formed neither will there be any after him. the LORD is the
      > > Mighty
      > > > > God so would you rightly be able to call anyone else truly a
      > > Mighty
      > > > > God? So no i don't believe anyone else can be rightly called
      > > Mighty
      > > > > God without there being another like God.---
      > > > >
      > > > > Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
      > raise
      > > > > unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
      > > prosper,
      > > > > and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall
      > dwell
      > > > > safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE
      > > LORD
      > > > > OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring
      > > forth
      > > > > a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
      > > > > interpreted is, God with us.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---He shall be a King, called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS and God
      > > > > with us
      > > > > which brings to light the following verse:---
      > > > >
      > > > > 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
      > > godliness:
      > > > > God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of
      > > > > angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
      > > > > received up into glory.
      > > > >
      > > > > --Lets also keep in mind the creation:--
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
      > > > > thing made that was made.
      > > > >
      > > > > (NWT)john 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and
      > > apart
      > > > > from him not even one thing came into existence.
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in
      > heaven,
      > > and
      > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be]
      > > thrones,
      > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
      > > created
      > > > > by him, and for him:
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things
      > > consist.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Here it shows without Jesus not one thing was made that "WAS
      > > > > MADE". Jesus made all things and without him was not anything
      > > made
      > > > > that was made.
      > > > >
      > > > > Reminds me of Genesis 1:1 ---
      > > > >
      > > > > Gen 1:1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
      > and
      > > > > the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---This is also said of Christ when the Father was talking to
      > the
      > > > > Son:---
      > > > >
      > > > > Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the
      > > foundation
      > > > > of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
      > > > > what does the us mean? certainly not angels because angels were
      > > part
      > > > > of the creation not the creator.
      > > > >
      > > > > Gen 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our image, after our
      > > > > likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
      > > and
      > > > > over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the
      > > > > earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
      > > earth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of
      > > > > every creature:
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in
      > heaven,
      > > and
      > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be]
      > > thrones,
      > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
      > > created
      > > > > by him, and for him:
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things
      > > consist.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---You might say see it says he's the first born that means he
      > > was
      > > > > the first created, no it means that he's the source author of
      > > > > creation next verse says for by him were all things created, it
      > > was
      > > > > created by him and for him. This verse states why he is refered
      > > to
      > > > > as firstborn "he has preeminence". One of the many reasons why
      > it
      > > > > doesn't mean first created is because he created ALL things, all
      > > > > things were made by him without him was not anything made that
      > > was
      > > > > made. It doesn't say he's the firstborn because God created him
      > > > > first it says he's first born for by him were ALL THINGS
      > created.
      > > > > SO, so far we have seen that it wasn't truly revealed who he was
      > > > > because he never would have died had they known he was Lord of
      > > > > Glory. We talked about thomas's response to Jesus. We talked a
      > > > > little about worship of Jesus Christ more then mere reverence.
      > We
      > > > > talked about how both God and Jesus are refered to as The
      > Mighty
      > > God
      > > > > and have read some of the verses that state there is none like
      > > God,
      > > > > that God is the Mighty God, I wrote verses showing there is
      > only
      > > one
      > > > > God, one Saviour there is none other no other Gods were
      > created,
      > > it
      > > > > says God alone laid the foundation of the earth, but we also see
      > > > > Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and that he is the mighty
      > > > > God. We also see that NOTHING that was made was made without
      > > Jesus,
      > > > > that must include him. Why else do Christians believe Jesus is
      > > God?
      > > > >
      > > > > Is it just because John 1:1 says:---
      > > > >
      > > > > In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the
      > > Word
      > > > > was God?
      > > > >
      > > > > ---partially but not the full reason why Christians believe
      > > Jesus is
      > > > > God. Lets look at this text a bit further even look into the jw
      > > > > translation--
      > > > >
      > > > > (NWT)John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was
      > > with
      > > > > God, and the Word was a god
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Does the letter "a" rightly belong? for what reason was no
      > > > > article written before the final theos? What was John trying to
      > > > > portray here. Did he leave the article out to show that Jesus
      > > wasn't
      > > > > Almighty God?
      > > > > For John to have written the article with the final word Theos
      > > would
      > > > > be like saying that Jesus is God the Father because it would
      > > teach
      > > > > that there is no one else apart from the WORD in the godhead.
      > > John
      > > > > shows us here what the nature of the word was "and the word was
      > > > God -
      > > > > that means what it says. From the beginning the word did not
      > have
      > > > > the nature of angels nor was he man before he came to earth-----
      > -
      > > > >
      > > > > Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels;
      > > but
      > > > > he took on [him] the seed of Abraham
      > > > >
      > > > > ---If he was neither man or nor angel in his pre-existance what
      > > was
      > > > > he?
      > > > >
      > > > > Please before you comment on John 1:1 please refer to post 5701.
      > > > >
      > > > > Can you really believe that Jesus is a god a lesser god being
      > > then
      > > > > the Mighty God Jehovah? or that he can be a mighty God like
      > > Jehovah?
      > > > > Even after scriptures teach there is only one God there is no
      > > other
      > > > > god beside him. So either we have two mighty God's or Jesus is
      > > > > within the Godhead
      > > > > But is this all christians go on? But even so far evidence is
      > in
      > > our
      > > > > favour. But is there further reason why we believe it?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall
      > call
      > > on
      > > > > the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and
      > in
      > > > > Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in
      > the
      > > > > remnant whom the LORD shall call.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
      > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside
      > > me.
      > > > > That we shall know no god but jehovah, that there is no saviour
      > > > > beside him.
      > > > >
      > > > > Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
      > > none
      > > > > other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
      > > saved.
      > > > >
      > > > > Phl 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we
      > > look
      > > > > for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
      > > > >
      > > > > Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
      > > shall
      > > > > be saved.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---who does romans 10:13 refer to the answer is in a few verses
      > > > > before that----
      > > > >
      > > > > Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord
      > > Jesus,
      > > > > and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
      > > the
      > > > > dead, thou shalt be saved.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---so far we have Jesus being called creator, Saviour, God even
      > > > > after the bible reveals there is no other God who is creator
      > > saviour
      > > > > or God.
      > > > > Whose name do we gather in?----
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my
      > > name,
      > > > > there am I in the midst of them.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---This is the name we call upon and whose name we gather in and
      > > > > whose name we bow to.
      > > > > This verse even implies omnipresent which is another attribute
      > of
      > > > > God, or do you not believe God is omnipresent?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I
      > > > > flee from thy presence?
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I
      > > make my
      > > > > bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
      > > > >
      > > > > --- So here we see that Jesus is wherever two or three are
      > > gathered.
      > > > > If a prayer service is going on in abbotsford british columbia
      > > he is
      > > > > here, if a prayer service is going on in japan he is there.
      > > Jesus is
      > > > > with me now as he is with every believer. ----
      > > > >
      > > > > Jeremiah 23:23-24 [Am] I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not
      > a
      > > > > God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I
      > shall
      > > not
      > > > > see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith
      > > the
      > > > > Lord.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1 cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and
      > > the
      > > > > Spirit of God dwells in you?
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Bible shows us God knows our hearts, and even Jesus knows our
      > > > > hearts. God knows all things, and is everywhere, omniscient is
      > > > > another attribute of God. But are there other names or titles
      > > > > refered to both that strength this position?
      > > > >
      > > > > Pantokrator in greek the literal meaning is He who has the
      > power
      > > to
      > > > > hold all things, omnipotence means: the state or quality of
      > being
      > > > > omnipotent, having absolute authority, to be able to do all
      > > things
      > > > > Jesus upholds all things and only God can uphold all things by
      > > his
      > > > > power. -----
      > > > >
      > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things
      > > > > consist.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily,
      > verily,
      > > I
      > > > > say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he
      > > seeth
      > > > > the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also
      > doeth
      > > the
      > > > > Son likewise.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express
      > > > > image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his
      > > > > power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the
      > > right
      > > > > hand of the Majesty on high;
      > > > >
      > > > > ----SO we have seen that Jesus is omniscient and omnipresent,
      > > that
      > > > > Jesus can do whatever he sees the father doing and he holds the
      > > > > world up by his power he created all things.----
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the
      > > secrets
      > > > > of the heart.
      > > > >
      > > > > --God knoweth the heart---
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them,
      > > Every
      > > > > kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and
      > > every
      > > > > city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Does it even go further then this?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I have everything I need.
      > > > > Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am
      > > known
      > > > > of mine.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Lets also keep in mind---
      > > > >
      > > > > Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
      > > [there
      > > > > is] none good but one, [that is], God.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---So here we have Jesus being called the Shepherd and said he
      > > was
      > > > > good. Yet the LORD is our shepherd and only God is Good. Good
      > > what
      > > > > exactly does it mean? Did not Jesus have to be without sin to
      > be
      > > sin
      > > > > for us? For his sacrifice to be worth anything Jesus had to be
      > > > > perfect, perfect meaning good. Had Jesus sinned he would of
      > > fallen
      > > > > from perfection his sacrifice would be worthless. And since
      > > there is
      > > > > only one Good and that is God one who is perfect it would stand
      > > to
      > > > > reason that Jesus is God since no one but him would of been
      > > worthy
      > > > > enough to die for us.
      > > > >
      > > > > Whose the Light?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 27:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] The LORD [is] my light and my
      > > > > salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my
      > > life;
      > > > > of whom shall I be afraid?
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the
      > > light of
      > > > > the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but
      > > > > shall have the light of life.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and
      > > > > declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness
      > at
      > > > > all.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---So here we have Jesus refered to as something that God is.
      > > > >
      > > > > Whose the first and last?--
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I
      > [am]
      > > he;
      > > > > I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his
      > redeemer
      > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and
      > > beside
      > > > > me [there is] no God
      > > > >
      > > > > Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he
      > > laid
      > > > > his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the
      > first
      > > and
      > > > > the last:
      > > > >
      > > > > ---SO here again we have Jesus refered to as something that God
      > > is.
      > > > > No the first and last for Jesus had not thing to do with God
      > > raising
      > > > > him then everyone else gets raised through jesus. Jesus himself
      > > said
      > > > > i will raise it up on the third day.
      > > > >
      > > > > So lets recap -Jesus is or has been or has been called - Lord of
      > > > > Glory, Lord, God, worshipped, Mighty God, First and last, God
      > > with
      > > > > us, LORD our righteousness ,source of creation, his name is
      > > called
      > > > > upon for salvation, Saviour, omnipresent, omniscient, Has All
      > > > > authority, Shepherd, Good, Light.
      > > > >
      > > > > Anything else that makes a believer believe Jesus is God?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of
      > > lords,
      > > > > a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not
      > > persons,
      > > > > nor taketh reward:
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy
      > > > > [endureth] for ever.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall
      > > > > overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and
      > > they
      > > > > that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name
      > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Yet another one Lord of lords interchanged.---
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
      > > > > judgment unto the Son:
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his
      > > > > throne for judgment.
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall
      > > > > minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---The Son is the judge but the LORD is the judge another one
      > > > > interchanged.
      > > > >
      > > > > THE FORGIVER OF SINS---
      > > > >
      > > > > Isaiah 43:16-25
      > > > >
      > > > > Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven
      > > > >
      > > > > Psa 10:16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the heathen are
      > > > > perished out of his land.
      > > > > Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye
      > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
      > > > > Psa 24:8 Who [is] this King of glory? The LORD strong and
      > mighty,
      > > > > the LORD mighty in battle.
      > > > > Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift [them] up, ye
      > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
      > > > > Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he [is]
      > > the
      > > > > King of glory. Selah.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name
      > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Jesus is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords and He's Lord of
      > > glory.
      > > > > Do you have two Kings two Lords?
      > > > > So is it blind faith that leads believers to believe Jesus is
      > > God?
      > > > > Is there absolutely no proof in this Jesus is God teaching? Am i
      > > > > finished or is there more?
      > > > > God the Father has never been seen but God has been seen so
      > > either
      > > > > we have a contradiction or someone other then God the Father
      > > > > revealed himself as God----
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy,
      > > [is]
      > > > > the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory.
      > > > >
      > > > > Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I
      > > [am] a
      > > > > man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of
      > > unclean
      > > > > lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die,
      > > > > because we have seen God.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which
      > is
      > > of
      > > > > God, he hath seen the Father
      > > > >
      > > > > Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The
      > > God of
      > > > > glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in
      > > Mesopotamia,
      > > > > before he dwelt in Charran,
      > > > >
      > > > > ---SO here we see that the King, LORD of hosts God has been
      > seen,
      > > > > but this verse says no man hath seen the Father, so who which
      > > King
      > > > > has been seen?---
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw
      > > > > [it], and was glad.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
      > > > > Before Abraham was, I am.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Jesus is the King, Lord of Glory it was he who appeared to
      > the
      > > > > men of OLD.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead and GOd said he
      > > rose
      > > > > Christ up. I will raise it up. Tell no man that i'm the Christ
      > > tell
      > > > > no man what has happened till after i arise for if they know
      > any
      > > of
      > > > > this they won't crucify the Lord of Glory. That is why Jesus
      > > didn't
      > > > > outright prove who he was.
      > > > > The biggest of them all is his phrase Son of God. You are the
      > > nature
      > > > > of the one who has begotten you. You are equal to the one who
      > has
      > > > > begotten you. Jesus was the visible of the invisible, he was God
      > > > > manifest in the flesh according to the scriptures. SO do
      > > christians
      > > > > belief rest solely on isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8.
      > While
      > > > > they show him to be called God by three different witnesses and
      > a
      > > > > three fold cord is not to quickly broken this is not the
      > complete
      > > > > reason. This same Jesus will so come in like manor as you have
      > > seen
      > > > > him go he will return first in the clouds then visibly and then
      > > his
      > > > > foot will once again rest on this world.----
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
      > > sins:
      > > > > for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
      > > > >
      > > > > Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
      > > > > inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
      > > supplications:
      > > > > and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they
      > > shall
      > > > > mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall
      > > be in
      > > > > bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his]
      > > > > firstborn.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---How could anyone but God be good enough to be a sacrifice for
      > > > > your sin? Can anyone other then God be perfect enough?
      > > > > Does Bible show michael to have any attributes of God? Does the
      > > > > Bible call Jesus an Angel? or Jesus is Michael? Is Michael
      > called
      > > > > Lord? Is michael called King? If Jesus is michael why is there
      > no
      > > > > reference to this as there is to Jesus being God? We've already
      > > > > talked about why Jesus never publically declared to be Lord of
      > > Glory
      > > > > because he had to die first then it could be revealed.
      > > > >
      > > > > Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the
      > > world
      > > > > to come, whereof we speak.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Here it says the world to come of which Jesus is King of is
      > > not
      > > > > subject to an angel, Also it says he took not on him the nature
      > > of
      > > > > angels but of man, so what nature was he? if he wasn't man or
      > > angel
      > > > > before his coming what was he? Jude mentions the name Jesus and
      > > > > Michael in his one chapter, but even there he makes no
      > > connection as
      > > > > one being the other. He proved other wise by writing michael
      > > saying
      > > > > the Lord rebuke you and Jesus is the Lord of Glory. Even in
      > > > > revelations it doesn't connect the one being the other. 1 Thess
      > > > > doesn't even say Jesus is michael it says he will come with the
      > > arch
      > > > > angels voice----
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
      > > Father
      > > > > with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
      > to
      > > his
      > > > > works.
      > > > >
      > > > > Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all
      > > the
      > > > > holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his
      > > > glory:
      > > > >
      > > > > 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord
      > > > > Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
      > > > >
      > > > > ---Is it so hard to see this verse that the archangel Michael ,
      > > > > Gabriel and all the others are there with him to? and the other
      > > > > Chief princes?
      > > > > "All things" were created by him and for him without him was not
      > > > > anything made that was made, and if michael was made then it
      > > > > includes him to. We serve Jesus we praise his name we pray in
      > his
      > > > > name we bow the knee to his name he is our Saviour Master and
      > > Lord.
      > > > > Not one verse can be produced that says he's michael, nor is
      > > there
      > > > > any proof that michael holds any attributes of God. Michael is
      > > > > brought up by three witnesses and not one witness calls him
      > > jesus.
      > > > > Not one witness calls Jesus an angel. I call upon the name of
      > > Jesus,
      > > > > in the name of Jesus we speak in, its Jesus who is Lord, Rom
      > > 10:13
      > > > > For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
      > > saved.
      > > > > I seek you to show one verse that says Jesus is Michael, or one
      > > > > verse that says Jesus said i am not God. It is because of this
      > > that
      > > > > the following verse says----
      > > > >
      > > > > 1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man
      > > speaking by
      > > > > the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can
      > > say
      > > > > that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
      > > > >
      > > > > ----This is something that through the Holy Scriptures the Holy
      > > > > Spirit shows you the connections, the truth upon which the
      > words,
      > > > > Lord of Glory truly mean. I implore you to search like the
      > > bereans--
      > > > -
      > > > >
      > > > > Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in
      > > that
      > > > > they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched
      > > the
      > > > > scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
      > > > >
      > > > > Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that
      > called
      > > > > you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
      > > > >
      > > > > Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
      > > > > gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let
      > > him
      > > > > be accursed.
      > > > >
      > > > > ---It is your duty to follow up in scripture anything anyone
      > > says to
      > > > > you. You asked me where does it say Jesus is God. I have given
      > > you
      > > > > three witnesses that speak of Jesus as God and i have given you
      > > more
      > > > > as well, incase you try to explain those verses away you cannot
      > > > > explain away that Jesus is Lord that he is the Lord of Glory
      > upon
      > > > > whom we come to for salvation, that there is none good but God,
      > > > > Jesus if he's not God could not be good nor could he have been a
      > > > > sacrifice for us. Can you produce three biblical witnesses that
      > > > > noticably interchange Jesus being michael. Can you truly produce
      > > > > this type of evidence that you have asked of me? Where in
      > > scriptures
      > > > > does it say "Jesus is God". I would assume that Michael would of
      > > > > been mentioned more in the old testament had that been Jesus
      > pre-
      > > > > human existance being how important Jesus is to mankind. Are you
      > > > > going to really teach that a archangel a created being is the
      > > Lord
      > > > > of Glory? The Lord of Glory who created ALL things and without
      > > him
      > > > > was not anything made that was made? Would your evidence hold
      > up
      > > in
      > > > > the court of Law? Bring your witnesses forward who say Jesus is
      > > > > Michael! Can you do it? If this was the case why did John say
      > > word
      > > > > was God and not word was archangelos? Bible states he is King
      > of
      > > his
      > > > > kingdom there shall be no end.
      > > > >
      > > > > Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of
      > the
      > > > > world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are
      > > > > made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
      > > without
      > > > > excuse:
      > > > >
      > > > > There is one Lord of Glory , One God, One Saviour, One Master,
      > > One
      > > > > Creator, One Light, One Life, One way, ONE HOPE! Michael is
      > never
      > > > > called Lord he is never called Life, or the way, or Master or
      > > God or
      > > > > creator or Lord of Lords, King of Kings. So will you now review
      > > your
      > > > > evidence? Do you have three witnesses that say Jesus is michael?
      > > > > I await your response to "will the real Jesus please stand up".
      > > > >
      > > > > Patricia
    • powerdog68
      Argumentum ex silentio, Argument from silence. Where does it say God is a triune
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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        <<<"Also please comment regarding where does it say Jesus is Michael!">>>

