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Re: What happens after death - some references.

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  • Anish A Shah
    Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends, Jai Jinendra, Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The question of rebirth and nigod
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2007
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      Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
       
      Jai Jinendra,
       
      Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The question of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers of Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in Jainism. Synopsis of the same is as under :-
       
      1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
       
      2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic description the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is freed from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased, it travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the fruit. This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after the death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can one "feed" a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The intermediate state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called vigrahagati. But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is accompanied by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
       
      3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist as a parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group, attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human breath. They are found in every nook and corner  of the universe particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods, hellish beings and elemental bodies.
       
      4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls which have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to certain deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of nigoda existence upto now)
       
      5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate at which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states is equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
       
      6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a birth in nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that knowledge and efforts have no role in liberation.
       
      Michhami Dukkadam
       
      Anish Shah
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
      Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some references.

      Dear Manishji and friends,
      Jaya jinendra

      Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.

      (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It is
      collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into agams
      after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
      filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning of
      jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.

      They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
      branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi branches.

      (B)
      One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
      Pannavana.etc. )

      (B 1)

      There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come. The
      smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small gar-
      agat"
      It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva can go
      and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
      order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and similarly a
      narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.

      From Only open route of transmigration.
      Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
      routes.)
      Narak – Manushya tiryanch
      Tiryanch – dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
      Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
      Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.

      (C )

      There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very systematic .
      array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.

      (D )

      The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and after
      transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans, under
      different gati. Etc.

      There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
      Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his karma
      granth.

      The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some mental
      picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast dimensions,
      basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.

      Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar agams .
      (Karma granth are written about 800 – 900 years before present
      times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years old as
      per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the order
      of precedence.

      Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar literature.

      (E)

      The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during the
      shreni – Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment of
      samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved, etc.

      (F)

      The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans and
      agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. – very
      thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan. Total 12
      upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.

      (G)

      The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
      maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The shortest
      and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and many
      different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
      automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use the
      opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
      here.

      There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by Mahavir
      swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt. Here
      also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
      assumptions.

      This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.

      (H)

      The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each of
      563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines the
      longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
      particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay like
      limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .

      (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the process of
      ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
      ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and apramat
      avastha .


      Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
      Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
      exhaustive list .

      This is just overview.

      In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
      science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma dhyan,
      avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar has
      given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
      citings.

      Legends

      Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
      Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai

      Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.

      All errors are mine.

      Mehul

      --- In jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com, "MANISH MODI"
      <manishymodi@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Learned friends,
      > Jay Jinendra
      >
      > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain what
      happens to
      > the soul after death. I would request to him further enlighten us
      on this
      > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on reading
      more on this
      > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in this
      subject in
      > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and Samantabhadra. '
      >
      > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With scripture
      refs.
      >
      > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to help me
      in this
      > regard.
      >
      > yours
      > M
      >

    • jbkranger
      If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any proof of the claims you make below? Joey ... of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic.
      Message 2 of 12 , May 2, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any proof
        of the claims you make below?

        Joey
        --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
        >
        > Jai Jinendra,
        >
        > Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The question
        of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh
        Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers of
        Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in Jainism.
        Synopsis of the same is as under :-
        >
        > 1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
        >
        > 2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite
        distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic description
        the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is freed
        from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased, it
        travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is
        brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food
        chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the fruit.
        This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates
        into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after the
        death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can one "feed"
        a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The intermediate
        state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called vigrahagati.
        But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is accompanied
        by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
        >
        > 3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or
        exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist as a
        parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group,
        attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human
        breath. They are found in every nook and corner of the universe
        particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods,
        hellish beings and elemental bodies.
        >
        > 4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls which
        have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to certain
        deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of
        nigoda existence upto now)
        >
        > 5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate at
        which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states is
        equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
        >
        > 6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a birth in
        nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was
        doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that knowledge
        and efforts have no role in liberation.
        >
        > Michhami Dukkadam
        >
        > Anish Shah
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: mehul_turakhia
        > To: jainismforworld@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
        > Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some
        references.
        >
        >
        > Dear Manishji and friends,
        > Jaya jinendra
        >
        > Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.
        >
        > (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It is
        > collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into
        agams
        > after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
        > filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning
        of
        > jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.
        >
        > They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
        > branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi
        branches.
        >
        > (B)
        > One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
        > Pannavana.etc. )
        >
        > (B 1)
        >
        > There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come. The
        > smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small
        gar-
        > agat"
        > It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva
        can go
        > and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
        > order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and
        similarly a
        > narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.
        >
        > From Only open route of transmigration.
        > Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
        > routes.)
        > Narak - Manushya tiryanch
        > Tiryanch - dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
        > Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
        > Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.
        >
        > (C )
        >
        > There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very
        systematic .
        > array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.
        >
        > (D )
        >
        > The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and after
        > transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans,
        under
        > different gati. Etc.
        >
        > There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
        > Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his
        karma
        > granth.
        >
        > The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some
        mental
        > picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast
        dimensions,
        > basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.
        >
        > Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar
        agams .
        > (Karma granth are written about 800 - 900 years before present
        > times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years old
        as
        > per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the
        order
        > of precedence.
        >
        > Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar
        literature.
        >
        > (E)
        >
        > The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during
        the
        > shreni - Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment of
        > samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved, etc.
        >
        > (F)
        >
        > The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans and
        > agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. -
        very
        > thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan. Total
        12
        > upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.
        >
        > (G)
        >
        > The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
        > maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The
        shortest
        > and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and many
        > different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
        > automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use the
        > opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
        > here.
        >
        > There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by
        Mahavir
        > swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt. Here
        > also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
        > assumptions.
        >
        > This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.
        >
        > (H)
        >
        > The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each
        of
        > 563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines the
        > longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
        > particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay like
        > limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .
        >
        > (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the process
        of
        > ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
        > ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and
        apramat
        > avastha .
        >
        >
        > Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
        > Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
        > exhaustive list .
        >
        > This is just overview.
        >
        > In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
        > science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma dhyan,
        > avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar
        has
        > given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
        > citings.
        >
        > Legends
        >
        > Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
        > Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai
        >
        > Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.
        >
        > All errors are mine.
        >
        > Mehul
        >
        > --- In jainismforworld@yahoogroups.com, "MANISH MODI"
        > <manishymodi@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Learned friends,
        > > Jay Jinendra
        > >
        > > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain
        what
        > happens to
        > > the soul after death. I would request to him further enlighten
        us
        > on this
        > > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on reading
        > more on this
        > > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in this
        > subject in
        > > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and
        Samantabhadra. '
        > >
        > > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With
        scripture
        > refs.
        > >
        > > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to help
        me
        > in this
        > > regard.
        > >
        > > yours
        > > M
        > >
        >
      • Hitesh Mehta
        I have slight doubt- Regarding Mankhali Goshala. As per reading I think he accepted his mistakes, repented in his last moments and hence avoided to go into
        Message 3 of 12 , May 2, 2007
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          I have slight doubt- Regarding Mankhali Goshala.  As per reading I think he accepted his mistakes, repented  in his last moments and hence avoided to go into bad incretion. Knowledgeble members please throw light on this.
           
