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Re: [JainList] Jainism

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  • Pritish Shah
    Luiz, That is a wonderful question. It leads to a lot of answers also. We have been schooled in modern days to believe that any fact needs to have proof and
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 31, 2005
      Luiz,
       
      That is a wonderful question. It leads to a lot of answers also.
       
      We have been schooled in modern days to believe that any "fact" needs to have proof and that without proof, that fact is not true. It is just that sometimes we have not figured out how to prove the fact but that does not mean that the fact does not exist. Take the black hole as an instance. There is no direct proof that it exists but still we have other circumstancial evidence that the black hole does exist.
       
      Why am I bringing that up?
       
      Fact: Bhagwan Mahavir was "Supremely Enlightened" or omniscient.
      Proof: Even without having any kind of device, he was able to tell that there are "vayukayas" and that the universe is extremely huge, that molecules are formed by atoms and the atoms are formed by other smaller things.
      Question: If he was not omniscient, then how did he know. Thus he must have been omniscient.
       
      We can never have direct evidence that Bhagwan Mahavir was omniscient but we definately have circumstancial evidence that he was absolutely enlightened -- how else would he know about things that any normal human would not know anything about.
       
      Regarding Vayukayas, I would classify them as airborne germs. There are also waterborne germs, fireborne germs, earthborne germs and most of the plants.
       
      Airborne germs can definately enter your mouth as you open and close your mouth or breath from it.
       
      Hope it helps,
      Pritish
       
       

      Dear Gentlemen

      I admire and respect Jainism a lot. I am Luiz I have some doubts:

      1) How did Lord Mahaver discovered the existence of vayukayas?If we don�t get to
      see the vayukayas.

      2)Can vayukayas enter into the mouth?

      sincerely

      luiz
      ___________________________________________________________________________________
      Para os pa�ses que voc� mais liga, a Embratel � sempre a sua melhor op��o.
      Ligue 00 + 21 + c�digo do pa�s + n�mero do telefone

      www.embratel.com.br






      JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.


    • luizmtr@click21.com.br
      Dear Mr. Pritish Shah Thank you very much for your excellent explanation. Excuse me but my englis is poor, please see if meu think is correct: when a person
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2005
        Dear Mr. Pritish Shah

        Thank you very much for your excellent explanation. Excuse me but my englis is
        poor, please see if meu think is correct:

        when a person speaks,this person doesn´t speak direct (non-stop),this person
        speaks,stop and so continue to speak,when this person stop( close the mouth)and
        next to speak(open the mouth),so in this intervale i.e. when the mouth close and
        after open, can does the mouth inspires the air ? so , can vayukaya enter into
        the mouth?

        I admire and respect the life monastic Sthanakwasi?Do you know any Monk
        Sthanakwasi?

        Sincerely

        luiz
        ___________________________________________________________________________________
        Nas ligações internacionais, do fixo ou do celular, a Embratel é sempre
        a sua melhor opção

        www.embratel.com.br
      • Your Friends for Ever
        Dear Jain Friends,and Revered Shri .Sreepalanji, I Have been intrestingly following the group and the various questions and the Replies, Thanks for giving so
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 4, 2005
          Dear Jain Friends,and Revered Shri .Sreepalanji,
          I Have been intrestingly following the group and the various questions and
          the Replies,
          Thanks for giving so much of understanding to the subject,
          now my question is
          1) Thirthnkar parmatmas reached Kevlgyan and so they knew past,present and
          future,
          so when Thithankar parmatmas could see past and present is understood but
          when we say they saw future so it is to be understood that future was
          allready destined to happen and future cannot be changed by any means and so
          it is Truth that future is fixed and destined to happen as also been told
          that Mahaveer bhagwan will be the 24th Thirthnkar was told by Bhagwan
          Adheshwar in the Marichis bhava which was 000's of years Latter to take
          place in the 3rd/4th Ara.
          so my destiny is fixed and where my Atma has come was fixed and where it
          will go is also fixed and can it be changed by any means or it is destiny we
          have to Live with.
          I am enjoying the Karmas of so many last Births good and bad so when I am
          not Knowing which karma I am Living with how can I change the Destiny.
          I am with some situation which is not my creation and I am just there
          because of destiny and then I am involved by my presence and also acumulate
          the karmas,
          what shoul be the Atmas duty when involved in a Bad environment,I am sure
          not liking to be there but when destined to be there what should my Atma do
          not to be involved Physically,Mentally or by Act.
          when just the sight of Thirthnakars could get Moksha for many lives what
          wrong could our Atmas have done,
          why do we not have gurus like Gautam swami who's shishyas could get Kevlgyan
          before he himself got detached with Bhagwan mahavir,where latter knew that
          Gautam budh is also destined for the Moksha but has to wait till he finishes
          his Karmas,so destiny was fixed even for these great Atmas.
          Chandanbala was witness to Bhagwan Mahavirs Tap and Bhagwan had fixed so
          many things for accepting Bhiksha and had to follow 5 months and 25 days of
          fastings until circumstances charged Chandanbala to sit in the middle of the
          room with Head shaven and also to be a Princess etc and offer with tears in
          her eyes.....with which Bhagwan Mahaveer Finished his Fastings.
          where will we go from here,when and how will each Atma find Eternal Peace,
          World out side seems to be Enjoying the Karmas but then what is stored for
          our Atmas
          Please explain the Best and shortest way to the logic of fixed Karmas and
          destiny towards Moksha is fixed or can be shortned.
          Thanks
        • Sreepalan VC
          Samyak Darshan Dear ShriYour Friends for Ever, Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be given. Sub: [JainList]
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 6, 2005
            Samyak Darshan

            Dear ShriYour Friends for Ever,

            Let soul secure Samyakthva.
            Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
            be given.

            Sub: [JainList] Jainism
            Ref: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:05:28 +0530

            Thanks a lot for perusing submissions and evincing
            deep interest and it shows your liking for your self.

