Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Jehovah's Witnesses Gathering] Re: LUKE 23:43-"Truly I tell you today,You will be with me in Paradise"

Expand Messages
  • melissa
    Hello all. I have watched and read the emails coming in and the ones being responded to and I can t shut my mouth on this one. 1st and foremost I would like
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello all. I have watched and read the emails coming in and the ones
      being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this one. 1st and
      foremost I would like to say that "I am not a Jehovah's Witness" nor
      an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by the way I am
      typing.
      Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have "Judged" JW's in
      you last comment.

      You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16 (read it) and the
      end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.

      My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have to be here. There
      are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the Witness's, feel
      like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you here because you
      have questions, would like to share information or just be an idiot?
      If you have questions than act like an adult! There is no need
      to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are speaking out of the
      Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you? Unless you're an
      athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A God." Then you
      should know better. Of course no one was there when all of these
      things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we have the Bible
      as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although he did wrong.
      Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?

      And to whatever JW's that are on this message board you know Acts
      20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last month's Kingdom
      Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things paragraph 5+6
      tells you why. He is the type of person that if you (JW) were to
      knock on his door and try and speak what you are speaking now, he
      would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has questions etc.,
      there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.

      Melissa

      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
      <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
      > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have some
      > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
      > statements to the other man executed indicate he
      > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
      > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
      > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus was an
      > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death was a
      > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
      > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
      > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this humble,
      > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer asked
      > Jesus to not forget him.
      > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving his
      > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
      > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard told
      > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set up
      > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I will
      > not only remember you, but I will do you one better.
      > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
      > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
      > will be there also!!!
      > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
      > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know it
      > is impossible for him to have also been in a paradise,
      > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how many
      > days it was before his ascension back into the
      > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise transformed
      > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the earthly
      > events that would signify his return to power and the
      > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days previous
      > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
      > Matthew chapter 24?
      >
      > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had is
      > so easily understood when one considers the rest of
      > the scriptural context, that there is only one logical
      > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
      > death, was still lovingly representing his father and
      > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments before
      > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to the
      > blessings and benefits that all mankind will receive
      > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
      > Paul
      > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
      > > ---
      > > that is no proof that He personally understood it.
      > > Did you know this
      > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
      > > speak with
      > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare to
      > > say he understood
      > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't say
      > > that I know he
      > > understood it that way for I never met him. He must
      > > have been a
      > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
      > > trouble didn't he?
      > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out of
      > > trouble?
      > > Some of your scriptural references are not related
      > > to an earthly
      > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death
      > > forever and
      > > still give heavenly life?
      > >
      > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
      > > predictable.
      > > Ron
      > >
      > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
      > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
      > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
      > > Owens"
      > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >>
      > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave understood
      > > that?
      > > > >>
      > > >
      > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT? (smile)
      > > >
      > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise from
      > > the first few
      > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9. The
      > > "new heavens
      > > and
      > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
      > > 66:22-24) This is
      > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic king.
      > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
      > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations. (Isa
      > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
      > > The
      > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
      > > "Jehovah will
      > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and "He
      > > will actually
      > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
      > > apparently includes
      > > the
      > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
      > > restored as
      > > > apparently the topography of the land of Israel
      > > and the City of
      > > > Jerusalem is drastically altered: The deserts
      > > bloom just like a
      > > > rose, fresh water flows into the Dead Sea, the
      > > whole of Jerusalem
      > > > area is elevated. (Isa 35; Zech 14:8-11; Eze
      > > 47-48) Still, even in
      > > > this thoroughly idealized transformation, it is
      > > interesting and
      > > > important to note that these visions are still
      > > rather "earthly".
      > > > Humans remain on the earth, however the earth is
      > > "renewed".
      > > >
      > > > So, Ron, that's how I know. (grin) Either that or
      > > the evildoer was
      > > > the stupidest and most uneducated Jew that was
      > > ever executed in
      > > > Judah. (grin)
      > > >
      > > > Respectfully,
      > > >
      > > > .r.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
      > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
    • paul nation
      Hello Melissa, You bring up some very good points. Although my previous response was attached to a remark from Ron, most of my post was directed to an earlier
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Melissa,
        You bring up some very good points. Although my
        previous response was attached to a remark from Ron,
        most of my post was directed to an earlier post from
        Darrell. I am unfortunately at work right now and was
        just checking my email on a break, so I cannot spend
        much time reading and writing. But it was nice to
        hear from you.
        Paul
        --- melissa <Melissa@...> wrote:
        > Hello all. I have watched and read the emails
        > coming in and the ones
        > being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this
        > one. 1st and
        > foremost I would like to say that "I am not a
        > Jehovah's Witness" nor
        > an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by
        > the way I am
        > typing.
        > Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have
        > "Judged" JW's in
        > you last comment.
        >
        > You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16
        > (read it) and the
        > end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.
        >
        > My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have
        > to be here. There
        > are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the
        > Witness's, feel
        > like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you
        > here because you
        > have questions, would like to share information or
        > just be an idiot?
        > If you have questions than act like an adult! There
        > is no need
        > to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are
        > speaking out of the
        > Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you?
        > Unless you're an
        > athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A
        > God." Then you
        > should know better. Of course no one was there when
        > all of these
        > things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we
        > have the Bible
        > as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although
        > he did wrong.
        > Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?
        >
        > And to whatever JW's that are on this message board
        > you know Acts
        > 20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last
        > month's Kingdom
        > Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things
        > paragraph 5+6
        > tells you why. He is the type of person that if you
        > (JW) were to
        > knock on his door and try and speak what you are
        > speaking now, he
        > would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has
        > questions etc.,
        > there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.
        >
        > Melissa
        >
        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
        > <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
        > > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have
        > some
        > > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
        > > statements to the other man executed indicate he
        > > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
        > > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
        > > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus
        > was an
        > > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death
        > was a
        > > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
        > > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
        > > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this
        > humble,
        > > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer
        > asked
        > > Jesus to not forget him.
        > > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving
        > his
        > > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
        > > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard
        > told
        > > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set
        > up
        > > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I
        > will
        > > not only remember you, but I will do you one
        > better.
        > > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
        > > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
        > > will be there also!!!
        > > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
        > > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know
        > it
        > > is impossible for him to have also been in a
        > paradise,
        > > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how
        > many
        > > days it was before his ascension back into the
        > > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise
        > transformed
        > > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the
        > earthly
        > > events that would signify his return to power and
        > the
        > > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days
        > previous
        > > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
        > > Matthew chapter 24?
        > >
        > > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had
        > is
        > > so easily understood when one considers the rest
        > of
        > > the scriptural context, that there is only one
        > logical
        > > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
        > > death, was still lovingly representing his father
        > and
        > > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments
        > before
        > > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to
        > the
        > > blessings and benefits that all mankind will
        > receive
        > > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
        > > Paul
        > > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
        > > > ---
        > > > that is no proof that He personally understood
        > it.
        > > > Did you know this
        > > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
        > > > speak with
        > > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare
        > to
        > > > say he understood
        > > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't
        > say
        > > > that I know he
        > > > understood it that way for I never met him. He
        > must
        > > > have been a
        > > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
        > > > trouble didn't he?
        > > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out
        > of
        > > > trouble?
        > > > Some of your scriptural references are not
        > related
        > > > to an earthly
        > > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up
        > death
        > > > forever and
        > > > still give heavenly life?
        > > >
        > > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
        > > > predictable.
        > > > Ron
        > > >
        > > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
        > > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
        > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
        > > > Owens"
        > > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > >>
        > > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave
        > understood
        > > > that?
        > > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT?
        > (smile)
        > > > >
        > > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise
        > from
        > > > the first few
        > > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9.
        > The
        > > > "new heavens
        > > > and
        > > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
        > > > 66:22-24) This is
        > > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic
        > king.
        > > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
        > > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations.
        > (Isa
        > > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
        > > > The
        > > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
        > > > "Jehovah will
        > > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and
        > "He
        > > > will actually
        > > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
        > > > apparently includes
        > > > the
        > > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
        > > > restored as
        > > > > apparently the topography of the land of
        > Israel
        >
        === message truncated ===


