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Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i²c-bus

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  • Vasile Surducan
    I m glad you re back Stef ! With the standard RS232 you can communicate with any PICs you want (resonable numbers) using an RS232 repeater at every PIC module
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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      I'm glad you're back Stef !
      With the standard RS232 you can communicate with any PICs you want
      (resonable numbers) using an RS232 repeater at every PIC module and an
      addressable scheme. I have to admit I have heard about this ideea from
      Wouter.
      Disatvantages for this tehnique is the lenght limitation between two
      adjacent modules which is a boud rate dependant.


      top 10 wishes,
      Vasile
      http://surducan.netfirms.com


      On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Stef Mientki wrote:

      > hi Jaco,
      >
      > If you just want to communicate between 2 pics, and you don't need the
      > serial ports for other things, the easiest way is to use the serial port.
      >
      > If you want to communicate with a few pics, the easiest way is SPI (just
      > one master, and much easier than I2C).
      >
      > Stef
      >
      > Jaco van der Linden wrote:
      > > I know nothing of 1˛c at all......as i said i'm an absolute beginner with pic's.
      > > A few months ago i've posted a quistion how i can make more pic's communicate with eachother.
      > > A lot of people posted that i˛c was the best way.
      > > I've searched the internet and found a lot about this subject, bus it's to dificult for me.
      > > If i have a simple schematic and a simple program for a jal-pic maybe i'll understand more about it.
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Eur van Andel
      > > To: jallist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 9:14 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i˛c-bus
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:23:33 -0000, "jaco_ehv" <jaco@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >A few months ago i've started experimenting programming my 16f877-
      > > >Jal....everything succeeded very well.
      > > >But there's one thing that i can't work out. I want to let two
      > > >16f877's communicate with an i˛c-bus, i know nothing at all about
      > > >this subject .
      > > >Does somebody have some simple souce-code's and/or schematics aubout
      > > >this subject to give me a push in the correct way....
      > > Schematics are very easy: two lines with a 2k2..4k7 pull-up resistor.
      > >
      > > Read i2c.jal (already on your hard disk), read the datasheets.
      > >
      > > The '877 can do hardware i2c, but I would not try that after a few months.
      > >
      > > I2C is master-slave, is your application too? I2C can have multiple bus
      > > masters, but you have to do your own collision detection and retry.
      > >
      > > Read here:
      > >
      > > http://www.ping.be/~ping0751/i2cfaq/i2cindex.htm Very good, don't let the
      > > server forward you to Crosswinds. "Next" arrows don't work too.
      > >
      > > http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/literature/9398/39340011.pdf
      > > The Official Specifications from the copyright holders. You can bake a chip
      > > that works via the I2C protocol, but if you want to print I2C on the package or
      > > in the datasheet, you'll have to talk to these guys first.
      > >
      > >
      > > <mellow memories>
      > > I2C is over 20 years old and it was developed for Inter-IC-Communication in a
      > > TV set, at first between the tuner and the display/keyboard/remote receiver
      > > ASIC.
      > > Philips does not make TV's anymore but they are still world leading in CRT
      > > tubes, TV and video IC's and deflection transistors.
      > >
      > > My autodidact advanced course in electronics was entirely based on repairing
      > > Philips TV-sets, which came default with a schematic. Maybe some Dutch readers
      > > will remember the K7 (tubes!), K9, K12 and K35 chassis numbers.
      > > </mellow memories>
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
      > > Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
      > > phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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      >
    • Eur van Andel
      On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:09:41 +0200, Jaco van der Linden ... Make lots and lots of empty tubes (gele 5/8 electriciteitspijp, wellicht zelfs
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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        On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:09:41 +0200, "Jaco van der Linden" <jaco@...>
        wrote:

        >I want to communicate with about 5 to 10 pics, At this time i'm building my own
        >house, the infra-sturucture in the house applys me to make one central point
        Make lots and lots of empty tubes (gele 5/8" electriciteitspijp, wellicht zelfs
        3/4") so you cal pull all sorts of wires through it.