        Argumentum ex silentio, Argument from silence.

        Where does it say God is a triune deity?

        --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
        <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Please read the other post again WILL the real Jesus please stand up
        > and comment! Also please comment regarding where does it say Jesus
        > is Michael!
        >
        > I completely agree that John knew who the messiah was as well as all
        > the apostles, since they did teach the early church that Jesus was
        > God.Yes Jesus is the Son of God in the fullest sense, He is the
        > nature of God you are the nature of your Father. But i still wait a
        > reply on your part. John remember didn't say Archangelos en ho logos.
        >
        > Patricia
        >
        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
        > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > John knew who his Messiah was and the full expression by the
        > Apostle
        > > as well as Paul, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew and Mark all testify
        > to
        > > the same belief: Jesus was the Son of YHWH in the fullest and
        > > complete sense.
        > >
        > > John to Peter in the boat "It is the Lord"; John 21:7
        > >
        > > In Christ
        > >
        > > Donn
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
        > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > what do you think about the other post?....and still it goes
        > > without
        > > > saying what woulda happened if John had added the article in
        > front
        > > > of theos?
        > > >
        > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
        > > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > This is why Edgar Goodspeed and James Moffatt in their two
        > > > respective
        > > > > translations translate John 1:1c as "the Word was divine".
        > This
        > > > > expresses what Paul discusses in Hebrews 1:1-4 and John as
        > well
        > > > > discusses more fully in the remainder of the Prologue of
        > chapter
        > > 1.
        > > > >
        > > > > CHARAKTER
        > > > > the impress or essence of his Father
        > > > >
        > > > > Donn
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
        > > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Here is a little bit of grammar that i also posted in the
        > other
        > > > > > group that i forgot to post before this one.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The following is written by a Native to greece called
        > > > Constantine D.
        > > > > > Lenis regarding John 1:1 and the greek text.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In the greek language all the nouns have a gender; they
        > appear
        > > > > > either as masculine, feminine or neuter. eg. "the word" is
        > > > > > masculine, "the door" is feminine and "the water" is neuter.
        > > > > > In the Greek, the article "the" also has different genders
        > in
        > > > order
        > > > > > to co-ordinate with the gender of the noun to which it
        > refers.
        > > > The
        > > > > > article "the" appears in its three genders as O, H , TO. O
        > for
        > > > > > masculine; H for feminine; and TO for neuter.
        > > > > > The form of the article "the" also changes depending on
        > whether
        > > > the
        > > > > > noun to which it refers is found in a singular or plural
        > form,
        > > > and
        > > > > > whether it is in the nominative, genitive, dative ,
        > accusative,
        > > > or
        > > > > > the vocative case. In a sentence, we may have the subject,
        > the
        > > > > > linking verb, and a subjective complement or predicate. The
        > > > subject
        > > > > > is a word or a group of wrods about which something is said,
        > > > while
        > > > > > the predicate makes a statement about the subject.
        > > > > > When one constructs a sentence in English or Greek, one
        > usually
        > > > > > places the subject before the linking verb while the
        > predicate
        > > is
        > > > > > placed after it. In greek the predicate may appear in the
        > > > beginning,
        > > > > > in the middle or at the end of a sentence. Usually the
        > predicate
        > > > > > appears after the linking verb, the predicate noun takes the
        > > > > > article, and when it appears before the linking verb it does
        > > not.
        > > > > > The reason for this is so that the predicate will not be
        > > confused
        > > > > > with the subject.
        > > > > > The above rule was explained by E. C. Colwell and was
        > published
        > > > in
        > > > > > the Journal of biblical literature - he wrote a definite
        > > > predicate
        > > > > > nominative has the article when it follows the verb it does
        > not
        > > > have
        > > > > > the article when it precedes the verb. -
        > > > > > Toward the ends of his essay he concluded: "the following
        > rules
        > > > may
        > > > > > be tentatively formulated to describe the use of the article
        > > with
        > > > > > the definite predicate nouns in sentences which the verb
        > > occurs.
        > > > (1)
        > > > > > Definite predicate nouns here regularly take the article (2)
        > The
        > > > > > exceptions are for the most part due to a change in word
        > order:
        > > > (a)
        > > > > > Definite predicate nouns which follow the verb (this is
        > usually
        > > > the
        > > > > > order) usually take the article (b) Definite predicate nouns
        > > > which
        > > > > > precede the verb usually lack the article (c) Proper names
        > > > regularly
        > > > > > lack the article in the predicate. (d) Predicate nominatives
        > in
        > > > > > relative clauses regularly follow the verb whether or not
        > they
        > > > have
        > > > > > the article.
        > > > > > (instead of writing the whole article i'm just gonna skip
        > ahead
        > > > to a
        > > > > > few other parts if you want the rest of it i can post it but
        > for
        > > > > > time purposes i won't right now )
        > > > > > In the third clause in john 1:1 we see that the subject is (
        > the
        > > > > > word), the linkin gverb is HN(was) . the predicate is the
        > noun
        > > > > > (God). What we notice here is that the predicate noun God is
        > > > placed
        > > > > > before the linking verb (was) and therefore does not retain
        > the
        > > > > > article.
        > > > > > If john had wanted to state the word was "a god" another god
        > as
        > > > the
        > > > > > witnesses teach, he would have written clause c as follows.
        > > > forgive
        > > > > > me if the third word here is not exactly as it is in the
        > greek
        > > > > > because he wrote proper greek in the book but it looks like
        > how
        > > i
        > > > > > wrote it
        > > > > > Kai theos TIE HN O LOGOS
        > > > > > and God a was the word
        > > > > > but this is not the case. John did not write it that way.
        > > > Instead he
        > > > > > wrote
        > > > > > Theos HN o Logos
        > > > > > so the above must be translated into english as "the word
        > was
        > > > God"
        > > > > > This does not mean that the Word was "the God" as in "The
        > > > Father".
        > > > > > Clause c states one thing only --- That the Word, the
        > prehuman
        > > > > > Jesus, was God by nature. To put it another way, it means
        > that
        > > > the
        > > > > > essence of the "WORD" is exactly the same as the Father's.
        > The
        > > > > > absence of the article "the" from before a predicate noun
        > > > *whether
        > > > > > that noun is qualititative, adjectival, definite or
        > indefinite"
        > > > does
        > > > > > not change or weaken the basic meaning of that noun.----end
        > of
        > > > quote
        > > > > > constantine D. Lenis.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > please go into more indepth of what you are refering to
        > please.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Patricia
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In
        > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
        > > > > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I agree with all the scriptures cited. They are the truth
        > > and
        > > > > > > revelation of who the Logos is and was in the creative
        > > > process,
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > One through whom YHWH brought all things into existence,
        > the
        > > > One
        > > > > > > through whom was channeled the holy spirit involved in
        > > > creation.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The conclusions-by whomever wrote this essay-could use
        > some
        > > > > > refining.
        > > > > > > Areas of grammar-history-cultural useage all need to be
        > > > addressed.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > A believer in Christ the Son of YHWH
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Donn
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In
        > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
        > > > > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---It is asked Well if Jesus was God why did Jesus not
        > > > reveal
        > > > > it
        > > > > > so?
        > > > > > > > Why did Jesus not admit who he was and not leave people
        > > > > > wondering. I
        > > > > > > > think the following verses explains it---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he
        > charged
        > > > them
        > > > > > > > that they should tell no man what things they had seen,
        > > till
        > > > > the
        > > > > > Son
        > > > > > > > of man were risen from the dead.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should
        > > > tell
        > > > > no
        > > > > > man
        > > > > > > > that he was Jesus the Christ.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto
        > his
        > > > > > > > disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
        > suffer
        > > > many
        > > > > > > > things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and
        > be
        > > > > > killed,
        > > > > > > > and be raised again the third day.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --And then the following verse completely shows why it
        > was
        > > > not
        > > > > > > > revealed:--
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew:
        > for
        > > > had
        > > > > > they
        > > > > > > > known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of
        > glory
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --Some things were to be kept secret because had they
        > known
        > > > his
        > > > > > true
        > > > > > > > identity as Lord of Glory, the jews would not have
        > > crucified
        > > > > > their
        > > > > > > > Lord. So some things were not revealed plainly even
        > though
        > > > at
        > > > > > times
        > > > > > > > the jews picked up on it but because the other things
        > had
        > > > not
        > > > > > been
        > > > > > > > revealed to them they believed him not because Jesus
        > didn't
        > > > > come
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > openly declare who he was, he came to die so his glory
        > was
        > > > > veiled
        > > > > > > > and the truth was hidden and was not completely revealed
        > > > till
        > > > > > after
        > > > > > > > his resurrection which even Thomas's words declared it---
        > -
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord
        > > and
        > > > my
        > > > > > God.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---The God of me and the Lord of Me, exclamation?
        > > > expression?
        > > > > > false
        > > > > > > > report? Either way Jesus would have corrected him he did
        > > say
        > > > it
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > Jesus, when i say a expression i don't usually use it as
        > a
        > > > > answer
        > > > > > > > directed at a person but a more like WOW then i go are
        > you
        > > > > sure?
        > > > > > He
        > > > > > > > didn't just say one of these he said both of them TO
        > Jesus
        > > > and
        > > > > > Jesus
        > > > > > > > did not say no.
        > > > > > > > Even the apostles worshipped Jesus:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold,
        > > > Jesus
        > > > > > met
        > > > > > > > them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by
        > the
        > > > feet,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > worshipped him.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ----not just bowing in reverence "held him by the feet"
        > but
        > > > they
        > > > > > > > went further and worshipped him. Other people were
        > > > prostrated
        > > > > > before
        > > > > > > > bow the head and prostrate oneself but that in itself is
        > > not
        > > > > the
        > > > > > act
        > > > > > > > of worship.
        > > > > > > > But is this enough to convince christians he was God? No
        > so
        > > > why
        > > > > > do
        > > > > > > > Christians believe Jesus is God? It comes with being
        > > > familiar
        > > > > > with
        > > > > > > > scriptures
        > > > > > > > It goes back to the prophecies:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isaiah 9:6 to start:
        > > > > > > > For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and
        > the
        > > > > > > > government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will
        > be
        > > > > called
        > > > > > > > Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,
        > > Prince
        > > > of
        > > > > > > > Peace.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ----So you can see here some of what Jesus will be
        > called.
        > > > You
        > > > > > > > answer yes it says Mighty God but not almighty God. The
        > > > > following
        > > > > > > > verses call God Mighty God----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant
        > of
        > > > Jacob,
        > > > > > > > unto the MIGHTY GOD.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and
        > > > > > > > recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom
        > of
        > > > their
        > > > > > > > children after them: the Great, the MIGHTY GOD, the LORD
        > of
        > > > > > hosts,
        > > > > > > > [is] his name,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hab 1:12 [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God,
        > > > mine
        > > > > > Holy
        > > > > > > > One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them
        > for
        > > > > > judgment;
        > > > > > > > and, O MIGHTY GOD, thou hast established them for
        > > correction.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---As you can see Jehovah God is the Mighty God, now
        > lets
        > > > take
        > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > one step further:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my
        > > > servant
        > > > > > whom
        > > > > > > > I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and
        > > > understand
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither
        > shall
        > > > > > there be
        > > > > > > > after me.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have
        > > > shewed,
        > > > > > when
        > > > > > > > [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye
        > [are]
        > > my
        > > > > > > > witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his
        > > > > redeemer
        > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the
        > last;
        > > > and
        > > > > > BESIDE
        > > > > > > > ME THERE IS NO GOD.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that CREATED THE
        > HEAVENS;
        > > > GOD
        > > > > > > > HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath
        > > > established
        > > > > > it,
        > > > > > > > he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:
        > I
        > > > [am]
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > LORD; and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of
        > > the
        > > > > > earth:
        > > > > > > > for I [am] God, and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am]
        > God,
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > [there is] none else; [I am] God, and THERE IS NONE LIKE
        > ME,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of
        > > Egypt,
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO SAVIOUR
        > > > BESIDE
        > > > > ME.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --one God, one Saviour, one God to look unto to be
        > saved,
        > > no
        > > > God
        > > > > > > > formed neither will there be any after him. the LORD is
        > the
        > > > > > Mighty
        > > > > > > > God so would you rightly be able to call anyone else
        > truly
        > > a
        > > > > > Mighty
        > > > > > > > God? So no i don't believe anyone else can be rightly
        > > called
        > > > > > Mighty
        > > > > > > > God without there being another like God.---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I
        > will
        > > > > raise
        > > > > > > > unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign
        > and
        > > > > > prosper,
        > > > > > > > and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel
        > shall
        > > > > dwell
        > > > > > > > safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be
        > called,
        > > > THE
        > > > > > LORD
        > > > > > > > OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall
        > > > bring
        > > > > > forth
        > > > > > > > a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being
        > > > > > > > interpreted is, God with us.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---He shall be a King, called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS
        > > and
        > > > God
        > > > > > > > with us
