Re: Fwd: A question on Bhava
Dear Shri Yaswant Jain,
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Acharya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
Sub: Question on Bhaava.
Ref: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 12:26:45 PM
Sorry for the inordinate delay due to domestic compulsions and added to the internet failures.
Thanks for perusing the submission and coming up with more clarity on rephrasing the question as the answer. was not satisfory.
Let the question be understood first.
Karmic dust being the same in all respects in the instant two souls, whether their gynaan paryaaya will be same if not why? If that is what your question is then the reply is very well in the earlier submission. However the reply is now made keeping your points in view.
Karmic dust remaining same, it has nothing do with the psychic expressions – gynaan paryaayas – of two different souls. If one soul identifies itself with the pictures of the functioning of the karmic dust, then the psychic expressions are mundane and that forms the bhaava karama resulting in the fresh inflow and bondage of dhravya karma. And if not the shedding of the karmic dust is shed with out becoming a cause for asrava and becomes cause for samvara – stoppage of inflow of karma. Then onwards purity surges.
In this connection with right knowledge and faith of the self followed by right conduct of the soul – gynaan – remaining as merely a knower and seer (like mirror the soul decides the bhaava which is upadhana kaarana and the sprouting of the dhravya karma being meritorious – punnya – gets the name nimitta.. So the relative knowledge on the self in two independent souls being similar is next to impossibility as it is dependent on very factors especially the presence or absence of Samyakthva..
Reply to Your question:
Karmic dust is pudgal and inert and dead in character. Soul as you know is conscious and intelligent. Equating the karmic dust, a substance altogether different from soul, as he parameter for actions in soul i.e., similar bhavaas to emanate is untenable.
Karmic dust does not have the capability to influence the soul but soul only gets influenced at the time of sprouting of the karmic dust due to its ignorance.
Paarinaamic bhaava of soul is the natural expression when the soul is bereft of delusion, liking and disliking and such a condition is perceivable only in vitraagi soul. .The other 4 bhaavas are verifly vilsible in embodied stage barring Arihants and Thrithankars.
Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information and it is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiency thereby help understanding better.
Welcome for any further clarification
Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
Sreepalan----- Original Message ----
From: yashwant Jain <ykj99@...>
To: Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 12:26:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: A question on BhavaDear Sreepalanji,
Jai Jinendra ,Thanks for your reply. I confess that I am not entirely satisfied by theanswer, however the fault must be in my framing the question hence Iwould try to reframe it.My question essentially boils down to " what differentiates between twojivas ? "
The answer should lie somewhere within the following :
1. In Siddha state all are same since they have same keval gyana.It alsoconfirms that Paarinamic bhava is same in all jivas. ( of course ourdiscussion is limited to bhavya jivas)
2. Now in samsar state the Jivas are found in five bhavas only. Out ofthis the Paarinamic bhava is covered above and all other bhavas aredependent on the form of karmas accrued to the jiva. depending upon thepurity/ impurity of them he will have audaric, kshayopashamic, aupashamicor kshayic bhavas. Even when he has shuddha bhavas , it will not be outside the perimeter of these five bhavas.
In the light of the above , my question is that when two jivashave exactly the same karmic bondage down to all the 148 prakriti, thenwhat will be the difference in their bhavas. Should it not be the same,since in siddha state also they are the same ? Even when we say that he has shuddha bhava, the corresponding karmas are subsided/ destroyed hence those bhavas are not outside the perimeter described above.I would like you to give your considered opinion on this matter. ActuallyI have not found in scriptures any direct answer to this type ofquestion.