        >where i can place a few controllers that controls the light's, the alarm, the
        >screens, the ventilation, and more. I need to let the pic's communicate. For
        >example: If i put on the alarm, the alarm-pic give's a signal to the light-pic
        >that turns off all the light's, give's a signal to the ventilation-pic to set
        >the ventilaton to the lowest speed, and to the screen-pic to close all the
        >screens......
        This is exactly what I want too. Trouble is, in order to get reliable
        communication, ethernet is the way to go. I have an old house, so no empty
        tubes here. I don't want to make special wires too, since ethernet reaches into
        all corners of my house already, even the garage.
        Special protocols and wires will take up a lot of your time, which is valuable
        too. The guys in news://comp.home.automation say that security systems should
        not run over X10. Then again, X10 might be just what you are looking for.
        Everything you mention above is readily available and plug-&-play.

        Visit: http://www.smarthome.com they have everything you need. Conversion to
        230V AC 50 Hz may be necessary. Google for it.

        I have thought long and hard over a home automation platform and decided that
        I'm going to use PC's. A small 486 PC costs EUR 1,- these days, and a 3COM ISA
        ethernet card too. I have both plenty :-)
        With the hard disk running, a PC uses some 30W, without 20W. This is 30..20
        EUR/year in electricity costs and about the price of an embedded ethernet
        microcontroller.
        PC's are programmable in a plethora of high-level languages and can run several
        OS. I plan to use DOS 6.22, boot from a floppy and share a 3 MB RAM disk over
        the ethernet. If I share the floppy as well, I can change everything remotely.
        I might need a remote reboot tool, but I'm sure that can be found on the web.
        M$ has a nice tool to install TCP/IP networking on DOS. Google for it.
        Switching off the hard disk increases the reliability and reduces the noise
        too.

        I would switch to embedded processors, if there is a cheap module where I can
        connect a PIC too ( it now costs $20..30, not including the ethernet
        transformer) and if Ethernet would carry power. Both are coming and several
        hundred people are working very hard on it, but it is not ready yet.

        Some links:

        > http://www.maxim-ic.com/TINIdocs/networkedmicros.cfm
        > http://www.siteplayer.com/
        > http://www.lantronix.com/products/eds/xport/

        You can build a TCP/IP stack too, in JAL. This is VERY hard. However, good
        documentation exists:

        http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/


        Botom line: you should use X10.




        >i Hope somebody can help me.....
        >
        >Jaco
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Stef Mientki
        > To: jallist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:45 PM
        > Subject: Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i²c-bus
        >
        >
        > hi Jaco,
        >
        > If you just want to communicate between 2 pics, and you don't need the
        > serial ports for other things, the easiest way is to use the serial port.
        >
        > If you want to communicate with a few pics, the easiest way is SPI (just
        > one master, and much easier than I2C).
        >
        > Stef
        >
        > Jaco van der Linden wrote:
        > > I know nothing of 1²c at all......as i said i'm an absolute beginner with pic's.
        > > A few months ago i've posted a quistion how i can make more pic's communicate with eachother.
        > > A lot of people posted that i²c was the best way.
        > > I've searched the internet and found a lot about this subject, bus it's to dificult for me.
        > > If i have a simple schematic and a simple program for a jal-pic maybe i'll understand more about it.
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Eur van Andel
        > > To: jallist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 9:14 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i²c-bus
        > >
        > >
        > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:23:33 -0000, "jaco_ehv" <jaco@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >A few months ago i've started experimenting programming my 16f877-
        > > >Jal....everything succeeded very well.
        > > >But there's one thing that i can't work out. I want to let two
        > > >16f877's communicate with an i²c-bus, i know nothing at all about
        > > >this subject .
        > > >Does somebody have some simple souce-code's and/or schematics aubout
        > > >this subject to give me a push in the correct way....
        > > Schematics are very easy: two lines with a 2k2..4k7 pull-up resistor.
        > >
        > > Read i2c.jal (already on your hard disk), read the datasheets.
        > >
        > > The '877 can do hardware i2c, but I would not try that after a few months.
        > >
        > > I2C is master-slave, is your application too? I2C can have multiple bus
        > > masters, but you have to do your own collision detection and retry.
        > >
        > > Read here:
        > >
        > > http://www.ping.be/~ping0751/i2cfaq/i2cindex.htm Very good, don't let the
        > > server forward you to Crosswinds. "Next" arrows don't work too.
        > >
        > > http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/literature/9398/39340011.pdf
        > > The Official Specifications from the copyright holders. You can bake a chip
        > > that works via the I2C protocol, but if you want to print I2C on the package or
        > > in the datasheet, you'll have to talk to these guys first.
        > >
        > >
        > > <mellow memories>
        > > I2C is over 20 years old and it was developed for Inter-IC-Communication in a
        > > TV set, at first between the tuner and the display/keyboard/remote receiver
        > > ASIC.
        > > Philips does not make TV's anymore but they are still world leading in CRT
        > > tubes, TV and video IC's and deflection transistors.
        > >
        > > My autodidact advanced course in electronics was entirely based on repairing
        > > Philips TV-sets, which came default with a schematic. Maybe some Dutch readers
        > > will remember the K7 (tubes!), K9, K12 and K35 chassis numbers.
        > > </mellow memories>
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
        > > Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
        > > phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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        >
        >

