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Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara

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  • Pushkar R Bagmar
    Dear Subhashji, Thanks a lot for your responses. Actually I asked these questions because I am experiecing a lot of letting go of my conditioning - there is
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 3, 2006
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      Dear Subhashji,

      Thanks a lot for your responses. Actually I asked these questions
      because I am experiecing a lot of letting go of my conditioning -
      there is a certain amount of openness or freedom that is being
      experienced and in that there is a stillness of mind. But of
      course, this is not continuous but occassional - naturally because
      we are so full of desire that being desireless is not simple for us
      and we can be desireless for a very few moments.

      Actually this has happened in my life after I started reading J
      Krishnamurti - I dont know if you know of him but it is after J
      Krishnamurti that I am actually experiencing a lot of things which
      were only ideas for me hitherto. I was reading a lot of Jain
      philosophy but it always remained at an intellectual level and not
      at the actual being level. After Krishnamurti it is actually
      happening to me and now I am realising what Mahavir must have said.

      All this requires a lot of attention (and not concentration) and
      awareness and that has to be from moment to moment (and not one
      time). As I go deeper into it I only see the deeper layers of my
      conditioning while dropping the seemingly superficial layer of the
      conditioning. I hope I am able to continue on this path.

      Thanks again,
      Pushkar

      --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, subhash-jain@... wrote:
      >
      > Dear Shri Pushkarji:
      >
      > You are right in saying that Moksha is a stage where a person is
      infinitely
      > thoughtless (nirvikalpa). The responses of the past, which I have
      termed as
      > karya phala, are accumulated in karmas. I find the term "sanskara"
      > (accumulated memories and responses of the past) abstract, not
      karma. I can
      > understand the karma doctrine better using the concept of karma
      than sanskara.
      > The aim is to achieve the state of thoughtlessness; if you can
      achieve it by
      > using the concept of sanskara, I do not see anything wrong with it.
      >
      > Subhash Jain
      >
    • Hitesh Mehta
      ... From: sancheti_nidhi To: Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Karma - Samwar
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 4, 2006
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "sancheti_nidhi" <
        sancheti_nidhi@...>
        To: <
        jainlist-owner@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:10 PM
        Subject: Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara


        jai jinendra

        i m a new member of this group. in the discussion on karma i would
        like to submit my views.
        i feel that karma is the actions that we perform in our mind, speech
        or other communications and body. out of all these i feel the karma
        of mind is the most important one. actually our total personality is
        a result of our karma. this is explained by lord mahavir in
        uttradhayan sutra. at various places there is mention of drvya karma
        and bhav karma. i feel drvya karma is our outer conditioning, but
        bhav karma is our mental conditioning, that is why whatever actions
        of body speech and mind a true saint performs make further new karma.
        lord mahavira has said in sutrakratang sutra that we make new karmas
        even in our sleep. i realise how true it is . so this continuous
        inflow of karmic matter is ashrav. and all those activities which
        block this inflow is sanvar. but just by sanwar the karmic matter is
        not dusted off. it needs to be removed from soul (atma pradesh) using
        various practices. this removal is nirjara.

        i hope i have thrown light on the matter in correct manner

        best wishes for all
        nidhi


      • subhash-jain@uiowa.edu
        Jai Jinendra In jainism the word karma has two distinct meanings: one, the action of mind, body, and speech (I prefer to call it deed to avoid confusion with
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 5, 2006
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          Jai Jinendra

          In jainism the word karma has two distinct meanings: one, the action of mind,
          body, and speech (I prefer to call it "deed" to avoid confusion with its other
          meaning); the other, subtle particles of matter, also called as dravya karma,
          which accumulate the knowledge of invisible consequences of deeds. Bhava
          karmas are related to the soul, not to the mind (mind is matter). There exists
          a nimitta-naimittika relation between dravya karmas and bhav karmas.

          Subhash Jain
          Quoting Hitesh Mehta <hitesh@...>:

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "sancheti_nidhi" <sancheti_nidhi@...>
          > To: <jainlist-owner@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:10 PM
          > Subject: Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara
          >
          >
          > jai jinendra
          >
          > i m a new member of this group. in the discussion on karma i would
          > like to submit my views.
          > i feel that karma is the actions that we perform in our mind, speech
          > or other communications and body. out of all these i feel the karma
          > of mind is the most important one. actually our total personality is
          > a result of our karma. this is explained by lord mahavir in
          > uttradhayan sutra. at various places there is mention of drvya karma
          > and bhav karma. i feel drvya karma is our outer conditioning, but
          > bhav karma is our mental conditioning, that is why whatever actions
          > of body speech and mind a true saint performs make further new karma.
          > lord mahavira has said in sutrakratang sutra that we make new karmas
          > even in our sleep. i realise how true it is . so this continuous
          > inflow of karmic matter is ashrav. and all those activities which
          > block this inflow is sanvar. but just by sanwar the karmic matter is
          > not dusted off. it needs to be removed from soul (atma pradesh) using
          > various practices. this removal is nirjara.
          >
          > i hope i have thrown light on the matter in correct manner
          >
          > best wishes for all
          > nidhi
          >
          >
        • sancheti_nidhi
          jai jinendra thanks for such educative information. but i have not understood the word nimitta-naimittika relation , i wish i could get more information on
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 6, 2006
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            jai jinendra