        > > > > > > > which brings to light the following verse:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
        > > > > > godliness:
        > > > > > > > God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,
        > > seen
        > > > of
        > > > > > > > angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the
        > > world,
        > > > > > > > received up into glory.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --Lets also keep in mind the creation:--
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was
        > > not
        > > > any
        > > > > > > > thing made that was made.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > (NWT)john 1:3 All things came into existence through
        > him,
        > > > and
        > > > > > apart
        > > > > > > > from him not even one thing came into existence.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in
        > > > > heaven,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they
        > be]
        > > > > > thrones,
        > > > > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things
        > were
        > > > > > created
        > > > > > > > by him, and for him:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
        > things
        > > > > > consist.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Here it shows without Jesus not one thing was made
        > > > that "WAS
        > > > > > > > MADE". Jesus made all things and without him was not
        > > > anything
        > > > > > made
        > > > > > > > that was made.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Reminds me of Genesis 1:1 ---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Gen 1:1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the
        > > > earth.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the
        > > > earth:
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > > the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---This is also said of Christ when the Father was
        > talking
        > > > to
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > Son:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the
        > > > > > foundation
        > > > > > > > of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine
        > hands:
        > > > > > > > what does the us mean? certainly not angels because
        > angels
        > > > were
        > > > > > part
        > > > > > > > of the creation not the creator.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Gen 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our image,
        > > after
        > > > our
        > > > > > > > likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of
        > the
        > > > sea,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
        > all
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon
        > the
        > > > > > earth.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the
        > > > firstborn of
        > > > > > > > every creature:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in
        > > > > heaven,
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they
        > be]
        > > > > > thrones,
        > > > > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things
        > were
        > > > > > created
        > > > > > > > by him, and for him:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
        > things
        > > > > > consist.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---You might say see it says he's the first born that
        > means
        > > > he
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > the first created, no it means that he's the source
        > author
        > > of
        > > > > > > > creation next verse says for by him were all things
        > > created,
        > > > it
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > created by him and for him. This verse states why he is
        > > > refered
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > as firstborn "he has preeminence". One of the many
        > reasons
        > > > why
        > > > > it
        > > > > > > > doesn't mean first created is because he created ALL
        > > things,
        > > > all
        > > > > > > > things were made by him without him was not anything
        > made
        > > > that
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > made. It doesn't say he's the firstborn because God
        > created
        > > > him
        > > > > > > > first it says he's first born for by him were ALL THINGS
        > > > > created.
        > > > > > > > SO, so far we have seen that it wasn't truly revealed
        > who
        > > he
        > > > was
        > > > > > > > because he never would have died had they known he was
        > Lord
        > > > of
        > > > > > > > Glory. We talked about thomas's response to Jesus. We
        > > talked
        > > > a
        > > > > > > > little about worship of Jesus Christ more then mere
        > > > reverence.
        > > > > We
        > > > > > > > talked about how both God and Jesus are refered to as
        > The
        > > > > Mighty
        > > > > > God
        > > > > > > > and have read some of the verses that state there is
        > none
        > > > like
        > > > > > God,
        > > > > > > > that God is the Mighty God, I wrote verses showing there
        > is
        > > > > only
        > > > > > one
        > > > > > > > God, one Saviour there is none other no other Gods were
        > > > > created,
        > > > > > it
        > > > > > > > says God alone laid the foundation of the earth, but we
        > > also
        > > > see
        > > > > > > > Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and that he is
        > the
        > > > mighty
        > > > > > > > God. We also see that NOTHING that was made was made
        > > without
        > > > > > Jesus,
        > > > > > > > that must include him. Why else do Christians believe
        > Jesus
        > > > is
        > > > > > God?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Is it just because John 1:1 says:---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > In the beginning was the word and the word was with God
        > and
        > > > the
        > > > > > Word
        > > > > > > > was God?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---partially but not the full reason why Christians
        > believe
        > > > > > Jesus is
        > > > > > > > God. Lets look at this text a bit further even look into
        > > the
        > > > jw
        > > > > > > > translation--
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > (NWT)John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the
        > Word
        > > > was
        > > > > > with
        > > > > > > > God, and the Word was a god
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Does the letter "a" rightly belong? for what reason
        > was
        > > no
        > > > > > > > article written before the final theos? What was John
        > > trying
        > > > to
        > > > > > > > portray here. Did he leave the article out to show that
        > > > Jesus
        > > > > > wasn't
        > > > > > > > Almighty God?
        > > > > > > > For John to have written the article with the final word
        > > > Theos
        > > > > > would
        > > > > > > > be like saying that Jesus is God the Father because it
        > > would
        > > > > > teach
        > > > > > > > that there is no one else apart from the WORD in the
        > > > godhead.
        > > > > > John
        > > > > > > > shows us here what the nature of the word was "and the
        > word
        > > > was
        > > > > > > God -
        > > > > > > > that means what it says. From the beginning the word did
        > > not
        > > > > have
        > > > > > > > the nature of angels nor was he man before he came to
        > earth-
        > > -
        > > > ---
        > > > > -
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of]
        > > > angels;
        > > > > > but
        > > > > > > > he took on [him] the seed of Abraham
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---If he was neither man or nor angel in his pre-
        > existance
        > > > what
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > he?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Please before you comment on John 1:1 please refer to
        > post
        > > > 5701.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Can you really believe that Jesus is a god a lesser god
        > > > being
        > > > > > then
        > > > > > > > the Mighty God Jehovah? or that he can be a mighty God
        > like
        > > > > > Jehovah?
        > > > > > > > Even after scriptures teach there is only one God there
        > is
        > > > no
        > > > > > other
        > > > > > > > god beside him. So either we have two mighty God's or
        > Jesus
        > > > is
        > > > > > > > within the Godhead
        > > > > > > > But is this all christians go on? But even so far
        > evidence
        > > > is
        > > > > in
        > > > > > our
        > > > > > > > favour. But is there further reason why we believe it?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever
        > shall
        > > > > call
        > > > > > on
        > > > > > > > the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount
        > Zion
        > > > and
        > > > > in
        > > > > > > > Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,
        > and
        > > > in
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > remnant whom the LORD shall call.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of
        > > Egypt,
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour
        > > > beside
        > > > > > me.
        > > > > > > > That we shall know no god but jehovah, that there is no
        > > > saviour
        > > > > > > > beside him.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for
        > there
        > > > is
        > > > > > none
        > > > > > > > other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must
        > be
        > > > > > saved.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Phl 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence
        > > also
        > > > we
        > > > > > look
        > > > > > > > for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the
        > > Lord
        > > > > > shall
        > > > > > > > be saved.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---who does romans 10:13 refer to the answer is in a few
        > > > verses
        > > > > > > > before that----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the
        > Lord
        > > > > > Jesus,
        > > > > > > > and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised
        > him
        > > > from
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > dead, thou shalt be saved.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---so far we have Jesus being called creator, Saviour,
        > God
        > > > even
        > > > > > > > after the bible reveals there is no other God who is
        > > creator
        > > > > > saviour
        > > > > > > > or God.
        > > > > > > > Whose name do we gather in?----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together
        > in
        > > my
        > > > > > name,
        > > > > > > > there am I in the midst of them.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---This is the name we call upon and whose name we
        > gather
        > > in
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > whose name we bow to.
        > > > > > > > This verse even implies omnipresent which is another
        > > > attribute
        > > > > of
        > > > > > > > God, or do you not believe God is omnipresent?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither
        > > > shall I
        > > > > > > > flee from thy presence?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there:
        > if
        > > I
        > > > > > make my
        > > > > > > > bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- So here we see that Jesus is wherever two or three
        > are
        > > > > > gathered.
        > > > > > > > If a prayer service is going on in abbotsford british
        > > > columbia
        > > > > > he is
        > > > > > > > here, if a prayer service is going on in japan he is
        > there.
        > > > > > Jesus is
        > > > > > > > with me now as he is with every believer. ----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jeremiah 23:23-24 [Am] I a God at hand, saith the Lord,
        > and
        > > > not
        > > > > a
        > > > > > > > God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that
        > I
        > > > > shall
        > > > > > not
        > > > > > > > see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth?
        > > > saith
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > Lord.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 1 cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of
        > God,
        > > > and
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > Spirit of God dwells in you?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Bible shows us God knows our hearts, and even Jesus
        > > knows
        > > > our
        > > > > > > > hearts. God knows all things, and is everywhere,
        > omniscient
        > > > is
        > > > > > > > another attribute of God. But are there other names or
        > > titles
        > > > > > > > refered to both that strength this position?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Pantokrator in greek the literal meaning is He who has
        > the
        > > > > power
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > hold all things, omnipotence means: the state or quality
        > of
        > > > > being
        > > > > > > > omnipotent, having absolute authority, to be able to do
        > all
        > > > > > things
        > > > > > > > Jesus upholds all things and only God can uphold all
        > things
        > > > by
        > > > > > his
        > > > > > > > power. -----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
        > things
        > > > > > > > consist.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily,
        > > > > verily,
        > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but
        > what
        > > he
        > > > > > seeth
        > > > > > > > the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these
        > also
        > > > > doeth
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > Son likewise.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the
        > > > express
        > > > > > > > image of his person, and upholding all things by the
        > word
        > > of
        > > > his
        > > > > > > > power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down
        > on
        > > > the
        > > > > > right
        > > > > > > > hand of the Majesty on high;
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ----SO we have seen that Jesus is omniscient and
        > > > omnipresent,
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > Jesus can do whatever he sees the father doing and he
        > holds
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > world up by his power he created all things.----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth
        > the
        > > > > > secrets
        > > > > > > > of the heart.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --God knoweth the heart---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto
        > > them,
        > > > > > Every
        > > > > > > > kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation;
        > > and
        > > > > > every
        > > > > > > > city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Does it even go further then this?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I have everything I
        > > > need.
        > > > > > > > Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep],
        > and
        > > > am
        > > > > > known
        > > > > > > > of mine.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Lets also keep in mind---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me
        > > good?
        > > > > > [there
        > > > > > > > is] none good but one, [that is], God.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---So here we have Jesus being called the Shepherd and
        > said
        > > > he
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > good. Yet the LORD is our shepherd and only God is Good.
        > > > Good
        > > > > > what
        > > > > > > > exactly does it mean? Did not Jesus have to be without
        > sin
        > > > to
        > > > > be
        > > > > > sin
        > > > > > > > for us? For his sacrifice to be worth anything Jesus had
        > to
        > > > be
        > > > > > > > perfect, perfect meaning good. Had Jesus sinned he would
        > of
        > > > > > fallen
        > > > > > > > from perfection his sacrifice would be worthless. And
        > since
        > > > > > there is
        > > > > > > > only one Good and that is God one who is perfect it
        > would
        > > > stand
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > reason that Jesus is God since no one but him would of
        > been
        > > > > > worthy
        > > > > > > > enough to die for us.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Whose the Light?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 27:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] The LORD [is] my light
        > and
        > > > my
        > > > > > > > salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength
        > of
        > > > my
        > > > > > life;
        > > > > > > > of whom shall I be afraid?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am
        > the
        > > > > > light of
        > > > > > > > the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in
        > darkness,
        > > > but
        > > > > > > > shall have the light of life.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of
        > > him,
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no
        > > > darkness
        > > > > at
        > > > > > > > all.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---So here we have Jesus refered to as something that
        > God
        > > is.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Whose the first and last?--
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my
        > called; I
        > > > > [am]
        > > > > > he;
        > > > > > > > I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his
        > > > > redeemer
        > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the
        > last;
        > > > and
        > > > > > beside
        > > > > > > > me [there is] no God
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
        > > And
        > > > he
        > > > > > laid
