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Re: [jasspa] Reference card - suggestions

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  • Jon Green
    ... Very nice. A welcome addition to the documentation. Jon.
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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      Christof Boeckler wrote:
      > Me again,
      >
      > I kicked XEmacs today (200MB!!) because I found out how easy it is to
      > script me :-)
      >
      > Most of my macros are already working (LaTeX-stuff, working like AUCTEX's
      > basic LaTeX input features - the last thing I did with XEmacs). I will
      > release that stuff as soon as it is finished.
      >
      > So far I have written a reference card for me, which is partially similar
      > to the one of XEmacs
      > http://refcards.com/refcards/xemacs/index.html
      > I have attached it because it's tiny (56kB). Write me your comments and
      > suggestions. There is actually a plan for a second page about macro
      > development ...
      >
      > Gruß / Regards
      > Christof
      >

      Very nice.
      A welcome addition to the documentation.
      Jon.
    • Jon Green
      ... Are you using the new 05 notes command (M-x notes) to store this sort of stuff? If not I suggest that you give it a go, this is where I put all sorts of
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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        Thomas Hundt wrote:
        > Here are my quickref notes, some of which are more useful than others.
        > Some of the stuff is out of date. Test it before you publish.
        > I'd definitely add the rest of the commandline startup options.
        > Also, explanations for more of the setup options might be nice.
        >

        Are you using the new 05 "notes" command (M-x notes) to store this sort
        of stuff? If not I suggest that you give it a go, this is where I put
        all sorts of fragments of information now, typically bits of O/S
        information, programming information, machine configuration, software
        license keys etc. It just means that there is one place that I look for
        bits of knowledge that I have accumulated. I'm not sure that anybody
        knows what "notes" does (or even that it exists).

        Jon.
      • Thomas Hundt
        First I ve heard of the notes command. Or maybe I tried it once and couldn t figure it out. I ve really, really been wanting some kind of outline-based
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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          First I've heard of the 'notes' command. Or maybe I tried it once and
          couldn't figure it out. I've really, really been wanting some kind of
          outline-based tool. Not sure if this is it. I would use such a tool
          for developing spec documents and everything else. Right now, I have to
          resort to Word, which is unfortunate. (How do you guys do structured
          documents like long specs?? I'd like to know.)

          I think I want to be able to have some text, and then a piece of
          outline, and then some more text. (At the moment, I can have a list of
          bulleted paragraphs, which ME reformats for me nicely [provided there is
          more than one bullet!], but indentation and sublists are beyond it.) So
          I can have stuff like this:

          Here we look at the Notes functionality
          - Keys
          - Plus and minus collapse/expand
          - Return toggles collapse
          - Insert adds a new note
          - Del deletes one
          - Help
          - cmd avail in detail pane
          - not even avail in tree pane
          - Buffer behavior
          - not in buffer chain??

          But since I can't do this, I have to have a couple of levels of headers,
          with varying levels of decoration to show their places in the heirarchy.
          This is not perfect. (My quickref.txt file is 10,936 lines and 348kb
          long. And I have several files like this: for example, I have one with
          all my magazine subscriptions, and one with all the maintenance info and
          logs for my motorcycle, and another [encrypted!] one with software
          license keys. So, the need for something like 'notes' definitely exists.)

          * * *

          Comments on notes mode:

          Help for the current mode ("Notes mode help", M-h) doesn't display
          anything when run from the right pane; it is not even available from the
          left pane.

          I have issues with the key bindings (so what else is new). IMO they
          should be similar to other common software, so that users don't have to
          re-learn.

          Take a look at Windows Explorer, with the folders pane on the left side
          and the contents of the current folder on the right. (View>Explorer
          Bar>Folders.) This has really nice usability. You can use the mouse,
          you can use simple arrow keys, you can use more sophisticated
          cut/copy/paste to move files around. You can select multiple items by
          holding down Ctrl and clicking one at a time; you can select a range by
          using Shift. Arrow keys move around, and in particular left/right
          arrows collapse/expand a subtree (as do +/-). Tab/S-Tab move you
          between panes, as does C-Tab/S-C-Tab. Holding down Ctrl-Shift and using
          arrows, you can pan the folder pane around.

          The notes buffer does not seem to be in the buffer list available to
          next-buffer and other commands. The only way to get back to it is to
          use the 'notes' command. (This might be because I ran the 'hide notes'
          command. I can't figure out what this does -- it's not in the help, and
          there's no unhide-notes command once hide-notes has been run, so I'm not
          sure it did anything at all.)

