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Re: What a fool I am

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  • Robert
    ... oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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      >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
      oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<

      So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as the
      same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
      doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the
      Father??
      Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?

      Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
      Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
      referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they were
      the same person?

      As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the same
      person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are separate
      persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one is
      disputing that. Which is it?

      I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could come
      up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.


      -Rob




      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lasren"
      <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
      > Rob
      >
      > Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions
      about
      > me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
      > presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.
      >
      > "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
      > 19:13
      >
      > I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
      > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed that
      > she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.
      >
      > If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and
      condemnatory
      > approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you on
      any
      > subject you care to mention.
      >
      > PL
      >
      > > From: Robert
      > > Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:25 pm
      > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
      > >
      > > You know, i've asked similar questions in this group before, and
      get
      > > pretty similar answers.
      > > Its clear that you are willing to judge JWs, and myself, and
      correct
      > > us where you believe we are wrong, but you avoid correcting
      anyone
      > > else when its shown they are wrong. It also shows that correcting
      > > people who you believe are wrong, is not your motive for being in
      > > this group, otherwise you would correct Barb.
      > > This is similar to Barb's and others claims that they are here to
      > > convert the unbelievers, as they see JWs. Well I have proven
      this a
      > > lie a number of times. There are a few people in this group who
      > > have, on numerous occasions, stated that they don't believe in
      God.
      > > In fact they have posted messages refuting the existance of God
      or
      > > any higher power. Yet Barb has not once tried to convert any of
      > > them. In fact not one of those here who oppose JWs has tried.
      > > However, they have praised them when they post some anti-Witness
      > > articel. Now explain to me how someone can claim to be here to
      > > convert the unbelievers, while ignoring the professed
      unbelievers in
      > > this group, and even counting them as brothers/sisters when they
      > > post something against JWs? You may use the old excuse, "Well
      this
      > > is a JW group, so im only dealing with JWs" or some such, but
      where
      > > in the Bible does it say to only preach to certain people under
      > > certain circumstances? Where does it say, "Speak not to the
      Gentile
      > > when hes among the Jews."?
      > > As a trinitarian interested in spreading the truth as you know
      it,
      > > you should be correcting Barb, but you don't. Obviously its
      because
      > > it really doesnt matter to you what she believes. You're both
      here
      > > to attack JWs so you're on the same team despite the fact that
      you
      > > yourselves believe differently. Either that, or you really don't
      > > understand the trinity doctrine enough to realize shes got it
      wrong.
      > > I asked you, "Do you correct all those you find to be wrong, or
      just
      > > certain people?" Well, as we have just seen it is only select few
      > > who you feel must be corrected, while others can go on there
      merry
      > > way, as long as they pass one simple test. Do they hate
      Witnesses.
      > >
      > > -Rob
      > >
      > >
    • rondoggy2000
      ... Perhaps that is God s name... and God being Father, Son and Holy Spirit... Are Jehovah? In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, Robert ... the
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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        ---Where exactly in the bible does it say that the Father is Jehovah?
        Perhaps that is God's name... and God being Father, Son and Holy
        Spirit... Are Jehovah?











        In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
        <rob95425@y...> wrote:
        >
        > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
        the "heretical
        > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
        >
        > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as the
        > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
        > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the
        > Father??
        > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
        >
        > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
        > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
        > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they
        were
        > the same person?
        >
        > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the same
        > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are
        separate
        > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one is
        > disputing that. Which is it?
        >
        > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could
        come
        > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
        >
        >
        > -Rob
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lasren"
        > <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
        > > Rob
        > >
        > > Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions
        > about
        > > me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
        > > presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.
        > >
        > > "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
        > > 19:13
        > >
        > > I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
        the "heretical
        > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed that
        > > she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.
        > >
        > > If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and
        > condemnatory
        > > approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you on
        > any
        > > subject you care to mention.
        > >
        > > PL
        > >
        > > > From: Robert
        > > > Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:25 pm
        > > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
        > > >
        > > > You know, i've asked similar questions in this group before,
        and
        > get
        > > > pretty similar answers.
        > > > Its clear that you are willing to judge JWs, and myself, and
        > correct
        > > > us where you believe we are wrong, but you avoid correcting
        > anyone
        > > > else when its shown they are wrong. It also shows that
        correcting
        > > > people who you believe are wrong, is not your motive for being
        in
        > > > this group, otherwise you would correct Barb.
        > > > This is similar to Barb's and others claims that they are here
        to
        > > > convert the unbelievers, as they see JWs. Well I have proven
        > this a
        > > > lie a number of times. There are a few people in this group who
        > > > have, on numerous occasions, stated that they don't believe in
        > God.
        > > > In fact they have posted messages refuting the existance of
        God
        > or
        > > > any higher power. Yet Barb has not once tried to convert any of
        > > > them. In fact not one of those here who oppose JWs has tried.
        > > > However, they have praised them when they post some anti-
        Witness
        > > > articel. Now explain to me how someone can claim to be here to
        > > > convert the unbelievers, while ignoring the professed
        > unbelievers in
        > > > this group, and even counting them as brothers/sisters when
        they
        > > > post something against JWs? You may use the old excuse, "Well
        > this
        > > > is a JW group, so im only dealing with JWs" or some such, but
        > where
        > > > in the Bible does it say to only preach to certain people under
        > > > certain circumstances? Where does it say, "Speak not to the
        > Gentile
        > > > when hes among the Jews."?
        > > > As a trinitarian interested in spreading the truth as you know
        > it,
        > > > you should be correcting Barb, but you don't. Obviously its
        > because
        > > > it really doesnt matter to you what she believes. You're both
        > here
        > > > to attack JWs so you're on the same team despite the fact that
        > you
        > > > yourselves believe differently. Either that, or you really
        don't
        > > > understand the trinity doctrine enough to realize shes got it
        > wrong.
        > > > I asked you, "Do you correct all those you find to be wrong,
        or
        > just
        > > > certain people?" Well, as we have just seen it is only select
        few
        > > > who you feel must be corrected, while others can go on there
        > merry
        > > > way, as long as they pass one simple test. Do they hate
        > Witnesses.
        > > >
        > > > -Rob
        > > >
        > > >
      • Robert
        ...
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          >>Where exactly in the bible does it say that the Father is Jehovah?
          <<


          Isa 63:16 YLT "For Thou art our Father, For Abraham hath not known
          us, And Israel doth not acknowledge us, Thou, O Jehovah, art our
          Father, Our redeemer from the age, is Thy name."

          Isa 64:8 YLT "And now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, We are the
          clay, and Thou our Framer, And the work of Thy hand--all of us."

          Joh 6:45 YLT "it is having been written in the prophets, And they
          shall be all taught of God(Jehovah, see Isa 54:13 below); every one
          therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;"

          Isa 54:13 YLT "And all thy sons are taught of Jehovah, And abundant
          is the peace of thy sons."