        > > > > > > > his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am
        > the
        > > > > first
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > the last:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---SO here again we have Jesus refered to as something
        > that
        > > > God
        > > > > > is.
        > > > > > > > No the first and last for Jesus had not thing to do with
        > > God
        > > > > > raising
        > > > > > > > him then everyone else gets raised through jesus. Jesus
        > > > himself
        > > > > > said
        > > > > > > > i will raise it up on the third day.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > So lets recap -Jesus is or has been or has been called -
        > > > Lord of
        > > > > > > > Glory, Lord, God, worshipped, Mighty God, First and
        > last,
        > > > God
        > > > > > with
        > > > > > > > us, LORD our righteousness ,source of creation, his name
        > is
        > > > > > called
        > > > > > > > upon for salvation, Saviour, omnipresent, omniscient,
        > Has
        > > All
        > > > > > > > authority, Shepherd, Good, Light.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Anything else that makes a believer believe Jesus is
        > God?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and
        > Lord
        > > > of
        > > > > > lords,
        > > > > > > > a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth
        > not
        > > > > > persons,
        > > > > > > > nor taketh reward:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his
        > mercy
        > > > > > > > [endureth] for ever.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the
        > Lamb
        > > > shall
        > > > > > > > overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of
        > kings:
        > > > and
        > > > > > they
        > > > > > > > that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh
        > a
        > > > name
        > > > > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Yet another one Lord of lords interchanged.---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath
        > committed
        > > > all
        > > > > > > > judgment unto the Son:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath
        > > prepared
        > > > his
        > > > > > > > throne for judgment.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness,
        > he
        > > > shall
        > > > > > > > minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---The Son is the judge but the LORD is the judge
        > another
        > > one
        > > > > > > > interchanged.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > THE FORGIVER OF SINS---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isaiah 43:16-25
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Psa 10:16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the
        > heathen
        > > > are
        > > > > > > > perished out of his land.
        > > > > > > > Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift
        > up,
        > > > ye
        > > > > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
        > > > > > > > Psa 24:8 Who [is] this King of glory? The LORD strong
        > and
        > > > > mighty,
        > > > > > > > the LORD mighty in battle.
        > > > > > > > Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift
        > [them]
        > > > up, ye
        > > > > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
        > > > > > > > Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts,
        > he
        > > > [is]
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > King of glory. Selah.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh
        > a
        > > > name
        > > > > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Jesus is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords and He's
        > Lord
        > > > of
        > > > > > glory.
        > > > > > > > Do you have two Kings two Lords?
        > > > > > > > So is it blind faith that leads believers to believe
        > Jesus
        > > > is
        > > > > > God?
        > > > > > > > Is there absolutely no proof in this Jesus is God
        > teaching?
        > > > Am i
        > > > > > > > finished or is there more?
        > > > > > > > God the Father has never been seen but God has been seen
        > so
        > > > > > either
        > > > > > > > we have a contradiction or someone other then God the
        > Father
        > > > > > > > revealed himself as God----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy,
        > holy,
        > > > holy,
        > > > > > [is]
        > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his
        > glory.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone;
        > because
        > > I
        > > > > > [am] a
        > > > > > > > man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a
        > people
        > > of
        > > > > > unclean
        > > > > > > > lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of
        > hosts.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely
        > > die,
        > > > > > > > because we have seen God.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he
        > > > which
        > > > > is
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > God, he hath seen the Father
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers,
        > hearken;
        > > > The
        > > > > > God of
        > > > > > > > glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in
        > > > > > Mesopotamia,
        > > > > > > > before he dwelt in Charran,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---SO here we see that the King, LORD of hosts God has
        > been
        > > > > seen,
        > > > > > > > but this verse says no man hath seen the Father, so who
        > > > which
        > > > > > King
        > > > > > > > has been seen?---
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and
        > he
        > > > saw
        > > > > > > > [it], and was glad.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
        > unto
        > > > you,
        > > > > > > > Before Abraham was, I am.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Jesus is the King, Lord of Glory it was he who
        > appeared
        > > > to
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > men of OLD.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead and GOd
        > > said
        > > > he
        > > > > > rose
        > > > > > > > Christ up. I will raise it up. Tell no man that i'm the
        > > > Christ
        > > > > > tell
        > > > > > > > no man what has happened till after i arise for if they
        > > know
        > > > > any
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > this they won't crucify the Lord of Glory. That is why
        > > Jesus
        > > > > > didn't
        > > > > > > > outright prove who he was.
        > > > > > > > The biggest of them all is his phrase Son of God. You
        > are
        > > > the
        > > > > > nature
        > > > > > > > of the one who has begotten you. You are equal to the
        > one
        > > > who
        > > > > has
        > > > > > > > begotten you. Jesus was the visible of the invisible, he
        > > was
        > > > God
        > > > > > > > manifest in the flesh according to the scriptures. SO do
        > > > > > christians
        > > > > > > > belief rest solely on isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 and Hebrews
        > 1:8.
        > > > > While
        > > > > > > > they show him to be called God by three different
        > witnesses
        > > > and
        > > > > a
        > > > > > > > three fold cord is not to quickly broken this is not the
        > > > > complete
        > > > > > > > reason. This same Jesus will so come in like manor as
        > you
        > > > have
        > > > > > seen
        > > > > > > > him go he will return first in the clouds then visibly
        > and
        > > > then
        > > > > > his
        > > > > > > > foot will once again rest on this world.----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in
        > > > your
        > > > > > sins:
        > > > > > > > for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in
        > your
        > > > sins.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him
        > not.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and
        > upon
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
        > > > > > supplications:
        > > > > > > > and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and
        > > they
        > > > > > shall
        > > > > > > > mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and
        > > > shall
        > > > > > be in
        > > > > > > > bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for
        > [his]
        > > > > > > > firstborn.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---How could anyone but God be good enough to be a
        > > sacrifice
        > > > for
        > > > > > > > your sin? Can anyone other then God be perfect enough?
        > > > > > > > Does Bible show michael to have any attributes of God?
        > Does
        > > > the
        > > > > > > > Bible call Jesus an Angel? or Jesus is Michael? Is
        > Michael
        > > > > called
        > > > > > > > Lord? Is michael called King? If Jesus is michael why is
        > > > there
        > > > > no
        > > > > > > > reference to this as there is to Jesus being God? We've
        > > > already
        > > > > > > > talked about why Jesus never publically declared to be
        > Lord
        > > > of
        > > > > > Glory
        > > > > > > > because he had to die first then it could be revealed.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in
        > subjection
        > > > the
        > > > > > world
        > > > > > > > to come, whereof we speak.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Here it says the world to come of which Jesus is King
        > of
        > > > is
        > > > > > not
        > > > > > > > subject to an angel, Also it says he took not on him the
        > > > nature
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > angels but of man, so what nature was he? if he wasn't
        > man
        > > > or
        > > > > > angel
        > > > > > > > before his coming what was he? Jude mentions the name
        > Jesus
        > > > and
        > > > > > > > Michael in his one chapter, but even there he makes no
        > > > > > connection as
        > > > > > > > one being the other. He proved other wise by writing
        > > michael
        > > > > > saying
        > > > > > > > the Lord rebuke you and Jesus is the Lord of Glory. Even
        > in
        > > > > > > > revelations it doesn't connect the one being the other.
        > 1
        > > > Thess
        > > > > > > > doesn't even say Jesus is michael it says he will come
        > with
        > > > the
        > > > > > arch
        > > > > > > > angels voice----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of
        > his
        > > > > > Father
        > > > > > > > with his angels; and then he shall reward every man
        > > > according
        > > > > to
        > > > > > his
        > > > > > > > works.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory,
        > and
        > > > all
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne
        > of
        > > > his
        > > > > > > glory:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when
        > the
        > > > Lord
        > > > > > > > Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty
        > angels,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---Is it so hard to see this verse that the archangel
        > > > Michael ,
        > > > > > > > Gabriel and all the others are there with him to? and
        > the
        > > > other
        > > > > > > > Chief princes?
        > > > > > > > "All things" were created by him and for him without him
        > > was
        > > > not
        > > > > > > > anything made that was made, and if michael was made
        > then it
        > > > > > > > includes him to. We serve Jesus we praise his name we
        > pray
        > > > in
        > > > > his
        > > > > > > > name we bow the knee to his name he is our Saviour
        > Master
        > > > and
        > > > > > Lord.
        > > > > > > > Not one verse can be produced that says he's michael,
        > nor
        > > is
        > > > > > there
        > > > > > > > any proof that michael holds any attributes of God.
        > Michael
        > > > is
        > > > > > > > brought up by three witnesses and not one witness calls
        > him
        > > > > > jesus.
        > > > > > > > Not one witness calls Jesus an angel. I call upon the
        > name
        > > > of
        > > > > > Jesus,
        > > > > > > > in the name of Jesus we speak in, its Jesus who is Lord,
        > > Rom
        > > > > > 10:13
        > > > > > > > For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
        > be
        > > > > > saved.
        > > > > > > > I seek you to show one verse that says Jesus is Michael,
        > or
        > > > one
        > > > > > > > verse that says Jesus said i am not God. It is because
        > of
        > > > this
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > the following verse says----
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > 1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man
        > > > > > speaking by
        > > > > > > > the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no
        > man
        > > > can
        > > > > > say
        > > > > > > > that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ----This is something that through the Holy Scriptures
        > the
        > > > Holy
        > > > > > > > Spirit shows you the connections, the truth upon which
        > the
        > > > > words,
        > > > > > > > Lord of Glory truly mean. I implore you to search like
        > the
        > > > > > bereans--
        > > > > > > -
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in
        > Thessalonica,
        > > > in
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > they received the word with all readiness of mind, and
        > > > searched
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
        > that
        > > > > called
        > > > > > > > you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach
        > any
        > > > other
        > > > > > > > gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto
        > you,
        > > > let
        > > > > > him
        > > > > > > > be accursed.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ---It is your duty to follow up in scripture anything
        > > anyone
        > > > > > says to
        > > > > > > > you. You asked me where does it say Jesus is God. I have
        > > > given
        > > > > > you
        > > > > > > > three witnesses that speak of Jesus as God and i have
        > given
        > > > you
        > > > > > more
        > > > > > > > as well, incase you try to explain those verses away you
        > > > cannot
        > > > > > > > explain away that Jesus is Lord that he is the Lord of
        > > Glory
        > > > > upon
        > > > > > > > whom we come to for salvation, that there is none good
        > but
        > > > God,
        > > > > > > > Jesus if he's not God could not be good nor could he
        > have
        > > > been a
        > > > > > > > sacrifice for us. Can you produce three biblical
        > witnesses
        > > > that
        > > > > > > > noticably interchange Jesus being michael. Can you truly
        > > > produce
        > > > > > > > this type of evidence that you have asked of me? Where
        > in
        > > > > > scriptures
        > > > > > > > does it say "Jesus is God". I would assume that Michael
        > > > would of
        > > > > > > > been mentioned more in the old testament had that been
        > > Jesus
        > > > > pre-
        > > > > > > > human existance being how important Jesus is to mankind.
        > > Are
        > > > you
        > > > > > > > going to really teach that a archangel a created being
        > is
        > > > the
        > > > > > Lord
        > > > > > > > of Glory? The Lord of Glory who created ALL things and
        > > > without
        > > > > > him
        > > > > > > > was not anything made that was made? Would your evidence
        > > > hold
        > > > > up
        > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > the court of Law? Bring your witnesses forward who say
        > > Jesus
        > > > is
        > > > > > > > Michael! Can you do it? If this was the case why did
        > John
        > > > say
        > > > > > word
        > > > > > > > was God and not word was archangelos? Bible states he is
        > > > King
        > > > > of
        > > > > > his
        > > > > > > > kingdom there shall be no end.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the
        > creation
        > > > of
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > world are clearly seen, being understood by the things
        > that
        > > > are
        > > > > > > > made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they
        > are
        > > > > > without
        > > > > > > > excuse:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > There is one Lord of Glory , One God, One Saviour, One
        > > > Master,
        > > > > > One
        > > > > > > > Creator, One Light, One Life, One way, ONE HOPE! Michael
        > is
        > > > > never
        > > > > > > > called Lord he is never called Life, or the way, or
        > Master
        > > > or
        > > > > > God or
        > > > > > > > creator or Lord of Lords, King of Kings. So will you now
        > > > review
        > > > > > your
        > > > > > > > evidence? Do you have three witnesses that say Jesus is
        > > > michael?
        > > > > > > > I await your response to "will the real Jesus please
        > stand
        > > > up".
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Patricia
      • Patricia
        We re not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are discussing will the real Jesus please stand up, does the bible teach him to be God or michael, Does the
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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          We're not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are discussing
          will the real Jesus please stand up, does the bible teach him to be
          God or michael, Does the bible teach jesus to be created? This is
          the topic of conversation. You guys even after all this time have
          not even given one verse that states it in full as you asked me to
          do. I will be posting post two on this subject will the real Jesus
          please stand up later today or possibly tomorrow as i meditate on
          the scriptures and finish my post.