          Regards
          Hitesh
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:45 AM
          Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.

          Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
           
          Jai Jinendra,
           
          Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The question of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers of Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in Jainism. Synopsis of the same is as under :-
           
          1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
           
          2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic description the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is freed from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased, it travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the fruit. This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after the death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can one "feed" a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The intermediate state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called vigrahagati. But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is accompanied by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
           
          3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist as a parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group, attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human breath. They are found in every nook and corner  of the universe particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods, hellish beings and elemental bodies.
           
          4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls which have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to certain deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of nigoda existence upto now)
           
          5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate at which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states is equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
           
          6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a birth in nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that knowledge and efforts have no role in liberation.
           
          Michhami Dukkadam
           
          Anish Shah
          .

        • Anish A Shah
          Dear Joey, Jai Jinendra, Sorry for delay in reply. It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific outlook to demand for proofs for all the
          Message 4 of 12 , May 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Joey,
             
            Jai Jinendra,
             
            Sorry for delay in reply.
             
            It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon. However it is often misunderstood that there is proof for everything. For example the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever. Yet it is accepted in scientific circles as it is able to explain many scientific phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open unexplained paramaters. If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles; I am sorry I can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you leptons or quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be logically inferred.
             
            Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to ones rationality and logic and discard the rest.
             
            It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
             
            Regards,
             
            Anish
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: jbkranger
            Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM
            Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.

            If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any proof
            of the claims you make below?

            Joey
            --- In jainlist@yahoogroup s.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
            >
            > Jai Jinendra,
            >
            > Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The question
            of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh
            Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers of
            Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in Jainism.
            Synopsis of the same is as under :-
            >
            > 1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
            >
            > 2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite
            distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic description
            the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is freed
            from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased, it
            travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is
            brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food
            chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the fruit.
            This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates
            into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after the
            death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can one "feed"
            a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The intermediate
            state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called vigrahagati.
            But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is accompanied
            by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
            >
            > 3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or
            exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist as a
            parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group,
            attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human
            breath. They are found in every nook and corner of the universe
            particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods,
            hellish beings and elemental bodies.
            >
            > 4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls which
            have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to certain
            deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of
            nigoda existence upto now)
            >
            > 5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate at
            which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states is
            equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
            >
            > 6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a birth in
            nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was
            doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that knowledge
            and efforts have no role in liberation.
            >
            > Michhami Dukkadam
            >
            > Anish Shah
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: mehul_turakhia
            > To: jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
            > Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some
            references.
            >
            >
            > Dear Manishji and friends,
            > Jaya jinendra
            >
            > Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.
            >
            > (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It is
            > collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into
            agams
            > after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
            > filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning
            of
            > jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.
            >
            > They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
            > branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi
            branches.
            >
            > (B)
            > One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
            > Pannavana.etc. )
            >
            > (B 1)
            >
            > There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come. The
            > smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small
            gar-
            > agat"
            > It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva
            can go
            > and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
            > order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and
            similarly a
            > narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.
            >
            > From Only open route of transmigration.
            > Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
            > routes.)
            > Narak - Manushya tiryanch
            > Tiryanch - dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
            > Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
            > Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.
            >
            > (C )
            >
            > There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very
            systematic .
            > array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.
            >
            > (D )
            >
            > The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and after
            > transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans,
            under
            > different gati. Etc.
            >
            > There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
            > Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his
            karma
            > granth.
            >
            > The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some
            mental
            > picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast
            dimensions,
            > basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.
            >
            > Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar
            agams .
            > (Karma granth are written about 800 - 900 years before present
            > times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years old
            as
            > per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the
            order
            > of precedence.
            >
            > Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar
            literature.
            >
            > (E)
            >
            > The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during
            the
            > shreni - Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment of
            > samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved, etc.
            >
            > (F)
            >
            > The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans and
            > agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. -
            very
            > thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan. Total
            12
            > upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.
            >
            > (G)
            >
            > The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
            > maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The
            shortest
            > and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and many
            > different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
            > automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use the
            > opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
            > here.
            >
            > There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by
            Mahavir
            > swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt. Here
            > also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
            > assumptions.
            >
            > This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.
            >
            > (H)
            >
            > The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each
            of
            > 563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines the
            > longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
            > particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay like
            > limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .
            >
            > (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the process
            of
            > ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
            > ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and
            apramat
            > avastha .
            >
            >
            > Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
            > Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
            > exhaustive list .
            >
            > This is just overview.
            >
            > In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
            > science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma dhyan,
            > avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar
            has
            > given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
            > citings.
            >
            > Legends
            >
            > Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
            > Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai
            >
            > Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.
            >
            > All errors are mine.
            >
            > Mehul
            >
            > --- In jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com, "MANISH MODI"
            > <manishymodi@ > wrote:
            > >
            > > Learned friends,
            > > Jay Jinendra
            > >
            > > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain
            what
            > happens to
            > > the soul after death. I would request to him further enlighten
            us
            > on this
            > > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on reading
            > more on this
            > > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in this
            > subject in
            > > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and
            Samantabhadra. '
            > >
            > > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With
            scripture
            > refs.
            > >
            > > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to help
            me
            > in this
            > > regard.
            > >
            > > yours
            > > M
            > >
            >

