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Re: [jasspa] CUA support - update

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  • Thomas Hundt
    I m against spending any effort making ME more like Notepad. I think if we made ME at all CUI-approximating, we can just rename it Micro Notepad, because it
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 15, 2004
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      I'm against spending any effort making ME more like Notepad. I think if
      we made ME at all CUI-approximating, we can just rename it Micro
      Notepad, because it won't be Emacs-like at all, anymore. The keys just
      about conflict 100%. I would never use it this way. I like being able
      to move around in my document using keyboard keys!

      And there are bigger usability fish to fry: The support
      for fill-in forms (e.g., User Prefs) is just not really usable
      for the non-hacker and super confusing (if you aren't running in
      GUI mode with a mouse to fall back on). And the online help
      (that pop-up box!!) is almost as bad. Those problems, alas, drag
      down a lot of good work. It's in these area that I really wish ME were
      more Windows-like. (Windows Logo requirements like being able to use
      all GUIs even without a mouse, using keys like Ctrl-Tab to flip through
      tabbed dialogs, use of space to check boxes and drop down lists, and
      support for OK/Cancel and not using Enter for anything except OK.
      Windows has an excellent set of standards for those things.)

      -Tom Hundt




      Phillips, Steven wrote:

      > Okay, so I started to play around with this and I thought the first
      > thing to do would be to get a definitive list of key bindings for the
      > CUA standard, simple you might think? Ha! Some bloody standard! Find
      > Again? C-g or F3, Goto (line) often mapped to C-g, Replace C-h or
      > C-r, C-w is not bound to close buffer on any CUA app or doc I've
      > found yet and so it goes on.
      >
      > So those CUA standard are we trying to support? I think we need a
      > base CUA editor/app on which to base our support, that way we can all
      > contribute constructively to this rather then go round in circles.
      >
      > So Gabriel, as the instigator of this what app do you recommend?
      >
      > Once we have the basics in place we may need to create several CUA
      > versions, CUA (original IBM), CUA (Windows), CUA (Windows Word) etc.
      > Don't you just love standards!
      >
      > Steve
    • Box-Plot
      ... think if ... just ... able ... were ... use ... through ... It would be great if jasspa s User Setup and other configs could be done just like on Emacs
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 15, 2004
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        --- In jasspa@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Hundt <thundt@s...> wrote:
        > I'm against spending any effort making ME more like Notepad. I
        think if
        > we made ME at all CUI-approximating, we can just rename it Micro
        > Notepad, because it won't be Emacs-like at all, anymore. The keys
        just
        > about conflict 100%. I would never use it this way. I like being
        able
        > to move around in my document using keyboard keys!
        >
        > And there are bigger usability fish to fry: The support
        > for fill-in forms (e.g., User Prefs) is just not really usable
        > for the non-hacker and super confusing (if you aren't running in
        > GUI mode with a mouse to fall back on). And the online help
        > (that pop-up box!!) is almost as bad. Those problems, alas, drag
        > down a lot of good work. It's in these area that I really wish ME
        were
        > more Windows-like. (Windows Logo requirements like being able to
        use
        > all GUIs even without a mouse, using keys like Ctrl-Tab to flip
        through
        > tabbed dialogs, use of space to check boxes and drop down lists, and
        > support for OK/Cancel and not using Enter for anything except OK.
        > Windows has an excellent set of standards for those things.)

        It would be great if jasspa's User Setup and other configs could be
        done just like on Emacs' original M-x customize. Very keyboard- AND
        mouse-friendly.

        If you people want a good notepad replacement with CUA support, why
        don't you try SciTE or it's no-need-to-install brother Sc1? Find them
        on http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html , and read the docs for
        customizations.
      • Jon Green
        ... I would not worry about this. I never use CUA modes and can type Emacs commands into M$ Word with a devastating effects (I now use primitive Emacs bindings
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 16, 2004
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          Thomas Hundt wrote:
          > I'm against spending any effort making ME more like Notepad. I think if
          > we made ME at all CUI-approximating, we can just rename it Micro
          > Notepad, because it won't be Emacs-like at all, anymore. The keys just
          > about conflict 100%. I would never use it this way. I like being able
          > to move around in my document using keyboard keys!
          >

          I would not worry about this. I never use CUA modes and can type
          Emacs commands into M$ Word with a devastating effects (I
          now use primitive Emacs bindings in Word to stop me destroying
          documents or printing them inadvertenly using ^p). If it is
          an emulation mode that has to be enabled separately then
          that is fine by me.