        --
        Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
        Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
        phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
      • Eur van Andel
        On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:35:13 +0300 (EEST), Vasile Surducan ... That is simple, use your own phone line. You have to pull your wires anyway. -- Ir. E.E. van
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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          On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:35:13 +0300 (EEST), Vasile Surducan
          <vasile@...-cj.ro> wrote:

          > Another choice is to use the telophone line and perform all comands with
          >DTMF sequencies for all commands and data transfers.
          >This is really interesting but I don't know how about decreasing the line
          >impedance below the standard accepted by the telephone company ( Javi ?)
          That is simple, use your own phone line. You have to pull your wires anyway.

          --
          Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
          Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
          phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
        • Wouter van Ooijen
          ... But when no PC is involved RS485 is IMHO a much better idea! Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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            > With the standard RS232 you can communicate with any PICs you want
            > (resonable numbers) using an RS232 repeater at every PIC module and an
            > addressable scheme.

            But when no PC is involved RS485 is IMHO a much better idea!

            Wouter van Ooijen

            -- -------------------------------------------
            Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
            consultancy, development, PICmicro products
          • Javier Martínez
            ... - Transmision reference beacon 800Hz -10dBm 600 Ohm. Atenuation/frecuency table for wire lines (data speed
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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              > This is really interesting but I don't know how about decreasing the line
              > impedance below the standard accepted by the telephone company ( Javi ?)
              >

              >From CITT Orange book:

              - Transmision reference beacon 800Hz -10dBm 600 Ohm.

              Atenuation/frecuency table for wire lines
              (data speed <= 1200 bits/s)

              Frecuency Min att. Max att.
              ========================================
              400 .. 2000 -3dB 9dB
              2000 .. 2800 -3dB 16dB


              Atenuation/frecuency table for wire lines (HQ)
              (data speed <= 2400 bits/s, error rate < 5E-5)

              Frecuency Min att. Max att.
              ========================================
              300 .. 500 -2dB 6dB
              500 .. 2800 -1dB 3dB
              2800 .. 3000 -2dB 6dB



              ... but this is quite old. ADSL modems works between home and telephone
              central office (impedance 100 Ohm). They are up to 256 beacons with a
              4.3KHz of bandwith each one. An example measured at work (hired
              256Kb/s): ATU-C adsl modem (Tel. central office one) transmit 5.5MB/s at
              12dBm (max 8MB/s), line attenuation about 30..35dB (less than 2Km). This
              measurements are the downstream (to home) from 250KHz..2MHz. In upstream
              (from home) the attenuation is lower, and the bandwith is lower too
              (25KHz .. 250KHz) (125KHz...250KHz in isdn lines).


              Javi.



              > best,
              > Vasile
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Vasile Surducan
              Eur, in your own house, having 20 cheap 486 buzzing in your head (with ventilators and EMF) can make you nuts ! I will never do such a thing ! PC104 is still
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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                Eur, in your own house, having 20 cheap 486 buzzing in your head
                (with ventilators and EMF) can make you nuts ! I will never do such a
                thing ! PC104 is still expensive. Tell me sincerely how do you feel after
                you turn off the PC and the silence came down finaly in your ears. It's nice isn't it ?
                Unfortunately you can't pay the silence price too...


                top 10 wishes,
                Vasile
                http://surducan.netfirms.com


                On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Eur van Andel wrote:

                > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:09:41 +0200, "Jaco van der Linden" <jaco@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > >I want to communicate with about 5 to 10 pics, At this time i'm building my own
                > >house, the infra-sturucture in the house applys me to make one central point
                > Make lots and lots of empty tubes (gele 5/8" electriciteitspijp, wellicht zelfs
                > 3/4") so you cal pull all sorts of wires through it.
                >
                > >where i can place a few controllers that controls the light's, the alarm, the
                > >screens, the ventilation, and more. I need to let the pic's communicate. For
                > >example: If i put on the alarm, the alarm-pic give's a signal to the light-pic
                > >that turns off all the light's, give's a signal to the ventilation-pic to set
                > >the ventilaton to the lowest speed, and to the screen-pic to close all the
                > >screens......
                > This is exactly what I want too. Trouble is, in order to get reliable
                > communication, ethernet is the way to go. I have an old house, so no empty
                > tubes here. I don't want to make special wires too, since ethernet reaches into
                > all corners of my house already, even the garage.
                > Special protocols and wires will take up a lot of your time, which is valuable
                > too. The guys in news://comp.home.automation say that security systems should
                > not run over X10. Then again, X10 might be just what you are looking for.
                > Everything you mention above is readily available and plug-&-play.
                >
                > Visit: http://www.smarthome.com they have everything you need. Conversion to
                > 230V AC 50 Hz may be necessary. Google for it.
                >
                > I have thought long and hard over a home automation platform and decided that
                > I'm going to use PC's. A small 486 PC costs EUR 1,- these days, and a 3COM ISA
                > ethernet card too. I have both plenty :-)
                > With the hard disk running, a PC uses some 30W, without 20W. This is 30..20
                > EUR/year in electricity costs and about the price of an embedded ethernet
                > microcontroller.
                > PC's are programmable in a plethora of high-level languages and can run several
                > OS. I plan to use DOS 6.22, boot from a floppy and share a 3 MB RAM disk over
                > the ethernet. If I share the floppy as well, I can change everything remotely.
                > I might need a remote reboot tool, but I'm sure that can be found on the web.
                > M$ has a nice tool to install TCP/IP networking on DOS. Google for it.
                > Switching off the hard disk increases the reliability and reduces the noise
                > too.
                >
                > I would switch to embedded processors, if there is a cheap module where I can
                > connect a PIC too ( it now costs $20..30, not including the ethernet
                > transformer) and if Ethernet would carry power. Both are coming and several
                > hundred people are working very hard on it, but it is not ready yet.
                >
                > Some links:
                >
                > > http://www.maxim-ic.com/TINIdocs/networkedmicros.cfm
                > > http://www.siteplayer.com/
                > > http://www.lantronix.com/products/eds/xport/
                >
                > You can build a TCP/IP stack too, in JAL. This is VERY hard. However, good
                > documentation exists:
                >
                > http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/
                >
                >
                > Botom line: you should use X10.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >i Hope somebody can help me.....
                > >
                > >Jaco
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Stef Mientki
                > > To: jallist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:45 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i˛c-bus
                > >
                > >
                > > hi Jaco,
                > >
                > > If you just want to communicate between 2 pics, and you don't need the
                > > serial ports for other things, the easiest way is to use the serial port.
                > >
                > > If you want to communicate with a few pics, the easiest way is SPI (just
                > > one master, and much easier than I2C).
                > >
                > > Stef
                > >
                > > Jaco van der Linden wrote:
                > > > I know nothing of 1˛c at all......as i said i'm an absolute beginner with pic's.
                > > > A few months ago i've posted a quistion how i can make more pic's communicate with eachother.
                > > > A lot of people posted that i˛c was the best way.
                > > > I've searched the internet and found a lot about this subject, bus it's to dificult for me.
                > > > If i have a simple schematic and a simple program for a jal-pic maybe i'll understand more about it.
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: Eur van Andel
                > > > To: jallist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 9:14 PM
                > > > Subject: Re: [jallist] 16f877 and i˛c-bus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:23:33 -0000, "jaco_ehv" <jaco@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > >A few months ago i've started experimenting programming my 16f877-
                > > > >Jal....everything succeeded very well.
                > > > >But there's one thing that i can't work out. I want to let two
                > > > >16f877's communicate with an i˛c-bus, i know nothing at all about
                > > > >this subject .
                > > > >Does somebody have some simple souce-code's and/or schematics aubout
                > > > >this subject to give me a push in the correct way....
                > > > Schematics are very easy: two lines with a 2k2..4k7 pull-up resistor.
                > > >
                > > > Read i2c.jal (already on your hard disk), read the datasheets.
                > > >
                > > > The '877 can do hardware i2c, but I would not try that after a few months.
                > > >
                > > > I2C is master-slave, is your application too? I2C can have multiple bus
                > > > masters, but you have to do your own collision detection and retry.
                > > >
                > > > Read here:
                > > >
                > > > http://www.ping.be/~ping0751/i2cfaq/i2cindex.htm Very good, don't let the
                > > > server forward you to Crosswinds. "Next" arrows don't work too.
                > > >
                > > > http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/literature/9398/39340011.pdf
                > > > The Official Specifications from the copyright holders. You can bake a chip
                > > > that works via the I2C protocol, but if you want to print I2C on the package or
                > > > in the datasheet, you'll have to talk to these guys first.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > <mellow memories>
                > > > I2C is over 20 years old and it was developed for Inter-IC-Communication in a
                > > > TV set, at first between the tuner and the display/keyboard/remote receiver
                > > > ASIC.
                > > > Philips does not make TV's anymore but they are still world leading in CRT
                > > > tubes, TV and video IC's and deflection transistors.
                > > >
                > > > My autodidact advanced course in electronics was entirely based on repairing
                > > > Philips TV-sets, which came default with a schematic. Maybe some Dutch readers
                > > > will remember the K7 (tubes!), K9, K12 and K35 chassis numbers.
                > > > </mellow memories>
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
                > > > Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
                > > > phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > --
                > Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
                > Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
                > phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
                >
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              • Eur van Andel
                On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:32:00 +0300 (EEST), Vasile Surducan ... Yeah, I now have one, which is a small desktop case. This makes way to much noise, but it is in
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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                  On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:32:00 +0300 (EEST), Vasile Surducan
                  <vasile@...-cj.ro> wrote:

                  >> I have thought long and hard over a home automation platform and decided that
                  >> I'm going to use PC's. A small 486 PC costs EUR 1,- these days, and a 3COM ISA
                  >> ethernet card too. I have both plenty :-)
                  >> With the hard disk running, a PC uses some 30W, without 20W. This is 30..20
                  >> EUR/year in electricity costs and about the price of an embedded ethernet
                  >> microcontroller.
                  >> PC's are programmable in a plethora of high-level languages and can run several
                  >> OS. I plan to use DOS 6.22, boot from a floppy and share a 3 MB RAM disk over
                  >> the ethernet. If I share the floppy as well, I can change everything remotely.
                  >> I might need a remote reboot tool, but I'm sure that can be found on the web.
                  >> M$ has a nice tool to install TCP/IP networking on DOS. Google for it.
                  >> Switching off the hard disk increases the reliability and reduces the noise
                  >> too.

                  > Eur, in your own house, having 20 cheap 486 buzzing in your head
                  >(with ventilators and EMF) can make you nuts ! I will never do such a
                  >thing ! PC104 is still expensive. Tell me sincerely how do you feel after
                  >you turn off the PC and the silence came down finaly in your ears. It's nice isn't it ?
                  >Unfortunately you can't pay the silence price too...
                  Yeah, I now have one, which is a small desktop case. This makes way to much
                  noise, but it is in my garage, watching the doors.

                  >27/08/03 08:13:15 small door is open
                  >27/08/03 08:13:23 small door is closed
                  >27/08/03 08:13:24 small door is open
                  >27/08/03 08:13:24 small door is closed
                  >27/08/03 08:39:04 small door is open
                  >27/08/03 08:39:08 small door is closed

                  I bought a EUR 1,- Tulip desktop PC at a fleamarket, which is quite silent,
                  especially when the harddisk is turned off. This will sit in my office,
                  watching the front door and other doors. My office has 3 hard disks spinning
                  all the time anyway.