          • jbkranger
            It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon. The Jain material I am reading says that
            Message 5 of 12 , May 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
              outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon.
              The Jain material I am reading says that too
              However it is often misunderstood that there is proof for everything.
              For example the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever.
              Yes there is; there's is plenty of it (far more that reincarnation in
              the manner proposed in the post at the yahoo group)
              Yet it is accepted in scientific circles as it is able to explain
              many scientific phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open
              unexplained paramaters.
              Sure. That does not explain reincarnation get to the point where is
              the proof of reincarnation in the manner in which was described. We
              are not talking big-bang we are talking reincarnation
              If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles; I am sorry I
              can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you leptons or
              quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be logically
              inferred.
              Then if we can't explain it by reason it is just the same as
              Christians concept of life after death and Jains should avoid it.
              Reason should have the final say

              Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to ones
              rationality and logic and discard the rest.
              Exactly. That I can agree with. T

              It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
              and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
              something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
              I did. Where can you prove reincarnation? You can't, so it does not
              exist.Why keep talking about it for the last 2000 years

              Regards,

              Anish


              ----- Original Message -----
              --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Joey,
              >
              > Jai Jinendra,
              >
              > Sorry for delay in reply.
              >
              > It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
              outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon. However it is
              often misunderstood that there is proof for everything. For example
              the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever. Yet it is accepted in
              scientific circles as it is able to explain many scientific
              phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open unexplained
              paramaters. If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles;
              I am sorry I can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you
              leptons or quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be
              logically inferred.
              >
              > Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to
              ones rationality and logic and discard the rest.
              >
              > It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
              and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
              something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Anish
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: jbkranger
              > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM
              > Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some
              references.
              >
              >
              > If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any
              proof
              > of the claims you make below?
              >
              > Joey
              > --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
              > >
              > > Jai Jinendra,
              > >
              > > Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The
              question
              > of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh
              > Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers
              of
              > Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in
              Jainism.
              > Synopsis of the same is as under :-
              > >
              > > 1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
              > >
              > > 2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite
              > distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic
              description
              > the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is
              freed
              > from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased,
              it
              > travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is
              > brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food
              > chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the
              fruit.
              > This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates
              > into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after
              the
              > death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can
              one "feed"
              > a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The
              intermediate
              > state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called
              vigrahagati.
              > But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is
              accompanied
              > by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
              > >
              > > 3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or
              > exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist
              as a
              > parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group,
              > attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human
              > breath. They are found in every nook and corner of the universe
              > particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods,
              > hellish beings and elemental bodies.
              > >
              > > 4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls
              which
              > have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to
              certain
              > deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of
              > nigoda existence upto now)
              > >
              > > 5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate
              at
              > which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states
              is
              > equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
              > >
              > > 6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a
              birth in
              > nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was
              > doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that
              knowledge
              > and efforts have no role in liberation.
              > >
              > > Michhami Dukkadam
              > >
              > > Anish Shah
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: mehul_turakhia
              > > To: jainismforworld@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
              > > Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some
              > references.
              > >
              > >
              > > Dear Manishji and friends,
              > > Jaya jinendra
              > >
              > > Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.
              > >
              > > (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It
              is
              > > collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into
              > agams
              > > after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
              > > filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning
              > of
              > > jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.
              > >
              > > They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
              > > branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi
              > branches.
              > >
              > > (B)
              > > One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
              > > Pannavana.etc. )
              > >
              > > (B 1)
              > >
              > > There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come.
              The
              > > smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small
              > gar-
              > > agat"
              > > It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva
              > can go
              > > and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
              > > order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and
              > similarly a
              > > narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.
              > >
              > > From Only open route of transmigration.
              > > Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
              > > routes.)
              > > Narak - Manushya tiryanch
              > > Tiryanch - dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
              > > Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
              > > Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.
              > >
              > > (C )
              > >
              > > There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very
              > systematic .
              > > array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.
              > >
              > > (D )
              > >
              > > The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and
              after
              > > transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans,
              > under
              > > different gati. Etc.
              > >
              > > There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
              > > Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his
              > karma
              > > granth.
              > >
              > > The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some
              > mental
              > > picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast
              > dimensions,
              > > basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.
              > >
              > > Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar
              > agams .
              > > (Karma granth are written about 800 - 900 years before present
              > > times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years
              old
              > as
              > > per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the
              > order
              > > of precedence.
              > >
              > > Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar
              > literature.
              > >
              > > (E)
              > >
              > > The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during
              > the
              > > shreni - Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment
              of
              > > samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved,
              etc.
              > >
              > > (F)
              > >
              > > The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans
              and
              > > agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. -