          > And there are bigger usability fish to fry: The support
          > for fill-in forms (e.g., User Prefs) is just not really usable
          > for the non-hacker and super confusing (if you aren't running in
          > GUI mode with a mouse to fall back on). And the online help
          > (that pop-up box!!) is almost as bad. Those problems, alas, drag
          > down a lot of good work. It's in these area that I really wish ME were
          > more Windows-like. (Windows Logo requirements like being able to use
          > all GUIs even without a mouse, using keys like Ctrl-Tab to flip through
          > tabbed dialogs, use of space to check boxes and drop down lists, and
          > support for OK/Cancel and not using Enter for anything except OK.
          > Windows has an excellent set of standards for those things.)
          >

          I certainly agree with this - does require some cleaning.
          It is also a real pain on a termcap terminal when you have
          restricted terminal capabilities because of the highlighting.
          Must admit I do not use the help box, I just go straight into
          the help pages (M-x help) and click/tab around - usually straight
          to the glossary and then search - so I do not really notice.

          Would standardizing the GUI key bindings be sufficient ?
          Should we consider a move to a native GUI for dialog boxes etc. ?
          a) Is all of this effort worth it ?
          b) Would MicroEmacs become "BloatedMicroEmacs" or "MegaEmacs" ?
          c) Would it be more frustrating to use ?
          d) Would it make it more usable ?

          I guess the real basic questions I should be asking are:-

          Why do you use MicroEmacs ?
          What do you want as a user from MicroEmacs ?

          Amazing, I cannot ever recall asking these questions and
          I've never seen any answers to these questions.

          Jon.

          > -Tom Hundt
          >
          >
          >
        • Bob Paddock
          ... No. ... Yes. There are lots of Emacs variations out there. Keep MicroEmacs good at what it is good at, being small, fast, and enduring. ... Probably.
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 16, 2004
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            On Saturday 16 October 2004 07:36 am, Jon Green wrote:

            > Would standardizing the GUI key bindings be sufficient ?
            > Should we consider a move to a native GUI for dialog boxes etc. ?
            > a) Is all of this effort worth it ?

            No.

            > b) Would MicroEmacs become "BloatedMicroEmacs" or "MegaEmacs" ?

            Yes. There are lots of Emacs variations out there. Keep MicroEmacs good at
            what it is good at, being small, fast, and enduring.

            > c) Would it be more frustrating to use ?

            Probably. I'm usually using it when there is no GUI running yet.

            > d) Would it make it more usable ?
            >
            > I guess the real basic questions I should be asking are:-
            >
            > Why do you use MicroEmacs ?
            > What do you want as a user from MicroEmacs ?

            I use NanoEmacs to bring up new systems, like Gentoo where they stick you
            with that sucky 'nano' editor in the base boot system. *SMALL* and easy to
            build is what it is all about at this point. Eventually as the system gets
            father into the build process I bring up full MicroEmacs then the full
            FSF/GNU Emacs.

            NanoEmacs is small enough to stick in a RAM disk and not notice then
            you end up with instant load times.

            > d) Would it make it more usable ?

            They one thing I would like to see is that in NE/ME that the key bindings that
            are not already spoken for match those of FSF/GNU Emacs.

            IE:
            Meta-% gets Quire-Replace
            Ctrl-SPACE sets the mark

            Yes, it is easy enough to do myself in the config files but if their not
            already used when not try to match FSF/GNU Emacs? Might get more converts
            that way.



            --
                  http://www.softwaresafety.net/
             http://www.unusualresearch.com/ http://www.bpaddock.com/
          • Jon Green
            ... bindings that ... Hi Bob, Thanks for the feedback. With respect to the bindings then we ll fix these up as suggested. Changes applied for these two follow.
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 16, 2004
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              Bob Paddock wrote:
              > On Saturday 16 October 2004 07:36 am, Jon Green wrote:
              >
              > They one thing I would like to see is that in NE/ME that the key
              bindings that
              > are not already spoken for match those of FSF/GNU Emacs.
              >
              > IE:
              > Meta-% gets Quire-Replace
              > Ctrl-SPACE sets the mark
              >
              > Yes, it is easy enough to do myself in the config files but if their not
              > already used when not try to match FSF/GNU Emacs? Might get more converts
              > that way.

              Hi Bob,

              Thanks for the feedback.

              With respect to the bindings then we'll fix these
              up as suggested. Changes applied for these two
              follow.

              Regards
              Jon.


              Meta-% fixed as follows (make sure it is in the
              correct position or will not work):-

              cvs diff -c -w ebind.def

              Index: ebind.def
              ===================================================================
              RCS file: /usr/cvs/repme/me/src/ebind.def,v
              retrieving revision 2.9
              diff -c -w -r2.9 ebind.def
              *** ebind.def 13 Mar 2004 01:41:43 -0000 2.9
              --- ebind.def 16 Oct 2004 22:30:26 -0000
              ***************
              *** 139,144 ****
              --- 139,145 ----
              #if MEOPT_SPAWN
              DEFBIND (ME_PREFIX1|'!', 0, CK_PIPCMD)
              #endif
              + DEFBIND (ME_PREFIX1|'%', 0, CK_QREP)
              DEFBIND (ME_PREFIX1|'.', 0, CK_SETMRK)
              DEFBIND (ME_PREFIX1|'/', 0, CK_EXEFIL)
              DEFBIND (ME_PREFIX1|'<', 0, CK_GOBOF)

