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Java Web Alignment in 2006

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  • Kito D. Mann
    Hello everyone, So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group can accomplish something, even if it s just starting another group with a
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 11, 2006
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      Hello everyone,

      So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group can
      accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with a more
      specific focus :-).

      The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork merger, but
      that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or principles that
      help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make life
      easier for Java web developers.

      So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean changed?
      If so, how?

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
      Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
      Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
      http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
      phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
    • Patrick Lightbody
      Well, I personally would still like other frameworks that do request URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not by actually bringing
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 11, 2006
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        Well, I personally would still like other frameworks that do request
        URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not
        by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together
        smaller parts:

        - data binding layer
        - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL
        better?)
        - validation support
        - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations
        for data binding or validation)
        - etc

        Patrick

        On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:

        > Hello everyone,
        >
        > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group
        > can
        > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with
        > a more
        > specific focus :-).
        >
        > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork
        > merger, but
        > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or
        > principles that
        > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make life
        > easier for Java web developers.
        >
        > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean
        > changed?
        > If so, how?
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
        > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
        > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
        > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
        > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
        >
        >
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
      • Nick Heudecker
        At some level, the component-based frameworks could also make use of validation and annotations to support it, as well as the expression language component.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 11, 2006
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          At some level, the component-based frameworks could also make use of validation and annotations to support it, as well as the expression language component. 

          -Nick

          On 1/11/06, Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote:
          Well, I personally would still like other frameworks that do request 
          URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not 
          by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together 
          smaller parts:

            - data binding layer
            - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL 
          better?)
            - validation support
            - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations 
          for data binding or validation)
            - etc

          Patrick


          On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:

          > Hello everyone,
          >
          > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group 
          > can
          > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with 
          > a more
          > specific focus :-).
          >
          > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork 
          > merger, but
          > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or 
          > principles that
          > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make life
          > easier for Java web developers.
          >
          > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean 
          > changed?
          > If so, how?
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
          > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
          > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
          > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
          > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
          >
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >  Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
          >
          >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >



          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




        • Eelco Hillenius
          However: - take the databinding... there are two competing JSR running, and now there is Seam too. Quite tough to pick your best bet. - expression language:
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 11, 2006
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            However:

            - take the databinding... there are two competing JSR running, and now
            there is Seam too. Quite tough to pick your best bet.
            - expression language: needed for what?
            - validation support: hard to get that implementation agnostic AND elegant

            Don't want to sound negative of course, any concrete suggestions would
            be welcome. Personally, I would be very interested in what you guys
            think would be the future for databinding. Preferably something that
            works with webapps and Swing, but at least something really
            standardized and with an actual oss implementation on the horizon.

            Eelco


            On 1/12/06, Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote:
            > Well, I personally would still like other frameworks that do request
            > URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not
            > by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together
            > smaller parts:
            >
            > - data binding layer
            > - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL
            > better?)
            > - validation support
            > - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations
            > for data binding or validation)
            > - etc
            >
            > Patrick
            >
            >
            > On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:
            >
            > > Hello everyone,
            > >
            > > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group
            > > can
            > > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with
            > > a more
            > > specific focus :-).
            > >
            > > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork
            > > merger, but
            > > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or
            > > principles that
            > > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make life
            > > easier for Java web developers.
            > >
            > > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean
            > > changed?
            > > If so, how?
            > >
            > >
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
            > > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
            > > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
            > > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
            > > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
            > >
            > >
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
          • jacob hookom
            Pertaining to EL, there has been some discussion about splitting EL off into a separate Java.net project. One thing to note is that we could implement
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 12, 2006
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              Pertaining to EL, there has been some discussion about splitting EL off into a separate Java.net project.  One thing to note is that we could implement projections and method invocation, while retaining the existing, stable API.  From one stance, frameworks could standardize on the EL-API with the expectation that down the road, they could swap in a different ExpressionFactory that possibly has more features within the EL itself, because really-- that's the issue.

              The EL-API and mechanics of EL Resolution chaining and VariableMapping is pretty flexible as we've seen with all of the customization around JSF so far.

