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Re: [JainList] Can someone explain something to me?

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  • punmiya vishal
    hi this is vishal punmiya i do agree with u shilpaji it is true i dont know much about it but somewhere it is true i myself is jain ...
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2007
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      hi this is vishal punmiya
      i do agree with u shilpaji it is true i dont know much about it
      but somewhere it is true
      i myself is jain


      >From: Shilpa Shah <shilpashah1@...>
      >Reply-To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
      >To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [JainList] Can someone explain something to me?
      >Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:57:45 -0800 (PST)
      >
      >Although there might not be any scientific proof of reincarnation, I
      >personally can accept the concept of reincarnation and karma for the
      >following reason: It is the only way (that I am aware of) of explaining
      >why some people are born into priveledged circumstances, while others are
      >born into poverty or illness. It is said that one's actions from previous
      >lives determine what one's next life will be like. For instance, a person
      >who was kind and benevolent in a previous like is more likely to be born in
      >a healthy, stable, and nurturing environment in the next life. While a
      >person who committed atrocious crimes in a previous life is more likely to
      >be born crippled, homeless, hungry, etc. The concept actually goes much
      >deeper than this, but I am oversimplifying it for the sake of explanation
      >here. The basic idea though is the concept of cause and effect.
      >
      > -Shilpa
      >
      >jbkranger <jbkranger@...> wrote:
      > I have been reading a lot about Jainism for the last 3-4 months.
      >I am
      >very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith). The claim that
      >Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed to me. Many places
      >I read however that Jains believe in a soul and reincarnation.
      >
      >Obviously, there is no rational basis for this belief. I was
      >wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can Jainism believe in soul
      >when there is no scientific proof?
      >
      >JOey
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >---------------------------------
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    • jain ashu
      Hi Shilpa, I am Ashu. Few question comes to my mind after reading your mail. Plese read thhem if you can help me. Its good that you believe in soul and
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2007
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        Hi Shilpa,
        I am Ashu. Few question comes to my mind after reading your mail. Plese read thhem if you can help me.
        Its good that you believe in soul and reincarnation. You say that a person gets a new life on the basis of his karmas in his previous lives. OK. It seem true at first sight. Now the questions arises is that if so happens then it means that he has to suffer for his karmas on this earth only. The jain amnay states that the concept of Swarg and narak do exists( As per jain Bhoogol  and various jain literatures ). Then what is the purpose served by these swarag and naraks. Furthermore when you justify that he suffers for his karmas on this earth, then one more Jain theory collides that This earth is only the karm bhoomi and not the bhog bhoomi. Only in the Mahavideh shetra, the karma bhoomi and Bhog bhoomi exists together.
        Its said that soul is the ultimate truth and the purest truth in this universe. The jain amnay says that there are five bodies in each human being - Karmanic shareer, Shusm Shareer etc. Can you tell me after death, which body goes where and to which body our karmas are associated with and which body is associated with the soul?
         
        Waiting for your reply,
        Ashu Jain

        Shilpa Shah <shilpashah1@...> wrote:
        Although there might not be any scientific proof of reincarnation, I personally can accept the concept of reincarnation and karma for the following reason:  It is the only way (that I am aware of) of explaining why some people are born into priveledged circumstances, while others are born into poverty or illness.  It is said that one's actions from previous lives determine what one's next life will be like.  For instance, a person who was kind and benevolent in a previous like is more likely to be born in a healthy, stable, and nurturing environment in the next life.  While a person who committed atrocious crimes in a previous life is more likely to be born crippled, homeless, hungry, etc.  The concept actually goes much deeper than this, but I am oversimplifying it for the sake of explanation here.  The basic idea though is the concept of cause and effect.
         
        -Shilpa

        jbkranger <jbkranger@aol. com> wrote:
        I have been reading a lot about Jainism for the last 3-4 months. I am
        very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith). The claim that
        Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed to me. Many places
        I read however that Jains believe in a soul and reincarnation.

        Obviously, there is no rational basis for this belief. I was
        wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can Jainism believe in soul
        when there is no scientific proof?

        JOey



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      • Naresh Shah
        Dear Friends: Jai Jinendra. Reincarnation (rebirth) and karma go together. This can be explained with the following: All brothers or all sisters of same
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Dear Friends:

          Jai Jinendra. Reincarnation (rebirth) and karma go together. This can be explained with the following:

           All brothers or all sisters of same parents are different from the birth (mother can tell this within a couple of weeks). All have different taste or hobies or interests. All have different destiny. We see this everywhere in this world. Only way this can be explained is that each one has accrued different types & different amount of karma in the previous lives.