              *****CVS exited with code 1*****


              Ctrl-Space. The binding exists, however under Termcap
              you are not getting anything back becauset this is the
              NULL character. Here is a patch that gets you that binding,
              need to sort this out properly for the next release.

              cvs diff -c -w unixterm.c

              Index: unixterm.c
              ===================================================================
              RCS file: /usr/cvs/repme/me/src/unixterm.c,v
              retrieving revision 2.45
              diff -c -w -r2.45 unixterm.c
              *** unixterm.c 2 Oct 2004 10:39:39 -0000 2.45
              --- unixterm.c 16 Oct 2004 22:26:06 -0000
              ***************
              *** 3843,3850 ****
              --- 3843,3859 ----
              #endif /* _USEPOLL */
              /* There is some data present. Read it */
              if(read(meStdin,&cc,1) > 0)
              + {
              + /* C-Space is returned as "\x00" (or ^@) or nul. This is a
              + * horrible character to translate so we do it here
              before we
              + * enter the system. There is not an easy way to add this
              + * translation. */
              + if (cc == '\0')
              + addKeyToBuffer (ME_CONTROL|' ');
              + else
              addKeyToBuffer(cc) ;
              }
              + }

              if(alarmState & meALARM_WINSIZE)
              {

              *****CVS exited with code 1*****
            • Steven Phillips
              Scintilla does seem to be a good editor to base CUA support on, it has more key bindings than any other I have seen and they seem to conform to the general
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 17, 2004
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                Scintilla does seem to be a good editor to base CUA support on, it has more
                key bindings than any other I have seen and they seem to conform to the
                general standard.

                I've created new cut copy paste macros which work of the hilight region rather
                than the set-mark to cursor region, this allows proper support for things like
                Select All (C-a). I have also made this an emulation so it sits properly in
                ME. I'll tidy up the bindings and post soon,

                Steve

                > Subject: [jasspa] Re: CUA support - update
                > From: Box-Plot <poxblot@...>
                > Date: Friday, October 15, 2004, 10:04:05 PM
                > To: jasspa@yahoogroups.com


                > --- In jasspa@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Hundt <thundt@s...> wrote:
                >> I'm against spending any effort making ME more like Notepad. I
                > think if
                >> we made ME at all CUI-approximating, we can just rename it Micro
                >> Notepad, because it won't be Emacs-like at all, anymore. The keys
                > just
                >> about conflict 100%. I would never use it this way. I like being
                > able
                >> to move around in my document using keyboard keys!
                >>
                >> And there are bigger usability fish to fry: The support
                >> for fill-in forms (e.g., User Prefs) is just not really usable
                >> for the non-hacker and super confusing (if you aren't running in
                >> GUI mode with a mouse to fall back on). And the online help
                >> (that pop-up box!!) is almost as bad. Those problems, alas, drag
                >> down a lot of good work. It's in these area that I really wish ME
                > were
                >> more Windows-like. (Windows Logo requirements like being able to
                > use
                >> all GUIs even without a mouse, using keys like Ctrl-Tab to flip
                > through
                >> tabbed dialogs, use of space to check boxes and drop down lists, and
                >> support for OK/Cancel and not using Enter for anything except OK.
                >> Windows has an excellent set of standards for those things.)

                > It would be great if jasspa's User Setup and other configs could be
                > done just like on Emacs' original M-x customize. Very keyboard- AND
                > mouse-friendly.

                > If you people want a good notepad replacement with CUA support, why
                > don't you try SciTE or it's no-need-to-install brother Sc1? Find them
                > on http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html , and read the docs for
                > customizations.








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              • Steven Phillips
                I largely agree with Bob but a GUI to some commands are definitely worthwhile, I regularly use user-setup, CVS tools, spell-buffer, buffer-setup, scheme-editor
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 17, 2004
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                  I largely agree with Bob but a GUI to some commands are definitely worthwhile,
                  I regularly use user-setup, CVS tools, spell-buffer, buffer-setup, scheme-editor and
                  (dare I say it) the help!

                  Out of these only the spell dialog and CVS tools are for editing files,
                  the rest I use for setting up ME itself. The main strength of ME is its suit
                  of powerful key-driven tools which make editing files a lot quicker than using
                  a mouse.

                  To me it is more important that I get the same editor on all platforms, this
                  generally avoids the frustration I get whenever I have to use word and the
                  keys just done work! Also I don't think ME's OSD interface would lend itself
                  to a X, Motif, MFC GUI interface, its very quirky and specific to ME so this
                  would require a lot of work and for little gain.

                  But I, too, get frustrated when using the dialogs as the keys are not as good
                  as they could or should be. Improving these would help.

