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Re: From Baptists to Adventist to Witnesses 1914 & Parousia

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  • rondoggy2000
    ... are ... visibly. ... His ... JW s ... to ... Biblical ... seek ... convinced ... these ... Lord ... see ... of ... the ... This ... return, ... presenting
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2002
      --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., para129 <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Ron,
      >
      > I'll say Amen to that.
      >
      > PLEASE wake up and stop listening to 'rich' and 'blind' leaders.
      >
      > Jesus is waiting for you to call Him.
      >
      > Peace
      >
      > Para
      >
      > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "rondoggy2000"
      > <rondoggy2000@y...> wrote:
      > > ---
      > > Vicki,
      > > I agree the fact that a date is not given in the bible shows we
      are
      > > to be prepared for the rerturn of Christ and it will come
      visibly.
      > > He will return as a theif in the night. Christ showed this when
      His
      > > Apostle fell asleep literally- He told them to keep awake. The
      JW's
      > > are asleep spiritually and thus many of them need to be awakened
      to
      > > Christ. THey give lip service to Him, but do not know the
      Biblical
      > > Jesus ho died for all mankind not just a small number of 144,000.
      > > Jesus is COMING and I admonish all hearers of this message to
      seek
      > > Him before it is too late.
      > > Ron
      > >
      > >
      > > In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., vickijh28 <no_reply@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > > Hello again everyone.
      > > >
      > > > dldavis007 this was a very interesting read, and it has
      convinced
      > > me
      > > > even more so that Jesus did not return on any date, as even
      these
      > > > organisations cannot make up their minds on a date!
      > > > Also the bible is clear that ONLY the Father knows the day or
      > hour
      > > of
      > > > Jesus's return!
      > > > Mk 13:32 "But of that day or hour, NO ONE knows, neither the
      > > angels
      > > > in heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."
      > > >
      > > > we are still to wait for the great day of the return of our
      Lord
      > > > Jesus Christ, lets just hope people will believe it when they
      see
      > > it,
      > > > and they won't be the ones to say " Lord Lord" and Jesus turns
      > > round
      > > > and says" I never knew you"
      > > >
      > > > Take care.
      > > > Vicki
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In jehovahswitnessesgathering@y..., "dldavis007"
      > > > <dldavis007@h...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I apologize that this is so long. More than half of it is
      > > > > quoted material. I've tried to summarize most though.
      > > > >
      > > > > I wasn't quite sure what to title this, because it is a mix
      of
      > > > > history, quotes, definitions and my comments. The the title
      > > > > comes from the fact that I found it was interesting that
      > > > > there are connections between Baptists, Adventist, Witnesses,
      > > > > 1914 and the Parousia
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm posting this for background information in regards to
      the
      > > > > Witnesses belief that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914.
      This
      > > > > information does not disprove the idea of an invisible
      return,
      > > > > but I do think that there are good reasons to doubt the 1914
      > > > > date. The Witnesses in this group do a good job of
      presenting
      > > > > why they believe Jesus returned in 1914. So this is just the
      > > > > other point of view.
      > > > >
      > > > > To begin I've copied some information for the Adventist.org
      > > > > website(see below). A brief summary is as follows:
      > > > >
      > > > > -William Miller a Baptist preacher started the Adventist
      > movement
      > > > > -that expected Jesus to return in 1844. When it did not
      occur
      > > > > -Miller's followers experienced what became to be
      called "the
      > > great
      > > > > -Disappointment." They became convinced that the Bible
      prophecy
      > > > > -predicted not that Jesus would return to earth in 1844, but
      > > that
      > > > > -He would begin at that time a special ministry in heaven
      for
      > > His
      > > > > -followers.
      > > > >
      > > > > The next quote is from Russell's book "Studies in the
      > Scriptures
      > > > > Vol 3"(see below). A brief summary is as follows:
      > > > >
      > > > > -Although Russell did not agree with Miller's predictions,
      he
      > > > > -considered the Adventist movement and the 1844 date
      > significant.
      > > > > -The 30 years between 1844 and 1874 corresponded with the 30
      > > years
      > > > > -between Jesus' birth and his anointing(see below for more
      > > details).
      > > > >
      > > > > Russell's series "Studies in the Scriptures" goes into great
      > > detail
      > > > > to prove that Jesus returned in 1874, and that God's kingdom
      > > would
      > > > > be fully established in 1914. I believe that a recent
      > > publication
      > > > > of the Witnesses, the "Proclaimers" book admits this, but
      does
      > > not
      > > > > get too deep into the details.
      > > > >
      > > > > The next quote is from the Witness book "Light"(see below).
      > > > > I will use one sentence from below concerning 1914 for a
      brief
      > > > > summary:
      > > > >
      > > > > -When that time came and passed there was much
      disappointment,
      > > > > -chagrin, and mourning, and the Lord's people were greatly
      in
      > > > > -reproach.
      > > > >
      > > > > The last quote is the definition of "Parousia" from
      > > > the "International
      > > > > Standard Bible Encyclopedia". I will not summarize it(see
      > below).