          -Rob




          --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, rondoggy2000
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > ---Where exactly in the bible does it say that the Father is
          Jehovah?
          > Perhaps that is God's name... and God being Father, Son and Holy
          > Spirit... Are Jehovah?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
          > <rob95425@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
          > the "heretical
          > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
          > >
          > > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as
          the
          > > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
          > > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not
          the
          > > Father??
          > > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
          > >
          > > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
          > > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah &
          Jesus
          > > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they
          > were
          > > the same person?
          > >
          > > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the
          same
          > > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are
          > separate
          > > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one
          is
          > > disputing that. Which is it?
          > >
          > > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could
          > come
          > > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
          > >
          > >
          > > -Rob
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter
          Lasren"
          > > <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
          > > > Rob
          > > >
          > > > Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions
          > > about
          > > > me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
          > > > presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.
          > > >
          > > > "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
          > > > 19:13
          > > >
          > > > I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
          > the "heretical
          > > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed
          that
          > > > she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.
          > > >
          > > > If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and
          > > condemnatory
          > > > approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you
          on
          > > any
          > > > subject you care to mention.
          > > >
          > > > PL
          > > >
          > > > > From: Robert
          > > > > Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:25 pm
          > > > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
          > > > >
          > > > > You know, i've asked similar questions in this group before,
          > and
          > > get
          > > > > pretty similar answers.
          > > > > Its clear that you are willing to judge JWs, and myself, and
          > > correct
          > > > > us where you believe we are wrong, but you avoid correcting
          > > anyone
          > > > > else when its shown they are wrong. It also shows that
          > correcting
          > > > > people who you believe are wrong, is not your motive for
          being
          > in
          > > > > this group, otherwise you would correct Barb.
          > > > > This is similar to Barb's and others claims that they are
          here
          > to
          > > > > convert the unbelievers, as they see JWs. Well I have proven
          > > this a
          > > > > lie a number of times. There are a few people in this group
          who
          > > > > have, on numerous occasions, stated that they don't believe
          in
          > > God.
          > > > > In fact they have posted messages refuting the existance of
          > God
          > > or
          > > > > any higher power. Yet Barb has not once tried to convert any
          of
          > > > > them. In fact not one of those here who oppose JWs has tried.
          > > > > However, they have praised them when they post some anti-
          > Witness
          > > > > articel. Now explain to me how someone can claim to be here
          to
          > > > > convert the unbelievers, while ignoring the professed
          > > unbelievers in
          > > > > this group, and even counting them as brothers/sisters when
          > they
          > > > > post something against JWs? You may use the old
          excuse, "Well
          > > this
          > > > > is a JW group, so im only dealing with JWs" or some such,
          but
          > > where
          > > > > in the Bible does it say to only preach to certain people
          under
          > > > > certain circumstances? Where does it say, "Speak not to the
          > > Gentile
          > > > > when hes among the Jews."?
          > > > > As a trinitarian interested in spreading the truth as you
          know
          > > it,
          > > > > you should be correcting Barb, but you don't. Obviously its
          > > because
          > > > > it really doesnt matter to you what she believes. You're
          both
          > > here
          > > > > to attack JWs so you're on the same team despite the fact
          that
          > > you
          > > > > yourselves believe differently. Either that, or you really
          > don't
          > > > > understand the trinity doctrine enough to realize shes got
          it
          > > wrong.
          > > > > I asked you, "Do you correct all those you find to be wrong,
          > or
          > > just
          > > > > certain people?" Well, as we have just seen it is only
          select
          > few
          > > > > who you feel must be corrected, while others can go on there
          > > merry
          > > > > way, as long as they pass one simple test. Do they hate
          > > Witnesses.
          > > > >
          > > > > -Rob
          > > > >
          > > > >
        • vickijh28
          Dear Rob, Barb saying Jesus is Jehovah is most definately not heretical. If she had said Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit then that would be incorrect,
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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            Dear Rob,

            Barb saying Jesus is Jehovah is most definately not heretical.
            If she had said Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit then that
            would be incorrect, for that I believe is oneness doctrine. The
            Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God, who is Jehovah.

            Take care.
            Vicki




            --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
            <rob95425@y...> wrote:
            >
            > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
            > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
            >
            > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as the
            > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
            > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the
            > Father??
            > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
            >
            > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
            > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
            > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they
            were
            > the same person?
            >
            > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the same
            > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are
            separate
            > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one is
            > disputing that. Which is it?
            >
            > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could come
            > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
            >
            >
            > -Rob
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lasren"
            > <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
            > > Rob
            > >
            > > Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions
            > about
            > > me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
            > > presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.
            > >
            > > "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
            > > 19:13
            > >
            > > I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
            > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed that
            > > she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.
            > >
            > > If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and
            > condemnatory
            > > approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you on
            > any
            > > subject you care to mention.
            > >
            > > PL
            > >
            > > > From: Robert
            > > > Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:25 pm
            > > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
            > > >
            > > > You know, i've asked similar questions in this group before,
            and
            > get
            > > > pretty similar answers.
            > > > Its clear that you are willing to judge JWs, and myself, and
            > correct
            > > > us where you believe we are wrong, but you avoid correcting
            > anyone
            > > > else when its shown they are wrong. It also shows that
            correcting
            > > > people who you believe are wrong, is not your motive for being
            in
            > > > this group, otherwise you would correct Barb.
            > > > This is similar to Barb's and others claims that they are here
            to
            > > > convert the unbelievers, as they see JWs. Well I have proven
            > this a
            > > > lie a number of times. There are a few people in this group who
            > > > have, on numerous occasions, stated that they don't believe in
            > God.
            > > > In fact they have posted messages refuting the existance of God
            > or
            > > > any higher power. Yet Barb has not once tried to convert any of
            > > > them. In fact not one of those here who oppose JWs has tried.
            > > > However, they have praised them when they post some anti-Witness
            > > > articel. Now explain to me how someone can claim to be here to
            > > > convert the unbelievers, while ignoring the professed
            > unbelievers in
            > > > this group, and even counting them as brothers/sisters when they
            > > > post something against JWs? You may use the old excuse, "Well
            > this
            > > > is a JW group, so im only dealing with JWs" or some such, but
            > where
            > > > in the Bible does it say to only preach to certain people under
            > > > certain circumstances? Where does it say, "Speak not to the
            > Gentile
            > > > when hes among the Jews."?
            > > > As a trinitarian interested in spreading the truth as you know
            > it,
            > > > you should be correcting Barb, but you don't. Obviously its
            > because
            > > > it really doesnt matter to you what she believes. You're both
            > here
            > > > to attack JWs so you're on the same team despite the fact that
            > you
            > > > yourselves believe differently. Either that, or you really don't
            > > > understand the trinity doctrine enough to realize shes got it
            > wrong.
            > > > I asked you, "Do you correct all those you find to be wrong, or
            > just
            > > > certain people?" Well, as we have just seen it is only select
            few
            > > > who you feel must be corrected, while others can go on there
            > merry
            > > > way, as long as they pass one simple test. Do they hate
            > Witnesses.
            > > >
            > > > -Rob
            > > >
            > > >
          • Robert
            ... she had said Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit then that would be incorrect, for that I believe is oneness doctrine. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >>Barb saying Jesus is Jehovah is most definately not heretical. If
              she had said Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit then that would
              be incorrect, for that I believe is oneness doctrine. The Father,
              Son and Holy Spirit are the one God, who is Jehovah.<<

              Isa 63:16 YLT "For Thou art our Father, For Abraham hath not known
              us, And Israel doth not acknowledge us, Thou, O Jehovah, art our
              Father, Our redeemer from the age, is Thy name."

              Isa 64:8 YLT "And now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, We are the
              clay, and Thou our Framer, And the work of Thy hand--all of us."