                  Steve

                  > Subject: [jasspa] CUA support - update
                  > From: Bob Paddock <yahoogroups@...>
                  > Date: Saturday, October 16, 2004, 3:12:21 PM
                  > To: jasspa@yahoogroups.com

                  > On Saturday 16 October 2004 07:36 am, Jon Green wrote:

                  >> Would standardizing the GUI key bindings be sufficient ?
                  >> Should we consider a move to a native GUI for dialog boxes etc. ?
                  >> a) Is all of this effort worth it ?

                  > No.

                  >> b) Would MicroEmacs become "BloatedMicroEmacs" or "MegaEmacs" ?

                  > Yes. There are lots of Emacs variations out there. Keep MicroEmacs good at
                  > what it is good at, being small, fast, and enduring.

                  >> c) Would it be more frustrating to use ?

                  > Probably. I'm usually using it when there is no GUI running yet.

                  >> d) Would it make it more usable ?
                  >>
                  >> I guess the real basic questions I should be asking are:-
                  >>
                  >> Why do you use MicroEmacs ?
                  >> What do you want as a user from MicroEmacs ?

                  > I use NanoEmacs to bring up new systems, like Gentoo where they stick you
                  > with that sucky 'nano' editor in the base boot system. *SMALL* and easy to
                  > build is what it is all about at this point. Eventually as the system gets
                  > father into the build process I bring up full MicroEmacs then the full
                  > FSF/GNU Emacs.

                  > NanoEmacs is small enough to stick in a RAM disk and not notice then
                  > you end up with instant load times.

                  >> d) Would it make it more usable ?

                  > They one thing I would like to see is that in NE/ME that the key bindings that
                  > are not already spoken for match those of FSF/GNU Emacs.

                  > IE:
                  > Meta-% gets Quire-Replace
                  > Ctrl-SPACE sets the mark

                  > Yes, it is easy enough to do myself in the config files but if their not
                  > already used when not try to match FSF/GNU Emacs? Might get more converts
                  > that way.
                • first last
                  I know that the CUA standard really only affects cut/copy/paste, open, save, find and a couple more. I don t mean the mode to be a definitive solution, just a
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 17, 2004
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                    I know that the CUA standard really only affects cut/copy/paste, open,
                    save, find and a couple more.

                    I don't mean the mode to be a definitive solution, just a stopgap so
                    people can use a decent editor without having to learn all the emacs
                    keybindings or have consistency with other applications (in my case,
                    mylqlcc uses C-e for "execute query", imagine how dangerous it is to
                    use ME's "end of line").

                    One of the main things that ME has that most other Unix/multiplatform
                    editor is that you can configure most things with a GUI. Try
                    configuring scite (just one example), you need to edit the
                    configuration file and it is not that easy. You can't expect a newbie
                    to do that (you can't expect it from me either, I don't have that much
                    time to waste configuring a text editor, that's why I try every single
                    editor I can get my hands on and always come back to ME, it just works
                    for 90% of the things I want to do).

                    Apps that use C-w to close tab (buffer): mozilla, konqueror,
                    openoffice. Many others (kate, mysqlcc) use C-f4, but I put that one to
                    "close window"... as you said, many things are not exactly "set".

                    The C-h to replace is also one of the possibilities. I am just more
                    used to C-r. F3 to "search again" seems to be quite common (Most MS
                    products, Mozilla).

                    In the end, I reckon that we should use the MS ones, as they are the
                    ones that people are most likely to have used before. Not all options
                    need binded to a key, as I expect that most CUA users are also mouse
                    users (not that it is bad that they are).

                    Well, just my opinion, now you're free to ignore me completely :)

                    Gabriel





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                  • Thomas Hundt
                    ... Well that would help, a lot. I care about these MUCH more than what key does copy and what key does paste (as, after all, I can change those myself). Tabs
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 17, 2004
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                      >> Would standardizing the GUI key bindings be sufficient ?

                      Well that would help, a lot. I care about these MUCH more than what key
                      does copy and what key does paste (as, after all, I can change those
                      myself).

                      Tabs should move between grouped elements
                      (tab order!), arrow keys between controls in the group (except text
                      boxes, where you have to tab out of them), ctrl-tab moves between tabs
                      on a tabbed dialog, space selects radiobuttons and checkboxes, enter
                      equals "OK" and dismisses the box, Esc equals "Cancel" and also
                      dismisses the box. (Since this is Emacs, ^G should do the same.) Users
                      have suffered for years while Microsoft got this right. (Well,
                      okay, I think Microsoft actually stole most of it from Apple and Xerox,
                      who spent a few bucks developing it.)

                      Example of a text-based dialog: 'edit' under Win2k et al. Menus are
                      very similar to ME, (only, Alt works and Esc gets you out of them, and
                      "..." is the cue for menu items that pop up dialogs, and when I hit Alt
                      to get to the menu [F1 in ME] I can actually see where the cursor is);
                      dialogs
                      have controls like Windows ( "(.)" for radio buttons, "[X]" for checkboxes
                      that are familiar to users -- no Y/N boxes.) Compare their color setup
                      to ME's scheme editor, which I don't fully understand and am afraid to
                      use. (Does "Install" save the changes? Where?? How does that differ
                      from "Save"? What does the "[ Text ]" button do and why do colors
                      change when I click it? Why does navigation involve not hitting Alt?
                      Which items are dropdown lists -- there is no cue?)