        __________________________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
        http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
      • melissa
        Thanks Paul :-) The last email that I received was from you explaining about the evildoer and I just happened to scroll down to see what was said prior to and
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks Paul :-) The last email that I received was from you
          explaining about the evildoer and I just happened to scroll down to
          see what was said prior to and *BAM* there "he" was! I had to say
          something. Witness's would never respond in the manner that I did.
          (And I was being nice. Because I know better.) My thing is, everyone
          has different view points, opinions, beliefs etc. Why? Because there
          are sooo many different "Gods", false religions etc., out there but,
          only 1 True God. So why down play someone else's belifes because it
          isn't what he believes? We were created to have free will.
          I'm sorry if I interrupted your flow but it was bothering me all day
          and I had to let it out.

          Have a nice day at work.

          Melissa

          --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
          <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Melissa,
          > You bring up some very good points. Although my
          > previous response was attached to a remark from Ron,
          > most of my post was directed to an earlier post from
          > Darrell. I am unfortunately at work right now and was
          > just checking my email on a break, so I cannot spend
          > much time reading and writing. But it was nice to
          > hear from you.
          > Paul
          > --- melissa <Melissa@r...> wrote:
          > > Hello all. I have watched and read the emails
          > > coming in and the ones
          > > being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this
          > > one. 1st and
          > > foremost I would like to say that "I am not a
          > > Jehovah's Witness" nor
          > > an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by
          > > the way I am
          > > typing.
          > > Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have
          > > "Judged" JW's in
          > > you last comment.
          > >
          > > You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16
          > > (read it) and the
          > > end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.
          > >
          > > My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have
          > > to be here. There
          > > are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the
          > > Witness's, feel
          > > like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you
          > > here because you
          > > have questions, would like to share information or
          > > just be an idiot?
          > > If you have questions than act like an adult! There
          > > is no need
          > > to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are
          > > speaking out of the
          > > Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you?
          > > Unless you're an
          > > athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A
          > > God." Then you
          > > should know better. Of course no one was there when
          > > all of these
          > > things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we
          > > have the Bible
          > > as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although
          > > he did wrong.
          > > Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?
          > >
          > > And to whatever JW's that are on this message board
          > > you know Acts
          > > 20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last
          > > month's Kingdom
          > > Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things
          > > paragraph 5+6
          > > tells you why. He is the type of person that if you
          > > (JW) were to
          > > knock on his door and try and speak what you are
          > > speaking now, he
          > > would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has
          > > questions etc.,
          > > there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.
          > >
          > > Melissa
          > >
          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
          > > <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
          > > > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have
          > > some
          > > > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
          > > > statements to the other man executed indicate he
          > > > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
          > > > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
          > > > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus
          > > was an
          > > > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death
          > > was a
          > > > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
          > > > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
          > > > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this
          > > humble,
          > > > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer
          > > asked
          > > > Jesus to not forget him.
          > > > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving
          > > his
          > > > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
          > > > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard
          > > told
          > > > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set
          > > up
          > > > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I
          > > will
          > > > not only remember you, but I will do you one
          > > better.
          > > > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
          > > > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
          > > > will be there also!!!
          > > > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
          > > > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know
          > > it
          > > > is impossible for him to have also been in a
          > > paradise,
          > > > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how
          > > many
          > > > days it was before his ascension back into the
          > > > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise
          > > transformed
          > > > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the
          > > earthly
          > > > events that would signify his return to power and
          > > the
          > > > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days
          > > previous
          > > > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
          > > > Matthew chapter 24?
          > > >
          > > > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had
          > > is
          > > > so easily understood when one considers the rest
          > > of
          > > > the scriptural context, that there is only one
          > > logical
          > > > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
          > > > death, was still lovingly representing his father
          > > and
          > > > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments
          > > before
          > > > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to
          > > the
          > > > blessings and benefits that all mankind will
          > > receive
          > > > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
          > > > Paul
          > > > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
          > > > > ---
          > > > > that is no proof that He personally understood
          > > it.
          > > > > Did you know this
          > > > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
          > > > > speak with
          > > > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare
          > > to
          > > > > say he understood
          > > > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't
          > > say
          > > > > that I know he
          > > > > understood it that way for I never met him. He
          > > must
          > > > > have been a
          > > > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
          > > > > trouble didn't he?
          > > > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out
          > > of
          > > > > trouble?
          > > > > Some of your scriptural references are not
          > > related
          > > > > to an earthly
          > > > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up
          > > death
          > > > > forever and
          > > > > still give heavenly life?
          > > > >
          > > > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
          > > > > predictable.
          > > > > Ron
          > > > >
          > > > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
          > > > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
          > > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
          > > > > Owens"
          > > > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave
          > > understood
          > > > > that?
          > > > > > >>
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT?
          > > (smile)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise
          > > from
          > > > > the first few
          > > > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9.
          > > The
          > > > > "new heavens
          > > > > and
          > > > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
          > > > > 66:22-24) This is
          > > > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic
          > > king.
          > > > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
          > > > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations.
          > > (Isa
          > > > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
          > > > > The
          > > > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
          > > > > "Jehovah will
          > > > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and
          > > "He
          > > > > will actually
          > > > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
          > > > > apparently includes
          > > > > the
          > > > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
          > > > > restored as
          > > > > > apparently the topography of the land of
          > > Israel
          > >
          > === message truncated ===
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
          > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
        • Ron Owens
          ... Your insults mean Nothing to me. And shall not hinder me from posting on this group. If you do not like what I post don t read it. Simple or are you the
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- Judge not that thou wilst not be judged with the same judgemaent.
            Your insults mean Nothing to me. And shall not hinder me from
            posting on this group. If you do not like what I post don't read it.
            Simple or are you the idiot?
            Please, everyone here that is a JW You know that your Watchtower
            Leaders tell You to stay away from any internet activity that has
            opposition to "The Truth", Well I am in oppisition to this Chult as
            is Christ because He is The Truth. So if you continue to read my
            posts you are acting in apostacy according to your own "Truth".
            LOL your post simply made me laugh.
            Ron