              Joh 6:45 YLT "it is having been written in the prophets, And they
              shall be all taught of God(Jehovah, see Isa 54:13 below); every one
              therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;"

              Isa 54:13 YLT "And all thy sons are taught of Jehovah, And abundant
              is the peace of thy sons."

              Barb says Jesus is Jehovah. The Bible says the Father is Jehovah.
              Barb's statement says Jesus is the Father.

              Now if you can show me any scriptures that say, "O Jehovah, thou art
              the Son", or "O Jehovah, thou art the Holy Spirit", or "O Jehovah,
              thou art one God who manifests Himself as three distinct,
              simultaneous persons" you might have a point.

              -Rob





              --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "vickijh28"
              <vickijh28@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Rob,
              >
              > Barb saying Jesus is Jehovah is most definately not heretical.
              > If she had said Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit then that
              > would be incorrect, for that I believe is oneness doctrine. The
              > Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God, who is Jehovah.
              >
              > Take care.
              > Vicki
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Robert"
              > <rob95425@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
              the "heretical
              > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
              > >
              > > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as
              the
              > > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
              > > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not
              the
              > > Father??
              > > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
              > >
              > > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
              > > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah &
              Jesus
              > > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they
              > were
              > > the same person?
              > >
              > > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the
              same
              > > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are
              > separate
              > > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one
              is
              > > disputing that. Which is it?
              > >
              > > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could
              come
              > > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
              > >
              > >
              > > -Rob
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter
              Lasren"
              > > <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
              > > > Rob
              > > >
              > > > Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions
              > > about
              > > > me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
              > > > presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.
              > > >
              > > > "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
              > > > 19:13
              > > >
              > > > I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
              the "heretical
              > > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed
              that
              > > > she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.
              > > >
              > > > If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and
              > > condemnatory
              > > > approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you
              on
              > > any
              > > > subject you care to mention.
              > > >
              > > > PL
              > > >
              > > > > From: Robert
              > > > > Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:25 pm
              > > > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
              > > > >
              > > > > You know, i've asked similar questions in this group before,
              > and
              > > get
              > > > > pretty similar answers.
              > > > > Its clear that you are willing to judge JWs, and myself, and
              > > correct
              > > > > us where you believe we are wrong, but you avoid correcting
              > > anyone
              > > > > else when its shown they are wrong. It also shows that
              > correcting
              > > > > people who you believe are wrong, is not your motive for
              being
              > in
              > > > > this group, otherwise you would correct Barb.
              > > > > This is similar to Barb's and others claims that they are
              here
              > to
              > > > > convert the unbelievers, as they see JWs. Well I have proven
              > > this a
              > > > > lie a number of times. There are a few people in this group
              who
              > > > > have, on numerous occasions, stated that they don't believe
              in
              > > God.
              > > > > In fact they have posted messages refuting the existance of
              God
              > > or
              > > > > any higher power. Yet Barb has not once tried to convert any
              of
              > > > > them. In fact not one of those here who oppose JWs has tried.
              > > > > However, they have praised them when they post some anti-
              Witness
              > > > > articel. Now explain to me how someone can claim to be here
              to
              > > > > convert the unbelievers, while ignoring the professed
              > > unbelievers in
              > > > > this group, and even counting them as brothers/sisters when
              they
              > > > > post something against JWs? You may use the old
              excuse, "Well
              > > this
              > > > > is a JW group, so im only dealing with JWs" or some such,
              but
              > > where
              > > > > in the Bible does it say to only preach to certain people
              under
              > > > > certain circumstances? Where does it say, "Speak not to the
              > > Gentile
              > > > > when hes among the Jews."?
              > > > > As a trinitarian interested in spreading the truth as you
              know
              > > it,
              > > > > you should be correcting Barb, but you don't. Obviously its
              > > because
              > > > > it really doesnt matter to you what she believes. You're
              both
              > > here
              > > > > to attack JWs so you're on the same team despite the fact
              that
              > > you
              > > > > yourselves believe differently. Either that, or you really
              don't
              > > > > understand the trinity doctrine enough to realize shes got
              it
              > > wrong.
              > > > > I asked you, "Do you correct all those you find to be wrong,
              or
              > > just
              > > > > certain people?" Well, as we have just seen it is only
              select
              > few
              > > > > who you feel must be corrected, while others can go on there
              > > merry
              > > > > way, as long as they pass one simple test. Do they hate
              > > Witnesses.
              > > > >
              > > > > -Rob
              > > > >
              > > > >
            • Peter Lasren
              Rob Your post contains several wrong assumptions which I will be happy to explain to both you and your wife if you will apologize to Jesus and Barb for
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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                Rob

                Your post contains several wrong assumptions which I will be happy to
                explain to both you and your wife if you will apologize to Jesus and
                Barb for (jokingly?) condemning Barb to hell and adopt a less
                provocative, adversarial and condemnatory approach to discussion.

                If you are unable to do this, I will follow the Apostle Paul's advice
                to avoid contending with people who do not consent to wholesome words
                but are instead obsessed with disputes and arguments which cause
                strife, reviling, suspicions, and useless wranglings. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

                Do we have a deal? Or not?

                PL

                > From: Robert
                > Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 12:18 pm
                > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
                >
                > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
                > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
                >
                > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as the
                > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
                > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the
                > Father??
                > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
                >
                > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
                > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
                > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they were
                > the same person?
                >
                > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the same
                > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are separate
                > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one is
                > disputing that. Which is it?
                >
                > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could come
                > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
                >
                >
                > -Rob
                >
                >
              • Robert
                If you have no answer just say so. BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling JWs fools in post #20249 But I say unto you, That whosoever
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  If you have no answer just say so.

                  BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                  JWs "fools" in post #20249

                  "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
                  without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
                  shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
                  but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell
                  fire." (Mat 5:22 KJV)

                  You did correct her, didn't you?

                  -Rob



                  --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lasren"
                  <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
                  > Rob
                  >
                  > Your post contains several wrong assumptions which I will be happy
                  to
                  > explain to both you and your wife if you will apologize to Jesus
                  and
                  > Barb for (jokingly?) condemning Barb to hell and adopt a less
                  > provocative, adversarial and condemnatory approach to discussion.
                  >
                  > If you are unable to do this, I will follow the Apostle Paul's
                  advice
                  > to avoid contending with people who do not consent to wholesome
                  words
                  > but are instead obsessed with disputes and arguments which cause
                  > strife, reviling, suspicions, and useless wranglings. 1 Timothy
                  6:3-5
                  >
                  > Do we have a deal? Or not?
                  >
                  > PL
                  >
                  > > From: Robert
                  > > Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 12:18 pm
                  > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
                  > >
                  > > >>I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches
                  the "heretical
                  > > oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)"<<
                  > >
                  > > So you don't believe that her refering to Jehovah and Jesus as
                  the
                  > > same person is not heretical despite the fact that the trinity
                  > > doctrine states the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the
                  > > Father??
                  > > Her saying Jesus IS Jehovah is not heretical?
                  > >
                  > > Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
                  > > Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
                  > > referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they
                  were
                  > > the same person?
                  > >
                  > > As I asked her, either she believes Jesus and Jehovah are the
                  same
                  > > person, which makes her a heretic, or she believes they are
                  separate
                  > > persons, which makes her little list irrelevent, because no one
                  is
                  > > disputing that. Which is it?
                  > >
                  > > I just had my wife read her post, and the only thing she could
                  come
                  > > up with is Barbs trying to show their the same person.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -Rob
                  > >
                  > >
                • Peter Lasren
                  Rob ... That comment was unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic. Yes, I do have an answer. And, as I said, you can have it just as soon as you apologize to
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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                    Rob

                    > If you have no answer just say so.