          Regards,

          Naresh 


          From: Shilpa Shah <shilpashah1@...>
          Reply-To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [JainList] Can someone explain something to me?
          Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:57:45 -0800 (PST)

          Although there might not be any scientific proof of reincarnation, I personally can accept the concept of reincarnation and karma for the following reason:  It is the only way (that I am aware of) of explaining why some people are born into priveledged circumstances, while others are born into poverty or illness.  It is said that one's actions from previous lives determine what one's next life will be like.  For instance, a person who was kind and benevolent in a previous like is more likely to be born in a healthy, stable, and nurturing environment in the next life.  While a person who committed atrocious crimes in a previous life is more likely to be born crippled, homeless, hungry, etc.  The concept actually goes much deeper than this, but I am oversimplifying it for the sake of explanation here.  The basic idea though is the concept of cause and effect.
           
          -Shilpa

          jbkranger <jbkranger@aol. com> wrote:
          I have been reading a lot about Jainism for the last 3-4 months. I am
          very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith). The claim that
          Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed to me. Many places
          I read however that Jains believe in a soul and reincarnation.

          Obviously, there is no rational basis for this belief. I was
          wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can Jainism believe in soul
          when there is no scientific proof?

          JOey



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        • Sreepalan VC
          Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Hemang Ajmera, Shri Sanjay Jain, Shri J B Kranger and Shri Ashu Jain Let soul secure Samyakthva Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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            Samyak Darshan

            Dear Shri Hemang Ajmera, Shri Sanjay Jain,
            Shri J B Kranger and Shri Ashu Jain

            Let soul secure Samyakthva
            Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou
            shall be heard.
            ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ is by the Kevalin, for
            the Kevalin and of the Kevalin - Acharya Shri Kund
            Kund Dev.

            Sub: on soul
            Ref: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:07:07 -0800 (PST)

            Splendid indeed is the rendition on soul.

            On non-violence:
            Violence is suffering or pain that is felt by the
            mundane soul due to its own ignorance of attaching
            itself with dead inert matter called body in which it
            is housed; although it is an independent substance and
            in adhyaathmic language it is ‘moha’ – delusion of
            soul misbelieving itself as body.

            Substance is one which subsists by itself.

            You know that no substance can subsist with out all
            the qualities in tact and functional all through. All
            the qualities of soul are non physical and hence how
            can it affect or cause injury to another soul? But due
            to its beginning less ignorance of its own qualities
            or properties, it knows and believes as body alone or
            body and soul together. Hence anyone bodied soul that
            is believing as above, if its deemed bodily comforts
            are disturbed, it acts to retaliate and the chain
            continues.

            Therefore, soul as such by nature cannot be non
            violent.

            If soul could be non violent, it is to its own self –
            swa himsa - by its wrong faith and knowledge –
            mithyaathva.

            But due to its ignorance of its permanence and bliss
            being their inalienable and inexhaustible qualities,
            it is attempting from the beginning less time to
            secure itself or attain happiness by accumulating dead
            inert matter which is scarce as against insatiable
            thirst or demand for it. Thus external non-violence -
            para ahimsa - comes into existence which is the
            subject matter.

            On soul:
            A point to ponder over and arrive at a conclusion on
            the statement:
            Your statement:
            Now there are different means of knowing things:
            1. To perceive
            2. To derive logically
            3. To experience

            Analysis:
            To perceive, to derive logically and to experience are
            all the functions of gynaan gunn of soul; besides
            recognizing, understanding, realizing, feeling etc.,
            which expressions all fall with in the perimeter of
            paryaaya of Kowing and seeing – gynaatha and dhrishta
            – upyoga - of gynaan gunn.

            Can that be said as means of knowing?

            It is the gynaan gunn that is analytical and critical
            in its evaluation of information that fall on its
            screen. All the qualities of soul are ‘nirvikalp’ –
            non analytical - excepting gynaan gunn which is
            ‘savikalp’- analytical meaning capable of analyzing.

            So it is opined to believe that knowing and seeing is
            all embracing a concept which covers all that is said
            of paryaayas of gynaan gunn of soul.

            For example:
            Sun gets the name viz., baskarn – giving out glow,
            dinakaran – causing day, sooryan – giving light,
            pagalavan – maker of day light, kadiranvan – owner of
            rays etc. This is similar to that

            On its eternity and reincarnation:
            As rightly posted by your good selves, matter cannot
            be created and destroyed i.e., ‘is’ cannot become ‘is
            not’ and vice se versa to give a scientific face to
            the concept which perhaps would give strength and
            courage for the questioner to reason out.

            How it continues to exist is only in two stages viz.,
            01) embodied – mundane existence engrossed in other
            than self and 02) liberated – Siddha – pure knowing
            and seeing energy engrossed in itself.

            When soul goes from one body to another it continues
            to be called embodied as ’kamic’ body and ‘thejas’
            body continues until it is completely devoid of all
            the karmic dust.