            In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "melissa" <Melissa@r...> wrote:
            > Hello all. I have watched and read the emails coming in and the
            ones
            > being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this one. 1st and
            > foremost I would like to say that "I am not a Jehovah's Witness"
            nor
            > an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by the way I am
            > typing.
            > Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have "Judged" JW's
            in
            > you last comment.
            >
            > You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16 (read it) and the
            > end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.
            >
            > My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have to be here.
            There
            > are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the Witness's,
            feel
            > like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you here because
            you
            > have questions, would like to share information or just be an
            idiot?
            > If you have questions than act like an adult! There is no need
            > to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are speaking out of
            the
            > Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you? Unless you're
            an
            > athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A God." Then you
            > should know better. Of course no one was there when all of these
            > things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we have the
            Bible
            > as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although he did
            wrong.
            > Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?
            >
            > And to whatever JW's that are on this message board you know Acts
            > 20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last month's
            Kingdom
            > Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things paragraph 5+6
            > tells you why. He is the type of person that if you (JW) were to
            > knock on his door and try and speak what you are speaking now, he
            > would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has questions etc.,
            > there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.
            >
            > Melissa
            >
            > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
            > <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
            > > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have some
            > > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
            > > statements to the other man executed indicate he
            > > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
            > > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
            > > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus was an
            > > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death was a
            > > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
            > > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
            > > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this humble,
            > > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer asked
            > > Jesus to not forget him.
            > > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving his
            > > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
            > > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard told
            > > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set up
            > > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I will
            > > not only remember you, but I will do you one better.
            > > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
            > > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
            > > will be there also!!!
            > > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
            > > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know it
            > > is impossible for him to have also been in a paradise,
            > > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how many
            > > days it was before his ascension back into the
            > > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise transformed
            > > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the earthly
            > > events that would signify his return to power and the
            > > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days previous
            > > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
            > > Matthew chapter 24?
            > >
            > > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had is
            > > so easily understood when one considers the rest of
            > > the scriptural context, that there is only one logical
            > > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
            > > death, was still lovingly representing his father and
            > > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments before
            > > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to the
            > > blessings and benefits that all mankind will receive
            > > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
            > > Paul
            > > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
            > > > ---
            > > > that is no proof that He personally understood it.
            > > > Did you know this
            > > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
            > > > speak with
            > > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare to
            > > > say he understood
            > > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't say
            > > > that I know he
            > > > understood it that way for I never met him. He must
            > > > have been a
            > > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
            > > > trouble didn't he?
            > > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out of
            > > > trouble?
            > > > Some of your scriptural references are not related
            > > > to an earthly
            > > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death
            > > > forever and
            > > > still give heavenly life?
            > > >
            > > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
            > > > predictable.
            > > > Ron
            > > >
            > > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
            > > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
            > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
            > > > Owens"
            > > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > >>
            > > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave understood
            > > > that?
            > > > > >>
            > > > >
            > > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT? (smile)
            > > > >
            > > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise from
            > > > the first few
            > > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9. The
            > > > "new heavens
            > > > and
            > > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
            > > > 66:22-24) This is
            > > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic king.
            > > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
            > > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations. (Isa
            > > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
            > > > The
            > > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
            > > > "Jehovah will
            > > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and "He
            > > > will actually
            > > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
            > > > apparently includes
            > > > the
            > > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
            > > > restored as
            > > > > apparently the topography of the land of Israel
            > > > and the City of
            > > > > Jerusalem is drastically altered: The deserts
            > > > bloom just like a
            > > > > rose, fresh water flows into the Dead Sea, the
            > > > whole of Jerusalem
            > > > > area is elevated. (Isa 35; Zech 14:8-11; Eze
            > > > 47-48) Still, even in
            > > > > this thoroughly idealized transformation, it is
            > > > interesting and
            > > > > important to note that these visions are still
            > > > rather "earthly".
            > > > > Humans remain on the earth, however the earth is
            > > > "renewed".
            > > > >
            > > > > So, Ron, that's how I know. (grin) Either that or
            > > > the evildoer was
            > > > > the stupidest and most uneducated Jew that was
            > > > ever executed in
            > > > > Judah. (grin)
            > > > >
            > > > > Respectfully,
            > > > >
            > > > > .r.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
            > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
          • Ron Owens
            ... rhetoric will attack the person (another JW tactic). It should have said Well I am in opposition to this Cult... , Not Chult. Lol Ron In
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              ---Sorry about the typo as I know some who can not attack the
              rhetoric will attack the person (another JW tactic). It should have
              said" Well I am in opposition to this Cult...", Not Chult. Lol
              Ron