                    That comment was unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic.

                    Yes, I do have an answer. And, as I said, you can have it just as
                    soon as you apologize to Jesus and Barb for condemning Barb to hell
                    and agree to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and condemnatory
                    approach to discussion.

                    > BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                    > JWs "fools" in post #20249
                    >
                    > You did correct her, didn't you?

                    Again, these comments are unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic.

                    I may be wrong, because it can be difficult sometimes to follow a
                    thread, but I think it might have been PD in message 20205 who first
                    said "I'm sure they (historians and commentators?) would thank
                    you greatly for explaining to them that absolutely nothing out of the
                    ordinary happened and only a fool would suggest that it had."
                    (brackets PL)

                    I may be wrong, but I think Barb was quoting PD's comment in
                    message 20249.

                    Even if I am wrong, and Barb was to apologize for calling
                    JWs "fools", will you respond by apologizing to Jesus and Barb for
                    condemning Barb to hell and agree to adopt a less provocative,
                    adversarial, condemnatory and sarcastic approach to discussion?

                    If you do, I would be pleased to engage with you on any subject you
                    care to mention and provide as many answers as you wish.

                    All you have to do is treat other human beings with respect.

                    Now do we have a deal? Or is my request too unreasonable?

                    This is my final offer. Fail to take it up and I will have no further
                    communication with you.

                    PL

                    > From: Robert
                    > Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:02 pm
                    > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
                    >
                    > If you have no answer just say so.
                    >
                    > BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                    > JWs "fools" in post #20249
                    >
                    > "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
                    > without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
                    > shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
                    > but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell
                    > fire." (Mat 5:22 KJV)
                    >
                    > You did correct her, didn't you?
                    >
                    > -Rob
                    >
                  • cwsohio
                    Yes you are wrong: I was sure JW s would thank you Rick greatly for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      <<"I may be wrong, but I think Barb was quoting PD's comment in
                      message 20249.">>

                      Yes you are wrong:

                      "I was sure JW's would thank you Rick greatly for explaining to them
                      that absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened and only a fool
                      would suggest that Jesus Christ had returned invisibly in 1914." Barb-
                      Post 20249


                      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lasren"
                      <peterlasren@b...> wrote:
                      > Rob
                      >
                      > > If you have no answer just say so.
                      >
                      > That comment was unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic.
                      >
                      > Yes, I do have an answer. And, as I said, you can have it just as
                      > soon as you apologize to Jesus and Barb for condemning Barb to hell
                      > and agree to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and condemnatory
                      > approach to discussion.
                      >
                      > > BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                      > > JWs "fools" in post #20249
                      > >
                      > > You did correct her, didn't you?
                      >
                      > Again, these comments are unnecessarily provocative and sarcastic.
                      >
                      > I may be wrong, because it can be difficult sometimes to follow a
                      > thread, but I think it might have been PD in message 20205 who
                      first
                      > said "I'm sure they (historians and commentators?) would thank
                      > you greatly for explaining to them that absolutely nothing out of
                      the
                      > ordinary happened and only a fool would suggest that it had."
                      > (brackets PL)
                      >
                      > I may be wrong, but I think Barb was quoting PD's comment in
                      > message 20249.
                      >
                      > Even if I am wrong, and Barb was to apologize for calling
                      > JWs "fools", will you respond by apologizing to Jesus and Barb for
                      > condemning Barb to hell and agree to adopt a less provocative,
                      > adversarial, condemnatory and sarcastic approach to discussion?
                      >
                      > If you do, I would be pleased to engage with you on any subject you
                      > care to mention and provide as many answers as you wish.
                      >
                      > All you have to do is treat other human beings with respect.
                      >
                      > Now do we have a deal? Or is my request too unreasonable?
                      >
                      > This is my final offer. Fail to take it up and I will have no
                      further
                      > communication with you.
                      >
                      > PL
                      >
                      > > From: Robert
                      > > Date: Fri Oct 1, 2004 2:02 pm
                      > > Subject: Re: What a fool I am
                      > >
                      > > If you have no answer just say so.
                      > >
                      > > BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                      > > JWs "fools" in post #20249
                      > >
                      > > "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
                      > > without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
                      > > shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
                      > > but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell
                      > > fire." (Mat 5:22 KJV)
                      > >
                      > > You did correct her, didn't you?
                      > >
                      > > -Rob
                      > >
                    • Sinclair Stable
                      From: Robert ... Leave the support groups Barb. The Bible says trust in God, NOT support groups. Support groups cant save you Barb. Now tell me Barb, do you
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 1, 2004
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                        From: Robert
                        >>This was sent to our support group.<<

                        Leave the support groups Barb. The Bible says trust in God, NOT
                        support groups. Support groups cant save you Barb.

                        Now tell me Barb, do you really not understand the concept of a
                        representative? How someone could be refered to as another person
                        without them actually being that person? Or are you just acting
                        stupid for our entertainment?

                        Also, your posts seems to try and prove, not that Jehovah and Jesus
                        are the same God, but that they are the same person. You do
                        understand that that is heretical oneness doctrine (Sabellianism),
                        goes against established and approved trinity doctrine, and you will
                        burn in hell for all eternity for preaching, don't you??

                        ==================


                        Rob,
                        I do trust in Abba Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
                        I enjoy "support groups" In Christ, friendly fellowship In Christ
                        is such a blessing in these days. <g>


                        >>>>>Now tell me Barb, do you really not understand the concept of
                        a representative?


                        eg of a concept of a representative = I'm an artist, and make a sculpture
                        of my representation of something, but its not really that something, it is
                        my rendition of it. -People can "make" anything represent something,
                        doesn't make it TRUE. Its all in how you "paint it".



                        >>>>>How someone could be refered to as another person
                        without them actually being that person? <<<<<<


                        My reply to your question with the biblical concept...
                        How someone [God] could be refered to as another person
                        [Father Son and Holy Spirit] with them actually being that person,
                        _the One God_.

                        *Yes, I understand the biblical concept, I believe it, and have
                        great faith In Him. <g>

                        Like the NWT Jehovah that supped with Abraham and Moses face to face...
                        Exodus 33:11 Jehovah you can see face to face and live, Exodus 33:19-20
                        Jehovah if you looked at His face you will die.
                        See NWT Exodus 24:10, 34:5-6. Gen ch 18. Gen 19:24 Jehovah on the
                        earth made it rain sulphur and fire from the Jehovah in the heaven.
                        Gen 32:28-30. etc...

                        "How someone could be refered to as another person" yet be the SAME...
                        ***_when he reveals himself to us_.***

                        God reveals Himself to whom He chooses also, but all you
                        have to do is repent to Christ for your sins and His dieing for you
                        in your place, humbly and sincerely ask and He will come unto you.