            Let us attempt ot analyse your statements:

            Quote:
            Thirthnkar parmatmas reached Kevlgyan and so they knew
            past,present and
            future,

            Analysis:
            Thirthankar only knows and not any mundane soul just
            like you and me is that sensed. Further more He does
            not meddle with or effect or design or any changes in
            any thing that is seen or known to Him, is that clear?

            Quote:
            so it is to be understood that future was allready
            destined to happen and future cannot be changed by any
            means

            Analysis:
            It is certain that as seen or known in the knowledge
            screen of Thirthankar would only happen and not
            otherwise. Mundane or embodied souls do not know any
            thing of what is in store to them.

            Quote:
            so my destiny is fixed and where my Atma has come was
            fixed and where it will go is also fixed and can it be
            changed by any means or it is destiny we have to Live
            with

            Analysis:
            Your destiny is fixed according to what is seen in the
            knowledge of Thirthankar and you fixed and will be
            fixing it by your own bad, good and pure thought
            activities and not His. Whatever changes you wish to
            make and you will be making and all that would have
            been well ahead seen or known to Him, agreed?

            Quote:
            I am with some situation which is not my creation and
            I am just there
            because of destiny and then I am involved by my
            presence and also accumulate the karmas,

            Analysis:
            You have yourself made a statement that your situation
            is your creation what does that mean? Is it not that
            the very nature of your discriminatory knowledge led
            you to confess that.

            Physical involvement is not in your hand but psychical
            involvement is very much your making and those only
            results in accumulation of karmic particles

            Quodte:
            what shoul be the Atmas duty when involved in a Bad
            environment,I am sure ot liking to be there but when
            destined to be there what should my Atma do ot to be
            involved Physically,Mentally or by Act.

            Analysis:
            There is no bad or good environment from the nishcaya
            point of view but it is so from vyavahaaric point of
            view. Such situations or conditions are perishable and
            vanish momentarily. But soul remains unchanging, as
            mirror never undergoes any change although it reflects
            infinite images with all their changes.

            Similarly, conscious soul to remain undisturbed to
            whatever information is seen or known in one’s
            knowledge screen be it good or bad. So soul by its
            purushaarth – effort – has to desist from not to
            identify itself with what ever is seen or known in
            knowledge screen but remain as knower and seer.

            Thus the unnatural vibrations are kept at bay – bhaava
            samvara and hence there is no instrumental cause for
            fresh inflow of karmic particles - dhravya samvara.
            Since the soul manifests natural vibration due to
            knowledge and faith on its own self, the purity that
            develops in soul denies room and drives away the
            unnatural vibrations – bhaava nirjara. Consequently,
            there is no nimitta - instrumental cause for holding
            the existing karmic particles and it sprouts and sheds
            - dhravya nirjara without becoming instrumental cause
            for fresh unnatural vibration.

            Vibrations may be called as parinaama.

            Quote:
            when just the sight of Thirthnakars could get Moksha
            for many lives
            what wrong could our Atmas have done, why do we not
            have gurus like Gautam swami who's shishyas could get
            Kevlgyan before he himself got detached with Bhagwan
            mahavir,where latter knew that Gautam budh is also
            destined for the Moksha but has to wait till he
            finishes his Karmas,so destiny was fixed even for
            these great Atmas.

            Analysis:
            Sight of Thirthankar could get moksha is vyavahaaric
            and incidental to the actual happening and the soul
            that secured moksha had by sheer dint of its sole
            effort only. When one soul’s moksha is manifested by
            it is due to the soul’s upaadhna karana – substantial
            cause. Thirthankar’s presence was there and is only
            nimitta – an instrumental cause.

            If that was a fact of life or true then all those
            souls in the Samavasaran should have secured at the
            very sight of live Omniscient Thrithankar. But it did
            not happen.

            Gautham Gandhar – prime disciple can attain moksha
            only after His Thirthankar attains moksha. But many
            aspirant souls attain Keval Gynaan from the
            Samovasaran as Saamaanya Kevalis - ordinary
            omniscient. All these attain Keval Gynaan not because
            of the presence of Thirthankar but because of such
            souls’ own effort and such sacred presence is only
            instrumental cause.

            Besides, you will be interested to know that Goutam
            Gandhar was Indra Boodthi a spiritual belligerent and
            arrogant vedhic Brahmin by caste and headed 500
            disciples, just few minutes before he went to the
            Samavasaran of Baghavaan Mahavir. It is said that the
            very sight of Samavasaran drove away all his wrong
            beliefs and took Jina diksha at the glorious sight of
            Thirthankar but it is from vyavahaaric point of view.
            Whereas, it is all soul’s own effort and strength
            which is from nischaya point of view and the rest are
            all instrumental causes -nimitta or vyavahaar.

            Siddhas are dejurie and defacto owners of their
            qualities by knowledge, faith and conduct whereas we,
            mundane souls, are dejurie owners only but yet
            struggling to become defacto owners.

            The fact that a shorter reply is sought for clears the
            wood that patience is less than required and please
            know that shortest is not the best but best is the
            shortest.

            Looking at the unfathomable past that our souls have
            treaded and reached the rare fully-grown human bodied
            birth and in vitraag Jain tradition, few moments more
            in spending our time for knowing our self is a drop in
            the ocean. And even that we deny to ourselves. And so,
            it clearly shows how badly we treat ourselves.

            Attempt is made to place the information and
            understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
            man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
            help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

            Please forgive and forget for any personal excesses
            that hurt and it is only fraternal affinity that
            goaded to place.

            Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

            Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
            revelation of Kevalin.

            Now for the participants,

            Yours brotherly,
            sreepalan

            --- Your Friends for Ever <whitstar@...>
            wrote:

            > Dear Jain Friends,and Revered Shri .Sreepalanji,
            > I Have been intrestingly following the group and the
            > various questions and
            > the Replies,
            > Thanks for giving so much of understanding to the
            >
          • Sudhir M. Shah
            Here is an article I had published 5 years ago addressing similar issue. In my opinion, the dynamic model of Kevel-gyan leaves room for prursharth . The
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 7, 2005
              Here is an article I had published 5 years ago addressing similar issue. In my opinion, the dynamic model of Kevel-gyan leaves room for "prursharth". The static model does not. You choose the model you want to accept. 
               