            thanks for such educative information. but i have not understood the
            word nimitta-naimittika relation , i wish i could get more information
            on this. i have the understanding that bhav is the content of mind.
            till date i used to think that drvya karma is the karma latent in the
            soul, and inflow of matter as a result of bhava karma and the bhava
            karma is what comes on the surface of mind mostly in form of emotions
            or thinking or intellect etc. i read in a book that soul cannot
            attract dravya karma unless there is bhav karma. please correct my
            understanding if its wrong. soul by itself cannot do karma, it is its
            energy or chetna that does that .then how bhav is related to it.

            regards
            nidhi sancheti
          • Subhash C. Jain
            Nidhi Sancheti Ji: The word nimitta-naimittika relation is related to the doctrine of cause and effect. There always are one or more causes for each event in
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 12, 2006
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              Nidhi Sancheti Ji:
              The word nimitta-naimittika relation is related to the doctrine of cause and
              effect. There always are one or more causes for each event in this cosmos.
              The causes are classified into two types: (1) Material cause or Substantial
              cause (Upaadaana kaaran) and (2) Instrumental cause or Efficient cause
              (Nimitta kaaran). A cause that occurs in a substance in which the effect
              occurs is called as Upaadaana kaaran, and a cause that occurs in a substance
              in which the effect does not occur is called Nimitta kaaran. Consider the
              following example. A pot is made from a lump of clay with the help of a
              potter, wheel, etc. What are the various causes that made the pot (effect)?
              The pot could not be made without the clay, or the potter, or the wheel
              etc.; hence the clay, the potter, the wheel etc. all are causes for the
              effect (pot) that occurs in the clay. According to the above definitions of
              causes, the clay is the Upaadaana kaaran and the potter and the wheel etc
              are the Nimitta kaaran of the effect "pot". The same effect "pot" is called
              "Upaadeya" in the case of the Upaadaana kaaran and "Naimittika" in the case
              of the Nimitta kaaran. Thus the clay and the pot have Upaadaana Upaadeya
              relation and the potter, wheel, etc and the pot have Nimitta-Naimittika
              relations. Using this concept of cause and effect, please see whether you
              can understand the nimitta-naimittika relation between the bhava karma and
              dravya karma.

              Subhash Jain

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "sancheti_nidhi" <sancheti_nidhi@...>
              To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:40 AM
              Subject: [JainList] Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara


              > jai jinendra
              >
              > thanks for such educative information. but i have not understood the
              > word nimitta-naimittika relation , i wish i could get more information
              > on this. i have the understanding that bhav is the content of mind.
              > till date i used to think that drvya karma is the karma latent in the
              > soul, and inflow of matter as a result of bhava karma and the bhava
              > karma is what comes on the surface of mind mostly in form of emotions
              > or thinking or intellect etc. i read in a book that soul cannot
              > attract dravya karma unless there is bhav karma. please correct my
              > understanding if its wrong. soul by itself cannot do karma, it is its
              > energy or chetna that does that .then how bhav is related to it.
              >
              > regards
              > nidhi sancheti
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Pushkar R Bagmar
              Dear Subhashji, So does it mean that the matter as a cause is is Material cause - matter is there and only the form has changed so at the base of the change
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 13, 2006
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                Dear Subhashji,

                So does it mean that the "matter" as a cause is is Material cause -
                matter is there and only the form has changed so at the base of the
                change is the matter. And the one which changes the form of matter
                from one to another is Efficient cause - is it sort of a catalyst?
                Does Dravya means matter?