              In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@y...>
              wrote:
              > --- Judge not that thou wilst not be judged with the same
              judgemaent.
              > Your insults mean Nothing to me. And shall not hinder me from
              > posting on this group. If you do not like what I post don't read
              it.
              > Simple or are you the idiot?
              > Please, everyone here that is a JW You know that your Watchtower
              > Leaders tell You to stay away from any internet activity that has
              > opposition to "The Truth", Well I am in oppisition to this Chult
              as
              > is Christ because He is The Truth. So if you continue to read my
              > posts you are acting in apostacy according to your own "Truth".
              > LOL your post simply made me laugh.
              > Ron
              >
              >
              >
              > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "melissa" <Melissa@r...> wrote:
              > > Hello all. I have watched and read the emails coming in and the
              > ones
              > > being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this one. 1st
              and
              > > foremost I would like to say that "I am not a Jehovah's Witness"
              > nor
              > > an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by the way I am
              > > typing.
              > > Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have "Judged"
              JW's
              > in
              > > you last comment.
              > >
              > > You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16 (read it) and
              the
              > > end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.
              > >
              > > My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have to be here.
              > There
              > > are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the Witness's,
              > feel
              > > like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you here because
              > you
              > > have questions, would like to share information or just be an
              > idiot?
              > > If you have questions than act like an adult! There is no need
              > > to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are speaking out of
              > the
              > > Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you? Unless
              you're
              > an
              > > athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A God." Then you
              > > should know better. Of course no one was there when all of
              these
              > > things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we have the
              > Bible
              > > as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although he did
              > wrong.
              > > Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?
              > >
              > > And to whatever JW's that are on this message board you know
              Acts
              > > 20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last month's
              > Kingdom
              > > Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things paragraph
              5+6
              > > tells you why. He is the type of person that if you (JW) were to
              > > knock on his door and try and speak what you are speaking now,
              he
              > > would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has questions
              etc.,
              > > there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.
              > >
              > > Melissa
              > >
              > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
              > > <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
              > > > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have some
              > > > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
              > > > statements to the other man executed indicate he
              > > > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
              > > > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
              > > > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus was an
              > > > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death was a
              > > > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
              > > > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
              > > > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this humble,
              > > > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer asked
              > > > Jesus to not forget him.
              > > > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving his
              > > > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
              > > > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard told
              > > > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set up
              > > > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I will
              > > > not only remember you, but I will do you one better.
              > > > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
              > > > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
              > > > will be there also!!!
              > > > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
              > > > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know it
              > > > is impossible for him to have also been in a paradise,
              > > > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how many
              > > > days it was before his ascension back into the
              > > > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise transformed
              > > > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the earthly
              > > > events that would signify his return to power and the
              > > > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days previous
              > > > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
              > > > Matthew chapter 24?
              > > >
              > > > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had is
              > > > so easily understood when one considers the rest of
              > > > the scriptural context, that there is only one logical
              > > > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
              > > > death, was still lovingly representing his father and
              > > > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments before
              > > > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to the
              > > > blessings and benefits that all mankind will receive
              > > > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
              > > > Paul
              > > > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
              > > > > ---
              > > > > that is no proof that He personally understood it.
              > > > > Did you know this
              > > > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
              > > > > speak with
              > > > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare to
              > > > > say he understood
              > > > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't say
              > > > > that I know he
              > > > > understood it that way for I never met him. He must
              > > > > have been a
              > > > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
              > > > > trouble didn't he?
              > > > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out of
              > > > > trouble?
              > > > > Some of your scriptural references are not related
              > > > > to an earthly
              > > > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death
              > > > > forever and
              > > > > still give heavenly life?
              > > > >
              > > > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
              > > > > predictable.
              > > > > Ron
              > > > >
              > > > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
              > > > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
              > > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
              > > > > Owens"
              > > > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >>
              > > > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave understood
              > > > > that?
              > > > > > >>
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT? (smile)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise from
              > > > > the first few
              > > > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9. The
              > > > > "new heavens
              > > > > and
              > > > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
              > > > > 66:22-24) This is
              > > > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic king.
              > > > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
              > > > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations. (Isa
              > > > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
              > > > > The
              > > > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
              > > > > "Jehovah will
              > > > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and "He
              > > > > will actually
              > > > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
              > > > > apparently includes
              > > > > the
              > > > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
              > > > > restored as
              > > > > > apparently the topography of the land of Israel
              > > > > and the City of
              > > > > > Jerusalem is drastically altered: The deserts
              > > > > bloom just like a
              > > > > > rose, fresh water flows into the Dead Sea, the
              > > > > whole of Jerusalem
              > > > > > area is elevated. (Isa 35; Zech 14:8-11; Eze
              > > > > 47-48) Still, even in
              > > > > > this thoroughly idealized transformation, it is
              > > > > interesting and
              > > > > > important to note that these visions are still
              > > > > rather "earthly".
              > > > > > Humans remain on the earth, however the earth is
              > > > > "renewed".
              > > > > >
              > > > > > So, Ron, that's how I know. (grin) Either that or
              > > > > the evildoer was
              > > > > > the stupidest and most uneducated Jew that was
              > > > > ever executed in
              > > > > > Judah. (grin)
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Respectfully,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > .r.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > __________________________________________________
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
              > > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
            • melissa
              Whatever! You re not even worth a response. Obviously I was. I said what I had to say! Enough said. ... the ... Witness ... am ... of ... you ... to
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Whatever! You're not even worth a response. Obviously I was.
                I said what I had to say! Enough said.


                --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron Owens"
                <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
                > ---Sorry about the typo as I know some who can not attack the
                > rhetoric will attack the person (another JW tactic). It should have
                > said" Well I am in opposition to this Cult...", Not Chult. Lol
                > Ron
                >
                > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > --- Judge not that thou wilst not be judged with the same
                > judgemaent.
                > > Your insults mean Nothing to me. And shall not hinder me from
                > > posting on this group. If you do not like what I post don't read
                > it.
                > > Simple or are you the idiot?
                > > Please, everyone here that is a JW You know that your Watchtower
                > > Leaders tell You to stay away from any internet activity that has
                > > opposition to "The Truth", Well I am in oppisition to this Chult
                > as
                > > is Christ because He is The Truth. So if you continue to read my
                > > posts you are acting in apostacy according to your own "Truth".
                > > LOL your post simply made me laugh.
                > > Ron
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "melissa" <Melissa@r...>
                wrote:
                > > > Hello all. I have watched and read the emails coming in and
                the
                > > ones
                > > > being responded to and I can't shut my mouth on this one. 1st
                > and
                > > > foremost I would like to say that "I am not a Jehovah's
                Witness"
                > > nor
                > > > an Apostate and you probably can be able to tell by the way I
                am
                > > > typing.
                > > > Yes, I am going to "Judge" you Ron just as you have "Judged"
                > JW's
                > > in
                > > > you last comment.
                > > >
                > > > You are what Peter has spoke of in 2 Peter 3:16 (read it) and
                > the
                > > > end result is (you again) in 1 Timothy 6:3,4 and 5.
                > > >
                > > > My thing is: Why are you even here? You don't have to be here.
                > > There
                > > > are sites for you to go on for prople who "Hate" the Witness's,
                > > feel
                > > > like arguing points about the Witness etc. Are you here because
                > > you
                > > > have questions, would like to share information or just be an
                > > idiot?
                > > > If you have questions than act like an adult! There is no need
                > > > to "try" and put the JW's down for what they are speaking out
                of
                > > the
                > > > Bible. Did Jesus do that? No. So why should you? Unless
                > you're
                > > an
                > > > athiest. Because honestly, if you believe in "A God." Then
                you
                > > > should know better. Of course no one was there when all of
                > these
                > > > things occured with the evildoer but, that is why we have the
                > > Bible
                > > > as a learning tool. The evildoer was humble although he did
                > > wrong.
                > > > Are you questioning what "Jesus" told him himself?
                > > >
                > > > And to whatever JW's that are on this message board you know
                > Acts
                > > > 20:29,30. So why are you on here? I believe in last month's
                > > Kingdom
                > > > Ministry under Avoid the pursuit of valueless things paragraph
                > 5+6
                > > > tells you why. He is the type of person that if you (JW) were
                to
                > > > knock on his door and try and speak what you are speaking now,
                > he
                > > > would'nt answer the door or act funky. If he has questions
                > etc.,
                > > > there is always a Witness around and a Kingdom Hall.
                > > >
                > > > Melissa
                > > >
                > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., paul nation
                > > > <walterprognosticus@y...> wrote:
                > > > > The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have some
                > > > > knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
                > > > > statements to the other man executed indicate he
                > > > > understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
                > > > > warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
                > > > > about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus was an
                > > > > innocent man, above reproach, and that his death was a
                > > > > tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
                > > > > appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
                > > > > awaiting a future kingship. It is from this humble,
                > > > > yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer asked
                > > > > Jesus to not forget him.
                > > > > After listening to this evildoer and perceiving his
                > > > > heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
                > > > > encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard told
                > > > > him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set up
                > > > > my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I will
                > > > > not only remember you, but I will do you one better.
                > > > > I am promising you this day...when paradise is
                > > > > restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
                > > > > will be there also!!!
                > > > > Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
                > > > > Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know it
                > > > > is impossible for him to have also been in a paradise,
                > > > > physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how many
                > > > > days it was before his ascension back into the
                > > > > heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise transformed
                > > > > here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the earthly
                > > > > events that would signify his return to power and the
                > > > > fulfillment of scriptural promises just days previous
                > > > > to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
                > > > > Matthew chapter 24?
                > > > >
                > > > > This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had is
                > > > > so easily understood when one considers the rest of
                > > > > the scriptural context, that there is only one logical
                > > > > conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
                > > > > death, was still lovingly representing his father and
                > > > > showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments before
                > > > > his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to the
                > > > > blessings and benefits that all mankind will receive
                > > > > through Gods kingdom arrangement.
                > > > > Paul
                > > > > --- Ron Owens <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
                > > > > > ---
                > > > > > that is no proof that He personally understood it.
                > > > > > Did you know this
                > > > > > man personally to know that? No. So how can you
                > > > > > speak with
                > > > > > authority on this mans thought process. I dare to
                > > > > > say he understood
                > > > > > he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I can't say
                > > > > > that I know he
                > > > > > understood it that way for I never met him. He must
                > > > > > have been a
                > > > > > little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
                > > > > > trouble didn't he?
                > > > > > Did he not understand the law enough to keep out of
                > > > > > trouble?
                > > > > > Some of your scriptural references are not related
                > > > > > to an earthly
                > > > > > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death
                > > > > > forever and
                > > > > > still give heavenly life?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How
                > > > > > predictable.
                > > > > > Ron
                > > > > >
                > > > > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck"
                > > > > > <odracyr@h...> wrote:
                > > > > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ron
                > > > > > Owens"
                > > > > > > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > > How do know that the evildoer would ave understood
                > > > > > that?
                > > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Um, because the Jews had the complete OT? (smile)
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > And the evildoer was Jewish. He knew paradise from
                > > > > > the first few
                > > > > > > chapters of Genesis. Then you have Isa 11:6-9. The
                > > > > > "new heavens
                > > > > > and
                > > > > > > new earth" as Isaiah terms it (Isa 65:17-25;
                > > > > > 66:22-24) This is
                > > > > > > inaurgurated by a highly idealized Davidic king.
                > > > > > (Isa 11:1-5; Mic
                > > > > > > 5:2-4) Total peace reigns among all nations. (Isa
                > > > > > 2:4; Mic 4:3)
                > > > > > The
                > > > > > > suffering and toils of life are eliminated as
                > > > > > "Jehovah will
                > > > > > > certainly wipe the tears from all faces", and "He
                > > > > > will actually
                > > > > > > swallow up death forever". (Isa 25-7-8) This
                > > > > > apparently includes
                > > > > > the
                > > > > > > resurrection of the dead. (Isa 26:19) Paradise
                > > > > > restored as
                > > > > > > apparently the topography of the land of Israel
                > > > > > and the City of
                > > > > > > Jerusalem is drastically altered: The deserts
                > > > > > bloom just like a
                > > > > > > rose, fresh water flows into the Dead Sea, the
                > > > > > whole of Jerusalem
                > > > > > > area is elevated. (Isa 35; Zech 14:8-11; Eze
                > > > > > 47-48) Still, even in
                > > > > > > this thoroughly idealized transformation, it is
                > > > > > interesting and
                > > > > > > important to note that these visions are still
                > > > > > rather "earthly".
                > > > > > > Humans remain on the earth, however the earth is
                > > > > > "renewed".
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > So, Ron, that's how I know. (grin) Either that or
                > > > > > the evildoer was
                > > > > > > the stupidest and most uneducated Jew that was
                > > > > > ever executed in
                > > > > > > Judah. (grin)
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Respectfully,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > .r.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > __________________________________________________
                > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
                > > > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
              • Ryck
                From: Ron Owens ... that is no proof that He personally understood it. Did you know this man personnally to know that? No. So how
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  From: "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@...>