                        Mat 11:27
                        All things are delivered unto me of my Father:
                        and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
                        neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,
                        and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
                        Luk 10:22
                        All things are delivered to me of my Father:
                        and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father;
                        and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom
                        the Son will reveal [him].
                        Gal 1:16
                        To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among
                        the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

                        ==


                        >>>>Also, your posts seems to try and prove, not that Jehovah and Jesus
                        are the same God, but that they are the same person. You do
                        understand that that is heretical oneness doctrine (Sabellianism),
                        goes against established and approved trinity doctrine, and you will
                        burn in hell for all eternity for preaching, don't you??<<<<


                        let me be clear please:
                        I have absolutely no belief in "oneness doctrine".
                        **I do not believe that Jesus Christ is three within Himself.**
                        I'm sorry, but your take on the original email was not my intent,
                        nor what you spell out above is my belief or Christian faith.


                        >>>and you will burn in hell for all eternity for preaching, don't you??<<<<

                        As to judgement, I have already died in Christ. I have given my life
                        over to Him to do as He pleases. For He is the author and finisher
                        of me and my faith. I'm judged by no person in His eyes, however,
                        I know I will be tried by many, as it should be. I rest in His arms as
                        He alone holds me. My Father, gave me over to His Son, thus I follow
                        Him. Christ gives me eternal life; and promises I shall never perish,
                        neither shall any one pluck me out of Their Hands. He promises
                        (John 10:27-30) I believe my Lord. \o/ And this is not only for me,
                        it is for as many as, whosoever believe in Him John 1:12-13 born of God
                        (John 3:3-8). This security can also be yours Rob.
                        He stands at the door and knocks
                        Rev 3:20
                        Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
                        if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
                        I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and
                        he with me. (John 14:21-23)

                        =


                        Rob, just to make it perfectly clear what my faith is, I must
                        set the record for I have been put on trial by you, thus I
                        will confess ...

                        I believe in _One God_ -yes-, and this One God has manifest
                        and revealed Himself three ways in the Scriptures. Therefore,
                        I believe in -The One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit-

                        Only one God:
                        The Lord our God is one Lord -Deu 6:4
                        There is no other god with Me, -Deu 32:39
                        I am the only one in the heaven -Deu 32:39
                        No God was formed before me or after me -Isa 43:10
                        There is no other God -Isa 44:6

                        Each is called God:
                        Father -Eph 4:6, John 6:27
                        Son -Hbr 1:8, Tts 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28-29, 1Jo 5:20
                        Holy Spirit -Act 5:3-4

                        Each is described as creator:
                        Father -Isa 44:24
                        Son -John 1:1-3
                        Holy Spirit -Job 33:4; 26:13

                        Each is described as eternal:
                        Father -Psa 93:2
                        Son -Mic 5:2; Hbr 1:8
                        Holy Spirit -Hbr 9:14

                        Each is described as inspired:
                        Father -2Ti 3:16
                        Son -1Pe 1:10-11
                        Holy Spirit -2Pe 1:21

                        Each is described as omnipresent:
                        Father -Jer 23:24
                        Son -Matt 28:20
                        Holy Spirit -Psa 139:7-10

                        Each is described as omiscient:
                        Father -Jer 17:10
                        Son -John 2:24
                        Holy Spirit -1Cr 2:10-12

                        Each is described as omnipotent:
                        Father -Matt 19:26
                        Son -Hbr 1:3
                        Holy Spirit -Rom 15:19

                        Each is described as Holy:
                        Father -Hab 1:12
                        Son -Act 3:14
                        Holy Spirit -John 14:26

                        Each is described as resurrecting Jesus Christ:
                        Father raised Jesus -1Th 1:10
                        Son raised Himself -John 2:19-21
                        Holy Spirit raised Jesus -Rom 8:11

                        Each is described as Truth:
                        Father -1Th 1:9
                        Son -John 14:6
                        Holy Spirit -Jhn 14:17

                        Each is described as sanctifying the believer:
                        Father -John 10:29
                        Son -Hbr 2:11
                        Holy Spirit -1Cr 6:11

                        Each is described as preserving the believer unto salvation:
                        Father -John 10:29
                        Son -John 10:28
                        Holy Spirit -Eph 4:30

                        Each is described being an indwelling presence inside the believer:
                        Father -Eph 4:6, 2Cr 6:16, John 14:23
                        Son -Col 1:27, John 14:20-23
                        Holy Spirit -1Cr 6:19, John 14:17

                        Each is described as leading believers:
                        Father -Deu 32:12
                        Son -1Cr 10:1-4
                        Holy Spirit -Isa 63:11-14

                        Each draws people unto themselves:
                        Father -John 6:44
                        Son -1Cr 12:3
                        Holy Spirit -John 12:32

                        Scriptures "PRESENT" Jesus as "Jehovah" [Yahweh] of the Old Testament:
                        In reference to a prepared way:
                        Yahweh; Clear up the pathway of Yahweh -Isa 40:3
                        Jesus; Prepare ye the way of the Lord -Matt 3:3

                        In reference to their title:
                        Yahweh; I AM (ehyeh in Hebrew) is Yahweh -Exd 3:14
                        Jesus; I AM (ego-eimi in Greek) is Jesus -John 18:5-8, 8:58

                        Every one is to worship the Father and the Son:
                        Yahweh; Every knee will bow (to Yahweh) -Isa 45:23
                        Jesus; At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow -Phl 2:10
                        Jesus; all angels worship Jesus -Hbr ch 1 <I love reading the entire
                        chapter>

                        Every one is to honour the Father and the Son equally:
                        John 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour
                        the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father
                        which hath sent him.


                        Who is "The First and The Last"?
                        Jehovah is First and Last -Isa 44:6
                        Jesus is First and Last -Rev 1:17-18

                        Who is coming?
                        Jehovah is coming and is Alpha and Omega (NWT) -Rev 1:8
                        Jesus is coming and is Alpha and Omega -Rev 22:12-16

                        NOTE: ~Alpha and Omega, First and Last
                        They mean the same thing.
                        Alpha = First AND Omega = Last!
                        Alpha First and Omega Last.

                        BEHOLD
                        Rev 1:17-18
                        And when I saw him [Jesus Christ], I fell at his feet as dead.
                        And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,
                        Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:
                        I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold,
                        I am alive for evermore, Amen;
                        and have the keys of hell and of death.

                        *Did God the Father EVER die, and raise from the dead?* = No!
                        God the Father's Son did. Jesus Christ, "God the Son".

                        ==

                        *Only one God:
                        The Lord our God is one Lord -Deu 6:4
                        There is no other god with Me, -Deu 32:39

                        Thus, the NWT John 1:1"a god" WITH the WT doctrine that
                        Christ is an angel = creature angel worship. all who believe
                        the "a god" of the WT are polytheists. BIG God + little "a god".

                        ***For the WORD in John 1:1 is Christ Jesus and scripture say
                        we are to worship the Son of God Jesus Christ. Christ received
                        worship and did not rebuke them for it like an angel "of God" would.
                        Christ accepted it.

                        Jesus accepted worship from Thomas -John 20:28
                        All angels told to worship Jesus -Hbr 1:6
                        Wise men worshipped Him -Matt 2:11
                        Leper worshipped Jesus -Matt 8:2
                        Ruler bowed to Jesus -Matt 9:18
                        Blind man worshipped Jesus -John 9:38
                        Woman worshipped Him -Matt 15:25
                        Mary Magdalene worshipped Him -Matt 28:9
                        Disciples worshipped Him -Matt 28:17

                        note about the New World Translation of the WTBTS:
                        Greek "proskuneo" is translated "worship" in reference to Jehovah
                        twenty-two times in the NWT. The same word when used with reference
                        to Jesus, the NWT translation committee translated it as obeisance,
                        reverence, and homage. This distorts the fact that actual worship was
                        acknowledged and accepted by Jesus Christ.
                        http://www.carm.org/jw/nwt_proskuneo.htm

                        Read the NWT on-line here:
                        http://www.watchtower.org/bible/


                        In Christ,
                        barb
                        http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm
                      • Sinclair Stable
                        On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 Peter Lasren wrote: Rob Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions about me, but I will not be correcting them. It is
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 24, 2004
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                          On Fri, 01 Oct 2004
                          Peter Lasren wrote:

                          Rob

                          Your post contains several wrong assumptions and presumptions about
                          me, but I will not be correcting them. It is for you to stop
                          presuming, not for me to untangle your conjecture.