              -- Jacob

              Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote:
              Well, I personally would still like other frameworks that do request 
              URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not 
              by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together 
              smaller parts:

                - data binding layer
                - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL 
              better?)
                - validation support
                - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations 
              for data binding or validation)
                - etc

              Patrick

              On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:

              > Hello everyone,
              >
              > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group 
              > can
              > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with 
              > a more
              > specific focus :-).
              >
              > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork 
              > merger, but
              > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or 
              > principles that
              > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make life
              > easier for Java web developers.
              >
              > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean 
              > changed?
              > If so, how?
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
              > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
              > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
              > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
              > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
              >
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >  Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
              >
              >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >  java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >



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            • Patrick Lightbody
              I think the only other thing we (Struts/WebWork) would need is the same level of type conversion that OGNL offers. That is: API hooks for setting and getting
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 13, 2006
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                I think the only other thing we (Struts/WebWork) would need is the
                same level of type conversion that OGNL offers. That is: API hooks
                for setting and getting values (to/from String, or, better yet,
                generically).


                On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:57 PM, jacob hookom wrote:

                > Pertaining to EL, there has been some discussion about splitting EL
                > off into a separate Java.net project. One thing to note is that we
                > could implement projections and method invocation, while retaining
                > the existing, stable API. From one stance, frameworks could
                > standardize on the EL-API with the expectation that down the road,
                > they could swap in a different ExpressionFactory that possibly has
                > more features within the EL itself, because really-- that's the issue.
                >
                > The EL-API and mechanics of EL Resolution chaining and
                > VariableMapping is pretty flexible as we've seen with all of the
                > customization around JSF so far.
                >
                > -- Jacob
                >
                > Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote: Well, I personally
                > would still like other frameworks that do request
                > URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not
                > by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together
                > smaller parts:
                >
                > - data binding layer
                > - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL
                > better?)
                > - validation support
                > - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations
                > for data binding or validation)
                > - etc
                >
                > Patrick
                >
                > On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:
                >
                > > Hello everyone,
                > >
                > > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group
                > > can
                > > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with
                > > a more
                > > specific focus :-).
                > >
                > > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork
                > > merger, but
                > > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or
                > > principles that
                > > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make
                > life
                > > easier for Java web developers.
                > >
                > > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean
                > > changed?
                > > If so, how?
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
                > > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
                > > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
                > > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
                > > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
                > >
                > >
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
                > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
              • jacob hookom
                That s true-- I think you brought this up with the jsp-eg-user list. You could do it (to some extent) with a custom BeanELResolver for property assignment,
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 13, 2006
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                  That's true-- I think you brought this up with the jsp-eg-user list.  You could do it (to some extent) with a custom BeanELResolver for property assignment, but we would need to guarantee coercion rules by String within all other operands.

                  Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote:
                  I think the only other thing we (Struts/WebWork) would need is the
                  same level of type conversion that OGNL offers. That is: API hooks
                  for setting and getting values (to/from String, or, better yet,
                  generically).


                  On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:57 PM, jacob hookom wrote:

                  > Pertaining to EL, there has been some discussion about splitting EL
                  > off into a separate Java.net project. One thing to note is that we
                  > could implement projections and method invocation, while retaining
                  > the existing, stable API. From one stance, frameworks could
                  > standardize on the EL-API with the expectation that down the road,
                  > they could swap in a different ExpressionFactory that possibly has
                  > more features within the EL itself, because really-- that's the issue.
                  >
                  > The EL-API and mechanics of EL Resolution chaining and
                  > VariableMapping is pretty flexible as we've seen with all of the
                  > customization around JSF so far.
                  >
                  > -- Jacob
                  >
                  > Patrick Lightbody wrote: Well, I personally
                  > would still like other frameworks that do request
                  > URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not
                  > by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together
                  > smaller parts:
                  >
                  > - data binding layer
                  > - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL
                  > better?)
                  > - validation support
                  > - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations
                  > for data binding or validation)
                  > - etc
                  >
                  > Patrick
                  >
                  > On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hello everyone,
                  > >
                  > > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group
                  > > can
                  > > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with
                  > > a more
                  > > specific focus :-).
                  > >
                  > > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork
                  > > merger, but
                  > > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or
                  > > principles that
                  > > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make
                  > life
                  > > easier for Java web developers.
                  > >
                  > > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean
                  > > changed?
                  > > If so, how?
                  > >
                  > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > Kito D. Mann (kmann@...)
                  > > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
                  > > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
                  > > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
                  > > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >
                  > > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
                  > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >




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                • Patrick Lightbody
                  Yup, I think that is the only thing holding me back from JSTL. The method calls and projection are nice and are a close second and third, respectively, but
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 13, 2006
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                    Yup, I think that is the only thing holding me back from JSTL. The method calls and projection are nice and are a close second and third, respectively, but without solid type conversion JSTL is a non-starter. I'm glad to hear we're not far off though!

                    On 1/13/06, jacob hookom <hookomjj@...> wrote:
                    That's true-- I think you brought this up with the jsp-eg-user list.  You could do it (to some extent) with a custom BeanELResolver for property assignment, but we would need to guarantee coercion rules by String within all other operands.

                    Patrick Lightbody <plightbo@...> wrote:
                    I think the only other thing we (Struts/WebWork) would need is the
                    same level of type conversion that OGNL offers. That is: API hooks
                    for setting and getting values (to/from String, or, better yet,
                    generically).


                    On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:57 PM, jacob hookom wrote:

                    > Pertaining to EL, there has been some discussion about splitting EL
                    > off into a separate Java.net project. One thing to note is that we
                    > could implement projections and method invocation, while retaining
                    > the existing, stable API. From one stance, frameworks could
                    > standardize on the EL-API with the expectation that down the road,
                    > they could swap in a different ExpressionFactory that possibly has
                    > more features within the EL itself, because really-- that's the issue.
                    >
                    > The EL-API and mechanics of EL Resolution chaining and
                    > VariableMapping is pretty flexible as we've seen with all of the
                    > customization around JSF so far.
                    >
                    > -- Jacob
                    >
                    > Patrick Lightbody wrote: Well, I personally

                    > would still like other frameworks that do request
                    > URL mapping (WW, Struts, Stripes, etc) to work together more. If not
                    > by actually bringing the projects together, then by bringing together
                    > smaller parts:
                    >
                    > - data binding layer
                    > - expression language (ie: can we all band together to make JSTL
                    > better?)
                    > - validation support
                    > - annotations (ie: can we agree on a standard set of annotations
                    > for data binding or validation)
                    > - etc
                    >
                    > Patrick
                    >
                    > On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Kito D. Mann wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hello everyone,
                    > >
                    > > So momentum waned before the holidays, but I still think this group
                    > > can
                    > > accomplish something, even if it's just starting another group with
                    > > a more
                    > > specific focus :-).
                    > >
                    > > The landscape has changed a bit because of the Struts/WebWork
                    > > merger, but
                    > > that doesn't mean we can't establish some tools, code, or
                    > > principles that
                    > > help unify all of our frameworks to some degree, or at least make
                    > life
                    > > easier for Java web developers.
                    > >
                    > > So, have your thoughts about what "Java Web Alignment" should mean
                    > > changed?
                    > > If so, how?
                    > >
                    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > > Kito D. Mann ( kmann@...)
                    > > Principal Consultant, Virtua, Inc. (http://www.virtua.com)
                    > > Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
                    > > http://www.JSFCentral.com - JavaServer Faces FAQ, news, and info
                    > > phone: 203-323-1244 fax: 203-323-2363
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > >
                    > > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
                    > Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > Visit your group "java_web_alignment" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >




                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/java_web_alignment/

                    <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    java_web_alignment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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                  • jacob hookom
                    I wrote a blog entry on possibly going stateless with JSF-- I d love to get some feedback from other developers. IMHO, going stateless as I suggested would
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 14, 2006
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                      I wrote a blog entry on possibly going stateless with JSF-- I'd love to get some feedback from other developers.  IMHO, going stateless as I suggested would make it easier for other frameworks to delegate functionality to JSF without involving themselves in the entire 'framework' lifecycle and communication.

                      http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jhook/archive/2006/01/experiment_goin_1.html

                      Thanks,
                      Jacob


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