              Is Kevel-gyan Static or Dynamic? 

              In Jain Philosophy, the concept of ‘Kevel-gyan’ (a state of omniscience) is an important one. It is the precursor to ‘Moksha’ (freeing of the soul from the cycle of birth and death). When a person eliminates all its ‘Ghati’ (destructive) karma, and all but one ‘Aghati’ (non destructive) karma, the ‘Ayushya’ (age determining) karma, his/her soul is purified. This brings about the true qualities of the soul, namely, infinite knowledge, infinite perception, infinite energy and bliss. This all knowing and perceiving state is called Kevel-gyan (omniscience) When ‘Ayushya karma, is eliminated (spent), the body dies and the soul reaches ‘Moksha’ (salvation). The ultimate goal of a Jain is to reach this stage.

              During my study of Jain philosophy, I have come across literature by several Jain scholars and thinkers, who have addressed many different concepts related to Jain conduct. Some of them seem to be giving conflicting views. The concept of ‘A-karta-vad’, appears to assume the static model of ‘Kevel-gyan’. Explaining that all our thoughts, actions as well as their consequences are not in our control, they are pre-determined, based on our ‘Karma’ in previous lives. To think that one can change anything is only an illusion. ‘A-karta-vad’ suggests that every thing we do, good or bad, is direct result of fruition of our past ‘Karma’ (Karma no uday). In other words, our past karma makes us do things. We are only the ‘agents’ of our karma and not the real doer! The believers of ‘A-karta-vad’ explain by using ‘Kevel-gyan’ as an example. They argue that ‘Kevel-gyan’ gives the bearer, an absolute knowledge of every one’s past, present and future. Thus, if the future is all known, they conclude, it has to be constant and cannot be changed by anyone! Arguing that if you believe in ‘Kevel-gyan’, you must believe in ‘A-karta-vad’

              If you assume this static model of ‘Kevel-gyan’, it absolves you of any action or inaction. A murderer cannot be held responsible for his action, since all actions and outcomes are predetermined. Any ‘Purusharth’ (efforts) that is not pre-determined (!!!), would have no meaning. There would be no point in ‘doing’ any thing anyway. The world would be a dreadful place. There would be no difference between humans and animals.

              Here is a question for believers of ‘A-karta-vad’. If an individual has no control over his/her actions, where did their karma come from in the first place? Were they predetermined too? If they are not the real doers, who is responsible for their karma? And how does one eliminate these karmas. Under this scenario, no one can possibly attain ‘Kevel-gyan’. In my opinion, the concept of ‘A-karta-vad’ is the biggest excuse for our inaction.

              Now, let us examine the dynamic model of ‘kevel-gyan’. Under this model, knowing and perceiving is continuous and not fixed. Hence, the future does not have to be fixed and it is subject to change based on accumulating or shedding of karma by each individual through thought, speech and action. Here, although every individual is subject to his/her past karma, he/she can modify its outcome, as well as influence the future outcomes, based on their new karma which are completely under their own control. This does not allow anyone to shirk their responsibility, since each soul is fully responsible for its past, present and future. No matter how bad a past karma you may be born with, you always have a hope of influencing your present and future based on your new karma. Thus, this dynamic model has the ability to empower every soul, unlike the static model that discourages us from taking any initiative.

              If we assume this dynamic model of ‘Kevel-gyan’, then the concept of ‘A-karta-vad’ dwindles away immediately.

              Also if everyone’s future is predetermined and beyond their own control, why would Mahavirswami give us sermons after his ‘Kevel-gyan’ or establish a religious order? What is suppose to happen will happen regardless of any guidance from any one including a keveli!!!

              I would like to know your views on this subject.

              Submitted respectfully

              Sudhir M. Shah

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Your Friends for Ever" <whitstar@...>
              Cc: "Jains- Shri Sreepalan VC" <sreepal5058@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:35 AM
              Subject: [JainList] Jainism

              > Dear Jain Friends,and Revered Shri .Sreepalanji,
              > I Have been
              intrestingly following the group and the various questions and
              > the
              Replies,
              > Thanks for giving so much of understanding to the
              subject,
              > now my question is
              > 1) Thirthnkar parmatmas reached
              Kevlgyan and so they knew past,present and
              > future,
              > so when
              Thithankar parmatmas could see past and present is understood but
              > when
              we say they saw future so it is to be understood that future was
              >
              allready destined to happen and future cannot be changed by any means and so
              > it is Truth that future is fixed and destined to happen as also been
              told
              > that Mahaveer bhagwan will be the 24th Thirthnkar was told by
              Bhagwan
              > Adheshwar in the Marichis bhava which was 000's of years Latter
              to take
              > place in the 3rd/4th Ara.
              > so my destiny is fixed and
              where my Atma has come was fixed and where it
              > will go is also fixed and
              can it be changed by any means or it is destiny we
              > have to Live
              with.
              > I am enjoying the Karmas of so many last Births good and bad so
              when I am
              > not Knowing which karma I am Living with how can I change the
              Destiny.
              > I am with some situation which is not my creation and I am just
              there
              > because of destiny and then I am involved by my presence and also
              acumulate
              > the karmas,
              > what shoul be the Atmas duty when involved
              in a Bad environment,I am sure
              > not liking to be there but when destined
              to be there what should my Atma do
              > not to be involved
              Physically,Mentally or by Act.
              > when just the sight of Thirthnakars could
              get Moksha for many lives what
              > wrong could our Atmas have done,
              >
              why do we not have gurus like Gautam swami who's shishyas could get Kevlgyan
              > before he himself got detached with Bhagwan mahavir,where
              latter knew that
              > Gautam budh is also destined for the Moksha but has to
              wait till he finishes
              > his Karmas,so destiny was fixed even for these
              great Atmas.
              > Chandanbala was witness to Bhagwan Mahavirs Tap and Bhagwan
              had fixed so
              > many things for accepting Bhiksha and had to follow 5
              months and 25 days of
              > fastings until circumstances charged Chandanbala
              to sit in the middle of the
              > room with Head shaven and also to be a
              Princess etc and offer with tears in
              > her eyes.....with which Bhagwan
              Mahaveer Finished his Fastings.
              > where will we go from here,when and how
              will each Atma find Eternal Peace,
              > World out side seems to be Enjoying
              the Karmas but then what is stored for
              > our Atmas
              > Please explain
              the Best and shortest way to the logic of fixed Karmas and
              > destiny
              towards Moksha is fixed or can be shortned.
              > Thanks
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > JainNet
              size=2>http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > <*> To
              visit your group on the web, go to:
              >   
              href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jainlist/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jainlist/
              >
              > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              to:
              >   
              href="mailto:jainlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com">jainlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            • Sreepalan VC
              Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Sudhir M. Shah. Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be given. Sub: Re: [JainList]
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 8, 2005
                Samyak Darshan

                Dear Shri Sudhir M. Shah.

                Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                be given.

                Sub: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                Ref: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:09:05 –0400

                Quite a thought provoking but inclined to submit that
                the submission is short of understanding of the
                ‘akartha vaad’ vis-a-vis Keval Gynaan.

                Before jumping into conclusion, let us attempt to
                understand the Keval Gynaan and akarta vaad.

                Keval Gynaan:
                Soul is the prime substance of the 6 kinds of
                substances that constitutes this universe. Of the
                infinite qualities of soul gynaan – knowledge quality
                is the prime quality.

                Why and how?

                In the absence of this magnificent quality, the whole
                world and its components would have no relevance to
                themselves and much less to one another. Knowledge
                quality alone has the capacity to know and see. You
                will not but agree that absence or negation of such
                quality is negation of the universe itself, as there
                will be none to know any thing, is it not?

                What is the capability or strength or purusharth –
                effort of gynaan gunn?

                The capability or effort of soul is only to know and
                see – gynaatha and dhrishta - and nothing beyond. Its
                knowing and seeing capability cannot come out of soul
                and do anything in the physical world, any doubt?

                So, soul is gynaan and gynaan is soul, is that
                agreeable?

                Now Keval Gynann is the pure expression – suddha
                paryaaya - of knowledge quality of soul and it is
                called Keval Gynaan. The life of this expression -
                paryaaya, as you all know, is only one samaya, the
                smallest indivisible unit of time substance. This is
                ceaselessly expressing from the deified soul – Keavl
                Gynaani from the moment purity of soul is fully
                manifested but continues to remain in parama
                audhariaka sarira – pure pristine physical body. At no
                point of time this pure expression – suddha paryaaya –
                of Keval gynaani absents or stops itself but shall be
                flowing forever and forever, is that agreed.

                Secondly, the soul has 3 parts and they are 01) atma -
                soul as a unit 02) ananth gunn - its infinite
                qualities and 03) paryaayas – their ceaseless
                expressions/modifications.

                Soul and its infinite qualities are unchanging and
                remain as it is and pure forever whereas its
                expressions - paryaayas are ceaselessly and freshly
                flowing or in other words changing. This is the
                structural nature of soul substance – Anekant (two
                opposing principles viz., permanent and impermanent,
                remaining ever with the substance only to protect the
                substance).

                From the dhravya – substance and gunna - qualities
                point of view it is static and from the paryaaya point
                of view it is dynamic, is that clear.

                Now we shall attempt to understand ‘Akarta Vaad’

                On akarta vaad - non-doer, we are very fortunate that
                Acharya Shri Kund Kund Dev placed this doctrine
                immediately after the Jiva ajiva – soul and non soul
                (Pudgal) chapter one and the kartha karm adhikar in
                chapter two with one and only object of establishing
                that soul is a non doer form nischaya point of view
                and doer form vyavahaaric point of view.

                This doctrine of non-doer is from basic principle of
                Jina Dharma ‘vathu sahoovo dhammo’ – meaning the
                nature of substance is Dharma.

                Substances being independent, uncreated and
                self-subsisting, no one substance can interfere or
                meddle with another substance is that agreeable.

                Soul being a substance full and complete is functional
                as we have seen herein above and is all pervading in
                the universe with out an exception of space of a
                pinpoint. Karmic particle is again an inert matter and
                is also all pervading the universe - “tussa tuss
                burrah hua hai”,

                Vibhaav parinaam – unnatural expression or thinking
                /feeling /understanding viz., liking and disliking
                etc., other than soul, causes in souls clumsy
                vibration and such clumsy vibration provides
                accommodation to the karmic particles which are in
                proximity. Here the unnatural thinking is an
                independent function of soul and the flowing of karmic
                particle is again another independent function of
                karmic particles. The relationship is established due
                to the nimitta nymittiga sambanda – psychophysical
                relationship and not due to karana karya sambanda –
                cause and effect relationship.

                Nimitta nymittiga sambanda will take place in two
                substances and karana Karya sambanda will take place
                in one and one substance alone. This is nature of
                substance and Jina Dharma.

                For example a beautiful girl is walking ahead of a boy
                and the boy is attracted towards the girl’s beauty and
                allows his imagination to gallop but the girl ahead of
                him knows nothing. There is no physical action and not
                even a touch of her sari or hair of the girl by the
                boy. The intense passionate thinking of the boy is the
                clumsy vibration in his soul - bhaava asrava - the
                instrumental cause – nimitta kaarana - for the karmic
                particles around to flood – dhravya asrava - into
                boy’s soul.

                Really speaking the flowing in of intense passions is
                the substantial cause - upadhana kaarana - an
                independent action in respect of the boy and similarly
                the flowing in of karma particles into the karman
                sarira – karmic body of the boy’s soul is the
                substantial cause - upadhan kaarana - of karmic
                particles. This is nimitta nymittiga sambanda.

                Potter makes pot out of mud. What has become pot? Only
                mud has become pot and all the qualities of mud is
                very much present in the pot. So cause was mud and the
                effect is pot, is that right. This is nischay point of
                view or dhravyaarthika naya.