                          "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins" Psalm
                          19:13

                          I do not believe for one second that Barb preaches the "heretical
                          oneness doctrine (Sabellianism)". You have wrongly presumed that
                          she does. Therefore I see no need for anyone to correct her.

                          If you were to adopt a less provocative, adversarial and condemnatory
                          approach to discussion, I would be pleased to engage with you on any
                          subject you care to mention.

                          PL
                          -----------------

                          Clear day brother Peter <g>
                          been away from the list for some weeks, and behind 31 digests.
                          Going to _try_ and go through them today. I wish to thank you
                          for your post on my behalf.

                          Just to clarify for Rob n-all,
                          I believe the Word of God and His revelation to us of who God is.
                          The doctrine of 3 person's in 1 God (tri-unity)

                          God is NOT triplex three different god's Re: 1+1+1 = 3
                          (WTBTS; the first god Jehovah that had to "create wisdom and truth"
                          because he did not always have it eternal, the second god a creature
                          Jhn1:1 "a god", and the third an impersonal force much like electricity)

                          Nor is it oneness 3-1-1= 1 (Father Son Holy Spirit are reduced into Jesus)


                          ***I believe God IS triune Re: 1x1x1 = 1 Just like the bible teaches.
                          Tri-unity of God is implied in Old Testament (Gen1:26) & revealed in
                          the light of the New Testament (Matt3:16-17).

                          I confess; within the nature of the One God there are 3 persons, the Father
                          Son and Holy Spirit, and these three share the same nature and attributes.
                          In effect the three person's are the one God. Very simply, that within Gods
                          unity and nature we can discern three persons, as far as people can
                          understand
                          person's. And these three person's are in fact, the One God.

                          When the inspired Word the Bible shows that there are 3 divine persons
                          and the Word tells us that the 3 person's are ALL called God,
                          Father -Eph 4:6, John 6:27 Son -Hbr 1:8, Tts 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28-29,
                          1Jo 5:20 Holy Spirit -Act 5:3-4 <etc...>. And the Word tells us that
                          there
                          is ONLY One God -Deu 6:4, Deu 32:39, Isa 43:10, Isa 44:6.
                          Then I'm driven to only one possible conclusion about God ...
                          ***things equal to the same thing are equal to each other,
                          and the three person's are the ONE and ONLY True God. Amen \o/

                          In Christ,
                          barb
                        • Sinclair Stable
                          ... Barb was trying to make with her, 38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus referred to using the same phrases. post, if not to prove they were the same
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 24, 2004
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                            Rob wrote to Peter L. :
                            >>>>Will you do me a small favor? Could you explain to us what point
                            Barb was trying to make with her, "38 examples of Jehovah & Jesus
                            referred to using the same phrases." post, if not to prove they were
                            the same person?<<<<<<


                            Rob, I sent that to this list when in the large list of xJW In Christ
                            were discussing the "nature" of the Son of God. We were discussing
                            how it is impossible that Christ be the angel michael as the WTBTS
                            tried to teach us. It was to show that Christ the Son of God and
                            God the Father have the same nature. That it is impossible that
                            Jesus ever was the angel michael.

                            In Christ,
                            barb




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sinclair Stable
                            ... Reply from Robert rob95425@yahoo.com ... known us, And Israel doth not acknowledge us, Thou, O Jehovah, art our Father, Our redeemer from the age, is Thy
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 24, 2004
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                              question:
                              >>Where exactly in the bible does it say that the Father is Jehovah?<<


                              Reply from "Robert" rob95425@...
                              >>>>>Isa 63:16 YLT "For Thou art our Father, For Abraham hath not
                              known us, And Israel doth not acknowledge us, Thou, O Jehovah, art our
                              Father, Our redeemer from the age, is Thy name." <<<<<<<<



                              thou, O LORD, [art] our father, our redeemer; thy name [is] from
                              everlasting.

                              (I found a study on the "Holy One of Israel and the LORD of hosts"
                              YOUR redeemer was very beneficial and enlightening with this verse.)

                              Isa 43:14
                              Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; ...
                              Isa 44:6
                              Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD
                              of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no
                              God.
                              (yet the fist and last is God the Father, and Jesus Christ Rev ch1)
                              Isa 54:5
                              For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name;
                              and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth
                              shall he be called.

                              (my husband is my maker John 1:3, Christ Jesus and I'm a member of His
                              bride, heir to the kingdom, to the Glory of Abba, Father -Isa 49:18, 61:10,
                              Rom 8:15-17, Rev 19:7-8)

                              1Peter 1:18-21
                              Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things,
                              [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition
                              from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb
                              without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before
                              the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
                              Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and
                              gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be IN God.



                              >>>>>Isa 64:8 YLT "And now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, We are
                              the clay, and Thou our Framer, And the work of Thy hand--all of us."<<<<<


                              Isa 44:24
                              Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from
                              the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth
                              forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

                              -and he that formed thee from the womb...stretcheth forth the
                              heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF

                              John 1:3
                              All things were made by him (Jesus Christ);
                              and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                              Eph 3:9
                              And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery,
                              which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who
                              created all things by Jesus Christ:
                              Col 1:16-17
                              For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are
                              in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions,
                              or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
                              And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
                              (there is no [other] in the text)

                              (Isa 44:24 said ALONE, BY MYSELF, yet Christ Jesus is the creator.
                              this reveals co-eternal with the Father. In the beginning God <plural>
                              'elohiym strongs 0430 In the beginning <source origin> God created
                              the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:1)



                              >>>>>>>>Joh 6:45 YLT "it is having been written in the prophets, And
                              they shall be all taught of God(Jehovah, see Isa 54:13 below); every one
                              therefore who heard from the Father, and learned, cometh to me;" <<<<


                              Shall all be taught of God if you come to Christ Jesus.
                              Have you "Cometh unto" Jesus Christ yet?

                              "The scriptures" are the testimony of Christ, God's plan of redemption.
                              It is written they shall be TAUGHT of/by God. Do you have Jesus Christ
                              as your personal intimate teacher? Do you have a "direct line of
                              communication to God in Christ Jesus? This is for "EVERY ONE"
                              as Jesus Christ said in John 6:45.

                              <how pompus and lordly-Popely of the WT to say that ONLY the slaves have
                              this>

                              This is not just for a small group of 144,000. The WT is not God's sole
                              channell on earth to God. They are lieing, they do not "get it" never "had
                              it".
                              If they did, they would tell EVERYONE to forsake the "wtbts slave" do not
                              listen to us, do as God said, do not trust the wt slave,---> GO TO JESUS
                              CHRST.