          Patricia


          --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, powerdog68
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > <<<"Also please comment regarding where does it say Jesus is
          Michael!">>>
          >
          > Argumentum ex silentio, Argument from silence.
          >
          > Where does it say God is a triune deity?
          >
          > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
          > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Please read the other post again WILL the real Jesus please
          stand up
          > > and comment! Also please comment regarding where does it say
          Jesus
          > > is Michael!
          > >
          > > I completely agree that John knew who the messiah was as well as
          all
          > > the apostles, since they did teach the early church that Jesus
          was
          > > God.Yes Jesus is the Son of God in the fullest sense, He is the
          > > nature of God you are the nature of your Father. But i still
          wait a
          > > reply on your part. John remember didn't say Archangelos en ho
          logos.
          > >
          > > Patricia
          > >
          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
          > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > John knew who his Messiah was and the full expression by the
          > > Apostle
          > > > as well as Paul, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew and Mark all
          testify
          > > to
          > > > the same belief: Jesus was the Son of YHWH in the fullest and
          > > > complete sense.
          > > >
          > > > John to Peter in the boat "It is the Lord"; John 21:7
          > > >
          > > > In Christ
          > > >
          > > > Donn
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
          > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > what do you think about the other post?....and still it goes
          > > > without
          > > > > saying what woulda happened if John had added the article in
          > > front
          > > > > of theos?
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In
          jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
          > > > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > This is why Edgar Goodspeed and James Moffatt in their two
          > > > > respective
          > > > > > translations translate John 1:1c as "the Word was
          divine".
          > > This
          > > > > > expresses what Paul discusses in Hebrews 1:1-4 and John as
          > > well
          > > > > > discusses more fully in the remainder of the Prologue of
          > > chapter
          > > > 1.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > CHARAKTER
          > > > > > the impress or essence of his Father
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Donn
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In
          jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
          > > > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Here is a little bit of grammar that i also posted in
          the
          > > other
          > > > > > > group that i forgot to post before this one.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > The following is written by a Native to greece called
          > > > > Constantine D.
          > > > > > > Lenis regarding John 1:1 and the greek text.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > In the greek language all the nouns have a gender; they
          > > appear
          > > > > > > either as masculine, feminine or neuter. eg. "the word"
          is
          > > > > > > masculine, "the door" is feminine and "the water" is
          neuter.
          > > > > > > In the Greek, the article "the" also has different
          genders
          > > in
          > > > > order
          > > > > > > to co-ordinate with the gender of the noun to which it
          > > refers.
          > > > > The
          > > > > > > article "the" appears in its three genders as O, H , TO.
          O
          > > for
          > > > > > > masculine; H for feminine; and TO for neuter.
          > > > > > > The form of the article "the" also changes depending on
          > > whether
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > noun to which it refers is found in a singular or plural
          > > form,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > whether it is in the nominative, genitive, dative ,
          > > accusative,
          > > > > or
          > > > > > > the vocative case. In a sentence, we may have the
          subject,
          > > the
          > > > > > > linking verb, and a subjective complement or predicate.
          The
          > > > > subject
          > > > > > > is a word or a group of wrods about which something is
          said,
          > > > > while
          > > > > > > the predicate makes a statement about the subject.
          > > > > > > When one constructs a sentence in English or Greek, one
          > > usually
          > > > > > > places the subject before the linking verb while the
          > > predicate
          > > > is
          > > > > > > placed after it. In greek the predicate may appear in
          the
          > > > > beginning,
          > > > > > > in the middle or at the end of a sentence. Usually the
          > > predicate
          > > > > > > appears after the linking verb, the predicate noun takes
          the
          > > > > > > article, and when it appears before the linking verb it
          does
          > > > not.
          > > > > > > The reason for this is so that the predicate will not be
          > > > confused
          > > > > > > with the subject.
          > > > > > > The above rule was explained by E. C. Colwell and was
          > > published
          > > > > in
          > > > > > > the Journal of biblical literature - he wrote a definite
          > > > > predicate
          > > > > > > nominative has the article when it follows the verb it
          does
          > > not
          > > > > have
          > > > > > > the article when it precedes the verb. -
          > > > > > > Toward the ends of his essay he concluded: "the
          following
          > > rules
          > > > > may
          > > > > > > be tentatively formulated to describe the use of the
          article
          > > > with
          > > > > > > the definite predicate nouns in sentences which the verb
          > > > occurs.
          > > > > (1)
          > > > > > > Definite predicate nouns here regularly take the article
          (2)
          > > The
          > > > > > > exceptions are for the most part due to a change in word
          > > order:
          > > > > (a)
          > > > > > > Definite predicate nouns which follow the verb (this is
          > > usually
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > order) usually take the article (b) Definite predicate
          nouns
          > > > > which
          > > > > > > precede the verb usually lack the article (c) Proper
          names
          > > > > regularly
          > > > > > > lack the article in the predicate. (d) Predicate
          nominatives
          > > in
          > > > > > > relative clauses regularly follow the verb whether or
          not
          > > they
          > > > > have
          > > > > > > the article.
          > > > > > > (instead of writing the whole article i'm just gonna
          skip
          > > ahead
          > > > > to a
          > > > > > > few other parts if you want the rest of it i can post it
          but
          > > for
          > > > > > > time purposes i won't right now )
          > > > > > > In the third clause in john 1:1 we see that the subject
          is (
          > > the
          > > > > > > word), the linkin gverb is HN(was) . the predicate is
          the
          > > noun
          > > > > > > (God). What we notice here is that the predicate noun
          God is
          > > > > placed
          > > > > > > before the linking verb (was) and therefore does not
          retain
          > > the
          > > > > > > article.
          > > > > > > If john had wanted to state the word was "a god" another
          god
          > > as
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > witnesses teach, he would have written clause c as
          follows.
          > > > > forgive
          > > > > > > me if the third word here is not exactly as it is in the
          > > greek
          > > > > > > because he wrote proper greek in the book but it looks
          like
          > > how
          > > > i
          > > > > > > wrote it
          > > > > > > Kai theos TIE HN O LOGOS
          > > > > > > and God a was the word
          > > > > > > but this is not the case. John did not write it that
          way.
          > > > > Instead he
          > > > > > > wrote
          > > > > > > Theos HN o Logos
          > > > > > > so the above must be translated into english as "the
          word
          > > was
          > > > > God"
          > > > > > > This does not mean that the Word was "the God" as
          in "The
          > > > > Father".
          > > > > > > Clause c states one thing only --- That the Word, the
          > > prehuman
          > > > > > > Jesus, was God by nature. To put it another way, it
          means
          > > that
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > essence of the "WORD" is exactly the same as the
          Father's.
          > > The
          > > > > > > absence of the article "the" from before a predicate
          noun
          > > > > *whether
          > > > > > > that noun is qualititative, adjectival, definite or
          > > indefinite"
          > > > > does
          > > > > > > not change or weaken the basic meaning of that noun.----
          end
          > > of
          > > > > quote
          > > > > > > constantine D. Lenis.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > please go into more indepth of what you are refering to
          > > please.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Patricia
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In
          > > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "tlkreese"
          > > > > > > <tlkreese@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I agree with all the scriptures cited. They are the
          truth
          > > > and
          > > > > > > > revelation of who the Logos is and was in the creative
          > > > > process,
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > One through whom YHWH brought all things into
          existence,
          > > the
          > > > > One
          > > > > > > > through whom was channeled the holy spirit involved in
          > > > > creation.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > The conclusions-by whomever wrote this essay-could use
          > > some
          > > > > > > refining.
          > > > > > > > Areas of grammar-history-cultural useage all need to
          be
          > > > > addressed.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > A believer in Christ the Son of YHWH
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Donn
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In
          > > jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
          > > > > > > > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---It is asked Well if Jesus was God why did Jesus
          not
          > > > > reveal
          > > > > > it
          > > > > > > so?
          > > > > > > > > Why did Jesus not admit who he was and not leave
          people
          > > > > > > wondering. I
          > > > > > > > > think the following verses explains it---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he
          > > charged
          > > > > them
          > > > > > > > > that they should tell no man what things they had
          seen,
          > > > till
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > Son
          > > > > > > > > of man were risen from the dead.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they
          should
          > > > > tell
          > > > > > no
          > > > > > > man
          > > > > > > > > that he was Jesus the Christ.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew
          unto
          > > his
          > > > > > > > > disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and
          > > suffer
          > > > > many
          > > > > > > > > things of the elders and chief priests and scribes,
          and
          > > be
          > > > > > > killed,
          > > > > > > > > and be raised again the third day.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --And then the following verse completely shows why
          it
          > > was
          > > > > not
          > > > > > > > > revealed:--
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world
          knew:
          > > for
          > > > > had
          > > > > > > they
          > > > > > > > > known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord
          of
          > > glory
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --Some things were to be kept secret because had
          they
          > > known
          > > > > his
          > > > > > > true
          > > > > > > > > identity as Lord of Glory, the jews would not have
          > > > crucified
          > > > > > > their
          > > > > > > > > Lord. So some things were not revealed plainly even
          > > though
          > > > > at
          > > > > > > times
          > > > > > > > > the jews picked up on it but because the other
          things
          > > had
          > > > > not
          > > > > > > been
          > > > > > > > > revealed to them they believed him not because Jesus
          > > didn't
          > > > > > come
          > > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > openly declare who he was, he came to die so his
          glory
          > > was
          > > > > > veiled
          > > > > > > > > and the truth was hidden and was not completely
          revealed
          > > > > till
          > > > > > > after
          > > > > > > > > his resurrection which even Thomas's words declared
          it---
          > > -
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My
          Lord
          > > > and
          > > > > my
          > > > > > > God.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---The God of me and the Lord of Me, exclamation?
          > > > > expression?
          > > > > > > false
          > > > > > > > > report? Either way Jesus would have corrected him he
          did
          > > > say
          > > > > it
          > > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > Jesus, when i say a expression i don't usually use
          it as
          > > a
          > > > > > answer
          > > > > > > > > directed at a person but a more like WOW then i go
          are
          > > you
          > > > > > sure?
          > > > > > > He
          > > > > > > > > didn't just say one of these he said both of them TO
          > > Jesus
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > Jesus
          > > > > > > > > did not say no.
          > > > > > > > > Even the apostles worshipped Jesus:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples,
          behold,
          > > > > Jesus
          > > > > > > met
          > > > > > > > > them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him
          by
          > > the
          > > > > feet,
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > worshipped him.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ----not just bowing in reverence "held him by the
          feet"
          > > but
          > > > > they
          > > > > > > > > went further and worshipped him. Other people were
          > > > > prostrated
          > > > > > > before
          > > > > > > > > bow the head and prostrate oneself but that in
          itself is
          > > > not
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > act
          > > > > > > > > of worship.
          > > > > > > > > But is this enough to convince christians he was
          God? No
          > > so
          > > > > why
          > > > > > > do
          > > > > > > > > Christians believe Jesus is God? It comes with being
          > > > > familiar
          > > > > > > with
          > > > > > > > > scriptures
          > > > > > > > > It goes back to the prophecies:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isaiah 9:6 to start:
          > > > > > > > > For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given;
          and
          > > the
          > > > > > > > > government will be upon His shoulder. And His name
          will
          > > be
          > > > > > called
          > > > > > > > > Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
          Father,
          > > > Prince
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > Peace.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ----So you can see here some of what Jesus will be
          > > called.
          > > > > You
          > > > > > > > > answer yes it says Mighty God but not almighty God.
          The
          > > > > > following
          > > > > > > > > verses call God Mighty God----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, [even] the
          remnant
          > > of
          > > > > Jacob,
          > > > > > > > > unto the MIGHTY GOD.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto
          thousands, and
          > > > > > > > > recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the
          bosom
          > > of
          > > > > their
          > > > > > > > > children after them: the Great, the MIGHTY GOD, the
          LORD
          > > of
          > > > > > > hosts,
          > > > > > > > > [is] his name,
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hab 1:12 [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my
          God,
          > > > > mine
          > > > > > > Holy
          > > > > > > > > One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained
          them
          > > for
          > > > > > > judgment;
          > > > > > > > > and, O MIGHTY GOD, thou hast established them for
          > > > correction.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---As you can see Jehovah God is the Mighty God, now
          > > lets
          > > > > take
          > > > > > > this
          > > > > > > > > one step further:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and
          my
          > > > > servant
          > > > > > > whom
          > > > > > > > > I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and
          > > > > understand
          > > > > > > that
          > > > > > > > > I [am] he: before me there was no God formed,
          neither
          > > shall
          > > > > > > there be
          > > > > > > > > after me.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I
          have
          > > > > shewed,
          > > > > > > when
          > > > > > > > > [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye
          > > [are]
          > > > my
          > > > > > > > > witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and
          his
          > > > > > redeemer
          > > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the
          > > last;
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > BESIDE
          > > > > > > > > ME THERE IS NO GOD.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that CREATED THE
          > > HEAVENS;
          > > > > GOD
          > > > > > > > > HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath
          > > > > established
          > > > > > > it,
          > > > > > > > > he created it not in vain, he formed it to be
          inhabited:
          > > I
          > > > > [am]
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > LORD; and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the
          ends of
          > > > the
          > > > > > > earth:
          > > > > > > > > for I [am] God, and THERE IS NONE ELSE.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I
          [am]
          > > God,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > [there is] none else; [I am] God, and THERE IS NONE
          LIKE
          > > ME,
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land
          of
          > > > Egypt,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for THERE IS NO
          SAVIOUR
          > > > > BESIDE
          > > > > > ME.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --one God, one Saviour, one God to look unto to be
          > > saved,
          > > > no
          > > > > God
          > > > > > > > > formed neither will there be any after him. the LORD
          is
          > > the
          > > > > > > Mighty
          > > > > > > > > God so would you rightly be able to call anyone else
          > > truly
          > > > a
          > > > > > > Mighty
          > > > > > > > > God? So no i don't believe anyone else can be
          rightly
          > > > called
          > > > > > > Mighty
          > > > > > > > > God without there being another like God.---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that
          I
          > > will
          > > > > > raise
          > > > > > > > > unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall
          reign
          > > and
          > > > > > > prosper,
          > > > > > > > > and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and
          Israel
          > > shall
          > > > > > dwell
          > > > > > > > > safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be
          > > called,
          > > > > THE
          > > > > > > LORD
          > > > > > > > > OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and
          shall
          > > > > bring
          > > > > > > forth
          > > > > > > > > a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which