            This is transmigration- 'reincarnation’ and is called
            the cycle of birth and death.

            When it is liberated by its own intrinsic capability
            from knowing and seeing of other than self, it
            relieves itself from housing in a dead, inert, non
            conscious, physical material called body and remains
            in its pure nature as soul.

            Attempt is made to present the best that is known and
            it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s
            expectation and information and it is earnest and
            sincere request to bring out the defects and
            insufficiency thereby help understanding better.

            Welcome for any further clarification

            Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

            Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
            Samykathva.

            Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

            Yours brotherly,
            Sreepalan


            --- Hemang Ajmera <mailhemangajmera@...> wrote:

            > Hi Joey
            > Jai Jinendra, Jai Gurudev
            >
            > The definition of soul varies from religion to
            > religion and faith to faith.
            > As per Jainism, universe consists of six unique
            > substances, they are life(soul), matter, space,
            > time, dharma(substance which supports movement of
            > other substances) and adharma(substance which helps
            > other substance to come to rest)
            >
            > Now there are different means of knowing things:
            > 1. To perceive
            > 2. To derive logically
            > 3. To experience
            >
            > The proof that water exists is you can see it,
            > perceive it. The proof that air exist can be derived
            > logically.
            > Of the six substance mentioned above, science
            > believes only in 3, matter space and time, and it
            > believes the life is part or matter only.
            >
            > Here are the reasons why life is not same as not the
            > part of the matter:
            > 1. Matter do not have any property of consciousness.
            > So no matter what you do, or whatever happens to
            > matter, matter cannot produce consciousness.
            > 2. Let say we make a device which detects red light
            > and when it detects the light it prints out "I see
            > red light", now there is a matter which claims that
            > it "SEES" red light. Does it really see red light,
            > Can it ever "KNOW" what it is typing?
            > 3. There is no way matter can know, but we know for
            > sure that we CAN know, that means there is more than
            > matter in us which is responsible for knowing. That
            > something more is nothing but the soul. Thus proving
            > logically that soul exists
            > 4. We all know that matter cannot be created nor it
            > can be destroyed, it can change its form, in the
            > same way space cannot be created nor can be
            > destroyed, time cannot be created nor can be
            > destroyed... In general substances are not created
            > and cannot be destroyed. Similarly, soul cannot be
            > created nor it can be destroyed. This makes it
            > eternal. What does eternity means to soul? When
            > someone dies soul moves out of the body. We all know
            > what happens to body, the question is what happens
            > to soul? Soul takes another body. This is nothing
            > but rebirth or reincarnation.
            >
            > Now I have one question for you. If soul does not
            > exists then who is asking the question "How does
            > Jainism believes in soul when there is no scientific
            > proof?"
            > Well, Brain is not the answer. Because if brain had
            > the capability to know, why cant a dead person know?
            > Brain does the processing and storing of all the
            > information it gets, but it is soul who knows them.
            > It is the soul which has quest to know more. Brain
            > is just a medium like eyes is a medium to see.
            >
            > Although I have persued by Masters in Science, I
            > have low opinion about science when comparing it to
            > Jainism, and this is obviously for a reason. Here
            > are some of the limitations of science.
            > 1. As per science Newton's laws of motion were all
            > perfect until Einstien came up with relativity.
            > After relativity, Newton's laws were no longer
            > perfect, they were very good approximation when the
            > dealing with motion having low speed. Now even
            > Einstiens theory is being questioned. This fact
            > proves that the theories by scientists may not be
            > 100% accurate.
            >
            > 2. There was a time when science was not knowing the
            > plants have life but Jainism knew it.
            >
            > 3. Science was not knowing about microbes, but
            > Jainism knew it.
            >
            > 4. Science was not knowing that Sun's radiation
            > disinfects food from many of the germs, but Jainism
            > knew it.
            >
            > 5. Science used to assume that Space is continuous
            > until Quantum theory. Jainism knew that space was
            > discrete. Although the terms used in Jainism are
            > different (Space is made up of pradesh, and any
            > particle has to be in one of the pradesh it can
            > never be in between two or at the boundary. Pradesh
            > can not be further divided. This means that space is
            > discrete and not continuous)
            >
            > 6. Science still believes that darkness is simply
            > absence of light. But now theories are being
            > developed that darkness has its own existence.
            > However Jainism beleives that darkness and light are
            > separate. What is your opinon about it? Will you
            > wait till this is prooven by science.
            > There are many more examples and evidence which
            > shows that science is lagging behind. After few
            > decades science might prove existence of soul !! I
            > dont want to wait till then.
            >
            > There are few rare cases where people got the
            > memories of their past lives. Science has no
            > explanation for it. But Jainism has!!
            >
            >
            > I will end with one example. While cooking rice, we
            > check for few grains if they not raw and ready.
            > Based on few sample we conclude that others are also
            > cooked and not raw. We do not check each and every
            > grain. Same way what Lord Mahavir has said is like
            > grain. I am not able to prove everything, but from
            > whatever I have known and seen, I have all reasons
            > to believe that whatever he had said is nothing but
            > 100% truth. I have this confidence and faith in Lord
            > Mahavir, and more I study about Jainism more is the
            > faith.
            >
            > Jainism DOES believes in faith, but does not believe
            > in blind faith. Jainism wants people to have faith
            > only when they have reason to have faith, not just
            > because Lord Mahavir or anyone else has said
            > something. Believe me, every one has faith in
            > something. You have faith in science, I am sure you
            > havent done all the experiments in the world nor
            > have you proved all the theories that exists, but
            > still you believe them because you have faith in
            > them.
            >
            > As per Jainism, more than anything one should have
            > faith in oneselves. Unless you believe in yourself,
            > you cannot achieve liberation.
            > Although interest in both Jainism and Science is due
            > to quest of knowledge, I believe that we should not
            > compare them for two reasons:
            > 1. Science is still evolving, and Jainism is fully
            > evolved
            > 2. Science is completely focussing on matter and
            > Jainism has complete focus on self (soul)
            >
            > If said anything against Jin vaani, Micchami
            > dukkadam
            >
            > Regards
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: jbkranger <jbkranger@...>
            > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:22:52 PM
            > Subject: [JainList] Can someone explain something to
            > me?
            >
            > I have been reading a lot about Jainism for the last
            > 3-4 months. I am
            > very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith).
            > The claim that
            > Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed
            > to me. Many places
            > I read however that Jains believe in a soul and
            > reincarnation.
            >
            > Obviously, there is no rational basis for this
            > belief. I was
            > wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can
            > Jainism believe in soul
            > when there is no scientific proof?
            >
            > JOey
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Priyabrat Mishra
            Hi Ashu ji I am a memeber in JainList Yahoo Group, I can answer one of your question, thought will send a reply. which is Then what is the purpose served by
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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              Hi Ashu ji