                              The wtbts slave does not say that. They say -come to the teachings of the
                              slave to receive the things of God. Indeed Christ Jesus fortold of the
                              slaves
                              to the WT, by their fruits they are the theives and robbers - evil hirelings
                              Christ spoke of in John chapter 10. It is so obvious.

                              Jesus Christ came so the sheep may have life and have it more abundantly.
                              He is the Good Shepherd, the door you enter unto salvation, our Lord
                              Jesus Christ is now calling, he laid down his life for the sheep. The wtbts
                              was not prophsey of the Messiah fullfilled, they did not die for people,
                              there blood is not the atonement for salvation. They are all presumptious
                              men electing themselves between people and God. Amazing JWs actually
                              believe them. The wtbts is NOT the shepherd and the sheep do not belong
                              to these wt men find who these men are here:
                              http://www.freeminds.org/gbfiles.htm

                              Rob, your not a JW, yet you seem to agree with their theology.
                              How do you reconcile the slaves teaching that not every one
                              can have the anointing heir inheritance with Christ that
                              goes hand in hand with indwelling Holy Spirit of God?
                              When the Word said EVERYONE MUST come to Him to be taught,
                              and THAT anointing IS how everyone is taught from God.

                              Rob, is the "slave" the sole channel of communication on earth to
                              God, the only ones with a direct line of communication to God with
                              the "anointing"? Or is WTBTS organization an org of men teaching
                              'a way' that seems right unto men yet it is not of God? Because THAT
                              is what scriptures conclude. How can ANYONE with the "Truth" who
                              is Christ Jesus agree with the WT organization? _I sure can't_ ....
                              Pro 14:12
                              There is a way which seemeth right unto a man,
                              but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
                              Pro 16:25
                              There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
                              but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


                              John 6:45
                              "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
                              Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father,
                              cometh unto Me."

                              ***every one therefore who heard from the Father, and learned,
                              cometh to me Jesus Christ;" Amen \o/

                              taught of God:

                              Jer 31:33-34
                              But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
                              After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
                              and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my
                              people.
                              And THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOR, and
                              every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me,
                              from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will
                              forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


                              >>>>>>>Isa 54:13 YLT "And all thy sons are taught of Jehovah,
                              And abundant is the peace of thy sons."
                              -Rob <<<<<<<<<


                              Amen,
                              and following your scriptures it is clear that Christ Jesus and the Father
                              (if you want to call Him Jehovah a traditional name) are the same nature.

                              So Jehovah Witnesses, why do you "come to the wtbts slaves"
                              and not the one and only one that will teach you about God.
                              Why do you let the slaves stick themselves between you and God
                              and go AGAINST His plan of salvation and follow ignorant men?

                              *God promises: "THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN
                              HIS NEIGHBOR, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD:
                              for they shall all know me" ...
                              *Jesus Christ fulfills: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be
                              all
                              taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned
                              of the Father, cometh unto Me." (Hbr 8:11-12)

                              Sad that 6 million people allow an orgainization to come between
                              themselves and God. Do not listen to Christ but they listen to the slaves
                              when they tell them they _cannot have the "anointing"_.

                              YOU can be heirs with Christ Jesus as God promises (Rom 8:17, Gal 3:29,
                              Tts 3:7, Hbr 6:13-20, James 2:5, 1Pet 3:7). If you would only go to Jesus
                              Christ and realize yourself can have a "direct line of communication to
                              God."
                              And can become a child of God, And if children, then heirs; heirs of God,
                              and joint-heirs with Christ. Amen \o/

                              The slaves to the wtbts want to get in your way, they want to get between
                              the flock and God.

                              Good news, have no fear, they are NOT God, they are little mistake filled
                              men.
                              Just kick the slaves of mans org OUT, pray to Christ Jesus call on His name
                              and just as God promised HE will be your personal independant one-on-one
                              teacher.

                              I did, and He blessed me for it, receive the Holy Spirit anointing. \o/
                              1John 2:27
                              But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
                              and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing
                              teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it
                              hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

                              Billions on Billions are blessed abiding in Him Amen \o/

                              John 17:1-3
                              These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,
                              Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify
                              thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
                              eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal,
                              that they might KNOW THEE the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
                              whom thou hast sent.

                              In Christ,
                              barb
                              Psa 68:3-6
                              John 8:36
                              John 4:10-11, 7:38
                            • Sinclair Stable
                              Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:02:12 -0000 From: Robert If you have no answer just say so. BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 24, 2004
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                                Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:02:12 -0000
                                From: "Robert" <rob95425@...>

                                If you have no answer just say so.

                                BTW, I missed where you asked Barb to apologize for calling
                                JWs "fools" in post #20249

                                "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
                                without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever
                                shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council:
                                but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell
                                fire." (Mat 5:22 KJV)

                                You did correct her, didn't you?

                                -Rob
                                ======================



                                I wrote in post #20249:
                                "I was sure JW's would thank you Rick greatly for explaining to them that
                                absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened and only a fool would
                                suggest that Jesus Christ had returned invisibly in 1914. Shall we let the
                                F&DS of the WT start re-writing all their history books again now. We
                                don't want people to read them and think there might be / of been something
                                to what those JWs say. Because Jesus Christ Himself said _there isn't_."


                                Indeed I called them fools... and I will give more as to why they are:

                                "only a fool would suggest that Jesus Christ had returned invisibly in
                                1914".
                                Christ Himself said if anyone said he returned secretly in the inner
                                chambers
                                inner rooms to a few ...... "Do not believe it".

                                That is exactly what the 1914 WT doctrine is.
                                Christ Jesus said "Do not believe it"

                                Who should you suggest I believe, the mistaken foolish men of the WT,
                                or the Word of God Jesus Christ Himself?

                                A short list of 6 million throughout the history of the Christian faith
                                believe the preaching men of the WT OVER Jesus Christ my Lord.
                                I will not be so foolish. Read Matt ch 24 in context, this is the Word of
                                God,
                                the WTBTS is NOT the Word of God, no matter how much they wish it.


                                On the discernment of "biblical fools by their fruits"....
                                I'm in good company with my brother, Apostle Paul;
                                Gal 3:1-4
                                O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
                                the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
                                crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the
                                Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so
                                foolish?
                                having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
                                Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

                                The WT closed up God's promise of the "anointing" in 1935. What foolish
                                men working against Almighty God and shutting up the heavenly hope to their
                                adherants. Woe to them if they remain preaching the WT hopeless gospel.
                                Only a "fool" would shut up the kingdom of heaven to those seeking God.

                                My Lord said the kingdom of heaven is for all the children of God, indeed a
                                great multitude that no one can number. The slaves to the WT are modern
                                day scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. "woe unto you, scribes and
                                Pharisees,
                                hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye
                                neither
                                go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in."
                                (Matt ch 23).

                                2004 years since the resurrection of Christ, the WT would have us
                                think that only 144,000 Christians in Christ were saved with the
                                "heavenly calling". This is utterly false and absolute nonsense. The
                                slaves have shown partiality and respect to some, exulting 144,000
                                and themselves over their "domestics" thus they have transgressed
                                the law; love thy neighbor as thyself. They wish to keep that good
                                blessed anointing away from the flock, and heep it up unto themselves.