With best regardsyashwant jain
Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058@...> wrote:Samyak DarshanDear Shri Yashwant Jain ,Let soul secure Samyakthva.Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Acharya Shri Kund Kund Dev.Sub: : A question on BhavaRef: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:51:48 AMThank you for referring the subject and sorry that it is eqaully possible that it might have escaped attention too.On earlier occasions too the subject was discussed but yet it becomes imperative to repeatedly discuss so as to keep one reminded of its importance in the path of liberation.Bhava is Bhavanam bhavathithi va bhaav:It means happening is bhaava and it is common to all the 6 kinds of substances that constitute this universe.Jeeva dhravya has 5 kinds of bhaavas viz., audhayic - that which is concerning other than self - soul; upsamic - that which is expressing at the time of subsidence of karmic dust; kshayopashamic - that which is expressing at the time of subsidence and destruction of karmic dust; kshaayic - that which is expressing at the time of destruction of karmic dust and lastly paarinamic - that which is expressing the nature of the substance.And in the other 5 substances viz., pudgal carries audhakyic, kshaaykic and paarinaamic bhaavas and the rest carry one bhaava i.e., paarinaamic bhaava.In short and sweet it - bhaava - is paryaaya.The instant case it is about two souls carrying same kind and amount of karmic dust and even if the other 4 ingredients i.e., dhravya, kshetra, kaala and bhava are same yet the bhaava will not be the same as respectful Guruji has said.Karmic dust has noting to do with the psychic expressions as they are independent as even soul has no control on the flow of bhaava or paryaayas.Gynaana paryaaya is the soul’s natural and normal paryaaya and ever functioning and is capable of knowing an seeing the happening in the gynaan. When gynaan is attaching itself with all that falls in the knowledge screen, then delusion, liking and disliking occurs in the gynaan which is also known and seen by gynaan paryaaya. The former is suddha paryaaya and the later is asuddha paryaayka.Perceptions differ from individual to individual and accordingly the values also. So the chances of the above referred two souls expressing similarly is next to impossibility.Now with the above mentioned brief note let your statements be analyzed:quote:Paarinamic bhava for each jiva must be the same since it is thepermanent quality of the Jiva hence what is implied by the term " KaaranPaarinamic Dravya is different " which Shri Kanji Swamy has used ?Analysis:No doubt paarinaamic bhaava is same i.e., gynaan saamaanya parnaam but the source i.e., source substance or dhravya is different as it is about two independent souls. Knowing and seeing is taking place in both the souls but the individual perception or understanding on and at the time of the sprouting of karmic dust need not and cannot be the same. One may remain unconcerned or concerned or deeply concerned or lightly concerned and ad infinitum when unconcerned it is suddha bhaava and all the rest are asuddha bhaavas.Quote:2. In Karananuyoga they tell about the panch paravartan wherein the fifthand longest is Bhaava Paravartan which the Jiva has undergone severaltimes and which implies that Jiva has gone through all combinations ofbhavas to minutest level and even that has been repeated. It means thatthe Jiva experiences the same Bhaava after one Bhaava paravartan kala. Ifsuch is the case then how come two jivas will not have the same bhaava ifthe Karma Prakriti is exactly the same ?Analsysi:Same bhaava is definitely not possible but similar bhaava may be said possible provided here again the four other ingredients have to be similar which is next to impossibility for the reasons explained herein above.That apart the number of karmic dust even assuming to be the same, both the souls need not express the similar bhaavas.Presence of same number of karmic dust in two independent souls need not get influenced in the same manner. Karmic dust and soul are two different independent substances with different qualities and capabilities.Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information and it is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiency thereby help understanding better.Welcome for any further clarificationTruth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.Now, it is, for the participants to come up.Yours brotherly,Sreepalan----- Original Message ----
From: yashwant Jain <ykj99@...>
To: Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058@...>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:51:48 AM
Subject: Fwd: A question on BhavaDear Sreepalanji,Jai Jinendra,Due to some reason my mail to you has been unanswered. I suspect that it has landed in bulk mail folder being treated as spam.I am forwarding it again. Please acknowledge receipt.with best regardsyashwant jain
Note: forwarded message attached.
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Jai JinendraHope you are keeping the best of health and have overcome your previousproblems. I have been keenly following your replies on the Yahoo groups
and I have a query which is as follows:I have read in the introduction to Jinagamsaar that a question was raisedto Shri Kanji Swamy that if there are two Jivas which are having exactlysame condition of 148 karma prakriti at a given moment down to theminutest level then what will be the bhava of the two jivas in thesubsequent samaya. " will it be the same ?" Shri Kanji Swamy replied thatit would not be the same since Kaaran Paarinamic Dravya is different i.e.since the two jivas are different and independent , the bhava shall notbe the same.I would like you to elaborate on this answer further with respect tofollowing points :1. Paarinamic bhava for each jiva must be the same since it is thepermanent quality of the Jiva hence what is implied by the term " KaaranPaarinamic Dravya is different " which Shri Kanji Swamy has used ?2. In Karananuyoga they tell about the panch paravartan wherein the fifthand longest is Bhaava Paravartan which the Jiva has undergone severaltimes and which implies that Jiva has gone through all combinations ofbhavas to minutest level and even that has been repeated. It means thatthe Jiva experiences the same Bhaava after one Bhaava paravartan kala. Ifsuch is the case then how come two jivas will not have the same bhaava ifthe Karma Prakriti is exactly the same ?The question has become little long but I hope I have made myself clear.If you have any clarification required on the question itself, Please doask me.Intitutively I accept the answer that the Bhavas for the two Jivas willbe different but I am not able to explain the reason . I hope you willprovide me with the answer.
with best regardsYashwant Jain
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