          being
          > > > > > > > > interpreted is, God with us.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---He shall be a King, called THE LORD OUR
          RIGHTEOUSNESS
          > > > and
          > > > > God
          > > > > > > > > with us
          > > > > > > > > which brings to light the following verse:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the
          mystery of
          > > > > > > godliness:
          > > > > > > > > God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the
          Spirit,
          > > > seen
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in
          the
          > > > world,
          > > > > > > > > received up into glory.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --Lets also keep in mind the creation:--
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him
          was
          > > > not
          > > > > any
          > > > > > > > > thing made that was made.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > (NWT)john 1:3 All things came into existence through
          > > him,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > apart
          > > > > > > > > from him not even one thing came into existence.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that
          are in
          > > > > > heaven,
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
          [they
          > > be]
          > > > > > > thrones,
          > > > > > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all
          things
          > > were
          > > > > > > created
          > > > > > > > > by him, and for him:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
          > > things
          > > > > > > consist.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Here it shows without Jesus not one thing was
          made
          > > > > that "WAS
          > > > > > > > > MADE". Jesus made all things and without him was not
          > > > > anything
          > > > > > > made
          > > > > > > > > that was made.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Reminds me of Genesis 1:1 ---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Gen 1:1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and
          the
          > > > > earth.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of
          the
          > > > > earth:
          > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---This is also said of Christ when the Father was
          > > talking
          > > > > to
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > Son:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hbr 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid
          the
          > > > > > > foundation
          > > > > > > > > of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine
          > > hands:
          > > > > > > > > what does the us mean? certainly not angels because
          > > angels
          > > > > were
          > > > > > > part
          > > > > > > > > of the creation not the creator.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Gen 1:26 And God said, Let "US" make man in our
          image,
          > > > after
          > > > > our
          > > > > > > > > likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish
          of
          > > the
          > > > > sea,
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and
          over
          > > all
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
          upon
          > > the
          > > > > > > earth.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the
          > > > > firstborn of
          > > > > > > > > every creature:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that
          are in
          > > > > > heaven,
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
          [they
          > > be]
          > > > > > > thrones,
          > > > > > > > > or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all
          things
          > > were
          > > > > > > created
          > > > > > > > > by him, and for him:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
          > > things
          > > > > > > consist.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---You might say see it says he's the first born
          that
          > > means
          > > > > he
          > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > the first created, no it means that he's the source
          > > author
          > > > of
          > > > > > > > > creation next verse says for by him were all things
          > > > created,
          > > > > it
          > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > created by him and for him. This verse states why he
          is
          > > > > refered
          > > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > as firstborn "he has preeminence". One of the many
          > > reasons
          > > > > why
          > > > > > it
          > > > > > > > > doesn't mean first created is because he created ALL
          > > > things,
          > > > > all
          > > > > > > > > things were made by him without him was not anything
          > > made
          > > > > that
          > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > made. It doesn't say he's the firstborn because God
          > > created
          > > > > him
          > > > > > > > > first it says he's first born for by him were ALL
          THINGS
          > > > > > created.
          > > > > > > > > SO, so far we have seen that it wasn't truly
          revealed
          > > who
          > > > he
          > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > because he never would have died had they known he
          was
          > > Lord
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > Glory. We talked about thomas's response to Jesus.
          We
          > > > talked
          > > > > a
          > > > > > > > > little about worship of Jesus Christ more then mere
          > > > > reverence.
          > > > > > We
          > > > > > > > > talked about how both God and Jesus are refered to
          as
          > > The
          > > > > > Mighty
          > > > > > > God
          > > > > > > > > and have read some of the verses that state there is
          > > none
          > > > > like
          > > > > > > God,
          > > > > > > > > that God is the Mighty God, I wrote verses showing
          there
          > > is
          > > > > > only
          > > > > > > one
          > > > > > > > > God, one Saviour there is none other no other Gods
          were
          > > > > > created,
          > > > > > > it
          > > > > > > > > says God alone laid the foundation of the earth, but
          we
          > > > also
          > > > > see
          > > > > > > > > Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and that he
          is
          > > the
          > > > > mighty
          > > > > > > > > God. We also see that NOTHING that was made was made
          > > > without
          > > > > > > Jesus,
          > > > > > > > > that must include him. Why else do Christians
          believe
          > > Jesus
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > God?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Is it just because John 1:1 says:---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > In the beginning was the word and the word was with
          God
          > > and
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > Word
          > > > > > > > > was God?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---partially but not the full reason why Christians
          > > believe
          > > > > > > Jesus is
          > > > > > > > > God. Lets look at this text a bit further even look
          into
          > > > the
          > > > > jw
          > > > > > > > > translation--
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > (NWT)John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and
          the
          > > Word
          > > > > was
          > > > > > > with
          > > > > > > > > God, and the Word was a god
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Does the letter "a" rightly belong? for what
          reason
          > > was
          > > > no
          > > > > > > > > article written before the final theos? What was
          John
          > > > trying
          > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > portray here. Did he leave the article out to show
          that
          > > > > Jesus
          > > > > > > wasn't
          > > > > > > > > Almighty God?
          > > > > > > > > For John to have written the article with the final
          word
          > > > > Theos
          > > > > > > would
          > > > > > > > > be like saying that Jesus is God the Father because
          it
          > > > would
          > > > > > > teach
          > > > > > > > > that there is no one else apart from the WORD in the
          > > > > godhead.
          > > > > > > John
          > > > > > > > > shows us here what the nature of the word was "and
          the
          > > word
          > > > > was
          > > > > > > > God -
          > > > > > > > > that means what it says. From the beginning the word
          did
          > > > not
          > > > > > have
          > > > > > > > > the nature of angels nor was he man before he came
          to
          > > earth-
          > > > -
          > > > > ---
          > > > > > -
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature
          of]
          > > > > angels;
          > > > > > > but
          > > > > > > > > he took on [him] the seed of Abraham
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---If he was neither man or nor angel in his pre-
          > > existance
          > > > > what
          > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > he?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Please before you comment on John 1:1 please refer
          to
          > > post
          > > > > 5701.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Can you really believe that Jesus is a god a lesser
          god
          > > > > being
          > > > > > > then
          > > > > > > > > the Mighty God Jehovah? or that he can be a mighty
          God
          > > like
          > > > > > > Jehovah?
          > > > > > > > > Even after scriptures teach there is only one God
          there
          > > is
          > > > > no
          > > > > > > other
          > > > > > > > > god beside him. So either we have two mighty God's
          or
          > > Jesus
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > > > within the Godhead
          > > > > > > > > But is this all christians go on? But even so far
          > > evidence
          > > > > is
          > > > > > in
          > > > > > > our
          > > > > > > > > favour. But is there further reason why we believe
          it?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that]
          whosoever
          > > shall
          > > > > > call
          > > > > > > on
          > > > > > > > > the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in
          mount
          > > Zion
          > > > > and
          > > > > > in
          > > > > > > > > Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath
          said,
          > > and
          > > > > in
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > remnant whom the LORD shall call.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hsa 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land
          of
          > > > Egypt,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no
          saviour
          > > > > beside
          > > > > > > me.
          > > > > > > > > That we shall know no god but jehovah, that there is
          no
          > > > > saviour
          > > > > > > > > beside him.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other:
          for
          > > there
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > none
          > > > > > > > > other name under heaven given among men, whereby we
          must
          > > be
          > > > > > > saved.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Phl 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from
          whence
          > > > also
          > > > > we
          > > > > > > look
          > > > > > > > > for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of
          the
          > > > Lord
          > > > > > > shall
          > > > > > > > > be saved.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---who does romans 10:13 refer to the answer is in a
          few
          > > > > verses
          > > > > > > > > before that----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
          the
          > > Lord
          > > > > > > Jesus,
          > > > > > > > > and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
          raised
          > > him
          > > > > from
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > dead, thou shalt be saved.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---so far we have Jesus being called creator,
          Saviour,
          > > God
          > > > > even
          > > > > > > > > after the bible reveals there is no other God who is
          > > > creator
          > > > > > > saviour
          > > > > > > > > or God.
          > > > > > > > > Whose name do we gather in?----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered
          together
          > > in
          > > > my
          > > > > > > name,
          > > > > > > > > there am I in the midst of them.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---This is the name we call upon and whose name we
          > > gather
          > > > in
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > whose name we bow to.
          > > > > > > > > This verse even implies omnipresent which is another
          > > > > attribute
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > God, or do you not believe God is omnipresent?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or
          whither
          > > > > shall I
          > > > > > > > > flee from thy presence?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art]
          there:
          > > if
          > > > I
          > > > > > > make my
          > > > > > > > > bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --- So here we see that Jesus is wherever two or
          three
          > > are
          > > > > > > gathered.
          > > > > > > > > If a prayer service is going on in abbotsford
          british
          > > > > columbia
          > > > > > > he is
          > > > > > > > > here, if a prayer service is going on in japan he is
          > > there.
          > > > > > > Jesus is
          > > > > > > > > with me now as he is with every believer. ----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jeremiah 23:23-24 [Am] I a God at hand, saith the
          Lord,
          > > and
          > > > > not
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > > > God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places
          that
          > > I
          > > > > > shall
          > > > > > > not
          > > > > > > > > see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and
          earth?
          > > > > saith
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > Lord.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 1 cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple
          of
          > > God,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > Spirit of God dwells in you?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Bible shows us God knows our hearts, and even
          Jesus
          > > > knows
          > > > > our
          > > > > > > > > hearts. God knows all things, and is everywhere,
          > > omniscient
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > > > another attribute of God. But are there other names
          or
          > > > titles
          > > > > > > > > refered to both that strength this position?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Pantokrator in greek the literal meaning is He who
          has
          > > the
          > > > > > power
          > > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > hold all things, omnipotence means: the state or
          quality
          > > of
          > > > > > being
          > > > > > > > > omnipotent, having absolute authority, to be able to
          do
          > > all
          > > > > > > things
          > > > > > > > > Jesus upholds all things and only God can uphold all
          > > things
          > > > > by
          > > > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > power. -----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all
          > > things
          > > > > > > > > consist.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
          Verily,
          > > > > > verily,
          > > > > > > I
          > > > > > > > > say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but
          > > what
          > > > he
          > > > > > > seeth
          > > > > > > > > the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
          these
          > > also
          > > > > > doeth
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > Son likewise.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and
          the
          > > > > express
          > > > > > > > > image of his person, and upholding all things by the
          > > word
          > > > of
          > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat
          down
          > > on
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > right
          > > > > > > > > hand of the Majesty on high;
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ----SO we have seen that Jesus is omniscient and
          > > > > omnipresent,
          > > > > > > that
          > > > > > > > > Jesus can do whatever he sees the father doing and
          he
          > > holds
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > world up by his power he created all things.----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he
          knoweth
          > > the
          > > > > > > secrets
          > > > > > > > > of the heart.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > --God knoweth the heart---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said
          unto
          > > > them,
          > > > > > > Every
          > > > > > > > > kingdom divided against itself is brought to
          desolation;
          > > > and
          > > > > > > every
          > > > > > > > > city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Does it even go further then this?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I have
          everything I
          > > > > need.
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my
          [sheep],
          > > and
          > > > > am
          > > > > > > known
          > > > > > > > > of mine.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Lets also keep in mind---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou
          me
          > > > good?
          > > > > > > [there
          > > > > > > > > is] none good but one, [that is], God.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---So here we have Jesus being called the Shepherd
          and
          > > said
          > > > > he
          > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > > good. Yet the LORD is our shepherd and only God is
          Good.
          > > > > Good
          > > > > > > what
          > > > > > > > > exactly does it mean? Did not Jesus have to be
          without
          > > sin
          > > > > to
          > > > > > be
          > > > > > > sin
          > > > > > > > > for us? For his sacrifice to be worth anything Jesus
          had
          > > to
          > > > > be
          > > > > > > > > perfect, perfect meaning good. Had Jesus sinned he
          would
          > > of
          > > > > > > fallen
          > > > > > > > > from perfection his sacrifice would be worthless.
          And
          > > since
          > > > > > > there is
          > > > > > > > > only one Good and that is God one who is perfect it
          > > would
          > > > > stand
          > > > > > > to
          > > > > > > > > reason that Jesus is God since no one but him would
          of
          > > been
          > > > > > > worthy
          > > > > > > > > enough to die for us.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Whose the Light?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 27:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] The LORD [is] my
          light
          > > and
          > > > > my
          > > > > > > > > salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the
          strength
          > > of
          > > > > my
          > > > > > > life;
          > > > > > > > > of whom shall I be afraid?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I
          am
          > > the
          > > > > > > light of
          > > > > > > > > the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in
          > > darkness,
          > > > > but
          > > > > > > > > shall have the light of life.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard
          of
          > > > him,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is
          no
          > > > > darkness
          > > > > > at
          > > > > > > > > all.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---So here we have Jesus refered to as something
          that
          > > God
          > > > is.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Whose the first and last?--
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my
          > > called; I
          > > > > > [am]
          > > > > > > he;
          > > > > > > > > I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and
          his
          > > > > > redeemer
          > > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the