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > My summary of the above information:
      > > > >
      > > > > The proper translation of "parousia" as "presence" can
      suggest
      > > an
      > > > > unseen return, but as can be seen from the definition, there
      are
      > > > > some shades to meaning to "parousia" that are not brought
      out
      > > with
      > > > > the English word presence.
      > > > >
      > > > > The quote showing the disappointment of the Witnesses
      > > > > concerning 1914 has a strange similarity to the Adventists
      > > > > response to 1844. Especially since both keep their dates,
      but
      > > > > revised the meanings. Now that the "this Generation"
      doctrine
      > > has
      > > > > been recently revised. I believe that the Witnesses will be
      > able
      > > > > to cling to the revised 1914 prediction for many years to
      come.
      > > > > Just as some Adventist still cling to their revised 1844
      > > prediction.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jesus' return whether visible or invisible is not as clear
      and
      > > > > straight foward as we would like to think it is. The
      Adventist
      > > > > and the Witnesses have demonstrated for well over 100 years
      now
      > > > > that it is possible to have a belief system that supports the
      > > > > idea of an invisible return. Their belief system requires
      > > > > an invisible return, so they emphasis the scriptures that
      > > > > support it.
      > > > >
      > > > > To anyone looking into this I would suggest that they
      research
      > > > > this subject very thoroughly before deciding one way or the
      > > > > other. I believe that this is one of the defining doctrines
      > > > > of the Witnesses. You cannot doubt it and be a Witness.
      > > > >
      > > > > Sincerely,
      > > > >
      > > > > Darrell
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      > -
      > > --
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.adventist.org/history/
      > > > >
      > > > > In just a century and a half the Seventh-day Adventist
      Church
      > > has
      > > > > grown from a handful of individuals, who carefully studied
      the
      > > > Bible
      > > > > in their search for truth, to a world-wide community of over
      > > eight
      > > > > million members and millions of others who regard the
      Adventist
      > > > > Church their spiritual home. Doctrinally, Seventh-day
      > Adventists
      > > > are
      > > > > heirs of the interfaith Millerite movement of the 1840s.
      > > Although
      > > > the
      > > > > name "Seventh-day Adventist" was chosen in 1860, the
      > > denomination
      > > > was
      > > > > not officially organized until Ma y 21, 1863, when the
      movement
      > > > > included some 125 churches and 3,500 members.
      > > > >
      > > > > Between 1831 and 1844, William Miller--a Baptist preacher
      and
      > > > former
      > > > > army captain in the War of 1812--launched the "great second
      > > advent
      > > > > awakening" which eventually spread throughout most of the
      > > Christian
      > > > > world. Based on his study of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14,
      > Miller
      > > > > calculated that Jesus would return to earth sometime between
      > > 1843
      > > > and
      > > > > 1844. Others within the movement calculated a specific date
      of
      > > > > October 22, 1844. When Jesus did not appear, Miller's
      followers
      > > > > experienced what became to be called "the great
      Disappointment."
      > > > >
      > > > > Most of the thousands who had joined the movement, left it,
      in
      > > deep
      > > > > disillusionment. A few, however, went back to their Bibles
      to
      > > find
      > > > > why they had been disappointed. Soon they concluded that the
      > > > October
      > > > > 22 date had indeed been correct. They became convinced that
      the
      > > > Bible
      > > > > prophecy predicted not that Jesus would return to earth in
      > 1844,
      > > > but
      > > > > that He would begin at that time a special ministry in
      heaven
      > > for
      > > > His
      > > > > followers. They still looked for Jesus to come soon,
      however,
      > as
      > > do
      > > > > Seventh-day Adventists yet today.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      > -
      > > --
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Volume 3, Study III - Days of Waiting For The Kingdom -
      'Daniel
      > > 12'
      > > > >
      > > > > A religious movement culminated in 1844, the participants in
      > > which
      > > > > were then, and since, generally known as "Second Adventists"
      > > > > and "Millerites," because they expected the second advent of
      > the
      > > > Lord
      > > > > to occur at that date, and because a Mr. William Miller was
      the
      > > > > leader and prime mover. The movement, which began about
      1829,
      > > had
      > > > > before 1844 (when they expected the Lord's return) attracted
      > the
      > > > > attention of all classes of Christian people, especially in
      the
      > > > > Eastern and Middle States where it amounted to an
      excitement. A
      > > > long
      > > > > while before this, Prof. Bengel, in Tubingen, Germany, began
      to
      > > > call
      > > > > attention to the prophecies and the coming Kingdom of
      Messiah,
      > > > while
      > > > > the celebrated missionary Wolff did the same in Asia. The
      > center
      > > of
      > > > > the work, however, was America, where social, political and
      > > > religious
      > > > > <85> conditions have favored, more than elsewhere,
      independence
      > > in
      > > > > Bible study as well as in other matters; just as the first
      > > advent
      > > > > movement was confined to Judea, though all the devout
      > > Israelites,
      > > > > everywhere, heard more or less of it. `Acts 2:5`
      > > > >
      > > > > All know something of the failure of Brother Miller's
      > > expectations.