              I am a memeber in JainList Yahoo Group, I can answer
              one of your question, thought will send a reply.

              which is "Then what is the purpose served
              by these swarag and naraks."

              The Swarag and Narak servers the puepose for the
              unseen world which may be pitru will be living during
              their transition to from Pitru Lok to Dev lok, Asur
              Lok etc.

              If anyone gives you a better and convincing reply
              please do share with me.

              Thanking You
              Priyabrat


              --- jain ashu <jainashu_99@...> wrote:

              > Hi Shilpa,
              > I am Ashu. Few question comes to my mind after
              > reading your mail. Plese read thhem if you can help
              > me.
              > Its good that you believe in soul and
              > reincarnation. You say that a person gets a new life
              > on the basis of his karmas in his previous lives.
              > OK. It seem true at first sight. Now the questions
              > arises is that if so happens then it means that he
              > has to suffer for his karmas on this earth only. The
              > jain amnay states that the concept of Swarg and
              > narak do exists( As per jain Bhoogol and various
              > jain literatures ). Then what is the purpose served
              > by these swarag and naraks. Furthermore when you
              > justify that he suffers for his karmas on this
              > earth, then one more Jain theory collides that This
              > earth is only the karm bhoomi and not the bhog
              > bhoomi. Only in the Mahavideh shetra, the karma
              > bhoomi and Bhog bhoomi exists together.
              > Its said that soul is the ultimate truth and the
              > purest truth in this universe. The jain amnay says
              > that there are five bodies in each human being -
              > Karmanic shareer, Shusm Shareer etc. Can you tell me
              > after death, which body goes where and to which body
              > our karmas are associated with and which body is
              > associated with the soul?
              >
              > Waiting for your reply,
              > Ashu Jain
              >
              > Shilpa Shah <shilpashah1@...> wrote:
              > Although there might not be any
              > scientific proof of reincarnation, I personally can
              > accept the concept of reincarnation and karma for
              > the following reason: It is the only way (that I am
              > aware of) of explaining why some people are born
              > into priveledged circumstances, while others are
              > born into poverty or illness. It is said that one's
              > actions from previous lives determine what one's
              > next life will be like. For instance, a person who
              > was kind and benevolent in a previous like is more
              > likely to be born in a healthy, stable, and
              > nurturing environment in the next life. While a
              > person who committed atrocious crimes in a previous
              > life is more likely to be born crippled, homeless,
              > hungry, etc. The concept actually goes much deeper
              > than this, but I am oversimplifying it for the sake
              > of explanation here. The basic idea though is the
              > concept of cause and effect.
              >
              > -Shilpa
              >
              > jbkranger <jbkranger@...> wrote:
              > I have been reading a lot about Jainism for
              > the last 3-4 months. I am
              > very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith).
              > The claim that
              > Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed
              > to me. Many places
              > I read however that Jains believe in a soul and
              > reincarnation.
              >
              > Obviously, there is no rational basis for this
              > belief. I was
              > wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can
              > Jainism believe in soul
              > when there is no scientific proof?
              >
              > JOey
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail
              > arrives. Check it out.
              >
              >
              >
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            • jbkranger@aol.com
              Thank you. This has been very helpful. I think if I substitute the word ego for soul it really makes mor sense for me Joey ... From: sreepal5058@yahoo.com
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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                Thank you. This has been very helpful. I think if I substitute the word "ego" for "soul" it really makes mor sense for me
                 