          > > last;
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > beside
          > > > > > > > > me [there is] no God
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as
          dead.
          > > > And
          > > > > he
          > > > > > > laid
          > > > > > > > > his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I
          am
          > > the
          > > > > > first
          > > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > the last:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---SO here again we have Jesus refered to as
          something
          > > that
          > > > > God
          > > > > > > is.
          > > > > > > > > No the first and last for Jesus had not thing to do
          with
          > > > God
          > > > > > > raising
          > > > > > > > > him then everyone else gets raised through jesus.
          Jesus
          > > > > himself
          > > > > > > said
          > > > > > > > > i will raise it up on the third day.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > So lets recap -Jesus is or has been or has been
          called -
          > > > > Lord of
          > > > > > > > > Glory, Lord, God, worshipped, Mighty God, First and
          > > last,
          > > > > God
          > > > > > > with
          > > > > > > > > us, LORD our righteousness ,source of creation, his
          name
          > > is
          > > > > > > called
          > > > > > > > > upon for salvation, Saviour, omnipresent,
          omniscient,
          > > Has
          > > > All
          > > > > > > > > authority, Shepherd, Good, Light.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Anything else that makes a believer believe Jesus is
          > > God?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods,
          and
          > > Lord
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > lords,
          > > > > > > > > a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which
          regardeth
          > > not
          > > > > > > persons,
          > > > > > > > > nor taketh reward:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for
          his
          > > mercy
          > > > > > > > > [endureth] for ever.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and
          the
          > > Lamb
          > > > > shall
          > > > > > > > > overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of
          > > kings:
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > they
          > > > > > > > > that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and
          faithful.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his
          thigh
          > > a
          > > > > name
          > > > > > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Yet another one Lord of lords interchanged.---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath
          > > committed
          > > > > all
          > > > > > > > > judgment unto the Son:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath
          > > > prepared
          > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > throne for judgment.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in
          righteousness,
          > > he
          > > > > shall
          > > > > > > > > minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---The Son is the judge but the LORD is the judge
          > > another
          > > > one
          > > > > > > > > interchanged.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > THE FORGIVER OF SINS---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isaiah 43:16-25
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Psa 10:16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the
          > > heathen
          > > > > are
          > > > > > > > > perished out of his land.
          > > > > > > > > Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye
          lift
          > > up,
          > > > > ye
          > > > > > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come
          in.
          > > > > > > > > Psa 24:8 Who [is] this King of glory? The LORD
          strong
          > > and
          > > > > > mighty,
          > > > > > > > > the LORD mighty in battle.
          > > > > > > > > Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift
          > > [them]
          > > > > up, ye
          > > > > > > > > everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come
          in.
          > > > > > > > > Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of
          hosts,
          > > he
          > > > > [is]
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > King of glory. Selah.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his
          thigh
          > > a
          > > > > name
          > > > > > > > > written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Jesus is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords and
          He's
          > > Lord
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > glory.
          > > > > > > > > Do you have two Kings two Lords?
          > > > > > > > > So is it blind faith that leads believers to believe
          > > Jesus
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > God?
          > > > > > > > > Is there absolutely no proof in this Jesus is God
          > > teaching?
          > > > > Am i
          > > > > > > > > finished or is there more?
          > > > > > > > > God the Father has never been seen but God has been
          seen
          > > so
          > > > > > > either
          > > > > > > > > we have a contradiction or someone other then God
          the
          > > Father
          > > > > > > > > revealed himself as God----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy,
          > > holy,
          > > > > holy,
          > > > > > > [is]
          > > > > > > > > the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his
          > > glory.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone;
          > > because
          > > > I
          > > > > > > [am] a
          > > > > > > > > man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a
          > > people
          > > > of
          > > > > > > unclean
          > > > > > > > > lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of
          > > hosts.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall
          surely
          > > > die,
          > > > > > > > > because we have seen God.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save
          he
          > > > > which
          > > > > > is
          > > > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > God, he hath seen the Father
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers,
          > > hearken;
          > > > > The
          > > > > > > God of
          > > > > > > > > glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was
          in
          > > > > > > Mesopotamia,
          > > > > > > > > before he dwelt in Charran,
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---SO here we see that the King, LORD of hosts God
          has
          > > been
          > > > > > seen,
          > > > > > > > > but this verse says no man hath seen the Father, so
          who
          > > > > which
          > > > > > > King
          > > > > > > > > has been seen?---
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:
          and
          > > he
          > > > > saw
          > > > > > > > > [it], and was glad.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
          > > unto
          > > > > you,
          > > > > > > > > Before Abraham was, I am.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Jesus is the King, Lord of Glory it was he who
          > > appeared
          > > > > to
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > men of OLD.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead and
          GOd
          > > > said
          > > > > he
          > > > > > > rose
          > > > > > > > > Christ up. I will raise it up. Tell no man that i'm
          the
          > > > > Christ
          > > > > > > tell
          > > > > > > > > no man what has happened till after i arise for if
          they
          > > > know
          > > > > > any
          > > > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > this they won't crucify the Lord of Glory. That is
          why
          > > > Jesus
          > > > > > > didn't
          > > > > > > > > outright prove who he was.
          > > > > > > > > The biggest of them all is his phrase Son of God.
          You
          > > are
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > nature
          > > > > > > > > of the one who has begotten you. You are equal to
          the
          > > one
          > > > > who
          > > > > > has
          > > > > > > > > begotten you. Jesus was the visible of the
          invisible, he
          > > > was
          > > > > God
          > > > > > > > > manifest in the flesh according to the scriptures.
          SO do
          > > > > > > christians
          > > > > > > > > belief rest solely on isaiah 9:6, John 1:1 and
          Hebrews
          > > 1:8.
          > > > > > While
          > > > > > > > > they show him to be called God by three different
          > > witnesses
          > > > > and
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > > > three fold cord is not to quickly broken this is not
          the
          > > > > > complete
          > > > > > > > > reason. This same Jesus will so come in like manor
          as
          > > you
          > > > > have
          > > > > > > seen
          > > > > > > > > him go he will return first in the clouds then
          visibly
          > > and
          > > > > then
          > > > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > foot will once again rest on this world.----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall
          die in
          > > > > your
          > > > > > > sins:
          > > > > > > > > for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die
          in
          > > your
          > > > > sins.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received
          him
          > > not.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David,
          and
          > > upon
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of
          > > > > > > supplications:
          > > > > > > > > and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,
          and
          > > > they
          > > > > > > shall
          > > > > > > > > mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son],
          and
          > > > > shall
          > > > > > > be in
          > > > > > > > > bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for
          > > [his]
          > > > > > > > > firstborn.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---How could anyone but God be good enough to be a
          > > > sacrifice
          > > > > for
          > > > > > > > > your sin? Can anyone other then God be perfect
          enough?
          > > > > > > > > Does Bible show michael to have any attributes of
          God?
          > > Does
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > Bible call Jesus an Angel? or Jesus is Michael? Is
          > > Michael
          > > > > > called
          > > > > > > > > Lord? Is michael called King? If Jesus is michael
          why is
          > > > > there
          > > > > > no
          > > > > > > > > reference to this as there is to Jesus being God?
          We've
          > > > > already
          > > > > > > > > talked about why Jesus never publically declared to
          be
          > > Lord
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > Glory
          > > > > > > > > because he had to die first then it could be
          revealed.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in
          > > subjection
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > world
          > > > > > > > > to come, whereof we speak.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Here it says the world to come of which Jesus is
          King
          > > of
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > not
          > > > > > > > > subject to an angel, Also it says he took not on him
          the
          > > > > nature
          > > > > > > of
          > > > > > > > > angels but of man, so what nature was he? if he
          wasn't
          > > man
          > > > > or
          > > > > > > angel
          > > > > > > > > before his coming what was he? Jude mentions the
          name
          > > Jesus
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > > > Michael in his one chapter, but even there he makes
          no
          > > > > > > connection as
          > > > > > > > > one being the other. He proved other wise by writing
          > > > michael
          > > > > > > saying
          > > > > > > > > the Lord rebuke you and Jesus is the Lord of Glory.
          Even
          > > in
          > > > > > > > > revelations it doesn't connect the one being the
          other.
          > > 1
          > > > > Thess
          > > > > > > > > doesn't even say Jesus is michael it says he will
          come
          > > with
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > arch
          > > > > > > > > angels voice----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory
          of
          > > his
          > > > > > > Father
          > > > > > > > > with his angels; and then he shall reward every man
          > > > > according
          > > > > > to
          > > > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > works.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his
          glory,
          > > and
          > > > > all
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the
          throne
          > > of
          > > > > his
          > > > > > > > glory:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us,
          when
          > > the
          > > > > Lord
          > > > > > > > > Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty
          > > angels,
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---Is it so hard to see this verse that the
          archangel
          > > > > Michael ,
          > > > > > > > > Gabriel and all the others are there with him to?
          and
          > > the
          > > > > other
          > > > > > > > > Chief princes?
          > > > > > > > > "All things" were created by him and for him without
          him
          > > > was
          > > > > not
          > > > > > > > > anything made that was made, and if michael was made
          > > then it
          > > > > > > > > includes him to. We serve Jesus we praise his name
          we
          > > pray
          > > > > in
          > > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > name we bow the knee to his name he is our Saviour
          > > Master
          > > > > and
          > > > > > > Lord.
          > > > > > > > > Not one verse can be produced that says he's
          michael,
          > > nor
          > > > is
          > > > > > > there
          > > > > > > > > any proof that michael holds any attributes of God.
          > > Michael
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > > > brought up by three witnesses and not one witness
          calls
          > > him
          > > > > > > jesus.
          > > > > > > > > Not one witness calls Jesus an angel. I call upon
          the
          > > name
          > > > > of
          > > > > > > Jesus,
          > > > > > > > > in the name of Jesus we speak in, its Jesus who is
          Lord,
          > > > Rom
          > > > > > > 10:13
          > > > > > > > > For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
          shall
          > > be
          > > > > > > saved.
          > > > > > > > > I seek you to show one verse that says Jesus is
          Michael,
          > > or
          > > > > one
          > > > > > > > > verse that says Jesus said i am not God. It is
          because
          > > of
          > > > > this
          > > > > > > that
          > > > > > > > > the following verse says----
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > 1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no
          man
          > > > > > > speaking by
          > > > > > > > > the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that]
          no
          > > man
          > > > > can
          > > > > > > say
          > > > > > > > > that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ----This is something that through the Holy
          Scriptures
          > > the
          > > > > Holy
          > > > > > > > > Spirit shows you the connections, the truth upon
          which
          > > the
          > > > > > words,
          > > > > > > > > Lord of Glory truly mean. I implore you to search
          like
          > > the
          > > > > > > bereans--
          > > > > > > > -
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in
          > > Thessalonica,
          > > > > in
          > > > > > > that
          > > > > > > > > they received the word with all readiness of mind,
          and
          > > > > searched
          > > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from
          him
          > > that
          > > > > > called
          > > > > > > > > you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven,
          preach
          > > any
          > > > > other
          > > > > > > > > gospel unto you than that which we have preached
          unto
          > > you,
          > > > > let
          > > > > > > him
          > > > > > > > > be accursed.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > ---It is your duty to follow up in scripture
          anything
          > > > anyone
          > > > > > > says to
          > > > > > > > > you. You asked me where does it say Jesus is God. I
          have
          > > > > given
          > > > > > > you
          > > > > > > > > three witnesses that speak of Jesus as God and i
          have
          > > given
          > > > > you
          > > > > > > more
          > > > > > > > > as well, incase you try to explain those verses away
          you
          > > > > cannot
          > > > > > > > > explain away that Jesus is Lord that he is the Lord
          of
          > > > Glory
          > > > > > upon
          > > > > > > > > whom we come to for salvation, that there is none
          good
          > > but
          > > > > God,
          > > > > > > > > Jesus if he's not God could not be good nor could he
          > > have
          > > > > been a
          > > > > > > > > sacrifice for us. Can you produce three biblical
          > > witnesses
          > > > > that
          > > > > > > > > noticably interchange Jesus being michael. Can you
          truly
          > > > > produce
          > > > > > > > > this type of evidence that you have asked of me?
          Where
          > > in
          > > > > > > scriptures
          > > > > > > > > does it say "Jesus is God". I would assume that
          Michael
          > > > > would of
          > > > > > > > > been mentioned more in the old testament had that
          been
          > > > Jesus
          > > > > > pre-
          > > > > > > > > human existance being how important Jesus is to
          mankind.
          > > > Are
          > > > > you
          > > > > > > > > going to really teach that a archangel a created
          being
          > > is
          > > > > the
          > > > > > > Lord
          > > > > > > > > of Glory? The Lord of Glory who created ALL things
          and
          > > > > without
          > > > > > > him
          > > > > > > > > was not anything made that was made? Would your
          evidence
          > > > > hold
          > > > > > up
          > > > > > > in
          > > > > > > > > the court of Law? Bring your witnesses forward who
          say
          > > > Jesus
          > > > > is
          > > > > > > > > Michael! Can you do it? If this was the case why did
          > > John
          > > > > say
          > > > > > > word
          > > > > > > > > was God and not word was archangelos? Bible states
          he is
          > > > > King
          > > > > > of
          > > > > > > his
          > > > > > > > > kingdom there shall be no end.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the
          > > creation
          > > > > of
          > > > > > the
          > > > > > > > > world are clearly seen, being understood by the
          things
          > > that
          > > > > are
          > > > > > > > > made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that
          they
          > > are
          > > > > > > without
          > > > > > > > > excuse:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > There is one Lord of Glory , One God, One Saviour,
          One
          > > > > Master,
          > > > > > > One
          > > > > > > > > Creator, One Light, One Life, One way, ONE HOPE!
          Michael
          > > is
          > > > > > never
          > > > > > > > > called Lord he is never called Life, or the way, or
          > > Master
          > > > > or
          > > > > > > God or
          > > > > > > > > creator or Lord of Lords, King of Kings. So will you
          now
          > > > > review
          > > > > > > your
          > > > > > > > > evidence? Do you have three witnesses that say Jesus
          is
          > > > > michael?
          > > > > > > > > I await your response to "will the real Jesus please
          > > stand
          > > > > up".
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Patricia
        • powerdog68
          I understand that Patricia, my point was to
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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            <<<"We're not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are discussing
            will the real Jesus please stand up,">>>