                  The bedroom will be hard, but I plan to make a large PC in a sound-proof
                  closet, so I can surf the web in bed with special display glasses. Trouble is,
                  my wife will probably not allow a keyboard in bed :-)


                  --
                  Ir. E.E. van Andel, Fine Wire Heat Exchangers, Fiwihex B.V. www.fiwihex.com
                  Wierdensestraat 74, NL-7604 BK Almelo, The Netherlands eur@...
                  phone +31-546-491106 fax +31-546-491107 mobile +31-653-286573
                • Stef Mientki
                  ... Hi Vasile, Javi, Eur, Wouter and others, nice to see you all back. Wouters store is really starting to run, great!, success Wouter. I ve been back from
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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                    Vasile Surducan wrote:
                    > I'm glad you're back Stef !
                    Hi Vasile, Javi, Eur, Wouter and others,
                    nice to "see" you all back.
                    Wouters store is really starting to run, great!, success Wouter.

                    I've been back from my hollidays for a couple of weeks,
                    and the trouble is that I always come back with a lot of work.

                    As always I've tremendous trouble with all that M$ bullshit.
                    Just before my holliday I couldn't even start a simple explorer.
                    After searching for this problem at the M$-site, after a few hours I
                    found that this problem (although it was very rare), was a real bug and
                    existed already from win95, uptil winXP. The really bad thing was that
                    because almost no one complains about this bug, M$ has taken no action
                    whatsoever! (Ok winXP has a new concept of iss-files, but M$ forgot, or
                    were not able to build it in time, to add the tools to create these
                    files) So during my holliday I came up with the idea of building my own
                    explorer, viewer, editor.

                    So the bad thing is, no time for PICs at the moment, but working on
                    "Punthoofd" as I called my program.
                    But the good thing is that I'll probably insert a number of concepts of
                    "PuntHoofd" in JALcc as the new projectmanager.
                    The idea is that a (JAL) project not only consists of a main JAL-file
                    and some JAL libraries, but also consists of documents (pdf, doc,
                    txt,html ..) either on your local disk or on the net, your personal
                    notes, docs, email addresses of collegaes, newsgroups, graphic files,
                    executable program, ...etc ...

                    I hope to finish my first version in the next couple of weeks, then I'll
                    PICkup some PIC projects again and probably will be more active on the
                    jallist. In the meanwhile I'm just lurking ..

                    greetings to you all,
                    Stef
                  • Wouter van Ooijen
                    ... and some JAL libraries, but also consists of documents (pdf, doc, txt,html ..) either on your local disk or on the net, your personal notes, docs, email
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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                      > The idea is that a (JAL) project not only consists of a main JAL-file
                      and some JAL libraries, but also consists of documents (pdf, doc,
                      txt,html ..) either on your local disk or on the net, your personal
                      notes, docs, email addresses of collegaes, newsgroups, graphic files,
                      executable program, ...etc ...

                      Stef, are you familiar with the concept of 'literate programming'? IIRC
                      it originates from DKnuth.

                      Wouter van Ooijen

                      -- -------------------------------------------
                      Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
                      consultancy, development, PICmicro products





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stef Mientki
                      ... Thanks Wouter, I didn t know this concept and indeed it s from Knuth. Donald Knuth. Literate Programming (1984) in Literate Programming. CSLI, 1992, pg.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 1, 2003
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                        Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

                        >>The idea is that a (JAL) project not only consists of a main JAL-file
                        >
                        > and some JAL libraries, but also consists of documents (pdf, doc,
                        > txt,html ..) either on your local disk or on the net, your personal
                        > notes, docs, email addresses of collegaes, newsgroups, graphic files,
                        > executable program, ...etc ...
                        >
                        > Stef, are you familiar with the concept of 'literate programming'? IIRC
                        > it originates from DKnuth.
                        Thanks Wouter, I didn't know this concept and indeed it's from Knuth.

                        Donald Knuth. "Literate Programming (1984)" in Literate Programming.
                        CSLI, 1992, pg. 99.
                        "Let us change our traditional attitude to the construction of
                        programs: Instead of imagining that our main task is to instruct a
                        computer what to do, let us concentrate rather on explaining to human
                        beings what we want a computer to do."

                        That sounds very good, but when continue, I constantly read terms like
                        "C" and "Tex" .... ;-(

                        cheers,
                        Stef
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