                Joey 
                 
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: sreepal5058@...
                To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: mailhemangajmera@...; sanjayjainuk@...; jbkranger@...; jainashu_99@...; umesh@...; csmaheshjain@...; sathuj@...; shanchand33@...; rameshsheth@...
                Sent: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 5:57 AM
                Subject: Re: [JainList] Can someone explain something to me? - on soul

                Samyak Darshan
                
                Dear Shri Hemang Ajmera, Shri Sanjay Jain, 
                Shri J B Kranger and Shri Ashu Jain
                
                Let soul secure Samyakthva
                Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou
                shall be heard.
                ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ is by the Kevalin, for
                the Kevalin and of the Kevalin - Acharya Shri Kund
                Kund Dev.
                
                Sub: on soul
                Ref: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:07:07 -0800 (PST)
                
                Splendid indeed is the rendition on soul.
                
                On non-violence:
                Violence is suffering or pain that is felt by the
                mundane soul due to its own ignorance of attaching
                itself with dead inert matter called body in which it
                is housed; although it is an independent substance and
                in adhyaathmic language it is ‘moha’ – delusion of
                soul misbelieving itself as body.
                
                Substance is one which subsists by itself. 
                
                You know that no substance can subsist with out all
                the qualities in tact and functional all through. All
                the qualities of soul are non physical and hence how
                can it affect or cause injury to another soul? But due
                to its beginning less ignorance of its own qualities
                or properties, it knows and believes as body alone or
                body and soul together. Hence anyone bodied soul that
                is believing as above, if its deemed bodily comforts
                are disturbed, it acts to retaliate and the chain
                continues. 
                
                Therefore, soul as such by nature cannot be non
                violent. 
                
                If soul could be non violent, it is to its own self –
                swa himsa - by its wrong faith and knowledge –
                mithyaathva.
                
                But due to its ignorance of its permanence and bliss
                being their inalienable and inexhaustible qualities,
                it is attempting from the beginning less time to
                secure itself or attain happiness by accumulating dead
                inert matter which is scarce as against insatiable
                thirst or demand for it. Thus external non-violence -
                para ahimsa - comes into existence which is the
                subject matter.
                
                On soul:
                A point to ponder over and arrive at a conclusion on
                the statement: 
                Your statement:
                Now there are different means of knowing things:
                1. To perceive
                2. To derive logically
                3. To experience
                
                Analysis:
                To perceive, to derive logically and to experience are
                all the functions of gynaan gunn of soul; besides
                recognizing, understanding, realizing, feeling etc.,
                which expressions all fall with in the perimeter of
                paryaaya of Kowing and seeing – gynaatha and dhrishta
                – upyoga -  of gynaan gunn. 
                
                Can that be said as means of knowing?
                
                It is the gynaan gunn that is analytical and critical
                in its evaluation of information that fall on its
                screen. All the qualities of soul are ‘nirvikalp’ –
                non analytical - excepting gynaan gunn which is
                ‘savikalp’- analytical meaning capable of analyzing. 
                
                So it is opined to believe that knowing and seeing is
                all embracing a concept which covers all that is said
                of paryaayas of gynaan gunn of soul.
                
                For example:
                Sun gets the name viz., baskarn – giving out glow,
                dinakaran – causing day, sooryan – giving light,
                pagalavan – maker of day light, kadiranvan – owner of
                rays etc. This is similar to that 
                
                On its eternity and reincarnation:
                As rightly posted by your good selves, matter cannot
                be created and destroyed i.e., ‘is’ cannot become ‘is
                not’ and vice se versa to give a scientific face to
                the concept which perhaps would give strength and
                courage for the questioner to reason out. 
                
                How it continues to exist is only in two stages viz.,
                01) embodied – mundane existence engrossed in other
                than self and 02) liberated – Siddha – pure knowing
                and seeing energy engrossed in itself. 
                