                  >>
                  that is no proof that He personally understood it. Did you know this man
                  personnally to know that? No. So how can you speak with authority on
                  this mans thought process.
                  >>

                  I stated on Wed, Thurs, and repeat today, the sympathetic evildoer had
                  the OT Writings to go with. Nothing else! He being a Jew and product of
                  the OT education of his time we have to think as a Jew and a product of
                  the OT education of his time. To do otherwise is not being honest.

                  >>
                  I dare to say he understood he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I
                  can't say that I know he
                  understood it that way for I never met him.
                  >>

                  I don't see evidence how you can dare or assert that using OT alone. The
                  OT doesn't support the claim that his understanding was other than
                  earthly.

                  >>
                  He must have been a little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
                  trouble didn't he? Did he not understand the law enough to keep out of
                  trouble?
                  >>

                  LOL!

                  Well, even the smartest criminals are really dumb criminals. Isn't that
                  true? (smile)

                  >>
                  Some of your scriptural references are not related to an earthly
                  paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death forever and still
                  give heavenly life?
                  >>

                  Sure they are. I didn't want to over quote but here is what precede:

                  *** Rbi8 Isaiah 25:6-8 ***
                  6 And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this
                  mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept on]
                  the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept on]
                  the dregs, filtered. 7 And in this mountain he will certainly swallow up
                  the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and
                  the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. 8 He will
                  actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will
                  certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people
                  he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken
                  [it].
                  ***

                  On His mountain a "banquet of well-oiled dishes", "wine kept on the
                  dregs", "dishes filled with marrow", where people will live without
                  cause for death and unhappiness. Sounds like paradise to me. Not only
                  that, I'm getting hungry.

                  I'm not sure about marrow however although I can't say I ever tried it.
                  (grin)

                  >>
                  Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How predictable.
                  >>

                  Sorry you took offense, Ron. None intended. I was being witty.

                  .r.
                • Ron Owens
                  ... could they not. If God can make an earthly paradise could he not have a heavenly one? Come on do you really think that earth is more beautiful than heaven?
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ---These paradisaic conditions could exist in the heavenly realm
                    could they not. If God can make an earthly paradise could he not
                    have a heavenly one? Come on do you really think that earth is more
                    beautiful than heaven? The scriptures you just used certainly are
                    descriptive of something pleasing and only let me know how great it
                    will be to receive this heavenly reward. Thanks for clearing up the
                    (Grin), Now I am Being witty as I LOL.
                    Ron