                      The Jasspa work on building dialogs is most impressive; it just needs to
                      be cleaned up a bit to be more user-friendly. I don't think it's a good
                      idea to throw it away, at all!

                      >> Should we consider a move to a native GUI for dialog boxes etc. ?

                      I don't consider it necessary. You still have to support the non-GUI
                      user (and in fact, this is a big reason why I use the thing, because it
                      ALWAYS works).

                      >> b) Would MicroEmacs become "BloatedMicroEmacs" or "MegaEmacs" ?

                      Don't let this happen!

                      >> c) Would it be more frustrating to use ?

                      With a GUI? Yes. Just fix the dialog behavior and it will be
                      un-frustrating for everyone.

                      > Probably. I'm usually using it when there is no GUI running yet.

                      I count on it being available with or without a GUI. Reliability and
                      availability are more important than anything else.

                      >> d) Would it make it more usable ?

                      GUI -- no. We're not talking pretty fonts and Photoshopping here.
                      We're slinging code! (Though I would not object to boldface fonts for
                      language keywords ;-).)

                      >> I guess the real basic questions I should be asking are:-
                      >>
                      >> Why do you use MicroEmacs ? What do you want as a user from
                      >> MicroEmacs ?

                      I really want to have the functionality provided by GNU Emacs, but don't
                      want to actually use it. It's bloated, I don't know how to program it,
                      there's a million things going on in the background, and all those
                      hamsters running in cages behind the scenes make me nervous. At heart
                      I'm an engineer, not a "computer scientist", and so Lisp makes me crazy.

                      ME does provide most of that functionality, works everywhere, and is
                      more or less transparent in its program structure. (Well, except for
                      the OSD code, which I haven't delved into yet.)


                      > They one thing I would like to see is that in NE/ME that the key
                      > bindings that are not already spoken for match those of FSF/GNU
                      > Emacs.

                      The key word here is "Emacs". I want all "Emacs" editors I use to have
                      the same keybindings, if at all possible. I have spent a lot of time
                      getting ME to act more like GNU. Any discrepancies are a waste of time.

                      (Example of a bad sitation: Outlook uses ^N to start a new e-mail.
                      Mozilla uses ^M to start a new mail. Drives me crazy! Thankfully both
                      use ^Enter to send.)

                      If I'm going to memorize a key binding, I want it to work in as many
                      places as possible! I want to pick and choose what bad habits I get
                      into. For example, GNU does not seem to support Alt getting to the
                      menus. But all of Windows does, so I'm pretty happy to have them in ME.


                      > IE: Meta-% gets Quire-Replace Ctrl-SPACE sets the mark

                      Yes, I set both of these too, a long time ago. And undo! (^Z) And
                      Shift-Insert! I have about 60 lines of key binding code in my ini file.
                      Many of them are unbinding of dangerous functions from keys I might
                      hit, expecting a different command. (Example: Esc ^K. Especially if you
                      hit ^G next.) Or just ones of dubious value (^X-x, ^X-w). In looking
                      at them just now, I have to say Jasspa has gotten a lot better and
                      closer to GNU over the years. A lot of my rebindings are no longer
                      necessary.

                      > Yes, it is easy enough to do myself in the config files but if their
                      > not already used when not try to match FSF/GNU Emacs? Might get more
                      > converts that way.

                      Similarly we can start talking about mouse behavior. Try Ctrl-clicking
                      in GNU; it brings up a menu of buffers. ME has that functionality in
                      the (much harder to navigate)
                      rightclick on the modeline and then navigate a menu to get to the list
                      of buffers. I haven't learned how the whole mouse/menu (OSD) structure
                      works yet and so can't program this myself, but I'm sure it's possible.
                      And without a GUI!


                      --
                      Thomas Hundt
                    • Box-Plot
                      ... (...) ... file. ... might ... you ... looking ... Can you please post your rebindings? I think that it would be good (at least for me) to learn some new
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 18, 2004
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                        --- In jasspa@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Hundt <thundt@s...> wrote:

                        (...)

                        > Yes, I set both of these too, a long time ago. And undo! (^Z) And
                        > Shift-Insert! I have about 60 lines of key binding code in my ini
                        file.
                        > Many of them are unbinding of dangerous functions from keys I
                        might
                        > hit, expecting a different command. (Example: Esc ^K. Especially if
                        you
                        > hit ^G next.) Or just ones of dubious value (^X-x, ^X-w). In
                        looking
                        > at them just now, I have to say Jasspa has gotten a lot better and
                        > closer to GNU over the years. A lot of my rebindings are no longer
                        > necessary.