                But when we question who made the pot, the reply is
                potter, is that correct. But, every one knows that
                none of the qualities of potter is present in the pot.
                Nonetheless such a reply comes normally, is it not?
                Can the pot be made without the substantial cause mud?
                No. Potter gets his name as potter only when he does
                pots or otherwise not, is that right? Similarly water,
                wheel, wooden rod, axis etc., have also done their
                part of activity and how then only potter alone given
                the credit. This is vyavahaaric point of view or
                paryaayarthic naya or from one point of view. This is
                partial truth and not the whole truth and it is called
                Syadvaad.

                With the above-mentioned explanation, if acceptable,
                let us now examine the statements from your
                submission:

                Quote:
                In my opinion, the dynamic model of Kevel-gyan leaves
                room for "prursharth". The static model does not. You
                choose the model you want to accept.

                Analysis:
                The contention of static and dynamic, it is inclined
                to be called, as infructious or non-existent in the
                light of above discussion. Independent you are, and
                have right to rebut.

                Quote:
                When a person eliminates all its ‘Ghati’ (destructive)
                karma, and all but one ‘Aghati’ (non destructive)
                karma, the ‘Ayushya’ (age determining) karma, his/her
                soul is purified.

                Analysis:
                Elimination of ghati karma by one is vyavahaaric view
                and ghati karma leaves karmana sarira of one by itself
                when the clumsy vibration is halted by the effort of
                one and as the purity of the soul improves the gynaan
                gunn manifests its fullness and it is the dawn of
                Keval Gynaan. This is nischaya view.

                Quote:
                The concept of ‘A-karta-vad’, appears to assume the
                static model of ‘Kevel-gyan’

                Analysis:
                There is no substance in the universe, which is static
                alone where as all the 6 kinds of substances are both
                dynamic and static.

                Quote:
                The concept of ‘A-karta-vad’, appears to assume the
                static model of ‘Kevel-gyan’.
                . ‘A-karta-vad’ suggests that every thing we do, good
                or bad, is direct result of fruition of our past
                ‘Karma’ (Karma no uday).

                Analysis:
                It may be observed that the two statements run
                contradicting each other, agreed. Besides, doing good
                or bad from nischaya point of view, is only in one
                substance that is soul. Both good and bad thinking are
                causes for clumsy vibration – vibhaava paryaaya and
                becomes cause for bhaava asrava and instrumental cause
                for inflow of dhravya asrva. So pure thinking –
                directing one’s upayog – knowing and seeing in one
                self alone is the act of pure thinking of soul – ie.,
                bhaava samvara and thus no inflow of karmic particles
                – dhravya samvara.

                Quote:
                They argue that ‘Kevel-gyan’ gives the bearer, an
                absolute knowledge of every one’s past, present and
                future. Thus, if the future is all known, they
                conclude, it has to be constant and cannot be changed
                by anyone! Arguing that if you believe in
                ‘Kevel-gyan’, you must believe in ‘A-karta-vad’

                Analysis:
                From the above explained facts it should be clear that
                soul’s purusharth is only to know and see and not to
                identify with what ever seen and known in one’s
                knowledge screen. If that is observed then there is no
                clumsy vibration and no inflow of karmic particles.
                Secnondly, Thirthankar only knows every thing and not
                any mundane soul just like you and me, is that sensed.
                Further more He does not meddle with or effect or
                design or any changes in any thing that is seen or
                known to Him, is that clear?

                It is certain that as seen or known in the knowledge
                screen of Thirthankar would only happen and not
                otherwise. Mundane or embodied souls do not know any
                thing of what is in store to them.

                Your destiny is fixed according to what is seen in the
                knowledge of Thirthankar and you had fixed and will be
                fixing it by your own bad, good and pure thought
                activities and not Him. Whatever changes you wish to
                make and you will be making and all that would have
                been well ahead seen or known to Him, agreed?

                Quote:
                We are only the ‘agents’ of our karma and not the real
                doer!

                Analysis:
                This is vyavahaaric and not real, agreeing or not is
                your choice.

                Quote:
                A murderer cannot be held responsible for his action,
                since all actions and outcomes are predetermined.

                Analysis:
                Whether murder is committed or not commission of
                bhaava karma has been completed even while the thought
                of murder flashed in one. The commission of murder
                depends on the punnya of murderer and the paapa of one
                to be murdered.

                Quote:
                In my opinion, the concept of ‘A-karta-vad’ is the
                biggest excuse for our inaction.

                Analysis:
                Choice is yours now.

                Quote:
                the future does not have to be fixed and it is subject
                to change based on accumulating or shedding of karma
                by each individual through thought, speech and action.

                Analysis:
                The question of fixed expressions is to only Kevalin
                and not to mundane souls and mundane soul is very free
                to act in the sense be in pure thought activity and
                attain moksha and allowing yourself to succumb to the
                wrong faith that every expression of yours is fixed
                and at the same time go on in bad and good thought
                activities; you are sinned against sinning.

                There is no bad or good environment from the nishcaya
                point of view but it is so from vyavahaaric point of
                view. Such situations or conditions are perishable and
                vanish momentarily. But soul remains unchanging, as
                mirror never undergoes any change although it reflects
                infinite images with all their changes.

                Similarly, conscious soul has to remain undisturbed to
                whatever information is seen or known in one’s
                knowledge screen, be it good or bad. So soul by its
                purushaarth – effort – has to desist from not to
                identify it with what ever is seen or known in
                knowledge screen but remain as knower and seer.

                Vibrations may be called as parinaama.

                Akarta vaad in short is putting effort to remain in
                saamya bhaava – equanimity to all that is seen and
                known and not allowing you roaming around with all
                unnatural thought activity connected with what is seen
                and known in your knowledge.

                You are doer or author of karmic inflow, if only you
                believe that you can cause inflow of karma and stop or
                annihilate karma and this in branded as grahitha
                mithyaathva. On the other hand if you believe that as
                soul, a conscious substance and only a knower and seer
                – gynaayak –, karmic particles will shed themselves as
                there is no adhesiveness viz., liking and disliking to
                stick on in karmic sarira, engulfing soul. You then
                manifest all your qualities in full and Keval Gynaan
                dawns.