          I'd map the + and - keys to open and close a note subtree.

          I hate the use of the Insert key to do anything: what am I supposed to
          do on a Unix box with a dumb terminal, where there is no Insert key?
          I'd map 'i' to Insert a new note. Or maybe 'a' for Add. Or maybe
          something more Emacs-like, such as a carriage return or C-o (open-line).

          Cut-note doesn't actually do anthing until you do paste-note. This is
          very inconsistent with the way Emacs does anything else. Cut-note
          should erase the note! Or at least grey it out or mark it somehow to
          indicate it's been cut. (For that matter, how can one cut multiple notes?)

          Moving up and down through the list of notes doesn't update the contents
          pane on the right. So, I have to hit Return twice (the first time it
          displays the contents, BUT all the subsidiary notes go away because it
          also collapses the subtree; I have to hit it again to re-expand the
          subtree). Again, look at Windows Explorer: the right side pane is
          updated (after a short delay to make sure you are done navigating) to
          show the contents of whatever is highlighted on the left. (This is a
          problem in ME dirtree mode, as well. One of the nice things about ME is
          that you're not supposed to NEED the mouse. But here, clicking displays
          the detail pane immediately; using keys does not.)

          Another big difference between dirtree mode and notes mode is that in
          dirtree, folders can appear on the right side. In notes, the subnotes
          never appear on the right.

          I do like the search feature, though. Incrementally searching through
          all the notes at once is kind of cool. (Too bad it doesn't search the
          notes' titles!)

          Printing could be more powerful. Right now, it prints just the contents
          (not even the title!) of the currently-selected note. Not the whole
          tree, or a selected subset. (Let's say I have a bunch of notes on ME.
          A set of them could have fragments of code and "how-to's" on macro
          development. Another set of them could have shellscripts and
          configuration howtos. What if I wanted to print the ones on macro
          development -- only?)

          IMO the problem of structured documents is very important, and is the
          biggest thing missing from ME. There ought to be one format, which
          could export to help files, word-processor documents, pseudocode... any
          number of things. There needs to be numbering of sections, and
          references (links) to sections. And a table of contents. Like Word
          has. Of course, that's what most of the world uses, and it works most
          of the time (if you don't mind a few bugs). If you guys don't feel like
          writing a word processor, I won't hold it against you :-)

          -Th


          >>Here are my quickref notes, some of which are more useful than others.
          >
          > Are you using the new 05 "notes" command (M-x notes) to store this sort
          > of stuff? If not I suggest that you give it a go, this is where I put
          > all sorts of fragments of information now, typically bits of O/S
          > information, programming information, machine configuration, software
          > license keys etc. It just means that there is one place that I look for
          > bits of knowledge that I have accumulated. I'm not sure that anybody
          > knows what "notes" does (or even that it exists).
          >
          > Jon.
        • Christof Boeckler
          Hey Thomas, although I can t say much about your remarks on the notes mode, maybe I have something useful regarding your last wish. ... Take a look at
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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            Hey Thomas,

            although I can't say much about your remarks on the notes mode, maybe I
            have something useful regarding your last wish.

            Thomas Hundt schrieb:
            > [...]
            > IMO the problem of structured documents is very important, and is the
            > biggest thing missing from ME. There ought to be one format, which
            > could export to help files, word-processor documents, pseudocode... any
            > number of things. There needs to be numbering of sections, and
            > references (links) to sections. And a table of contents. Like Word
            > has. Of course, that's what most of the world uses, and it works most
            > of the time (if you don't mind a few bugs). If you guys don't feel like
            > writing a word processor, I won't hold it against you :-)
            >
            > -Th

            Take a look at http://txt2tags.sourceforge.net/! It seems to be exactly
            the kind of language you are looking for: 1 source can be converted to
            multiple target formats ((x)HTML, LaTeX, man-page, soon: RTF!). I use it
            for simple, but structured webpages. (And it does the table of contents
            there.) You can even do the linking for apropriate targets ... it's fun!

            The only thing that's missing: a MicroEmacs mode for it ...