                        Can you please post your rebindings?
                        I think that it would be good (at least for me) to learn some "new"
                        keybindings, cause i'm new to emacs and similar ones like jasspa's.

                        Thanks!

                        --
                        Box-Plot
                        --
                      • Box-Plot
                        ... Probably yes. I used RHIDE once, and it was pure DOS and fully configurable with the keyboard. jasspa s actual user setup is quite nice, but someone
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 18, 2004
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                          --- In jasspa@yahoogroups.com, Jon Green <jon@j...> wrote:

                          > Would standardizing the GUI key bindings be sufficient ?

                          Probably yes. I used RHIDE once, and it was pure DOS and fully
                          configurable with the keyboard.
                          jasspa's actual user setup is quite nice, but someone already
                          mentioned it's non-standard things, and I undoubtely agree.

                          > Should we consider a move to a native GUI for dialog boxes etc. ?
                          > a) Is all of this effort worth it ?

                          Please no! No need for that!

                          > b) Would MicroEmacs become "BloatedMicroEmacs" or "MegaEmacs" ?

                          Yes.

                          > c) Would it be more frustrating to use ?
                          > d) Would it make it more usable ?

                          For newbies, these changes would be good. But I don't think we want
                          the new user to get used to menus -- everything should be keyboard-
                          driven.

                          > Why do you use MicroEmacs ?

                          I needed the smallest windows' emacs that I could find. jasspa has 4MB
                          (~1MB zipped up) and no need to install. For me, it is good enough.

                          > What do you want as a user from MicroEmacs ?

                          I wanted Emacs-like editing on windows, with the smaller possible
                          installer (no installing and small .zip file is even better), to put
                          on a mini-CD. XEmacs's netinstaller is 97KB, but what if I don't have
                          internet?

                          --
                          Box-Plot
                          --
                        • Box-Plot
                          ... The problem appears when they try to use GNU Emacs/XEmacs and find out that it completely different. ... multiplatform ... newbie ... much ... single ...
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 18, 2004
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                            --- In jasspa@yahoogroups.com, first last <prelude_2_murder@y...>
                            wrote:

                            > I don't mean the mode to be a definitive solution, just a stopgap so
                            > people can use a decent editor without having to learn all the emacs
                            > keybindings or have consistency with other applications (in my case,
                            > mylqlcc uses C-e for "execute query", imagine how dangerous it is to
                            > use ME's "end of line").

                            The problem appears when they try to use GNU Emacs/XEmacs and find out
                            that it completely different.

                            > One of the main things that ME has that most other Unix/
                            multiplatform
                            > editor is that you can configure most things with a GUI. Try
                            > configuring scite (just one example), you need to edit the
                            > configuration file and it is not that easy. You can't expect a
                            newbie
                            > to do that (you can't expect it from me either, I don't have that
                            much
                            > time to waste configuring a text editor, that's why I try every
                            single
                            > editor I can get my hands on and always come back to ME, it just
                            works
                            > for 90% of the things I want to do).

                            If someone can't configure SciTE, they can try Notepad2, Metapad,
                            EditPad Lite...
                            SciTE is just between GUI users and keyboard-driven editors -- has a
                            decent GUI, but can become much more powerful if you take some time to
                            configure it. IMHO, lots of "advanced" configuration should be hidden
                            from the common user, or else he'll get lost between tons of
                            configuration options.

                            > Apps that use C-w to close tab (buffer): mozilla, konqueror,
                            > openoffice. Many others (kate, mysqlcc) use C-f4, but I put that one
                            to
                            > "close window"... as you said, many things are not exactly "set".

                            C-F4 should do the same as C-w: close a tab or window.
                            A-F4 should exit the application completely.

                            --
                            Box-Plot
                            --
                          • Steven Phillips
                            Attached is a second cut of cua support, the zip file contains an updated userstp.emf which defines a new Emulation CUA which you must select to enable. The
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 19, 2004
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                              Attached is a second cut of cua support, the zip file contains an updated
                              userstp.emf which defines a new Emulation "CUA" which you must select to
                              enable. The mecua.emf is executed during the main setup process and changes
                              all the key bindings, osdcua.emf is executed before the main menu is opened
                              for the first time and it corrects the main menus behaviour and key binding
                              list.

                              If like me you are very dangerous when let loose in ME with CUA bindings the
                              best way to play with this is to create a new user using the -u option and
                              simply set the Emulation in user-setup and restart me, i.e. do:

                              me32 -u cuauser

                              And remember: Abort (C-g) is now esc, to execute a command (esc x) is A-c and
                              to enter a numeric argument (e.g. esc 123) press A-a 123 etc.

                              I am also interested in creating an emulation for GNU Emacs, this will
                              probably consist mainly of key binding corrections, additional bindings and
                              wrapper macros to fix command name differences.