              > very
              > > thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan.
              Total
              > 12
              > > upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.
              > >
              > > (G)
              > >
              > > The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
              > > maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The
              > shortest
              > > and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and
              many
              > > different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
              > > automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use
              the
              > > opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
              > > here.
              > >
              > > There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by
              > Mahavir
              > > swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt.
              Here
              > > also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
              > > assumptions.
              > >
              > > This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.
              > >
              > > (H)
              > >
              > > The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each
              > of
              > > 563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines
              the
              > > longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
              > > particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay
              like
              > > limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .
              > >
              > > (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the
              process
              > of
              > > ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
              > > ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and
              > apramat
              > > avastha .
              > >
              > >
              > > Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
              > > Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
              > > exhaustive list .
              > >
              > > This is just overview.
              > >
              > > In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
              > > science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma
              dhyan,
              > > avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar
              > has
              > > given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
              > > citings.
              > >
              > > Legends
              > >
              > > Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
              > > Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai
              > >
              > > Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.
              > >
              > > All errors are mine.
              > >
              > > Mehul
              > >
              > > --- In jainismforworld@yahoogroups.com, "MANISH MODI"
              > > <manishymodi@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Learned friends,
              > > > Jay Jinendra
              > > >
              > > > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain
              > what
              > > happens to
              > > > the soul after death. I would request to him further
              enlighten
              > us
              > > on this
              > > > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on
              reading
              > > more on this
              > > > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in
              this
              > > subject in
              > > > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and
              > Samantabhadra. '
              > > >
              > > > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With
              > scripture
              > > refs.
              > > >
              > > > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to
              help
              > me
              > > in this
              > > > regard.
              > > >
              > > > yours
              > > > M
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Shreyas Shah
              Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory in science Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms ? The soul could be some
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment

                Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory in science

                 

                "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?

                 

                The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible yet exists, however keeps on changing forms.



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: jbkranger <jbkranger@...>
                To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, 8 May, 2007 3:44:43 PM
                Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.

                It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
                outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon.
                The Jain material I am reading says that too
                However it is often misunderstood that there is proof for everything.
                For example the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever.
                Yes there is; there's is plenty of it (far more that reincarnation in
                the manner proposed in the post at the yahoo group)
                Yet it is accepted in scientific circles as it is able to explain
                many scientific phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open
                unexplained paramaters.
                Sure. That does not explain reincarnation get to the point where is
                the proof of reincarnation in the manner in which was described. We
                are not talking big-bang we are talking reincarnation
                If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles; I am sorry I
                can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you leptons or
                quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be logically
                inferred.
                Then if we can't explain it by reason it is just the same as
                Christians concept of life after death and Jains should avoid it.
                Reason should have the final say

                Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to ones
                rationality and logic and discard the rest.
                Exactly. That I can agree with. T

                It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
                and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
                something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
                I did. Where can you prove reincarnation? You can't, so it does not
                exist.Why keep talking about it for the last 2000 years

                Regards,

                Anish


                ----- Original Message -----
                --- In jainlist@yahoogroup s.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Joey,
                >
                > Jai Jinendra,
                >
                > Sorry for delay in reply.
                >
                > It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
                outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon. However it is
                often misunderstood that there is proof for everything. For example
                the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever. Yet it is accepted in
                scientific circles as it is able to explain many scientific
                phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open unexplained
                paramaters. If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles;
                I am sorry I can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you
                leptons or quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be
                logically inferred.
                >
                > Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to
                ones rationality and logic and discard the rest.
                >
                > It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
                and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
                something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Anish
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: jbkranger
                > To: jainlist@yahoogroup s.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM
                > Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some
                references.
                >
                >
                > If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any
                proof
                > of the claims you make below?
                >
                > Joey
                > --- In jainlist@yahoogroup s.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@ >
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
                > >
                > > Jai Jinendra,
                > >
                > > Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The
                question
                > of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh
                > Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers
                of
                > Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in
                Jainism.
                > Synopsis of the same is as under :-
                > >
                > > 1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
                > >
                > > 2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite
                > distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic
                description
                > the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is
                freed
                > from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased,
                it
                > travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is
                > brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food
                > chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the
                fruit.
                > This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates
                > into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after
                the
                > death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can
                one "feed"
                > a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The
                intermediate
                > state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called
                vigrahagati.
                > But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is
                accompanied
                > by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
                > >
                > > 3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or
                > exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist
                as a
                > parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group,
                > attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human
                > breath. They are found in every nook and corner of the universe
                > particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods,
                > hellish beings and elemental bodies.
                > >
                > > 4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls
                which
                > have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to
                certain
                > deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of
                > nigoda existence upto now)
                > >
                > > 5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate
                at
                > which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states
                is
                > equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
                > >
                > > 6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a
                birth in
                > nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was
                > doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that
                knowledge
                > and efforts have no role in liberation.
                > >
                > > Michhami Dukkadam
                > >
                > > Anish Shah
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: mehul_turakhia
                > > To: jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com
                > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
                > > Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some
                > references.
                > >
                > >
                > > Dear Manishji and friends,
                > > Jaya jinendra
                > >
                > > Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.
                > >
                > > (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It
                is
                > > collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into
                > agams
                > > after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
                > > filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning
                > of
                > > jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.
                > >
                > > They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
                > > branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi
                > branches.
                > >
                > > (B)
                > > One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
                > > Pannavana.etc. )
                > >
                > > (B 1)
                > >
                > > There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come.
                The
                > > smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small
                > gar-
                > > agat"
                > > It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva
                > can go
                > > and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
                > > order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and
                > similarly a
                > > narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.
                > >
                > > From Only open route of transmigration.
                > > Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
                > > routes.)
                > > Narak - Manushya tiryanch
                > > Tiryanch - dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
                > > Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
                > > Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.
                > >
                > > (C )
                > >
                > > There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very
                > systematic .
                > > array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.
                > >
                > > (D )
                > >
                > > The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and
                after
                > > transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans,
                > under
                > > different gati. Etc.
                > >
                > > There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
                > > Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his
                > karma
                > > granth.
                > >
                > > The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some
                > mental
                > > picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast
                > dimensions,
                > > basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.
                > >
                > > Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar
                > agams .
                > > (Karma granth are written about 800 - 900 years before present
                > > times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years
                old
                > as
                > > per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the
                > order
                > > of precedence.
                > >
                > > Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar
                > literature.
                > >
                > > (E)
                > >
                > > The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during
                > the
                > > shreni - Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment
                of
                > > samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved,
                etc.
                > >
                > > (F)
                > >
                > > The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans
                and
                > > agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. -