                                James 2:8-9
                                If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
                                Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
                                But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin,
                                and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

                                Jesus said that children of God will be WITH Him in heaven.
                                John 14:1-3. Christ is in heaven, so will be all the children of God,
                                all who received Him believed in Him and have faith in Him.
                                We are heirs WITH Him. Amen \o/
                                It is written:
                                If you belong to Christ you are heirs -Gal 3:29
                                Heirs by faith -Gal 4:28-31
                                Heirs of the Kingdom -Jam 2:5
                                Heirs of eternal life -Tts 3:7



                                The slave getting people to spread the news of the earthly fleshly org.
                                Apostle Paul was right: "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
                                are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" The slave says, you can't have
                                the anointing, and the Lord Jesus Christ said YOU MUST John 3:3-8.
                                And whosoever receives Christ is a child of God and heir WITH Christ.
                                (Rom 8:15-17)

                                We read a WT history of people who seeminly begun in the Spirit and NOW
                                working in the flesh to be made perfect by the flesh. Are they so foolish?
                                Yes I suppose they are. JW's ignore the Word of God they profess to love
                                and read so much. They say certain scriptures do not apply to them because
                                the slave said so... I groan in the Spirit for them, Oh how I groan. They
                                beleive the mistaken governing body of men over the Word of God,
                                forsakeing their own eternal salvation and walking in the flesh by the ways
                                and teachings of foolish men the gov bod of the WT. Woe to those who
                                stumble the people looking for their salvation in the Lord and they mislead
                                them. Christ tells us it is better they have a millstone hung aroung their
                                necks and drown;
                                Mat 18:6
                                "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,
                                it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,
                                and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Rev 18:21)



                                Are the anointless ones of the WT suffering so many things in vain?
                                (Gal 3:1-4)

                                Well the gospel of the WT is a vain and hopeless gosple with those
                                believing in it having faith in the ways of men, not in Christ.

                                There is wisdom to come unto you, receive Christ Jesus into your hearts.
                                But if you deny Christ raised bodily from the dead, what have you?
                                Brother Paul said your faith is in vain, you remain in your sins (1Cor ch
                                15).

                                I ask:
                                Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

                                The faith of the Christian church is the bodily ressurrection of our Lord.
                                The slaves teach against the Christian faith and hope, against Christ Jesus
                                our Lord. Indeed, the WT gospel and _believing in the org_ is in vain.

                                Our Lord Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection it's much more than a doctrinal
                                proposition and not just an one day a year celebration. It is the pillar
                                upon
                                which rests the hope of all Christians. The slaves to the WTBTS teachings
                                destroy the gospel of our Lord (1Cor 15:1-11) My brother in the faith
                                apostle
                                Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in
                                your sins"
                                (1Cor15:17). The slaves to the WT are ignorant fools misleading those
                                seeking
                                the truth of Christ away from Him. I make no apologies for exposing them,
                                God blesses me for doing so. I remained quiet far to long with His truth
                                when
                                they came "knocking at my door" (Matt ch 7). It is a command from God,
                                so shall it be (Eph 5:11, 2Tim 4:1-5).

                                My Lord raised from the dead bodily, His resurrection is literally the
                                wakening
                                of our fleshly dead and blind lives and the Christian impetus of faith and
                                witness.

                                Because Lord Jesus Christ lives (not angel michael), the Scripture say,
                                believers live also. (Rom ch 6)

                                Luke ch 24
                                And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise
                                in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me,
                                and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
                                And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

                                John ch 20
                                Then saith he to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands;
                                and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless,
                                but believing."
                                And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."
                                Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast
                                believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."



                                When your honestly repentant, God reads your heart and "Saves you"...
                                you ARE "SAVED" <past tense>
                                When you receive the Christ, believe on His name, have faith in Him you
                                receive the gift of God by your honest repentant heart and become born
                                of God, experiance the new-birth (John 3:3-8) you ARE a child of God.
                                "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ."

                                YOU CAN KNOW YOU ARE SAVED.
                                1John 5:13
                                These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of
                                the Son of God; that YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life,
                                and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.
                                John 1:12-13
                                But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
                                of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of
                                blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

                                John 3:18
                                He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
                                condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
                                begotten Son of God.

                                Rom 8:15-17
                                For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have
                                received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit
                                itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And
                                if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be
                                that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

                                2Cor 5:1
                                For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved,
                                we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the
                                heavens.

                                I'm saved In Christ. When God the Father looks at me, He sees His Son
                                Christ Jesus _covering me_. Abba, Father sees His Son, I'm washed in
                                the blood of His Son, washed in the blood of the Lamb. The promise of
                                eternal salvation is for whosoever believes in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
                                \o/


                                Why are ye troubled? Why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
                                Be not faithless, but believing, blessed are they that have not seen,
                                and yet have believed. Amen \o/

                                be blessed In Christ,
                                barb

                                -
                                -
                                -


                                Message 20249
                                From: "Sinclair Stable" <sincink@i...>
                                Date: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:34 pm
                                Subject: Re: Lets not let Teresa ignore this question.

                                RICK II: NOTHING MORE THAN A WAR.

                                powerdog wrote:
                                Reply: Yeah you are right Rick. The world wasn't changed suddenly and
                                dramaticly in 1914, and all the thousands of idiot historians and
                                commentators, both secular and religious, not to mention the people
                                that were actually alive and lived thru it know what they are talking
                                about. They should have asked a bitter JW basher like you that is
                                obsessed with proving JWs wrong what really happened. I'm sure they
                                would thank you greatly for explaining to them that absolutely nothing
                                out of the ordinary happened and only a fool would suggest that it
                                had. Shall we start re-writing all the history books now. We don't
                                want people to read them and think there might be something to what
                                those JWs say.
                                ==========================


                                Hey Rick,
                                Yeah you are right Rick. The world wasn't changed suddenly and
                                dramaticly in 1914 and Jesus Christ did not return invisbly to the
                                WTBTS in 1914. All the thousands of historians and commentators,
                                both secular and religious, not to mention the people that were actually
                                alive and lived thru it knew that they did not see Christ Jesus coming
                                on the clouds, they knew what they are talking about, just like Jesus
                                Christ the Word of God did "Do not believe it" regarding a secret
                                invisible presence return (Matt 24:23-27). They should have asked a bitter
                                JC basher like powerdog that is obsessed with proving Christ's Word wrong.
                                You know, the Word that Jesus Christ Himself said.
                                "Then if anyone says to YOU 'Look! Here is the Christ, ' or, 'There!'
                                DO NOT BELIEVE IT. For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and will
                                give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen
                                ones.
                                Look! I have forewarned YOU. Therefore, if people say to YOU, 'Look!
                                He is in the wilderness,' DO NOT GO OUT; 'Look! He is in the inner
                                chambers,'
                                DO NOT BELIEVE IT. For just as the lightning comes out of the eastern parts
                                and shines over to the western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will
                                be."

                                I was sure JW's would thank you Rick greatly for explaining to them that
                                absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened and only a fool would
                                suggest that Jesus Christ had returned invisibly in 1914. Shall we let the
                                F&DS of the WT start re-writing all their history books again now. We
                                don't want people to read them and think there might be / of been something
                                to what those JWs say. Because Jesus Christ Himself said _there isn't_.

                                In Christ,
                                barb
                              • warrior_of_the_sword
                                What s your point? Who here has said that Jesus is Jehovah?
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 9, 2004
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                                  What's your point? Who here has said that Jesus is Jehovah?



                                  --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@yahoogroups.com, cwsohio
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > Thanks Robert :)
                                  >
                                  > All verses KJV
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.