                              However having not used Emacs for years I am no longer in a position to know
                              what the main annoyances of using ME are from an Emacs users point of view. If
                              someone can generate such a list and send it to me it would be most helpful.

                              Thanks,

                              Steve
                            • Bob Paddock
                              ... I ll see what I can come up with. --       http://www.softwaresafety.net/  http://www.unusualresearch.com/ http://www.bpaddock.com/
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 23, 2004
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                                > However having not used Emacs for years I am no longer in a position to
                                > know what the main annoyances of using ME are from an Emacs users point of
                                > view. If someone can generate such a list and send it to me it would be
                                > most helpful.

                                I'll see what I can come up with.

                                --
                                      http://www.softwaresafety.net/
                                 http://www.unusualresearch.com/ http://www.bpaddock.com/
                              • Bob Paddock
                                ... Major one is that Control-Open-Bracket (^[) is not the same as Meta ( ). Ctrl-Home go to top of current file. Ctrl-End go to bottom of current file.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                  On Tuesday 19 October 2004 05:44 pm, Steven Phillips wrote:

                                  > However having not used Emacs for years I am no longer in a position to
                                  > know what the main annoyances of using ME are from an Emacs users point of
                                  > view.

                                  Major one is that Control-Open-Bracket (^[) is not the same as Meta (<ESC>).

                                  Ctrl-Home go to top of current file.

                                  Ctrl-End go to bottom of current file.

                                  ESC-% Replace.

                                  --
                                        http://www.softwaresafety.net/
                                   http://www.unusualresearch.com/ http://www.bpaddock.com/
                                • Thomas Hundt
                                  Oh it just slays me that in GNU, Home and End go to the top and bottom of the file. That s different from EVERY other windows app. -Th
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                    Oh it just slays me that in GNU, Home and End go to the top and bottom
                                    of the file. That's different from EVERY other windows app.

                                    -Th


                                    Bob Paddock wrote:

                                    > On Tuesday 19 October 2004 05:44 pm, Steven Phillips wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>However having not used Emacs for years I am no longer in a position to
                                    >>know what the main annoyances of using ME are from an Emacs users point of
                                    >>view.
                                    >
                                    > Major one is that Control-Open-Bracket (^[) is not the same as Meta (<ESC>).
                                    >
                                    > Ctrl-Home go to top of current file.
                                    > Ctrl-End go to bottom of current file.
                                    > ESC-% Replace.
                                  • Thomas Hundt
                                    Somebody asked for some key bindings. Here is my current set. Some of the unbindings, in particular, may be obsolete by now. Don t ask me why I did half of
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                      Somebody asked for some key bindings. Here is my current set. Some of
                                      the unbindings, in particular, may be obsolete by now.

                                      Don't ask me why I did half of these. There must've been a good reason
                                      at the time! :-) Some of them are GNU-ish, a lot are my own crazy
                                      adaptations, for speed and convenience. (E.g., MDI ones -- this is a
                                      Windows thing.)

                                      Enjoy

                                      ;-----
                                      ; Key bindings (use !force to prevent err if already unbound)
                                      ;-----
                                      !force global-bind-key beginning-of-line "home"
                                      !force global-bind-key end-of-line "end"
                                      !force global-bind-key beginning-of-buffer "C-home"
                                      !force global-bind-key end-of-buffer "C-end"
                                      !force global-bind-key help "f1"
                                      !force global-bind-key backward-kill-word "S-backspace"
                                      !force global-bind-key goto-matching-fence "f2"
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-up "f5"
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-down "f6"
                                      !force 65536 global-bind-key osd "f1" ; access menu bar
                                      ;; !force global-bind-key file-browser "f9" ; usually F10
                                      ;;!force 1 global-bind-key scroll-down "C-c"
                                      ;;!force 1 global-bind-key scroll-up "A-C"
                                      !force global-bind-key scroll-up "A-V"
                                      !force global-bind-key isearch-backward "C-r"
                                      !force global-bind-key isearch-forward "C-s"
                                      !force global-bind-key isearch-forward "C-]" ; works if ^S
                                      doesn't
                                      !force global-bind-key undo "C-z"
                                      !force global-bind-key kill-line "C-k"

                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-left "A-left" ; Win
                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-right "A-right"
                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-left "esc left" ; Unix
                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-right "esc right"
                                      !force 5 global-bind-key scroll-up "A-up" ; Win
                                      !force 5 global-bind-key scroll-down "A-down"
                                      !force 5 global-bind-key scroll-up "esc up" ; Unix
                                      !force 5 global-bind-key scroll-down "esc down"