                Kind Regards,
                Pushkar

                --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Subhash C. Jain" <subhash-jain@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Nidhi Sancheti Ji:
                > The word nimitta-naimittika relation is related to the doctrine of
                cause and
                > effect. There always are one or more causes for each event in this
                cosmos.
                > The causes are classified into two types: (1) Material cause or
                Substantial
                > cause (Upaadaana kaaran) and (2) Instrumental cause or Efficient cause
                > (Nimitta kaaran). A cause that occurs in a substance in which the effect
                > occurs is called as Upaadaana kaaran, and a cause that occurs in a
                substance
                > in which the effect does not occur is called Nimitta kaaran.
                Consider the
                > following example. A pot is made from a lump of clay with the help of a
                > potter, wheel, etc. What are the various causes that made the pot
                (effect)?
                > The pot could not be made without the clay, or the potter, or the wheel
                > etc.; hence the clay, the potter, the wheel etc. all are causes for the
                > effect (pot) that occurs in the clay. According to the above
                definitions of
                > causes, the clay is the Upaadaana kaaran and the potter and the
                wheel etc
                > are the Nimitta kaaran of the effect "pot". The same effect "pot" is
                called
                > "Upaadeya" in the case of the Upaadaana kaaran and "Naimittika" in
                the case
                > of the Nimitta kaaran. Thus the clay and the pot have Upaadaana Upaadeya
                > relation and the potter, wheel, etc and the pot have Nimitta-Naimittika
                > relations. Using this concept of cause and effect, please see
                whether you
                > can understand the nimitta-naimittika relation between the bhava
                karma and
                > dravya karma.
                >
                > Subhash Jain
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "sancheti_nidhi" <sancheti_nidhi@...>
                > To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:40 AM
                > Subject: [JainList] Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara
                >
                >
                > > jai jinendra
                > >
                > > thanks for such educative information. but i have not understood the
                > > word nimitta-naimittika relation , i wish i could get more information
                > > on this. i have the understanding that bhav is the content of mind.
                > > till date i used to think that drvya karma is the karma latent in the
                > > soul, and inflow of matter as a result of bhava karma and the bhava
                > > karma is what comes on the surface of mind mostly in form of emotions
                > > or thinking or intellect etc. i read in a book that soul cannot
                > > attract dravya karma unless there is bhav karma. please correct my
                > > understanding if its wrong. soul by itself cannot do karma, it is its
                > > energy or chetna that does that .then how bhav is related to it.
                > >
                > > regards
                > > nidhi sancheti
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • sancheti_nidhi
                jai jinendra, thankyou subhash ji for explaining me with such clarity. i find this subject very interesting, if you have any idea of any book on this topic,
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 14, 2006
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                  jai jinendra,

                  thankyou subhash ji for explaining me with such clarity. i find this
                  subject very interesting, if you have any idea of any book on this
                  topic, please let me know.or any other good book on tatva gyan will
                  also do well. i have jain tatva prakash written by amolak rishiji
                  maharaj and philosophy of soul by achraya mahapragna ji.

                  regards
                  nidhi
                • Subhash C. Jain
                  Dear Pushkarji: The term Material cause is used in the scientific community as scientists do not believe in soul. The term Substantial cause is a correct
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 15, 2006
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                    Dear Pushkarji:

                    The term "Material cause" is used in the scientific community as scientists
                    do
                    not believe in soul. The term "Substantial cause" is a correct eqivalent
                    term
                    in english for "Upaadaana kaaran". The efficient cause is like a catalyst as
                    its presence is needed for the chemical reaction but it does not change in
                    the
                    chemical reaction. Though the equivalent term in english for "Dravya"
                    is "substance" (which are six in Jainism), the meaning of dravya in "dravya
                    karma" is matter (pudgala).

                    Subhash Jain

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Pushkar R Bagmar" <pushkar.bagmar@...>
                    To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:47 AM
                    Subject: [JainList] Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara


                    > Dear Subhashji,
                    >
                    > So does it mean that the "matter" as a cause is is Material cause -
                    > matter is there and only the form has changed so at the base of the
                    > change is the matter. And the one which changes the form of matter
                    > from one to another is Efficient cause - is it sort of a catalyst?
                    > Does Dravya means matter?
                    >
                    > Kind Regards,
                    > Pushkar
                    >
                  • Subhash C. Jain
                    Nidhiji: Another good book is Karmavaad by Acharya Mahapragya. Subhash Jain ... From: sancheti_nidhi To:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 15, 2006
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                      Nidhiji:

                      Another good book is "Karmavaad" by Acharya Mahapragya.