                    In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck" <odracyr@h...> wrote:
                    > From: "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@y...>
                    >
                    > >>
                    > that is no proof that He personally understood it. Did you know
                    this man
                    > personnally to know that? No. So how can you speak with authority
                    on
                    > this mans thought process.
                    > >>
                    >
                    > I stated on Wed, Thurs, and repeat today, the sympathetic evildoer
                    had
                    > the OT Writings to go with. Nothing else! He being a Jew and
                    product of
                    > the OT education of his time we have to think as a Jew and a
                    product of
                    > the OT education of his time. To do otherwise is not being honest.
                    >
                    > >>
                    > I dare to say he understood he would be with Jesus in heaven, But I
                    > can't say that I know he
                    > understood it that way for I never met him.
                    > >>
                    >
                    > I don't see evidence how you can dare or assert that using OT
                    alone. The
                    > OT doesn't support the claim that his understanding was other than
                    > earthly.
                    >
                    > >>
                    > He must have been a little stupid as he got himself into a lot of
                    > trouble didn't he? Did he not understand the law enough to keep
                    out of
                    > trouble?
                    > >>
                    >
                    > LOL!
                    >
                    > Well, even the smartest criminals are really dumb criminals. Isn't
                    that
                    > true? (smile)
                    >
                    > >>
                    > Some of your scriptural references are not related to an earthly
                    > paradise- IE, Isa. 25:7,8 can't God swallow up death forever and
                    still
                    > give heavenly life?
                    > >>
                    >
                    > Sure they are. I didn't want to over quote but here is what
                    precede:
                    >
                    > *** Rbi8 Isaiah 25:6-8 ***
                    > 6 And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples,
                    in this
                    > mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept
                    on]
                    > the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept
                    on]
                    > the dregs, filtered. 7 And in this mountain he will certainly
                    swallow up
                    > the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the
                    peoples, and
                    > the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. 8 He will
                    > actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah
                    will
                    > certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his
                    people
                    > he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has
                    spoken
                    > [it].
                    > ***
                    >
                    > On His mountain a "banquet of well-oiled dishes", "wine kept on the
                    > dregs", "dishes filled with marrow", where people will live without
                    > cause for death and unhappiness. Sounds like paradise to me. Not
                    only
                    > that, I'm getting hungry.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure about marrow however although I can't say I ever
                    tried it.
                    > (grin)
                    >
                    > >>
                    > Your Smug (Grins) remind of the typical JW. How predictable.
                    > >>
                    >
                    > Sorry you took offense, Ron. None intended. I was being witty.
                    >
                    > .r.
                  • dldavis007
                    Paul, ... Jesus did not go into elaborate detail as you suggest. He simply said, You will be with me in Paradise , no explanation of restore the earth and
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 1, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Paul,

                      >The evildoer hanging next to Jesus had to have some
                      >knowledge and intelligence. Not only did his
                      >statements to the other man executed indicate he
                      >understood the wrongs he had committed, and his
                      >warranting execution, but he also appreciated much
                      >about Jesus himself. He appreciated that Jesus was an
                      >innocent man, above reproach, and that his death was a
                      >tragic breach in justice. He knew enough to
                      >appreciate Jesus was indeed a true king and was
                      >awaiting a future kingship. It is from this humble,
                      >yet perceptive vantage point that this evildoer asked
                      >Jesus to not forget him.
                      >After listening to this evildoer and perceiving his
                      >heart condition, Jesus gave him great words of
                      >encouragement. Jesus, moved by what he had heard told
                      >him, basically, " I will not forget you when I set up
                      >my kingdom and restore the earth and mankind....I will
                      >not only remember you, but I will do you one better.
                      >I am promising you this day...when paradise is
                      >restored, you will not only be remembered, but you
                      >will be there also!!!

                      Jesus did not go into elaborate detail as you suggest.
                      He simply said, "You will be with me in Paradise", no
                      explanation of "restore the earth and mankind", or
                      "when paradise is restored" as you are adding to the
                      text. Luke 16:19-31 demonstrates what was believed to
                      happen at death. It agrees with Jewish thought
                      concerning the afterlife at that time. The fact that
                      this and the Rich man and Lazarus narrative both
                      appear in the same book adds weight to the argument.
                      If you insist that paradise is to be the future
                      restored earth, then is this also what 2Cor 12:4
                      is talking about?

                      2Cor 12:4 "that he was caught away into paradise"

                      It has also been brought up that he only had the OT and
                      it does not teach such things. The OT at that time in
                      the form of the LXX, which includes the apocrypha, did
                      teach such things.

                      2Esdra 7:36 Then the place of torment shall appear, and
                      over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell
                      shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise
                      of delight.

                      Begin Quote:
                      To the advancing thought involved in this process the moral
                      meaninglessness of the primitive Sheol became intolerable,
                      and between the Testaments we find a change taking place
                      in the descriptions of the underworld itself. The demand for
                      diverse fates in Sheol, corresponding with diverse character,
                      had already been voiced by Isaiah (Isaiah 14:18-20 and
                      Ezekiel, (Ezekiel 32:8-32) and this demand became ever
                      more imperative. In the Book of Enoch, written in the first
                      two centuries B.C., Sheol is divided into four parts, two each
                      for the wicked and the righteous. One contains the wicked
                      who in torment await the resurrection day, when final penalties
                      will be adjudged; another contains the wicked who already have
                      been punished and for whom there is to be no resurrection;
                      another contains the moderately good who await their reward
                      at the judgment; another contains the faithful saints who enjoy
                      Paradise until their rising at the last day to eternal blessedness.
                      (The Book of Enoch, Chap. 22)
                      (A Guide to Understanding the Bible by Harry Emerson Fosdick)
                      http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showchapter?
                      chapter_id=654
                      End Quote


                      >Since we know the scriptures absolutely state that
                      >Jesus was dead and in his tomb for 3 days, we know it
                      >is impossible for him to have also been in a paradise,
                      >physical or spiritual. Do you not remember how many
                      >days it was before his ascension back into the
                      >heavens? Have we seen a physical paradise transformed
                      >here on earth yet? Did he not chronicle the earthly
                      >events that would signify his return to power and the
                      >fulfillment of scriptural promises just days previous
                      >to his execution with his apostles, as stated at
                      >Matthew chapter 24?

                      If we look at what was currently believed at that time,
                      ideas of heaven had evolved. It was believed that there
                      were many levels to heaven. Third heaven is mentioned
                      by Paul in 2Cor 2:4. The book of Enoch is full of
                      narratives about the different levels of heaven.
                      Jesus' presence in paradise does not necessarily
                      contradict his resurrection and later ascension.
                      Without this background into first-century Judaism
                      it is reasonable suggest that this contradicts the
                      OT idea of death.

                      As for the fulfillment of earthy events that would
                      signify his return to power, let's save this for
                      another discussion.


                      >This conversation with the evildoer that Jesus had is
                      >so easily understood when one considers the rest of
                      >the scriptural context, that there is only one logical
                      >conclusion. Jesus, on that most solemn day of his
                      >death, was still lovingly representing his father and
                      >showing mercy for mankind. Even then, moments before
                      >his own death, we witness Jesus directing man to the
                      >blessings and benefits that all mankind will receive
                      >through Gods kingdom arrangement.

                      I prefer to determine what the text says not only
                      by looking at the scriptural context, but also by
                      looking at context of current beliefs.

                      Again, I must point out that the criminal would have
                      understood paradise in terms of the ideas that were
                      current in first-century Judaism. Jesus would have
                      had to have given him a detailed explanation to clarify
                      that he was speaking of a future event, about an earthly
                      paradise, where the Criminal would exist, but Jesus wouldn't,
                      but somehow they would both be together. This would
                      have also prevented almost two thousand years of
                      error by orthodox Christianity.

                      "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in paradise"

                      Such a big discussion, for a little comma.