                This is Jina Dharma.

                To accept you as gynaayak and conduct as gynaayak is
                your choice.

                Attempt is made to place the information and
                understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                Please forgive and forget for any personal excesses
                that hurt and it is only fraternal affinity that
                goaded to place.

                Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
                revelation of Kevalin.

                Now for the participants,

                Yours brotherly,
                sreepalan
              • jyoti kothari
                Dear Sudheerji, I am almost agree with u.Though the concept is difficult to digest for orthodox. I am searching for this question for many years but till date
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 8, 2005
                  Dear Sudheerji,
                  I am almost agree with u.Though the concept is
                  difficult to digest for orthodox.
                  I am searching for this question for many years but
                  till date no final sollution.
                  To the best,
                  As four dimensional Einstienian physics can not
                  befitted in the classical model/ framework of
                  newtonian physics; keval-jnyana can not be known by
                  Shruta jnyana.Any thing we guess will either misfit/
                  inadequate/ incomplete.
                  Syadvada suggests o accept both the models, static/
                  dynamic in due context.
                  Discussions/ contribution from the scholars awaited.
                  Tatwam tu Kevali gamyam.
                  thanx,
                  Jyoti

                  --- "Sudhir M. Shah" <sudhir@...> wrote:

                  > Here is an article I had published 5 years ago
                  > addressing similar issue. In my opinion, the dynamic
                  > model of Kevel-gyan leaves room for "prursharth".
                  > The static model does not. You choose the model you
                  > want to accept.
                  >
                  > Is Kevel-gyan Static or Dynamic?
                  >
                • Your Friends for Ever
                  Goutam Gandhar was Indra Boodthi a spiritual belligerent and arrogant vedhic Brahmin by caste and headed 500 disciples, Dear sir, Indrabhuti had 12 Brothers
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 9, 2005
                    Goutam Gandhar was Indra Boodthi a spiritual belligerent and arrogant vedhic Brahmin by caste and headed 500
                    disciples,
                    Dear sir,
                    Indrabhuti had 12 Brothers and all inteligent in Vedas and each had a doubt but was not ready to ask the doubt to his own brother and when Mahaveer bhagwan went to Indra Bhooti he called him by his name and so Indrabhooti was surprised but also had pride that this person also knowns my name but when mahaveer Bhagwan Told him about his doubt in his Mind about Jiva,he was stumbed and when he got the reply he with all his followers accepted Diksha at the Hands of Bhagwan.
                    now,
                    Bhagwan mahaveer went to Indrabhooti,and solved his doubt and made him his gandhar,why.
                    Bhagwan mahaveer went to Chandakoshik naga and preached to the serpant,why.
                    when in Samavasaran Bhagwan was giving Vakhyan why did all the beings there not get kevlgyan and Nirvan,and even Gautam Budh did not get the kevlgyan in samavasaran.why.
                    Bhagwan Mahaveers first preaching went waste as all there were Dev and devis and could not take diksha??why
                    Does jainism believe in astrology and nava grahas,then IS the Theory of navagrahas controling our Atma correct?
                    sorry for asking short replies,I accept that Time has made us slaves and knowledge vast.
                    Thanks
                  • mehul_turakhia
                    Dear friends, JJ . Here are some additional thoughts on Keval gyan, from swetambar literature. This topic is discussed couple of times earlier. Agams accept
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 9, 2005
                      Dear friends,
                      JJ .
                      Here are some additional thoughts on Keval gyan, from
                      swetambar literature.
                      This topic is discussed couple of times earlier.

                      Agams accept Niyati , pre determined form of existence. If we
                      see Suyagdang ang agam, it is found that " the person who does not
                      know Niyati and Aniyati is not Budhhiman. "
                      However it is also found that purusharth is given lot of importance
                      at numerous places in agams.

                      In Bhagawati the different bhav (lives) of Goshalak are mentioned,
                      lakhs of bhav in future in sequential manner. In vipak ang agam
                      similar descriptions are found for Mriga lodha prince, lakhs of bhava
                      in sequence are narrated. And there are many other instances. Thus It
                      is perceived that since kevali sees in keval gyan, destiny is
                      predetermined. But the nature of kevali is to see ( darshan – not
                      with eyes as normal jiva with chaksu indriya )and know . The nature
                      of individual jiva is to follow its own future based on five
                      samavaya . Keval gyan is like a mirror lying on the cross roads, it
                      reflects whatever passes along the road, (whatever events occur /
                      happens) . The additional feature is that, it also reflects what has
                      happened and will happen in future. It is like a mirror reflecting
                      dravya, kshetra, kaal, bhaav and guna – all five dimensions ( length,
                      breadth, depth are already covered under dravya ) which are
                      constituents of multi faceted reality.

                      There is mention of 5 samavaya under different contexts at different
                      locations in agams. They are kal, swabhava, karma purushart and
                      niyati. The writings of Haribhadra suri show them all together.

                      In agams like Upasak dasa ang agam, we find that there is discussion
                      between Kund kolik shravak and a dev who believes in Niyati vaad. It
                      is found that the principles of Mahavir swami advocate the concept of
                      utthan (get up), karma (here action ) bal (strength ) virya (energy
                      etc. ) parakram (adventure – towards moksha marg). When the dev is
                      unable to answer after the discussion , on next day in the
                      samavasaran, Mahavir swami praises the stand taken by Kund kolik
                      shravak. This is one of the rare occasion where tirthankar praises a
                      shravak – Oh kundkolik you are Dhanya " (tam dhanne si nam tam
                      kundkoliye .. Prakrit ) . The vitragi tirthankar sets this as bench
                      mark for all the sangh to follow. When kevali / vitragi does
                      anumodna, it has to be unique . ( In fact the actual difference
                      between Goshalak `s theory is acceptance of ekant niyati vaad as
                      compared syadvad anekantwad)

                      Uttaradhyan highlight 73 different adventures in moksha marg in the
                      29 th chapter.
                      The concept of samvar and nirjara are also directed at action only.
                      Thus one can see that action etc are required for all the five
                      samavaya for for any karya – karan (action – cause relationship ( as
                      per literature. ).