            Gruß / Regards
            Christof

            --
            http://home.in.tum.de/~boeckler/ http://www.spiegel.de/zwiebelfisch
            Da sie sich für weise hielten, sind sie zu Narren geworden. Rö 1,22
          • Thomas Hundt
            Thanks but there are many such languages... (this one looks similar to what is used on Wikis)... the whole point is that I want there to be an editor mode for
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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              Thanks but there are many such languages... (this one looks similar to
              what is used on Wikis)... the whole point is that I want there to be an
              editor mode for it. I could easily whip up something in Perl to take
              any arbitrary "language" and format it any way I want. The hard part is
              making the editor display it nicely.

              The idea being: a structured format that is somewhat WYSIWYG, because
              probably half the time it will be viewed in the editor.

              The other thing that would be nice, and which I don't see ever being
              able to get from ME, is being to have diagrams, drawings, and sketches.

              -Th



              Christof Boeckler wrote:

              >>IMO the problem of structured documents is very important, and is the
              >>biggest thing missing from ME. There ought to be one format, which

              > Take a look at http://txt2tags.sourceforge.net/! It seems to be exactly
              > the kind of language you are looking for: 1 source can be converted to
              > multiple target formats ((x)HTML, LaTeX, man-page, soon: RTF!). I use it
              > for simple, but structured webpages. (And it does the table of contents
              > there.) You can even do the linking for apropriate targets ... it's fun!
              >
              > The only thing that's missing: a MicroEmacs mode for it ...
            • Steven Phillips
              A while ago I created a similar format called JST (see hkjst.emf), based loosely on Jon s Doc mode, JST had the advantage of being able to generate html & rtf,
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 29, 2005
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                A while ago I created a similar format called JST (see hkjst.emf), based
                loosely on Jon's Doc mode, JST had the advantage of being able to generate
                html & rtf, you could also create tables, links, images, and source code from
                many languages which would all be hilighted; it also generated a table of
                contents.

                However, it never took off and it fell into disuse.

                Recently I have been looking at the wiki text formats which are similar in
                concept and thought I really should convert JST to use a 'standard' text
                markup format. But that's the problem, there does not seem to be a single
                recognized standard, only lots of good suggestions (like txt2tags and JST).

                So if we can agree on a standard then I'll port the JST hook and support over
                to that format.

                txt2tags does look good, the format seems to be simple enough to remember and
                not get in the way but powerful enough to do most things (doesn't support
                hilighting of source code, only verbatim sections which is understandable). It
                has the further advantage of being able to generate 10 different formats and
                is under GPL.

                Are there any better formats out there?

                Steve

                > Subject: [jasspa] notes feature
                > From: Thomas Hundt <thundt@...>
                > Date: Saturday, October 29, 2005, 7:53:57 PM
                > To: jasspa@yahoogroups.com
                > Thanks but there are many such languages... (this one looks similar to
                > what is used on Wikis)... the whole point is that I want there to be an
                > editor mode for it. I could easily whip up something in Perl to take
                > any arbitrary "language" and format it any way I want. The hard part is
                > making the editor display it nicely.

                > The idea being: a structured format that is somewhat WYSIWYG, because
                > probably half the time it will be viewed in the editor.

                > The other thing that would be nice, and which I don't see ever being
                > able to get from ME, is being to have diagrams, drawings, and sketches.

                > -Th



                > Christof Boeckler wrote:

                >>>IMO the problem of structured documents is very important, and is the
                >>>biggest thing missing from ME. There ought to be one format, which

                >> Take a look at http://txt2tags.sourceforge.net/! It seems to be exactly
                >> the kind of language you are looking for: 1 source can be converted to
                >> multiple target formats ((x)HTML, LaTeX, man-page, soon: RTF!). I use it
                >> for simple, but structured webpages. (And it does the table of contents
                >> there.) You can even do the linking for apropriate targets ... it's fun!
                >>
                >> The only thing that's missing: a MicroEmacs mode for it ...



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              • Christof Boeckler
                ... I vote for txt2tags. ... I haven t found any. ... Gruß / Regards Christof -- http://home.in.tum.de/~boeckler/ http://www.spiegel.de/zwiebelfisch Da sie
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 1, 2005
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                  Steven Phillips schrieb:
                  > So if we can agree on a standard then I'll port the JST hook and support over
                  > to that format.

                  I vote for txt2tags.

                  > Are there any better formats out there?

                  I haven't found any.

                  > Steve

                  Gruß / Regards
                  Christof

                  --
                  http://home.in.tum.de/~boeckler/ http://www.spiegel.de/zwiebelfisch
                  Da sie sich für weise hielten, sind sie zu Narren geworden. Rö 1,22
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