                      Sincerely,

                      Darrell
                    • Ryck
                      From: Ron Owens ... These paradisaic conditions could exist in the heavenly realm could they not. ... That s pure conjecture, Ron.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 4, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From: "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@...>

                        >>
                        These paradisaic conditions could exist in the heavenly realm could they
                        not.
                        >>

                        That's pure conjecture, Ron. And you are entertaining pagan thoughts.
                        The pagans had their views of afterlife, hell, and heaven. Especially
                        with their teachings of an immortal soul that leaves the body after
                        death. If the evildoer was Greek, for example, would Jesus knowingly
                        give that evildoer the false impression that he was about to embark on
                        life in Jesus' kingdom in the Ellysian Fields? I can't imagine Jesus
                        giving him the public impression of that paganistic error. Moreover, the
                        Gospel writers would have mentioned that the evildoer was pagan.

                        Incidentally, the Greek teaching of an immortal soul is the foundation
                        upon which the doctrine of "Hell" was added to the church (along with
                        purgatory, limbo, worshiping of saints and Mary). Without souls being
                        immortal, there would have been no need of a place to put lost souls
                        which can never die. When this Greek teaching of an immortal soul came
                        into the church; a place to put the lost souls which could not die had
                        to be invented; for there is not one in the Bible.

                        >>
                        If God can make an earthly paradise could he not have a heavenly one?
                        Come on do you really think that earth is more beautiful than heaven?
                        >>

                        Do you? Did you come from there or did you get a vision? What else have
                        you "seen"? (grin)

                        All kidding aside. Contrary to some popular beliefs, I don't believe God
                        made the Earth to serve as a soul factory and soul proving ground in
                        order to inhabitate heaven and hell with souls. Please think reasonably,
                        Ron. Jehovah has angels in heaven to inhabit heaven. Angels are never
                        allowed to inhabit our planet. Those that did were rebels and their
                        inhabitation was forcibly cut short.

                        And let's reason on those humans that are transferred to heavenly life
                        after their death. They were not just any humans. They were Christians
                        with a proven calling and adoption to be in heaven with Christ. And the
                        disputed number of humans who go to heaven do so under special and
                        particular circumstances to serve as priests and kings. "Priest" are
                        intermediaries between God and others and "kings" are authority figures
                        for others. If humans end up in heaven, who are they supposed to be
                        "priests" and "kings" over? Those in unredeemable burning hellfire?
                        Hardly! (grin)

                        The Earth was made for human habitation. And as was God's original
                        purpose and is His promise, this Earth will be the paradise home for
                        humans He wanted it for. And there will be a resurrection of "the
                        righteous and the unrighteous" so they can get a chanced at this too.
                        What you view as "heaven" is a misplaced interpretation of earthly
                        paradise which was put into Man's very being from the beginning. We are
                        creatures for the Earth. We think, dream, feel, breathe, smell, touch,
                        see, hear, appreciate, eat, drink, are born, and thank God for earthly
                        things.

                        Adam was created in the Garden of Eden. Man was made for Paradise. What
                        we are living in now in this sinful state and in this sinful world
                        controlled by Satan is really an unnatural environment for humans. We
                        were not created for this. But don't think for a mistaken moment that
                        humans were created for the heavenly realm. That's not what the Genesis
                        account of creation tells us at all. Man was made sinless in a sinless
                        paradise environment and he was to extend it to the four corners of the
                        planet. Not to die after a while, go to heaven, and fly with the angels.
                        (grin)

                        C'mon Ron. Please get real!

                        >>
                        The scriptures you just used certainly are descriptive of something
                        pleasing and only let me know how great it will be to receive this
                        heavenly reward. Thanks for clearing up the (Grin), Now I am Being witty
                        as I LOL.
                        >>

                        Darryl gave some fine points to support the idea that the evildoer was
                        Jewish and had to understand the Jewish idea of Paradise when he heard
                        it from Jesus. I know you don't care for WT information. But for what it
                        is worth:

                        *** w70 4/15 236-7 The Leader on the Road to Peaceful Paradise ***
                        The reply of Jesus showed also his faith in the resurrection of the dead
                        for both himself and this friendly man. Jesus said to him: "Truly I tell
                        you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:39-43) There was
                        only one Paradise that this dying Jewish evildoer knew of, and that was,
                        not a paradise in heaven, but the Paradise in Eden in which Adam and Eve
                        had been created in human perfection. That was the Paradise to which
                        Jesus referred. His words to the evildoer meant that when he got into
                        his kingdom by resurrection from the dead, he would restore Paradise to
                        earth and he would remember this dead evildoer and see to it that he
                        enjoyed this earthly Paradise by resurrecting him from the dead. Jesus'
                        words also meant that the original purpose of Jehovah God to have all
                        our earthly globe transformed into a Paradise was to be realized under
                        the kingdom of Jesus Christ. On the day that Jesus said those words to
                        the evildoer, it looked very unlikely that such a thing would ever be.
                        But let all mankind rejoice. Paradise will soon be restored!

                        *** g79 8/8 26 "You Will Be with Me in Paradise"-Where? When? ***
                        But we do well to consider: Can anyone today be sure that that view of
                        paradise was common among Jews when Jesus was on earth? Even if that be
                        granted, the Jewish evildoer wasn't the one who spoke about paradise.
                        Jesus was. So what God's Son knew from the Hebrew Scriptures is what is
                        important. Ask yourself: When did Jesus ever countenance Jewish fables
                        or pagan teachings? Do you think that Christ would accept a view based
                        on the pagan Greek teaching of the immortality of the soul?

                        Then this earth will be transformed into a paradise, fulfilling
                        Messianic prophecies that the Jewish evildoer may well have known about.
                        By means of the miracle of resurrection many persons, including that
                        evildoer, will come back to life in the earthly realm of the Kingdom. In
                        this way Jesus will fulfill his words spoken so long ago: "Truly I tell
                        you today, You will be with me in Paradise."

                        ***

                        .r.
                      • Ron Owens
                        --Sorry i do not agree with you. As for my entertaing pagan thought s tha tis entirely your opinon. I do think that heaven must be more magnificiant than
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 4, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --Sorry i do not agree with you. As for my entertaing pagan thought
                          s tha tis entirely your opinon. I do think that heaven must be more
                          magnificiant than earth. Many have only seen visions of or glimpses
                          of it and describe it. The book of Revelation is one and are you
                          aware of anything on earth like these descriptions? You tell me to
                          get real, well thats as real as it gets. As for W/t info you are
                          correct and I would not believe anything that comes from that
                          antichrist, false prophet cult.
                          Ron