                      The concept of Gunasthan is also linked with action. Some jiva attain
                      samyaktva and attain moksha (these are called a-padavayi- one who
                      does not fall) . Some attain samyaktva , fall down and regain and
                      attain moksha (concept of uday of karma and efforts in shedding of
                      karma). (These are padavayi jiva – one who falls) Some jiva attain
                      samyaktva, fall , rise and continue this cycle asamkhya (uncountable-
                      which is higher than countable but lower than anant- infinite ) time
                      and then attain moksha (here the description is based number of
                      fallings and risings). Some fall and regain samyaktva just after anta-
                      muhurat and can achive moksha. Some fall and remain there for ardh-
                      pudgal paravartan – infinite time scale and then rise and attain
                      moksha. All this varieties / permutations exist in loka owing to 5
                      samavaya Iincluding presence of proper and improper purusharth. (As
                      a offshoot it is only agams which give us such great variety of
                      knowledge about such reality in loka )


                      The above are all belief based viewpoints from literary references.
                      One can have even logic based view points. There is large literature
                      on this issue.


                      The events in the world may appear in sequence depending on
                      standpoint and frame of reference. The concept of Krama baddha
                      paryaya – etc. is a point of great discussion in last century . Even
                      there large literature exists. But from multiplicity of standpoints
                      and certain agamic references alternate views are present.

                      Sincere m/d if anything is written against jain agams.
                      Whatever gyani says is praman. This is my understanding.

                      Mehul








                      --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, jyoti kothari <jyoti_kothari@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Dear Sudheerji,
                      > I am almost agree with u.Though the concept is
                      > difficult to digest for orthodox.
                      > I am searching for this question for many years but
                      > till date no final sollution.
                      > To the best,
                      > As four dimensional Einstienian physics can not
                      > befitted in the classical model/ framework of
                      > newtonian physics; keval-jnyana can not be known by
                      > Shruta jnyana.Any thing we guess will either misfit/
                      > inadequate/ incomplete.
                      > Syadvada suggests o accept both the models, static/
                      > dynamic in due context.
                      > Discussions/ contribution from the scholars awaited.
                      > Tatwam tu Kevali gamyam.
                      > thanx,
                      > Jyoti
                      >
                      > --- "Sudhir M. Shah" <sudhir@o...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Here is an article I had published 5 years ago
                      > > addressing similar issue. In my opinion, the dynamic
                      > > model of Kevel-gyan leaves room for "prursharth".
                      > > The static model does not. You choose the model you
                      > > want to accept.
                      > >
                      > > Is Kevel-gyan Static or Dynamic?
                      > >
                    • Sreepalan VC
                      Samyak Darshan Dear Your Friends for Ever Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 11, 2005
                        Samyak Darshan

                        Dear "Your Friends for Ever"
                        <whitstar@...>

                        Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                        Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                        be given.

                        Sub: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                        Ref: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:51:22 +0530

                        Story revealed by you differs from Digamber Jain
                        Sacred Scriptures.

                        Reply:
                        Irndeed it is an anecdote from Prthamanuyog which
                        carries different versions from different
                        presenters.And story from Digamber sacred scriptures
                        is that for the 63 days the oracle or Dhivya Doni of
                        Baghavaan Mahavir did not manifest after attaining
                        Keval Gynaan. Worried Indra found out by his avadhi
                        gynaan that a worthy votary is not showing up and
                        hence the oracle is not manifesting. So he approaches
                        Indraboothi’s place as a Brahmin and requested him to
                        explain the meaning of one sloka: ”Trikaale etc.,”
                        compiled by Indra himself which Indraboothi could not
                        understand. Angered Indraboothi demanded from Indra
                        who has written this sloka and where is he? Then
                        Indraboothi along with his 500 disciples and Indra go
                        to Samavasaran of Baghavaan Mahavir and the rest of
                        the story was already in the submission.

                        So the different versions of stories are not to be
                        taken as base for establishing the veracity of a
                        doctrine of Jina Dharma.

                        Now repliles to your question:

                        01) Bhagwan mahaveer went to Indrabhooti,and solved
                        his doubt and made him his gandhar,why.

                        Reply:
                        Baghavaan Mahavir did not go to Indraboothi and
                        Indrabooth after realizing the greatness of the
                        Omniscient Thrithankar face to face embraced asterism
                        of his accord and became the first Gandhar. Baghavaan
                        had no need to make him Gandhar. Indraboothi’s
                        determined will to become liberated and bowed him to
                        accept diksha and once the capable votary is found in
                        Samavasaran, Dhivya Dhoni started flowing and thus
                        Gowtham became the first of 11 Gandhars.

                        02) when in Samavasaran Bhagwan was giving Vakhyan why
                        did all the beings there not get kevlgyan and
                        Nirvan,and even Gautam Budh did not get the kevlgyan
                        in samavasaran.why.

                        Reply:
                        Attaining Keval Gynaan by any soul is soul’s own
                        individual effort and if it is happening in the
                        presence of Thrithankar, His presence is only a
                        nimitta and upadhan kaaran – substantial cause is only
                        soul’s undivided effort to attain Keval Gynaan. Keval
                        Gynaani cannot make any one as another Keval Gynaani.

                        Gowtham Gandhar having been initiated himself into
                        ascetic life as Gandhar, he has to listen to Dhivya
                        Dhoni and he cannot concentrate on his own qualities –
                        meditate on himself so his securing Keval Gynaan could
                        only be after Baghavaan Mahavir’s Keval Gynaan. Many
                        other aspirant Minis have attained Keval Gynaan before
                        Gowtham because they were free to immerse in
                        themselves during their stay in Samavasaran.

                        03) Bhagwan mahaveer went to Chandakoshik naga and
                        preached to the serpant,why.

                        Reply:
                        Not familiar with the story, sorry.

