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Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation

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  • Steven Phillips
    All, This is harder than it may first appear, following is a list of issues that need to be addressed: High priority Ability to remove all default bindings
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 19, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      All,

      This is harder than it may first appear, following is a list of issues that
      need to be addressed:

      High priority
      Ability to remove all default bindings (internal)
      Ability to rebind interrupt (C-g) key (horrible internal)
      Configure ME to run in windows mode (macro - Emulate = windows?)
      Disable the setup of various global-bindings in me.emf (macro)
      Change the buffer specific bindings to windows ones (macro)
      Medium
      Change the Main menu to show correct bindings (macro)
      Change the buffer help pages (macro)
      Lower
      Change or add docs (documentation)

      Are there any issues I've missed? Please consider offer possible emulations.

      The first 5 are musts, the next 2 are bordering on musts (what do you
      think??) and documentation is documentation.

      The first 2 items are not possible in the current release, ME must be
      changed. The 3 is already there. The next 4 can be done, but how? this will
      greatly impact the macros and their maintainability.

      Given this I propose that Jasspa do a feasibility study first to determine
      an expectable approach to these problems. Once a solution has been agreed
      on, we can release the new version and the Emulation can then be created by
      whoever wishes to.

      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jon Green" <jnaught@...>
      To: <jasspa@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation




      Martin_Doering@... wrote:
      >
      > Hello, Listers!
      >
      > I would like to develope an editor emulation for to use with me '00. I
      read
      > the documentation, and it says, that the only emulation developed so far
      is
      > the one for microemacs 3.8 from Steven Phillips (me3_8.emf).
      >
      > If I have a look at the code it seems, that there are just some minor
      > changes in the editor behaviour. What I want to do is more, e.g. give
      > CUA-keybindings (not just the C-v, C-x, C-C stuff), but also a more
      > Motif/Windows/Mac like behaviour like C-z for undo C-a fo select all and
      > exclusively using the cursor keys for navigation, so that other keys like
      > C-p are free for other commands. Also I would like to use the ESC key for
      > breaking an operation, not as a modifier key.
      >
      > All in all I think this is a very good idea and it also would be good for
      > me '00, if some users, which come from windows (or use it) or are familiar
      > with this keys could use me. The more people use it, the more people would
      > support me and do additional developements on it.
      >
      > I don't want to be a missionary. I also don't want to discuss, if the
      > emacs, vi or XXX keyset is better, or not. I just want to use the keyset
      > our developers and me use this time. This is mostly the one of nedit. BUT:
      > I like me '00 very much, because it is multi platform and it is very
      > powerful. Also it is customizable, even the language is a bit crude (for a
      > language fetishist like me ;-) And at all, it is very small - much
      > smaller, than the big emacses, nedit or others.
      >
      > So I became the idea to develope a new editor emulation for it - don't
      know
      > if this would ever become a part of the distribution, or not.
      >

      Provided that it works and does not conflict with the standard macros then
      it will be distributed. One reason why we have not done this to date is
      that we use Emacs for the Emacs bindings. However, one could completely
      change the bindings for whatever target - in theory.

      The only additional work that I can see that needs to be done is to disable
      some of the Emacs bindings that are added on the hook functions. In this
      case then a condition on the binding category would be required. i.e. we
      could not assume some of the prefixes that we currently use. (for example
      the hkc.emf has some local buffer bindings that would need to be altered).

      The only other tricky area is the mouse. As you may(not) be aware most
      of the mouse functionality is controlled from macros. The mouse behaviour
      may need to be modified to be more in keeping with other target system
      emulations.

      If somebody is prepared to make a start on the binding definitions then
      we will be more than willing to support more esoteric problems with
      prefixes and mouse bindings. Note that I have not volunteered for this
      since faced with Microsoft tools such as Notepad, Wordpad or MS-DEV I have
      severe problems with the keys because they are not Emacs - typically
      causing these packages to break or do wierd things when I use Emacs bindings
      !!