      > > > > The Lord did not come in 1844, and the world was not burned
      up
      > > with
      > > > > fire, as he had expected and taught others to expect; and
      this
      > > was
      > > > a
      > > > > great disappointment to those "holy people" who had so
      > > confidently
      > > > > looked for Christ ("Michael") then to appear and to exalt
      them
      > > with
      > > > > him in power and glory. But, notwithstanding the
      > disappointment,
      > > > the
      > > > > movement had its designed effects--of awakening an interest
      in
      > > the
      > > > > subject of the Lord's coming, and of casting reproach upon
      the
      > > > > subject by reason of mistaken expectations. We say designed
      > > effects
      > > > > because without a doubt the hand of the Lord was in it. It
      not
      > > only
      > > > > did a work corresponding to that of the first advent
      movement,
      > > when
      > > > > our Lord was born, when the wise men came from the East and
      > > > when "all
      > > > > men were in expectation of him" (`Matt. 2:1,2`; `Luke
      3:15`),
      > > but
      > > > it
      > > > > corresponded with it in time also, being just thirty years
      > > before
      > > > the
      > > > > anointing of our Lord, at thirty years of age, at the
      beginning
      > > of
      > > > > his work as Messiah. That "Miller movement," as it is
      > > slightingly
      > > > > called, brought also an individual blessing to the "holy
      > people"
      > > > who
      > > > > participated in it: it led to a careful searching of the
      > > > Scriptures,
      > > > > and to confidence in God's Word above the traditions of men;
      > and
      > > it
      > > > > warmed and fed and united the hearts of God's children in
      > > > unsectarian
      > > > > fellowship; for those interested were of all denominations,
      > > though
      > > > > principally Baptists. It is since that movement ended, that
      > some
      > > of
      > > > > these have organized and bound themselves as new sects, thus
      > > > blinding
      > > > > themselves to some of the blessings due in the "harvest."
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      > -
      > > --
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > *** Light, 1930 ed. p., 194 ***
      > > > > [Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]
      > > > >
      > > > > All of the Lord's people looked forward to 1914 with joyful
      > > > > expectation. When that time came and passed there was much
      > > > > disappointment, chagrin, and mourning, and the Lord's people
      > > were
      > > > > greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and
      > their
      > > > > allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because
      they
      > > had
      > > > > said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and
      > > > > their `prophecies' had not been fulfilled.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
      ---
      > -
      > > --
      > > > >
      > > > > International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
      > > > >
      > > > > The Second Coming of Christ (a phrase not found in the
      Bible)
      > is
      > > > > expressed by the apostles in the following special terms:
      > > > (1) "Greek
      > > > > [Parousia]" (Greek [parousia]), a word fairly common in
      Greek,
      > > with
      > > > > the meaning "presence" (2Cor 10:10; Phil 2:12). More
      > especially
      > > it
      > > > > may mean "presence after absence," "arrival" (but
      not "return,"
      > > > > unless this is given by the context), as in 1Cor 16:17; 2Cor
      > > 7:6,
      > > > 7;
      > > > > Phil 1:26. And still more particularly it is applied to the
      > > Coming
      > > > > of Christ in 1Cor 15:23; 1Thess 2:19; 1Thess 3:13; 1Thess
      4:15;
      > > > > 1Thess 5:23; 2Thess 2:1, 8; Jas 5:7, 8; 2Pet 1:16; 2Pet 3:4,
      > 12;
      > > > 1Jn
      > > > > 2:28 -- in all 13 times, besides 2Thess 2:9, where it
      denotes
      > > the
      > > > > coming of Anti-christ. This word for Christ's Second Coming
      > > passed
      > > > > into the early Patristic literature (Diognetus, vii.6,
      e.g.),
      > > but
      > > > its
      > > > > use in this sense is not invariable. For instance the word
      in
      > > > > Ignatius, Philadelphians, ix.2, means the Incarnation. Or
      the
      > > > > Incarnation is called the first Greek [Parousia], as in
      Justin,
      > > > > Trypho, xiv. But in modern theology it means invariably the
      > > Second
      > > > > Coming. Recent archaeological discoveries have explained
      why
      > > the
      > > > > word received such general Christian use in the special
      sense.
      > > In
      > > > > Hellenistic Greek it was used for the arrival of a ruler at
      a
      > > > place,
      > > > > as is evidenced by inscriptions in Egypt, Asia Minor, etc.
      > > Indeed,
      > > > > in an Epidaurus inscription of the 3rd century BC
      > (Dittenberger,
      > > > > Sylloge (2), Number 803,34), "Greek [Parousia]" is applied
      to a
      > > > > manifestation of Aesculapius. Consequently, the adoption by
      > the
      > > > > Greek-speaking Christians of a word that already contained
      full
      > > > regal
      > > > > and even Divine concepts was perfectly natural. (The
      evidence
      > > is
      > > > > well summarized in Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East
      3,372-
      > > 78,
      > > > > German edition, 281-87.)
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