                > very
                > > thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan.
                Total
                > 12
                > > upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.
                > >
                > > (G)
                > >
                > > The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
                > > maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The
                > shortest
                > > and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and
                many
                > > different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
                > > automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use
                the
                > > opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
                > > here.
                > >
                > > There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by
                > Mahavir
                > > swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt.
                Here
                > > also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
                > > assumptions.
                > >
                > > This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.
                > >
                > > (H)
                > >
                > > The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each
                > of
                > > 563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines
                the
                > > longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
                > > particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay
                like
                > > limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .
                > >
                > > (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the
                process
                > of
                > > ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
                > > ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and
                > apramat
                > > avastha .
                > >
                > >
                > > Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
                > > Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
                > > exhaustive list .
                > >
                > > This is just overview.
                > >
                > > In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
                > > science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma
                dhyan,
                > > avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar
                > has
                > > given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
                > > citings.
                > >
                > > Legends
                > >
                > > Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
                > > Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai
                > >
                > > Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.
                > >
                > > All errors are mine.
                > >
                > > Mehul
                > >
                > > --- In jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com, "MANISH MODI"
                > > <manishymodi@ > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Learned friends,
                > > > Jay Jinendra
                > > >
                > > > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain
                > what
                > > happens to
                > > > the soul after death. I would request to him further
                enlighten
                > us
                > > on this
                > > > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on
                reading
                > > more on this
                > > > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in
                this
                > > subject in
                > > > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and
                > Samantabhadra. '
                > > >
                > > > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With
                > scripture
                > > refs.
                > > >
                > > > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to
                help
                > me
                > > in this
                > > > regard.
                > > >
                > > > yours
                > > > M
                > > >
                > >
                >




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              • subhash-jain@uiowa.edu
                The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of two independent substances. Deeds that are done by one may not be done by the other. For
                Message 7 of 12 , May 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of two
                  independent substances. Deeds that are done by one may not be done by
                  the other. For example a physically strong person may not be able to
                  control his or her desire, while on the other hand a physically weak
                  person may be able to do that.

                  Subhash Jain
                  Quoting Shreyas Shah <shreyas_shah@...>:

                  > Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory in science
                  >
                  > "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?
                  >
                  > The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible yet
                  > exists, however keeps on changing forms.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: jbkranger <jbkranger@...>
                  > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, 8 May, 2007 3:44:43 PM
                  > Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.
                  >
                  > It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
                  > outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon.
                  > The Jain material I am reading says that too
                  > However it is often misunderstood that there is proof for everything.
                  > For example the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever.
                  > Yes there is; there's is plenty of it (far more that reincarnation in
                  > the manner proposed in the post at the yahoo group)
                  > Yet it is accepted in scientific circles as it is able to explain
                  > many scientific phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open
                  > unexplained paramaters.
                  > Sure. That does not explain reincarnation get to the point where is
                  > the proof of reincarnation in the manner in which was described. We
                  > are not talking big-bang we are talking reincarnation
                  > If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles; I am sorry I
                  > can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you leptons or
                  > quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be logically
                  > inferred.
                  > Then if we can't explain it by reason it is just the same as
                  > Christians concept of life after death and Jains should avoid it.
                  > Reason should have the final say
                  >
                  > Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to ones
                  > rationality and logic and discard the rest.
                  > Exactly. That I can agree with. T
                  >
                  > It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
                  > and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
                  > something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
                  > I did. Where can you prove reincarnation? You can't, so it does not
                  > exist.Why keep talking about it for the last 2000 years
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Anish
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > --- In jainlist@yahoogroup s.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@ ...>
                  > wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Dear Joey,
                  >>
                  >> Jai Jinendra,
                  >>
                  >> Sorry for delay in reply.
                  >>
                  >> It is quite natural for someone proud of ones modern scientific
                  > outlook to demand for proofs for all the phenomenon. However it is
                  > often misunderstood that there is proof for everything. For example
                  > the bigbang theory has no proof whatsoever. Yet it is accepted in
                  > scientific circles as it is able to explain many scientific
                  > phenomenon. At the same time it leaves many open unexplained
                  > paramaters. If you ask me to show you existence of Karmic particles;
                  > I am sorry I can't show you, the same way a physicist cannot show you
                  > leptons or quarks, even under a microscope. Their existence has to be
                  > logically inferred.
                  >>
                  >> Jain seers have said that one should accept whatever appeals to
                  > ones rationality and logic and discard the rest.
                  >>
                  >> It is upto you to take the call. Jains cite observable inequalities
                  > and sufferings as validation of Karmic theory. Please come up with
                  > something specific to discuss that can be logically analysed.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >>
                  >> Anish
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: jbkranger
                  >> To: jainlist@yahoogroup s.com
                  >> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:47 PM
                  >> Subject: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some
                  > references.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> If Jainism is based on reason (as it claims) can you give any
                  > proof
                  >> of the claims you make below?
                  >>
                  >> Joey
                  >> --- In jainlist@yahoogroup s.com, "Anish A Shah" <anishshah19@ >
                  >> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > Dear Mehulbhai, Manishbhai, Dr. Devakumarji and friends,
                  >> >
                  >> > Jai Jinendra,
                  >> >
                  >> > Thanks for throwing additional light on the subject. The
                  > question
                  >> of rebirth and nigod is quite an interesting topic. Dr. Padmanabh
                  >> Jaini has explained this lucidly in his book - Collected Papers
                  > of
                  >> Jaina Studies, Ch. 7 - Karma and the Problem of Rebirth in
                  > Jainism.
                  >> Synopsis of the same is as under :-
                  >> >
                  >> > 1) Concept of karma is an original Jain and pre-aryan concept.
                  >> >
                  >> > 2) Jaina view on re-birth and transmigration of soul is quite
                  >> distinct from the brahminical concept. According to Vedic
                  > description
                  >> the soul after death dwells as a preta for 12 days and then is
                  > freed
                  >> from this limbo thru the ritual of sraddh by the son of deceased,
                  > it
                  >> travels to the realm of the father - pitruloka. Eventually it is
                  >> brought back thru rains and absorbed by plants entering the food
                  >> chain and becomes associated with the male who has eaten the
                  > fruit.
                  >> This is of course not accepted by jainas as the soul reincarnates
                  >> into another body almost immediately (maximum 3 moments) after
                  > the
                  >> death. This invalidates the doctrine of sraddh as how can
                  > one "feed"
                  >> a soul who has already taken up next incarnation. The
                  > intermediate
                  >> state (max 3 moments) between two embodiments is called
                  > vigrahagati.
                  >> But the soul is not totally without emobdiment as it is
                  > accompanied
                  >> by the Karmana sarira and taijasa sarira.
                  >> >
                  >> > 3) The lowest level of existence that a soul can reincarnate or
                  >> exist is nigoda which do not possess individual body, but exist
                  > as a
                  >> parasitic colonial cluster living and dying as a same group,
                  >> attaining re-birth eighteen times within a space of single human
                  >> breath. They are found in every nook and corner of the universe
                  >> particularly flesh and roots except on the bodies of demi-gods,
                  >> hellish beings and elemental bodies.
                  >> >
                  >> > 4) Nigodas are of two types - itara-nigoda (i.e. those souls
                  > which
                  >> have been at higher states but fallen back to nigoda due to
                  > certain
                  >> deeds) and nitya-nigoda (i.e. those that have never been out of
                  >> nigoda existence upto now)
                  >> >
                  >> > 5) Nitya nigioda are the inexhaustible reservoir of souls. Rate
                  > at
                  >> which the souls are released from nitya nigoda into higher states
                  > is
                  >> equal or more than the souls that are liberated.
                  >> >
                  >> > 6) What sort of deed one must commit in order to deserve a
                  > birth in
                  >> nigoda? Scriptures give example of Makkali Gosala whose soul was
                  >> doomed to be in nigoda for propagating false belief that
                  > knowledge
                  >> and efforts have no role in liberation.
                  >> >
                  >> > Michhami Dukkadam
                  >> >
                  >> > Anish Shah
                  >> >
                  >> > ----- Original Message -----
                  >> > From: mehul_turakhia
                  >> > To: jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com
                  >> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:51 AM
                  >> > Subject: [jainismforworld] Re: What happens after death - some
                  >> references.
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Dear Manishji and friends,
                  >> > Jaya jinendra
                  >> >
                  >> > Here is a road map based on swetambar literature.
                  >> >
                  >> > (A) Jain thok are compilation of snippets from Jain agams. It
                  > is
                  >> > collection of simplified postulates, theorems, for entry into
                  >> agams
                  >> > after proper digestion. It is erudice literature with certain
                  >> > filters , so that our brain can digest very complicated meaning
                  >> of
                  >> > jinvani which is with infinite depth and meaning.
                  >> >
                  >> > They are popular in sthanakwasi- sadhumargi , and terapanthi
                  >> > branches. Similarly we have prakaran granth in dehrawasi
                  >> branches.
                  >> >
                  >> > (B)
                  >> > One can find 563 types of jiva in the 25 bol thoks. (basis
                  >> > Pannavana.etc. )
                  >> >
                  >> > (B 1)
                  >> >
                  >> > There is "chhoti gat-agat" i.e.Gat is to go. Agat is to come.
                  > The
                  >> > smaller version is found in Pannava. The thok is called "small
                  >> gar-
                  >> > agat"
                  >> > It depicts rules for transmigration of lives. Where which jiva
                  >> can go
                  >> > and from where it can come. There are systematic principles and
                  >> > order . for. Eg. A dev does not become a dev on death and
                  >> similarly a
                  >> > narak does not become a narak. Here is a sample.
                  >> >
                  >> > From Only open route of transmigration.
                  >> > Dev -- Manushya, tiryanch (dev, narak , sidhha are no entry
                  >> > routes.)
                  >> > Narak - Manushya tiryanch
                  >> > Tiryanch - dev, manushya, narak , tiryanch
                  >> > Manushya - dev, manushya , narak , tiryanch, sidhha
                  >> > Sidhha - no movement This is 5 x 5 array.
                  >> >
                  >> > (C )
                  >> >
                  >> > There is bigger gata-gat , compiled by Achharyas. Very
                  >> systematic .
                  >> > array of 563 x 563 . Mind boggling.
                  >> >
                  >> > (D )
                  >> >
                  >> > The karma granth define rules for karma before , during and
                  > after
                  >> > transmigration. Very systematic. Under different gunasthans,
                  >> under
                  >> > different gati. Etc.
                  >> >
                  >> > There are certain variations found with agams at few places.
                  >> > Mishrimalji of sthanakwasi has done a good compilation in his
                  >> karma
                  >> > granth.
                  >> >
                  >> > The description of Ayu karma under different heads gives some
                  >> mental
                  >> > picture of the basic process of transmigration and vast
                  >> dimensions,
                  >> > basic rules, nature of ayu, why a particular next brith, etc.
                  >> >
                  >> > Bhagawati ang agam, Uvavai ang agam has basis in swetambar
                  >> agams .
                  >> > (Karma granth are written about 800 - 900 years before present
                  >> > times. ( vikram 12 th century ) Agamic vachnas are 2500 years
                  > old
                  >> as
                  >> > per historians. Hence judgement is required in determining the
                  >> order
                  >> > of precedence.
                  >> >
                  >> > Gommatsar can be equivalent to karma granth in digambar
                  >> literature.
                  >> >
                  >> > (E)
                  >> >
                  >> > The gunasthan thok defines what happens when a jiva dies during
                  >> the
                  >> > shreni - Upsam shreni . It also clarifies, How the attainment
                  > of
                  >> > samyaktva stops the ayu bandh of narak, tiryanch, stree ved,
                  > etc.
                  >> >
                  >> > (F)
                  >> >
                  >> > The thok of gyan in Bhagawati ang agam define, how many gyans
                  > and
                  >> > agyans are carried by 563 types of jiva during transmigration. -
                  >
                  >> very
                  >> > thought provoking. Out of total 5 gyan, 3 agyan, 4 darshan.
                  > Total
                  >> 12
                  >> > upayog. It is basically 563 x 12 array.
                  >> >
                  >> > (G)
                  >> >
                  >> > The thok of Kaya sthiti of Pannavana will define basic rule of
                  >> > maximum stay in a particular yoni by a specific jiva. The
                  >> shortest
                  >> > and longest specific stay in a yoni, a particular jati, and
                  > many
                  >> > different heads. The ground rule of stay after which a jiva is
                  >> > automatically evicted to different place. If one does not use
                  > the
                  >> > opportunity of human life, what are consequences, is clarified
                  >> > here.
                  >> >
                  >> > There is one chapter in Uttaradhyayan 10 chapter advice by
                  >> Mahavir
                  >> > swami to Gautam to remain vigilant - on remaining apramatt.
                  > Here
                  >> > also the longest stay is defined in each yoni under different
                  >> > assumptions.
                  >> >
                  >> > This is foundation for many complicated agamic understanding.
                  >> >
                  >> > (H)
                  >> >
                  >> > The thok of Laghu dandak defines the longetivity of age in each
                  >> of
                  >> > 563 jivas. This is based on Jivabhigam ang agam. This defines
                  > the
                  >> > longest possible stay after which one cannot stay longer for a
                  >> > particular birth , so indirectly it gives the limit of stay
                  > like
                  >> > limit of lease agreement in rented house - body .
                  >> >
                  >> > (I) The pannavana thok on "sopkrami" etc. will define the
                  > process
                  >> of
                  >> > ayu bandth and likely time of ocuurance in a life span. This is
                  >> > ground rule for need for being constantly awake/vigilant and
                  >> apramat
                  >> > avastha .
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Different sampradaya have publications of thok. / karma granth.
                  >> > Thus vast references exist under vyavahar naya .This is not
                  >> > exhaustive list .
                  >> >
                  >> > This is just overview.
                  >> >
                  >> > In order to understand reality, understand complexity of life
                  >> > science and cosmos as per jain view, develop better dharma
                  > dhyan,
                  >> > avoid arta and raudra dhyan, better concentration etc., Agamkar
                  >> has
                  >> > given a large elaboration of vyavahar as is evident from above
                  >> > citings.
                  >> >
                  >> > Legends
                  >> >
                  >> > Cannonical literature. Swetambar Agams
                  >> > Pannavana, Bhagawati, uttaradhyayn, Jiva abhigam, Uvavai
                  >> >
                  >> > Old sacred texts : Karma granth, Gommatsar.
                  >> >
                  >> > All errors are mine.
                  >> >
                  >> > Mehul
                  >> >
                  >> > --- In jainismforworld@ yahoogroups. com, "MANISH MODI"
                  >> > <manishymodi@ > wrote:
                  >> > >
                  >> > > Learned friends,
                  >> > > Jay Jinendra
                  >> > >
                  >> > > I would like to thank Prof Devakumarji for trying to explain
                  >> what
                  >> > happens to
                  >> > > the soul after death. I would request to him further
                  > enlighten
                  >> us
                  >> > on this
                  >> > > subject using quotes from Jain scriptures. I am keen on
                  > reading
                  >> > more on this
                  >> > > specific topic but have not found a lot of information in
                  > this
                  >> > subject in
                  >> > > the writings of Acarya Pujyapada, Kundakunda and
                  >> Samantabhadra. '
                  >> > >
                  >> > > Also I would like to know more about nigoda jivas. With
                  >> scripture
                  >> > refs.
                  >> > >
                  >> > > Sreepalanji and Mehoolbhai Turakhia are also requested to
                  > help
                  >> me
                  >> > in this
                  >> > > regard.
                  >> > >
                  >> > > yours
                  >> > > M
                  >> > >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Office firewalls, cyber cafes, college labs, don't allow you
                  > to download CHAT? Click here:
                  > http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
                • jbkranger
                  -Absolutely. Then we don t need to reference the Jain texts on this subject, since they are outdated. Thank you Joey - ... in science ... exists, however keeps
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    -Absolutely. Then we don't need to reference the Jain texts on this
                    subject, since they are outdated. Thank you