      >
      > So - what do you think? Is this a good idea? There would be a need for to
      > change some basic things like menues etc. E.g I don't know, if I would
      > change the main editor menus and keysets, what I would do with the
      > additional packages, like HTML etc. Mostly they can stay, like they are, I
      > think.
      >
      > All in all I find me would be a good base for such thing and - I have to
      > say that I find, that many things in me are done in a very modern and
      > userfriendly way, like the user setup, the menus, the registry, all the
      osd
      > part. It is done very well. It really would be a good base. And I would
      > say, that the creators must have had some windowish or better GUI-like
      > ideas in mind as they created it (me is not like other editors - it has
      not
      > only menues, but all other kinds of browsers, lists, directories etc.).
      >
      > I once tried such conversation on JED, whose language slang I like more,
      > but it was not so easy as I thought. For example JED does not have such
      > thing like osd and does not have easy changable dialogs for to change
      mouse
      > behaviour or such.
      >
      > What do you think: Would me be a good basis for me, or would you say, that
      > it is too much efford? Or would you not like such things? Normally the
      user
      > setup tells me, that there could be a wish, that there are some more
      > emulations than now.

      I would say it is a bit effort, but is do-able. You could probably get
      75-80% there with no help from us, but you will need more help once you
      try and resolve the last few items.

      There was a posting some time back requesting such a feature. I think
      that people would use it if it was available - there are people in
      my office that use ME for the line hilighting only and find it
      difficult to navigate using the standard bindings.

      I would point out that we are fairly open with new ideas etc. and are
      more than willing to take them on board, provided that there is always
      some sort of backwards compatibility and that it does not break any concepts
      that are already in place. The real problem for us is time - so
      contributions
      are always better than making a request for a feature - especially if
      it is a feature that we will not use.

      A number of you out there have come up with some exceedingly good ideas
      which we have taken on board and extended. i.e. Detlef's original idea
      of swapping the hilighting. This technique has been refined and included in
      a number of highlighting schemes with great effect. The Windows console for
      NT was another contribution.

      I look forward to your contributions !!

      Regards
      Jon
      (jon@...).

      >
      > Martin Döring
      >


      __________________________________________________________________________



      This is an unmoderated list. JASSPA is not responsible for the content of

      any material posted to this list.
    • Steven Phillips
      All, I have managed to address all the issues out-lined below and have successfully implemented an NEdit v5 emulation (well enough to show the concept works).
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        All,

        I have managed to address all the issues out-lined below and have
        successfully implemented an NEdit v5 emulation (well enough to show the
        concept works). This new version is now in Alpha and currently being tested.

        If someone wants this version early to help testing or to create an
        Emulation they are welcome to a version - please email me a request.

        I hope to get this tested and onto the Website asap.

        Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Steven Phillips" <sphillips@...>
        To: <jasspa@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 4:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation


        All,

        This is harder than it may first appear, following is a list of issues that
        need to be addressed:

        High priority
        Ability to remove all default bindings (internal)
        Ability to rebind interrupt (C-g) key (horrible internal)
        Configure ME to run in windows mode (macro - Emulate = windows?)
        Disable the setup of various global-bindings in me.emf (macro)
        Change the buffer specific bindings to windows ones (macro)
        Medium
        Change the Main menu to show correct bindings (macro)
        Change the buffer help pages (macro)
        Lower
        Change or add docs (documentation)

        Are there any issues I've missed? Please consider offer possible emulations.

        The first 5 are musts, the next 2 are bordering on musts (what do you
        think??) and documentation is documentation.

        The first 2 items are not possible in the current release, ME must be
        changed. The 3 is already there. The next 4 can be done, but how? this will
        greatly impact the macros and their maintainability.

        Given this I propose that Jasspa do a feasibility study first to determine
        an expectable approach to these problems. Once a solution has been agreed
        on, we can release the new version and the Emulation can then be created by
        whoever wishes to.

        Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jon Green" <jnaught@...>
        To: <jasspa@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation




        Martin_Doering@... wrote:
        >
        > Hello, Listers!
        >
        > I would like to develope an editor emulation for to use with me '00. I
        read
        > the documentation, and it says, that the only emulation developed so far
        is
        > the one for microemacs 3.8 from Steven Phillips (me3_8.emf).
        >
        > If I have a look at the code it seems, that there are just some minor
        > changes in the editor behaviour. What I want to do is more, e.g. give
        > CUA-keybindings (not just the C-v, C-x, C-C stuff), but also a more
        > Motif/Windows/Mac like behaviour like C-z for undo C-a fo select all and
        > exclusively using the cursor keys for navigation, so that other keys like
        > C-p are free for other commands. Also I would like to use the ESC key for
        > breaking an operation, not as a modifier key.
        >
        > All in all I think this is a very good idea and it also would be good for
        > me '00, if some users, which come from windows (or use it) or are familiar
        > with this keys could use me. The more people use it, the more people would
        > support me and do additional developements on it.
        >
        > I don't want to be a missionary. I also don't want to discuss, if the
        > emacs, vi or XXX keyset is better, or not. I just want to use the keyset
        > our developers and me use this time. This is mostly the one of nedit. BUT:
        > I like me '00 very much, because it is multi platform and it is very
        > powerful. Also it is customizable, even the language is a bit crude (for a
        > language fetishist like me ;-) And at all, it is very small - much
        > smaller, than the big emacses, nedit or others.
        >
        > So I became the idea to develope a new editor emulation for it - don't
        know
        > if this would ever become a part of the distribution, or not.
        >

        Provided that it works and does not conflict with the standard macros then
        it will be distributed. One reason why we have not done this to date is
        that we use Emacs for the Emacs bindings. However, one could completely
        change the bindings for whatever target - in theory.

        The only additional work that I can see that needs to be done is to disable
        some of the Emacs bindings that are added on the hook functions. In this
        case then a condition on the binding category would be required. i.e. we
        could not assume some of the prefixes that we currently use. (for example
        the hkc.emf has some local buffer bindings that would need to be altered).

        The only other tricky area is the mouse. As you may(not) be aware most
        of the mouse functionality is controlled from macros. The mouse behaviour
        may need to be modified to be more in keeping with other target system
        emulations.

        If somebody is prepared to make a start on the binding definitions then
        we will be more than willing to support more esoteric problems with
        prefixes and mouse bindings. Note that I have not volunteered for this
        since faced with Microsoft tools such as Notepad, Wordpad or MS-DEV I have
        severe problems with the keys because they are not Emacs - typically
        causing these packages to break or do wierd things when I use Emacs bindings
        !!

        >
        > So - what do you think? Is this a good idea? There would be a need for to
        > change some basic things like menues etc. E.g I don't know, if I would
        > change the main editor menus and keysets, what I would do with the
        > additional packages, like HTML etc. Mostly they can stay, like they are, I
        > think.
        >
        > All in all I find me would be a good base for such thing and - I have to
        > say that I find, that many things in me are done in a very modern and
        > userfriendly way, like the user setup, the menus, the registry, all the
        osd
        > part. It is done very well. It really would be a good base. And I would
        > say, that the creators must have had some windowish or better GUI-like
        > ideas in mind as they created it (me is not like other editors - it has
        not
        > only menues, but all other kinds of browsers, lists, directories etc.).
        >
        > I once tried such conversation on JED, whose language slang I like more,
        > but it was not so easy as I thought. For example JED does not have such
        > thing like osd and does not have easy changable dialogs for to change
        mouse
        > behaviour or such.
        >
        > What do you think: Would me be a good basis for me, or would you say, that
        > it is too much efford? Or would you not like such things? Normally the
        user
        > setup tells me, that there could be a wish, that there are some more
        > emulations than now.

        I would say it is a bit effort, but is do-able. You could probably get
        75-80% there with no help from us, but you will need more help once you
        try and resolve the last few items.

        There was a posting some time back requesting such a feature. I think
        that people would use it if it was available - there are people in
        my office that use ME for the line hilighting only and find it
        difficult to navigate using the standard bindings.