                                      !force 1 global-bind-key buffer-mode "C-x C-a"
                                      !force -1 global-bind-key buffer-mode "C-x C-d"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x d"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x C-e"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "A-f"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x C-l"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x C-u"
                                      !force global-bind-key shell "C-x C-z"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x f"
                                      !force global-bind-key goto-line "C-x g"
                                      !force global-bind-key insert-file "C-x i"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x m"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x n"
                                      ; USE M-q: !force global-bind-key ifill-paragraph "C-x p"
                                      !force global-bind-key view-file "C-x r"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "A-s"
                                      !force global-bind-key search-forward "esc s"
                                      !force global-bind-key save-buffer "C-x s"
                                      !force global-bind-key find-file "C-x C-v"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x w"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x x"
                                      ; !force global-bind-key grow-window-vertically "C-x C-^" ; easier
                                      than ^X^
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc C-k"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc C-n"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc C-r"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc C-s"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc a"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc e" ; set encryption key
                                      !force global-bind-key delete-indentation "esc j"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc k"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc m"
                                      !force global-bind-key query-replace-string "esc %"
                                      ;!force global-bind-key end-of-buffer "esc >"
                                      ;;1 global-bind-key set-mark "C-\"" ; ^2
                                      !force global-bind-key save-buffers-exit-emacs "A-f4"
                                      !force global-bind-key save-buffers-exit-emacs "C-x C-c"
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key delete-buffer "C-f4"
                                      !force 3 global-bind-key narrow-buffer "C-x <"
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key narrow-buffer "C-x >" ; widen
                                      !force global-bind-key help "C-h ?"
                                      !force global-bind-key yank "S-insert"
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc ." ; was: set-mark
                                      !force global-unbind-key "C-x /" ; was: isearch-forward
                                      !force global-unbind-key "esc z" ; was: quick-exit
                                      ;; key used in macro !force global-bind-key tab "C-x C-i"
                                      !force global-bind-key command-apropos "C-h a"
                                      !force global-bind-key backward-kill-word "C-backspace" ; in addition
                                      to S-backspace
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-down "mouse-wdown" ; enable mouse wheel
                                      (Exceed 6.2)
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-up "mouse-wup"
                                      ; Exceed 7.1: sends mouse-pick-4 followed by mouse-drop-4 for wheel
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-down "mouse-pick-5" ; mouse wheel
                                      (Exceed 7.1)
                                      !force 1 global-bind-key scroll-up "mouse-pick-4"
                                      !force 0 global-bind-key scroll-down "mouse-drop-5" ; mouse wheel
                                      (Exceed 7.1)
                                      !force 0 global-bind-key scroll-up "mouse-drop-4"
                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-left A-kp-left ; Imouse left
                                      !force 10 global-bind-key scroll-right A-kp-right ; Imouse right
                                      !force global-bind-key previous-window "C-x -"
                                      !force global-bind-key next-window "C-tab" ; Ctrl-Tab (like MDI)
                                      !force global-bind-key previous-window "C-S-tab" ; Ctrl-Shift-Tab (like
                                      MDI)
                                      !force global-bind-key split-window-horizontally "C-x 3" ; (like Gnu)
                                      !force global-unbind-key "A-C-r" ; free up for Windows shortcut
                                      !force global-bind-key next-buffer "C-page-down" ; Ctrl-PgDn (like Excel)
                                      !force -1 global-bind-key next-buffer "C-page-up" ; Ctrl-PgUp (like Excel)
                                      !force global-bind-key split-window-horizontally "C-x 5"

                                      ; end bindings
                                    • Pierre Gaston
                                      ... Some other things : kill-line kills the end-of-line kill-region, does not put the region in the kill-ring when used inside the minibuffer (don t know if
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                        Bob Paddock wrote:

                                        >On Tuesday 19 October 2004 05:44 pm, Steven Phillips wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>However having not used Emacs for years I am no longer in a position to
                                        >>know what the main annoyances of using ME are from an Emacs users point of
                                        >>view.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Major one is that Control-Open-Bracket (^[) is not the same as Meta (<ESC>).
                                        >
                                        >Ctrl-Home go to top of current file.
                                        >
                                        >Ctrl-End go to bottom of current file.
                                        >
                                        >ESC-% Replace.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Some other things :

                                        kill-line kills the end-of-line
                                        kill-region, does not put the region in the "kill-ring" when used
                                        inside the minibuffer (don't know if this is relevant here)

                                        Alt -> Main Menu N in the user setup

                                        ;C-x C-e is eval last sexp ie execute the current block in the buffer
                                        which has no equivalent AFAIK
                                        ; perhaps this should not be global rather in emf mode
                                        global-bind-key execute-buffer "C-x C-e"

                                        global-bind-key execute-line "A-:"

                                        global-bind-key query-replace-string "A-%"
                                        global-bind-key end-of-buffer "C-end"
                                        global-bind-key beginning-of-buffer "C-home"
                                        global-bind-key end-of-line "end"
                                        global-bind-key beginning-of-line "home"

                                        global-bind-key help-command "C-h f"
                                        global-bind-key describe-variable "C-h v"

                                        global-bind-key expand-abbrev-handle "esc /"
                                        global-bind-key goto-matching-fence "A-C-p"
                                        global-bind-key goto-matching-fence "A-C-n"
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