                          In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "Ryck" <odracyr@h...> wrote:
                          > From: "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@y...>
                          >
                          > >>
                          > These paradisaic conditions could exist in the heavenly realm
                          could they
                          > not.
                          > >>
                          >
                          > That's pure conjecture, Ron. And you are entertaining pagan
                          thoughts.
                          > The pagans had their views of afterlife, hell, and heaven.
                          Especially
                          > with their teachings of an immortal soul that leaves the body after
                          > death. If the evildoer was Greek, for example, would Jesus
                          knowingly
                          > give that evildoer the false impression that he was about to
                          embark on
                          > life in Jesus' kingdom in the Ellysian Fields? I can't imagine
                          Jesus
                          > giving him the public impression of that paganistic error.
                          Moreover, the
                          > Gospel writers would have mentioned that the evildoer was pagan.
                          >
                          > Incidentally, the Greek teaching of an immortal soul is the
                          foundation
                          > upon which the doctrine of "Hell" was added to the church (along
                          with
                          > purgatory, limbo, worshiping of saints and Mary). Without souls
                          being
                          > immortal, there would have been no need of a place to put lost
                          souls
                          > which can never die. When this Greek teaching of an immortal soul
                          came
                          > into the church; a place to put the lost souls which could not die
                          had
                          > to be invented; for there is not one in the Bible.
                          >
                          > >>
                          > If God can make an earthly paradise could he not have a heavenly
                          one?
                          > Come on do you really think that earth is more beautiful than
                          heaven?
                          > >>
                          >
                          > Do you? Did you come from there or did you get a vision? What else
                          have
                          > you "seen"? (grin)
                          >
                          > All kidding aside. Contrary to some popular beliefs, I don't
                          believe God
                          > made the Earth to serve as a soul factory and soul proving ground
                          in
                          > order to inhabitate heaven and hell with souls. Please think
                          reasonably,
                          > Ron. Jehovah has angels in heaven to inhabit heaven. Angels are
                          never
                          > allowed to inhabit our planet. Those that did were rebels and their
                          > inhabitation was forcibly cut short.
                          >
                          > And let's reason on those humans that are transferred to heavenly
                          life
                          > after their death. They were not just any humans. They were
                          Christians
                          > with a proven calling and adoption to be in heaven with Christ.
                          And the
                          > disputed number of humans who go to heaven do so under special and
                          > particular circumstances to serve as priests and kings. "Priest"
                          are
                          > intermediaries between God and others and "kings" are authority
                          figures
                          > for others. If humans end up in heaven, who are they supposed to be
                          > "priests" and "kings" over? Those in unredeemable burning hellfire?
                          > Hardly! (grin)
                          >
                          > The Earth was made for human habitation. And as was God's original
                          > purpose and is His promise, this Earth will be the paradise home
                          for
                          > humans He wanted it for. And there will be a resurrection of "the
                          > righteous and the unrighteous" so they can get a chanced at this
                          too.
                          > What you view as "heaven" is a misplaced interpretation of earthly
                          > paradise which was put into Man's very being from the beginning.
                          We are
                          > creatures for the Earth. We think, dream, feel, breathe, smell,
                          touch,
                          > see, hear, appreciate, eat, drink, are born, and thank God for
                          earthly
                          > things.
                          >
                          > Adam was created in the Garden of Eden. Man was made for Paradise.
                          What
                          > we are living in now in this sinful state and in this sinful world
                          > controlled by Satan is really an unnatural environment for humans.
                          We
                          > were not created for this. But don't think for a mistaken moment
                          that
                          > humans were created for the heavenly realm. That's not what the
                          Genesis
                          > account of creation tells us at all. Man was made sinless in a
                          sinless
                          > paradise environment and he was to extend it to the four corners
                          of the
                          > planet. Not to die after a while, go to heaven, and fly with the
                          angels.
                          > (grin)
                          >
                          > C'mon Ron. Please get real!
                          >
                          > >>
                          > The scriptures you just used certainly are descriptive of something
                          > pleasing and only let me know how great it will be to receive this
                          > heavenly reward. Thanks for clearing up the (Grin), Now I am Being
                          witty
                          > as I LOL.
                          > >>
                          >
                          > Darryl gave some fine points to support the idea that the evildoer
                          was
                          > Jewish and had to understand the Jewish idea of Paradise when he
                          heard
                          > it from Jesus. I know you don't care for WT information. But for
                          what it
                          > is worth:
                          >
                          > *** w70 4/15 236-7 The Leader on the Road to Peaceful Paradise ***
                          > The reply of Jesus showed also his faith in the resurrection of
                          the dead
                          > for both himself and this friendly man. Jesus said to him: "Truly
                          I tell
                          > you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:39-43) There
                          was
                          > only one Paradise that this dying Jewish evildoer knew of, and
                          that was,
                          > not a paradise in heaven, but the Paradise in Eden in which Adam
                          and Eve
                          > had been created in human perfection. That was the Paradise to
                          which
                          > Jesus referred. His words to the evildoer meant that when he got
                          into
                          > his kingdom by resurrection from the dead, he would restore
                          Paradise to
                          > earth and he would remember this dead evildoer and see to it that
                          he
                          > enjoyed this earthly Paradise by resurrecting him from the dead.
                          Jesus'
                          > words also meant that the original purpose of Jehovah God to have
                          all
                          > our earthly globe transformed into a Paradise was to be realized
                          under
                          > the kingdom of Jesus Christ. On the day that Jesus said those
                          words to
                          > the evildoer, it looked very unlikely that such a thing would ever
                          be.
                          > But let all mankind rejoice. Paradise will soon be restored!
                          >
                          > *** g79 8/8 26 "You Will Be with Me in Paradise"-Where? When? ***
                          > But we do well to consider: Can anyone today be sure that that
                          view of
                          > paradise was common among Jews when Jesus was on earth? Even if
                          that be
                          > granted, the Jewish evildoer wasn't the one who spoke about
                          paradise.
                          > Jesus was. So what God's Son knew from the Hebrew Scriptures is
                          what is
                          > important. Ask yourself: When did Jesus ever countenance Jewish
                          fables
                          > or pagan teachings? Do you think that Christ would accept a view
                          based
                          > on the pagan Greek teaching of the immortality of the soul?
                          >
                          > Then this earth will be transformed into a paradise, fulfilling
                          > Messianic prophecies that the Jewish evildoer may well have known
                          about.
                          > By means of the miracle of resurrection many persons, including
                          that
                          > evildoer, will come back to life in the earthly realm of the
                          Kingdom. In
                          > this way Jesus will fulfill his words spoken so long ago: "Truly I
                          tell
                          > you today, You will be with me in Paradise."
                          >
                          > ***
                          >
                          > .r.
                        • Ryck
                          From: Ron Owens ... Sorry i do not agree with you. ... I know, Ron. But I took a shot at it. (grin) ... As for my entertaing pagan
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 5, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            From: "Ron Owens" <rondoggy2000@...>

                            >>
                            Sorry i do not agree with you.
                            >>

                            I know, Ron. But I took a shot at it. (grin)

                            >>
                            As for my entertaing pagan thoughts tha tis entirely your opinon.
                            >>

                            Perhaps, but it is an opinion I've not made lightly nor without other
                            considerations.

                            >>
                            I do think that heaven must be more magnificiant than earth. Many have
                            only seen visions of or glimpses of it and describe it. The book of
                            Revelation is one and are you aware of anything on earth like these
                            descriptions?
                            >>

                            If you want to live there, that's fine with me. I do say that Jehovah
                            made Man to live on a paradise Earth. Man was designed physically,
                            emotionally, mentally, and spiritually for eternal existence on Earth in
                            accord with Jehovah's will.

                            As far as heaven goes, we don't know. No one does. Those Bible writers
                            who wrote about it saw glimpses of what they saw in their visions,
                            dreams if you will, with a great deal of symbolism involved.

                            >>
                            You tell me to get real, well thats as real as it gets.
                            >>

                            It will be real for you when it happens.

                            .r.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.