                When soul goes from one body to another it continues
                to be called embodied as ’kamic’ body and ‘thejas’
                body continues until it is completely devoid of all
                the karmic dust. 
                
                This is transmigration- 'reincarnation’ and is called
                the cycle of birth and death.
                
                When it is liberated by its own intrinsic capability
                from knowing and seeing of other than self, it
                relieves itself from housing in a dead, inert, non
                conscious, physical material called body and remains
                in its pure nature as soul.
                
                Attempt is made to present the best that is known and
                it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s
                expectation and information and it is earnest and
                sincere request to bring out the defects and
                insufficiency thereby help understanding better.
                
                Welcome for any further clarification 
                
                Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
                
                Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
                Samykathva.
                
                Now, it is, for the participants to come up. 
                
                Yours brotherly,
                Sreepalan
                
                
                --- Hemang Ajmera <mailhemangajmera@...> wrote:
                
                
                > Hi Joey > Jai Jinendra, Jai Gurudev > > The definition of soul varies from religion to > religion and faith to faith. > As per Jainism, universe consists of six unique > substances, they are life(soul), matter, space, > time, dharma(substance which supports movement of > other substances) and adharma(substance which helps > other substance to come to rest) > > Now there are different means of knowing things: > 1. To perceive > 2. To derive logically > 3. To experience > > The proof that water exists is you can see it, > perceive it. The proof that air exist can be derived > logically. > Of the six substance mentioned above, science > believes only in 3, matter space and time, and it > believes the life is part or matter only. > > Here are the reasons why life is not same as not the > part of the matter: > 1. Matter do not have any property of consciousness. > So no matter what you do, or whatever happens to > matter, matter cannot produce consciousness. > 2. Let say we make a device which detects red light > and when it detects the light it prints out "I see > red light", now there is a matter which claims that > it "SEES" red light. Does it really see red light, > Can it ever "KNOW" what it is typing? > 3. There is no way matter can know, but we know for > sure that we CAN know, that means there is more than > matter in us which is responsible for knowing. That > something more is nothing but the soul. Thus proving > logically that soul exists > 4. We all know that matter cannot be created nor it > can be destroyed, it can change its form, in the > same way space cannot be created nor can be > destroyed, time cannot be created nor can be > destroyed... In general substances are not created > and cannot be destroyed. Similarly, soul cannot be > created nor it can be destroyed. This makes it > eternal. What does eternity means to soul? When > someone dies soul moves out of the body. We all know > what happens to body, the question is what happens > to soul? Soul takes another body. This is nothing > but rebirth or reincarnation. > > Now I have one question for you. If soul does not > exists then who is asking the question "How does > Jainism believes in soul when there is no scientific > proof?" > Well, Brain is not the answer. Because if brain had > the capability to know, why cant a dead person know? > Brain does the processing and storing of all the > information it gets, but it is soul who knows them. > It is the soul which has quest to know more. Brain > is just a medium like eyes is a medium to see. > > Although I have persued by Masters in Science, I > have low opinion about science when comparing it to > Jainism, and this is obviously for a reason. Here > are some of the limitations of science. > 1. As per science Newton's laws of motion were all > perfect until Einstien came up with relativity. > After relativity, Newton's laws were no longer > perfect, they were very good approximation when the > dealing with motion having low speed. Now even > Einstiens theory is being questioned. This fact > proves that the theories by scientists may not be > 100% accurate. > > 2. There was a time when science was not knowing the > plants have life but Jainism knew it. > > 3. Science was not knowing about microbes, but > Jainism knew it. > > 4. Science was not knowing that Sun's radiation > disinfects food from many of the germs, but Jainism > knew it. > > 5. Science used to assume that Space is continuous > until Quantum theory. Jainism knew that space was > discrete. Although the terms used in Jainism are > different (Space is made up of pradesh, and any > particle has to be in one of the pradesh it can > never be in between two or at the boundary. Pradesh > can not be further divided. This means that space is > discrete and not continuous) > > 6. Science still believes that darkness is simply > absence of light. But now theories are being > developed that darkness has its own existence. > However Jainism beleives that darkness and light are > separate. What is your opinon about it? Will you > wait till this is prooven by science. > There are many more examples and evidence which > shows that science is lagging behind. After few > decades science might prove existence of soul !! I > dont want to wait till then. > > There are few rare cases where people got the > memories of their past lives. Science has no > explanation for it. But Jainism has!! > > > I will end with one example. While cooking rice, we > check for few grains if they not raw and ready. > Based on few sample we conclude that others are also > cooked and not raw. We do not check each and every > grain. Same way what Lord Mahavir has said is like > grain. I am not able to prove everything, but from > whatever I have known and seen, I have all reasons > to believe that whatever he had said is nothing but > 100% truth. I have this confidence and faith in Lord > Mahavir, and more I study about Jainism more is the > faith. > > Jainism DOES believes in faith, but does not believe > in blind faith. Jainism wants people to have faith > only when they have reason to have faith, not just > because Lord Mahavir or anyone else has said > something. Believe me, every one has faith in > something. You have faith in science, I am sure you > havent done all the experiments in the world nor > have you proved all the theories that exists, but > still you believe them because you have faith in > them. > > As per Jainism, more than anything one should have > faith in oneselves. Unless you believe in yourself, > you cannot achieve liberation. > Although interest in both Jainism and Science is due > to quest of knowledge, I believe that we should not > compare them for two reasons: > 1. Science is still evolving, and Jainism is fully > evolved > 2. Science is completely focussing on matter and > Jainism has complete focus on self (soul) > > If said anything against Jin vaani, Micchami > dukkadam > > Regards > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jbkranger <jbkranger@...> > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:22:52 PM > Subject: [JainList] Can someone explain something to > me? > > I have been reading a lot about Jainism for the last > 3-4 months. I am > very much a person of reason (as opposed to faith). > The claim that > Jainism claims to be a philosophy of reason appealed > to me. Many places > I read however that Jains believe in a soul and > reincarnation. > > Obviously, there is no rational basis for this > belief. I was > wondering, do most Jains believe this? How can > Jainism believe in soul > when there is no scientific proof? > > JOey > > > > > > >
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              • Sreepalan VC
                Samyak Darshan Dear Shri J B Kranger, Let soul secure Samyakthva Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard. ‘Know thyself and be
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Samyak Darshan