        I would point out that we are fairly open with new ideas etc. and are
        more than willing to take them on board, provided that there is always
        some sort of backwards compatibility and that it does not break any concepts
        that are already in place. The real problem for us is time - so
        contributions
        are always better than making a request for a feature - especially if
        it is a feature that we will not use.

        A number of you out there have come up with some exceedingly good ideas
        which we have taken on board and extended. i.e. Detlef's original idea
        of swapping the hilighting. This technique has been refined and included in
        a number of highlighting schemes with great effect. The Windows console for
        NT was another contribution.

        I look forward to your contributions !!

        Regards
        Jon
        (jon@...).

        >
        > Martin Döring
        >


        __________________________________________________________________________



        This is an unmoderated list. JASSPA is not responsible for the content of

        any material posted to this list.








        __________________________________________________________________________



        This is an unmoderated list. JASSPA is not responsible for the content of

        any material posted to this list.
      • Martin_Doering@mn.man.de
        Hello, Steven! That s very fine. I would like to test/use the emulation as soon as possible. That s exactly what I wanted to make. Is it running on the current
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 6, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello, Steven!


          That's very fine. I would like to test/use the emulation as soon as
          possible. That's exactly what I wanted to make. Is it running on the
          current beta (ME '00)?

          Possibly to have some real emulation(s) could help to make ME more
          flexible...

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Martin Döring
        • Steven Phillips
          Martin, I can mail the latest version to you in zip form, mesrc.zip (~660Kb) will contain the source code for building ME and meemf.zip (~750Kb) containing the
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 6, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Martin,

            I can mail the latest version to you in zip form, mesrc.zip (~660Kb) will
            contain the source code for building ME and meemf.zip (~750Kb) containing
            the macro release. Can you mail box cope with these 2 mails?

            Steve
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <Martin_Doering@...>
            To: <jasspa@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 8:30 AM
            Subject: Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation



            Hello, Steven!


            That's very fine. I would like to test/use the emulation as soon as
            possible. That's exactly what I wanted to make. Is it running on the
            current beta (ME '00)?

            Possibly to have some real emulation(s) could help to make ME more
            flexible...

            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----------------------------

            Martin Döring


            __________________________________________________________________________



            This is an unmoderated list. JASSPA is not responsible for the content of

            any material posted to this list.




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          • Jon Green
            Steve, I suggest that it is just dumped on jasspa.com. Let me know what you think. (Will have to sort out our mail server !!). Jon.
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 6, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Steve,

              I suggest that it is just dumped on jasspa.com.
              Let me know what you think. (Will have to
              sort out our mail server !!).

              Jon.

              Steven Phillips wrote:
              >
              > Martin,
              >
              > I can mail the latest version to you in zip form, mesrc.zip (~660Kb) will
              > contain the source code for building ME and meemf.zip (~750Kb) containing
              > the macro release. Can you mail box cope with these 2 mails?
              >
              > Steve
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <Martin_Doering@...>
              > To: <jasspa@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 8:30 AM
              > Subject: Re: [jasspa] CUA-Editor Emulation
              >
              > Hello, Steven!
              >
              > That's very fine. I would like to test/use the emulation as soon as
              > possible. That's exactly what I wanted to make. Is it running on the
              > current beta (ME '00)?
              >
              > Possibly to have some real emulation(s) could help to make ME more
              > flexible...
              >
            • Martin_Doering@mn.man.de
              Hello, Steve! Yes - you can send me all the stuff. Sorry for waiting so long - I was ill for one week. But now I m back in live! Just send all the needed stuff
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 11, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello, Steve!

                Yes - you can send me all the stuff. Sorry for waiting so long - I was ill
                for one week. But now I'm back in live! Just send all the needed stuff to
                me.

                Had there been much changes in the source or is it more a macro-thing?
                Could these changes be incorporated back in the original sources, or is it
                a new branch?

                For what did you do this? Just to see, if it is possible, or do you plan to
                use this derivate by yourself? So - now I ran out of questions...

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Martin Döring
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