            I understand that Patricia, my point was to show the fallacy of your
            question.

            <<<"does the bible teach him to be God or michael,">>>

            The Bible clearly shows that Jesus and Michael are the same person,
            which is why many of Christendoms greatest trinitarian theologians
            have come to the same conclusion. When Michael is doing things that it
            is prophesied that Jesus will do, and that only Jesus can do, It seems
            pretty clear to me.

            <<<"Does the bible teach jesus to be created?">>>

            Clearly.

            <<<"You guys even after all this time have not even given one verse
            that states it in full as you asked me to do.">>>

            Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce'a
            write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and
            true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

            Are you going to give me the tired argument that arche means "ruler"
            here? I'll be happy to take you to school on that one.

            Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
            creation;

            Are you going to give me the easily disproved argument that this means
            preeminent? Be happy to open class on that one too.

            Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact
            representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the
            word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins
            he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

            Here Jesus is called the CHARAKTER of his father.

            BDAG: someth. produced as a representation, reproduction, representation,

            Friberg: NT of Christ in relation to God exact representation, precise
            reproduction, impress

            Louw-Nida: presentation as an exact reproduction of a particular form
            or structure - 'exact representation.

            Thayer: the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing,
            marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

            Strongs: the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively]
            representation): - express image.


            Patricia, could you please explain to us how it is that a
            reproduction, a facsimile, a copy, could ever be as old as the
            original? And if that isn't possible, whats the only other option?






            --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
            <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
            >
            > We're not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are discussing
            > will the real Jesus please stand up, does the bible teach him to be
            > God or michael, Does the bible teach jesus to be created? This is
            > the topic of conversation. You guys even after all this time have
            > not even given one verse that states it in full as you asked me to
            > do. I will be posting post two on this subject will the real Jesus
            > please stand up later today or possibly tomorrow as i meditate on
            > the scriptures and finish my post.
            >
            > Patricia
          • Ryck
            From: Patricia ... here you do what you guys accused me of doing, changing the topic. This is not a trinity discussion really
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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              From: "Patricia" <paradise_with_jesus@...>

              >>
              here you do what you guys accused me of doing, changing the topic.
              This is not a trinity discussion really but will the real Jesus
              please stand up. Who does the bible teach Jesus to be That is what
              the post was about. SO please respond in response to the post thanks
              >>

              There are still two individuals mentioned here, not three. I think I
              answered in topic to your solicitation for opinions. Want to discuss
              Trinity? Then all that was left for you to ask in addition was, "What if
              John added the Holy Spirit was God, gave it a name, and said it was part of
              the Father and the Son"?

              .r.
            • Ryck
              From: powerdog68 ... Why do these folks seem to think we will be intimidated when they drag out these worn out and tired arguments that have been refuted years
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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                From: powerdog68

                >>
                Why do these folks seem to think we will be intimidated when they drag
                out these worn out and tired arguments that have been refuted years ago?
                >>

                I guess it makes them feel better to say SOMETHING with the hope we don't
                remember it is a recycle and assume it is a new post.

                ROFL!

                .r.
              • Patricia
                While i can come up with verses that say jesus is God you cannot come up with one that says Jesus is michael, but only comment on what you have heard others
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 1, 2005
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                  While i can come up with verses that say jesus is God you cannot
                  come up with one that says Jesus is michael, but only comment on
                  what you have heard others say. But where is biblical proof? Show me
                  three witnesses that say jesus is michael. again more then one
                  person has asked this question but the question you asked me could
                  be answered while where does it say Jesus is michael goes unanswered.

                  Patricia


                  --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, powerdog68
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > <<<"We're not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are
                  discussing
                  > will the real Jesus please stand up,">>>
                  >
                  > I understand that Patricia, my point was to show the fallacy of
                  your
                  > question.
                  >
                  > <<<"does the bible teach him to be God or michael,">>>
                  >
                  > The Bible clearly shows that Jesus and Michael are the same person,
                  > which is why many of Christendoms greatest trinitarian theologians
                  > have come to the same conclusion. When Michael is doing things
                  that it
                  > is prophesied that Jesus will do, and that only Jesus can do, It
                  seems
                  > pretty clear to me.
                  >
                  > <<<"Does the bible teach jesus to be created?">>>
                  >
                  > Clearly.
                  >
                  > <<<"You guys even after all this time have not even given one verse
                  > that states it in full as you asked me to do.">>>
                  >
                  > Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce'a
                  > write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and
                  > true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
                  >
                  > Are you going to give me the tired argument that arche
                  means "ruler"
                  > here? I'll be happy to take you to school on that one.
                  >
                  > Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of
                  all
                  > creation;
                  >
                  > Are you going to give me the easily disproved argument that this
                  means
                  > preeminent? Be happy to open class on that one too.
                  >
                  > Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact
                  > representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by
                  the
                  > word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our
                  sins
                  > he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.
                  >
                  > Here Jesus is called the CHARAKTER of his father.
                  >
                  > BDAG: someth. produced as a representation, reproduction,
                  representation,
                  >
                  > Friberg: NT of Christ in relation to God exact representation,
                  precise
                  > reproduction, impress
                  >
                  > Louw-Nida: presentation as an exact reproduction of a particular
                  form
                  > or structure - 'exact representation.
                  >
                  > Thayer: the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing,
                  > marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e
                  facsimile
                  >
                  > Strongs: the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or
                  [figuratively]
                  > representation): - express image.
                  >
                  >
                  > Patricia, could you please explain to us how it is that a
                  > reproduction, a facsimile, a copy, could ever be as old as the
                  > original? And if that isn't possible, whats the only other option?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
                  > <paradise_with_jesus@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > We're not discussing a trinity at the moment but we are
                  discussing
                  > > will the real Jesus please stand up, does the bible teach him to
                  be
                  > > God or michael, Does the bible teach jesus to be created? This
                  is
                  > > the topic of conversation. You guys even after all this time
                  have
                  > > not even given one verse that states it in full as you asked me
                  to
                  > > do. I will be posting post two on this subject will the real
                  Jesus
                  > > please stand up later today or possibly tomorrow as i meditate
                  on
                  > > the scriptures and finish my post.
                  > >
                  > > Patricia
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