                    Joey -
                    - In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, Shreyas Shah <shreyas_shah@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory
                    in science
                    >
                    > "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?
                    >
                    > The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible yet
                    exists, however keeps on changing forms.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Shrish Jain
                    Thats true. Energy is form of pudgal- since it can be converted to mass and vice versa. While soul can not be converted to pudgal and vice versa. We can find
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thats true.

                      Energy is form of pudgal- since it can be converted to mass and vice versa. While soul can not be converted to pudgal and vice versa.

                      We can find an analgoy between soul and energy, but making a statement :"The soul could be some way equated to energy " is wrong.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: subhash-jain@...
                      To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:52 AM
                      Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.


                      The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of two
                      independent substances. Deeds that are done by one may not be done by
                      the other. For example a physically strong person may not be able to
                      control his or her desire, while on the other hand a physically weak
                      person may be able to do that.

                      Subhash Jain
                      Quoting Shreyas Shah <shreyas_shah@...>:

                      > Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory in science
                      >
                      > "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?
                      >
                      > The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible yet
                      > exists, however keeps on changing forms.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • jbkranger
                      The we are back to my original question in a sense. If Jainism is based on reason, where can we find evidence of a soul? There is none. Joey ... vice versa.
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 9, 2007
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                        The we are back to my original question in a sense. If Jainism is
                        based on reason, where can we find evidence of a soul? There is none.
                        Joey