                  Dear Shri J B Kranger,

                  Let soul secure Samyakthva
                  Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou
                  shall be heard.
                  ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ is by the Kevalin, for
                  the Kevalin and of the Kevalin - Acharya Shri Kund
                  Kund Dev.

                  Sub: Ego and soul
                  Ref: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:06:22 -0500

                  Thank you for perusing the submission and coming up
                  with a suggestion.

                  Ego and soul:
                  Soul is indivisible and self subsisting substance and
                  ‘ego’ is the name given to quality called 'agam'. It
                  means 'is' ness or existence.

                  Soul comprises infinite qualities and these are
                  subdivided in to two viz., special and ordinary. For
                  the immediate and easy recognition the special
                  qualities are infinite knowledge, infinite faith,
                  infinite strength and infinite bliss called
                  inseparable quadruplets besides many other specials.
                  Among the ordinary, asthithva – existence, vasthuthva
                  – functional, prameyathva – exhibiting, avagaganathva
                  – occupying space etc., to quote a few.

                  Now you may apply yourself and attempt to understand
                  Jina Dharma.

                  Attempt is made to present the best that is known and
                  it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s
                  expectation and information and it is earnest and
                  sincere request to bring out the defects and
                  insufficiency thereby help understanding better.

                  Welcome for any further clarification

                  Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                  Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
                  Samykathva.

                  Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

                  Yours brotherly,
                  Sreepalan

                  --- jbkranger@... wrote:

                  > Thank you. This has been very helpful. I think if I
                  > substitute the word "ego" for "soul" it really makes
                  > mor sense for me
                  >
                  > Joey
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: sreepal5058@...
                  > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Cc: mailhemangajmera@...;
                  > sanjayjainuk@...; jbkranger@...;
                  > jainashu_99@...; umesh@...;
                  > csmaheshjain@...; sathuj@...;
                  > shanchand33@...; rameshsheth@...
                  > Sent: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 5:57 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [JainList] Can someone explain
                  > something to me? - on soul
                  >
                  >
                  > Samyak Darshan
                  >
                  > Dear Shri Hemang Ajmera, Shri Sanjay Jain,
                  > Shri J B Kranger and Shri Ashu Jain
                  >
                  > Let soul secure Samyakthva
                  > Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou
                  > shall be heard.
                  > ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ is by the Kevalin,
                  > for
                  > the Kevalin and of the Kevalin - Acharya Shri Kund
                  > Kund Dev.
                  >
                  > Sub: on soul
                  > Ref: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:07:07 -0800 (PST)
                  >
                  > Splendid indeed is the rendition on soul.
                  >
                  > On non-violence:
                  > Violence is suffering or pain that is felt by the
                  > mundane soul due to its own ignorance of attaching
                  > itself with dead inert matter called body in which
                  > it
                  > is housed; although it is an independent substance
                  > and
                  > in adhyaathmic language it is ‘moha’ –
                  > delusion of
                  > soul misbelieving itself as body.
                  >
                  > Substance is one which subsists by itself.
                  >
                  > You know that no substance can subsist with out all
                  > the qualities in tact and functional all through.
                  > All
                  > the qualities of soul are non physical and hence how
                  > can it affect or cause injury to another soul? But
                  > due
                  > to its beginning less ignorance of its own qualities
                  > or properties, it knows and believes as body alone
                  > or
                  > body and soul together. Hence anyone bodied soul
                  > that
                  > is believing as above, if its deemed bodily comforts
                  > are disturbed, it acts to retaliate and the chain
                  > continues.
                  >
                  > Therefore, soul as such by nature cannot be non
                  > violent.
                  >
                  > If soul could be non violent, it is to its own self
                  > –
                  > swa himsa - by its wrong faith and knowledge –
                  > mithyaathva.
                  >
                  > But due to its ignorance of its permanence and bliss
                  > being their inalienable and inexhaustible qualities,
                  > it is attempting from the beginning less time to
                  > secure itself or attain happiness by accumulating
                  > dead
                  > inert matter which is scarce as against insatiable
                  > thirst or demand for it. Thus external non-violence
                  > -
                  > para ahimsa - comes into existence which is the
                  > subject matter.
                  >
                  > On soul:
                  > A point to ponder over and arrive at a conclusion on
                  > the statement:
                  > Your statement:
                  > Now there are different means of knowing things:
                  > 1. To perceive
                  > 2. To derive logically
                  > 3. To experience
                  >
                  > Analysis:
                  > To perceive, to derive logically and to experience
                  > are
                  > all the functions of gynaan gunn of soul; besides
                  > recognizing, understanding, realizing, feeling etc.,
                  > which expressions all fall with in the perimeter of
                  > paryaaya of Kowing and seeing – gynaatha and
                  > dhrishta
                  > – upyoga - of gynaan gunn.
                  >
                  > Can that be said as means of knowing?
                  >
                  > It is the gynaan gunn that is analytical and
                  > critical
                  > in its evaluation of information that fall on its
                  > screen. All the qualities of soul are
                  > ‘nirvikalp’ –
                  > non analytical - excepting gynaan gunn which is
                  > ‘savikalp’- analytical meaning capable of
                  > analyzing.
                  >
                  > So it is opined to believe that knowing and seeing
                  > is
                  > all embracing a concept which covers all that is
                  > said
                  > of paryaayas of gynaan gunn of soul.
                  >
                  > For example:
                  > Sun gets the name viz., baskarn – giving out glow,
                  > dinakaran – causing day, sooryan – giving light,
                  > pagalavan – maker of day light, kadiranvan –
                  > owner of
                  > rays etc. This is similar to that
                  >
                  > On its eternity and reincarnation:
                  > As rightly posted by your good selves, matter cannot
                  > be created and destroyed i.e., ‘is’ cannot
                  > become ‘is
                  > not’ and vice se versa to give a scientific face
                  > to
                  > the concept which perhaps would give strength and
                  > courage for the questioner to reason out.
                  >
                  > How it continues to exist is only in two stages
                  > viz.,
                  > 01) embodied – mundane existence engrossed in
                  > other
                  > than self and 02) liberated – Siddha – pure
                  > knowing
                  > and seeing energy engrossed in itself.
                  >
                  > When soul goes from one body to another it continues
                  > to be called embodied as ’kamic’ body and
                  > ‘thejas’
                  > body continues until it is completely devoid of all
                  > the karmic dust.
                  >
                  > This is transmigration- 'reincarnation’ and is
                  > called
                  > the cycle of birth and death.
                  >
                  > When it is liberated by its own intrinsic capability
                  > from knowing and seeing of other than self, it
                  > relieves itself from housing in a dead, inert, non
                  > conscious, physical material called body and remains
                  > in its pure nature as soul.
                  >
                  > Attempt is made to present the best that is known
                  > and
                  > it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s
                  > expectation and information and it is earnest and
                  > sincere request to bring out the defects and
                  > insufficiency thereby help understanding better.
                  >
                  > Welcome for any further clarification
                  >
                  > Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
                  >
                  > Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
                  > Samykathva.
                  >
                  > Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
                  >
                  > Yours brotherly,
                  > Sreepalan
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Hemang Ajmera <mailhemangajmera@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Joey
                  > > Jai Jinendra, Jai Gurudev
                  > >
                  > > The definition of soul varies from religion to
                  > > religion and faith to faith.
                  > > As per Jainism, universe consists of six unique
                  > > substances, they are life(soul), matter, space,
                  > > time, dharma(substance which supports movement of
                  > > other substances) and adharma(substance which
                  > helps
                  > > other substance to come to rest)
                  > >
                  > > Now there are different means of knowing things:
                  > > 1. To perceive
                  > > 2. To derive logically
                  > > 3. To experience
                  > >
                  >
                  === message truncated ===




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