                      Subhash Jain

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "sancheti_nidhi" <sancheti_nidhi@...>
                      To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:43 AM
                      Subject: [JainList] Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara


                      > jai jinendra,
                      >
                      > thankyou subhash ji for explaining me with such clarity. i find this
                      > subject very interesting, if you have any idea of any book on this
                      > topic, please let me know.or any other good book on tatva gyan will
                      > also do well. i have jain tatva prakash written by amolak rishiji
                      > maharaj and philosophy of soul by achraya mahapragna ji.
                      >
                      > regards
                      > nidhi
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • jaina
                      You can read Karma by Harman Kunh avilable with Hindi granth Karyalay Arinjay ... From: sancheti_nidhi To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 14,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 17, 2006
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                        You can read Karma by Harman Kunh
                         
                        avilable with Hindi granth Karyalay
                         
                        Arinjay
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:13 PM
                        Subject: [JainList] Re: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara

                        jai jinendra,

                        thankyou subhash ji for explaining me with such clarity. i find this
                        subject very interesting, if you have any idea of any book on this
                        topic, please let me know.or any other good book on tatva gyan will
                        also do well. i have jain tatva prakash written by amolak rishiji
                        maharaj and philosophy of soul by achraya mahapragna ji.

                        regards
                        nidhi


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                      • Sreepalan VC
                        Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Pushkar R Bagmar, Let soul secure Samyakthva Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard. ‘Know thyself and be
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 24, 2006
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                          Samyak Darshan

                          Dear Shri Pushkar R Bagmar,

                          Let soul secure Samyakthva
                          Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou
                          shall be heard.
                          ‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Acharya Shri Kund Kund
                          Dev.

                          Sub: Karma - Samwar and Nirjara
                          Ref: Mon, 22 May 2006 15:39:03 -0000

                          At the outset sorry for the delayed response and it
                          was due to the prolonged ill health and after the
                          recovery when perusing the mails it prompted to reply
                          your valued request.

                          Now the answer:
                          Karma:
                          Karma has few means 01) karya - work, 02) kriya -
                          personified cause for any act 03) that molecular
                          bondage of dead inert material - karm.

                          Here it is, as understood from your mail, related to
                          the third one i.e., bondage, is that right?

                          Again this karma is of 3 types viz., bhaava karma -
                          feelings of the soul, dhravaya karma - dead inert
                          material which follows the bhava karma - and no karma
                          - the body building dead inert material.

                          Further more, the dhravya karma and no karma are no
                          doubt dead inert material but there is cognizable
                          difference between the two. The former is subtle and
                          invisible to the human eyes, and are classified into 8
                          major with infinite shades of it.
                          No karma is also subtle dead inert matter but with
                          touch, taste, color and smell as special qualities
                          besides infinite special and ordinary qualities. It is
                          one of the branches of Nama karma.

                          Samvar:
                          It is meant as the stoppage of the fresh inflow -
                          ashrava - of both bhaava and dhravya karma. This is of
                          two kinds viz., bhaava samvar and dhravya samvar. It
                          is by the determined effort of the soul and not
                          otherwise.

                          Nirjara:
                          It is meant as the shedding of previously bound karmic
                          molecules from the karmana sarira - karmic body which
                          is one of 5 bodies that engulfs soul. This is of two
                          varieties viz, bhaava nirjara and dhravya nirjara.
                          This again is of two kinds viz., vipaak nirjara - that
                          shedding of karmic molecules which happens naturally
                          after fractioning (after the duration and intensity is
                          over) and avipaaka nirjara - that shedding of karmic
                          molecules which happens by the effort of the soul
                          before its duration and intensity.

                          It may be taken for granted that in very few repeat
                          very few souls only this stoppage - samvar -and
                          activated shedding - avipaaka nirjara - of bhaava and
                          dhrava karma molecules take place. This is so because
                          the knowledge of the same is limited besides belief on
                          it is much less. This is purely due to the ignorance
                          of the soul about itself but knowledge gynaan - and
                          belief - darshan are indelible and indestructible
                          qualities of soul. It is now found placed from
                          beginning less time in wrong place. Thus the cycle of
                          birth and death continues.

                          This is the very brief explanation.

                          Attempt is made to present the best that is known and
                          it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s
                          expectation and information and it is earnest and
                          sincere request to bring out the defects and
                          insufficiency thereby help understanding better.

                          Welcome for any further clarification

                          Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                          Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
                          Samykathva.

                          Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

                          Yours brotherly,
                          Sreepalan




                          --- Pushkar R Bagmar <pushkar.bagmar@...> wrote:

                          > Jai Jinendra,
                          >
                          > Can anyone on the list throw more light on Karma -
                          > not the effects of
                          > Karma but what Karma actually is and how do we know
                          > if we are
                          > committing fresh Karma or not.
                          >
                          > Related to Karma I would also like to know what
                          > exactly is Nirjara and
                          > Samwar and how do they happen?
                          >
                          > I have serious questions on this matter but would
                          > like to wait for the
                          > replies of the esteemed members of this group so
                          > that I can word the
                          > questions accordingly.
                          >
                          > I look forward to serious contributions from you
                          > all.
                          >
                          > Shubham Bhavatu!
                          > Pushkar
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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