                        --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Shrish Jain" <shrishjain@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thats true.
                        >
                        > Energy is form of pudgal- since it can be converted to mass and
                        vice versa. While soul can not be converted to pudgal and vice versa.
                        >
                        > We can find an analgoy between soul and energy, but making a
                        statement :"The soul could be some way equated to energy " is wrong.
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: subhash-jain@...
                        > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:52 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some
                        references.
                        >
                        >
                        > The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of
                        two
                        > independent substances. Deeds that are done by one may not be
                        done by
                        > the other. For example a physically strong person may not be able
                        to
                        > control his or her desire, while on the other hand a physically
                        weak
                        > person may be able to do that.
                        >
                        > Subhash Jain
                        > Quoting Shreyas Shah <shreyas_shah@...>:
                        >
                        > > Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known
                        theory in science
                        > >
                        > > "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?
                        > >
                        > > The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible
                        yet
                        > > exists, however keeps on changing forms.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • subhash-jain@uiowa.edu
                        One can use logic to establish the existence of soul. Scientists have been attempting for a long time to stimulate matter that has conciousness, but without
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 9, 2007
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                          One can use logic to establish the existence of soul. Scientists have
                          been attempting for a long time to stimulate matter that has
                          conciousness, but without any success. They have been successful in
                          synthesizing DNA. RNA, genes, proteins, etc., but all these are
                          different modes of matter. Until they succeed in synthesizing matter
                          with conciousness, we will have to work on the premise that
                          conciousness is not one of the qualities of matter. We can then infer
                          by involking the quality of Individuality of substance that
                          conciousness is the quality of a substance other than matter. We call
                          this metaphysical substance as soul.

                          Subhash Jain
                          of Quoting jbkranger <jbkranger@...>:

                          > The we are back to my original question in a sense. If Jainism is
                          > based on reason, where can we find evidence of a soul? There is none.
                          > Joey
                          >
                        • Sreepalan VC
                          Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Shrish Jain , Shri Subhash Jain Let soul secure Samyakthva. Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard. ‘Know
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 9, 2007
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                            Samyak Darshan

                             

                            Dear Shri Shrish Jain , Shri Subhash Jain

                             

                            Let soul secure Samyakthva.

                             

                            Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.

                            ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Acharya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

                             

                            Sub: What happens after death?- on Energy

                            Ref: Wednesday, May 9, 2007 9:22:17 AM

                             

                            Quite an intelligent approach but it is the method that is applied to establish one's view, carries defect.

                             

                            Let us attempt to analyze the two views:

                             

                            Shri Shrish Jain: <shrishjain@...>

                            Energy is form of pudgal- since it can be converted to mass and vice versa. While soul can not be converted to pudgal and vice versa.

                            We can find an analgoy between soul and energy, but making a statement :"The soul could be some way equated to energy " is wrong.

                             

                            Shri Subhash Jain:

                            The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of two
                            independent substances.

                             

                            This is in keeping with the vitraag Jina Dharma. How is explained hereunder.

                             

                            Analysis:

                            Here our valued participant disproves that the energy concept placed by another valued participant on the basis of science. Here, the source or yard stick to verify the effectiveness or truth fullness of vitraag Jina Dharma is science. The former viz., science is purely a thesis restricted to dead inert physical matter which is short of information or has no capacity to enter into the realm of spirituality, could there be any doubt?

                             

                            That apart, Venerable Acharya Shri Umaswamy's Shri Thathvaartha Sutra and its commentary Shri Sarvaartha Siddhi by Venerable Acharyia Shri Pujyapaada, translated into English by Prof. S A Jain, very understandably makes out an unassailable axiom that substances are energy as it is functional ceaselessly..

                             

                             Shri Thathvaartha Sutra:

                            "Dhravyaani" - Ch V Sutra 2

                            Means: These (medium of motion, medium of rest, space and matter) are substances.

                             

                            "Jivasca" Ch V Sutra 3

                            Means: The souls are substances.

                             

                            "Guna paryaayavat dhrvyam" Ch V Sutra -38

                            Means: That which has qualities and modes is a substance.

                             

                            "Sat dhravya Lakshanam" means Ch V Sutra -29

                            Means: Existence (being or sat) is the differentia of a substance and in short that which exists is substance.

                             

                            "utpaad vyya dhruva yukktham sat" Ch V Sutra 30

                            Means: Existence is characterized by origination, disappearance (destruction) and permanence.

                             

                            From the above it should be clear now soul is no less a substance and carries in it all those requirements to be a substance from the beginning less time to all the times to come.

                             

                            Secondly, the ‘conversion’ talked about is the nature of pudgal as the very word implies as follows:

                            Pudgal = pudna  = coming together or integration + galna = getting separated or disintegration.  This is the nature of pudgal and not that of any other substanace.

                             

                            Attempting to equate separation in both soul and matter is untenable proposition.

                             

                            Conclusion:

                            Soul is a substance full and complete. It is no less an energy nothing less nothing more than any other substances in respect of their independence and existence that constitute this universe.

                             

                            Further more the absence of soul in the universe is as good as absence of the very universe, as none of the other constituents have the capability to know and see. So, it is any one’s inference that soul is knowing and seeing energy.

                             

                            Soul has one special quality called anantha virya means infinite energy

                             

                            Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information and it is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiency thereby help understanding better.

                             

                            Welcome for any further clarification

                             

                            Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                             

                            Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

                             

                            Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

                             

                            Yours brotherly,

                            Sreepalan

                             

                             



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Shrish Jain <shrishjain@...>
                            To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2007 9:22:17 AM
                            Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.

                            Thats true.

                            Energy is form of pudgal- since it can be converted to mass and vice versa. While soul can not be converted to pudgal and vice versa.

                            We can find an analgoy between soul and energy, but making a statement :"The soul could be some way equated to energy " is wrong.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: subhash-jain@ uiowa.edu
                            To: jainlist@yahoogroup s.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:52 AM
                            Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: What happens after death - some references.

                            The physical energy and the spiritual energy are the qualities of two
                            independent substances. Deeds that are done by one may not be done by
                            the other. For example a physically strong person may not be able to
                            control his or her desire, while on the other hand a physically weak
                            person may be able to do that.

                            Subhash Jain
                            Quoting Shreyas Shah <shreyas_shah@ yahoo.com>:

                            > Can this be explained with a plain energy of the well known theory in science
                            >
                            > "Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms" ?
                            >
                            > The soul could be some way equated to energy which is invisible yet
                            > exists, however keeps on changing forms.
                            >
                            >
                            >




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