                        04) Bhagwan Mahaveers first preaching went waste as
                        all there were Dev and devis and could not take
                        diksha??why

                        Reply:
                        It is not only from first preaching but until all the
                        preaching were over, none of the dev,devi, animals
                        etc., who were present in Samavasaran attained, as
                        their birth cannot permit them to observes siyem –
                        control of sensory pleasures and mediate. Thus the
                        process was not followed and when any of them were
                        born in subsequent births as human they would have
                        taken diksha and attained Keval Gynaan.

                        05) Does jainism believe in astrology and nava
                        grahas,then IS the Theory of navagrahas controling our
                        Atma correct?

                        Reply:
                        Yes, but for the worldly transactions to a limited
                        extent. Jina Saasan knows Nava grahas but have no
                        relevance of its control on Atma. Atma alone can
                        control Atma and not even Omniscient Thrithankar.

                        06) sorry for asking short replies,I accept that Time
                        has made us slaves and knowledge vast.

                        Reply:
                        Choice is one’s to continue in mundane world and look
                        to liberation later. Chakkravartis. Indras and
                        infinite ordinary humans have all had time and
                        patience to know themselves but infinite and infinite
                        humans do not have time to know themselves and so the
                        world continues infinitely.

                        Attempt is made to place the information and
                        understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                        man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                        help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                        Please forgive and forget for any unintentional
                        excesses that might hurt and it is only fraternal
                        affinity that goaded to place.

                        Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                        Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
                        revelation of Kevalin.

                        Now for the participants,

                        Yours brotherly,
                        sreepalan

                        ---
                      • Your Friends for Ever
                        Dear sir, why are we seprated jains = Digambars,swetambers,stanakvasis,terapanthis etc,so so so But Jain???? can we all not become single Jains comunity -To
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2005
                          Dear sir,
                          why are we seprated jains = Digambars,swetambers,stanakvasis,terapanthis etc,so so so But Jain????
                          can we all not become single Jains comunity -To understand jainism rather have conflicts and loose our Golden Traditions and Many Temples.Can our seperate identity NOT cause many other fractures in future,
                          what is our Jain comunity thinking about Joining in the sole effort to unite as one and live as one and preach and understand jainism from the Great souls available today as Many Munis are preaching with vast knowledge are with us in our lives near to us but avoided due to minor differences.
                          we are left out to understand things wrong about our own Jainism because of these social castesim amongst us.
                          what should be done for the same goal,or rather you would say this had to happen,
                          we ALL believe Bhagwan Mahavir but difference is created like Pakistan and India???
                          we should stand as one and protect the Legacy left behind for us and hand it to our future genrations as jains and not as enemies.
                          Sorry if my feelings have Hurt anybody but please understand the Problem which requires to be solved sooner the Better.
                          MITCHMIDUKADAM,
                          Thanks
                           
                        • Sreepalan VC
                          Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia, Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be given. Sub: [JainList] Re:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2005
                            Samyak Darshan

                            Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia,

                            Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                            Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                            be given.

                            Sub: [JainList] Re: Jainism - keval gyan
                            Ref: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 10:27:58 –0000

                            Informative and thought provoking indeed the
                            submission it is and a similar submission was also
                            appeared in the discussion table, if the memory is
                            right.

                            Nonetheless it is a doctrine of vitraag Jina Dharma
                            that needs many more addressings too to bring in an
                            unassailable faith and following of it in one.

                            Vitraag Jina Dharma surpasses all barriers and bias
                            including the divided Jain community, be it Digamber
                            or Swethamber, Sthanakvasi, Therapanthi etc., or else
                            the very study for which precious time and energy
                            spent on it will be sheer waste and disappointment and
                            frustration only will attend one at the time of last
                            breath, any doubt?

                            So it is needless to elaborate on this, as all of us
                            in one way or the other are participating with the
                            only object of learning and learning only. Not only to
                            know but also to believe and conduct too, is that
                            right. May be the involvement and interest may vary in
                            degree but not in kind, agreed.

                            You all know that container or label is only to
                            identify the product and nothing beyond but it is not
                            the product itself. For instance Brookbond tea is
                            written on a thin cardboard packet and can we put this
                            cardboard packet cut into pieces in milk and water and
                            brew tea as the name of the tea is only on the
                            cardboard not on actual tea leaves which are inside
                            the packet. Every one knows about it. The cardboard
                            box carrying the name of the brand and not tea is
                            vyavahaaric. What is contained inside the cardboard
                            box is real tea - nischaya - which alone will yield
                            the desired or attempted goal, is that sensed.

                            On the submission, some random thoughts that occurred
                            are placed for the learned participants and are
                            welcome to come up with their cherished views.

                            Quote:
                            " the person who does not know Niyati and Aniyati is
                            not Budhhiman. "

                            The concept of Krama baddha paryaya – etc. is a point
                            of great discussion in last century

                            Analysis:
                            Niyati and aniyati in vitraag Jina Dharma means the
                            happening of events or changes in the 6 kinds of
                            substances in the universe, be it spiritual or
                            physical.

                            Niyati means the manifestation of paryaaya or
                            expressions in orderly manner ie., one after the
                            other. ie., prinaman or paryaaya of a quality is
                            flowing or manifesting in an orderly manner, one after
                            the other.

                            And aniyati is the happening of events simultaneously
                            as against one after the other. For example the
                            infinite qualities of soul are manifesting
                            simultaneously their respective parinaman or paryaaya
                            unmindful of the manifestation of paryaaya in each
                            other.

                            Rightly said that in the vitraag Jain Sacred scripture
                            that knowledge of this theory of niyati and aniyati
                            makes a man an informed person to prosecute the study
                            and understanding of Jina Dharma or else one is
                            uninformed.

                            Krambad paryaaya is another name of niyati and it is
                            the orderly fixed expressions of all the substances as
                            depicted in Kevalin’s Keval Gynaan. Changes /
                            expressions are ceaselessly taking place in all the
                            substances in the universe as depicted in the Keval
                            Gynaan and there fore it is called krambad paryaaya –
                            oderly fixed expressions.

                            Quote:
                            However it is also found that purusharth is given lot
                            of importance
                            at numerous places in agams.

                            Analysis:
                            Purusharth (effort) is essentially concerning of soul
                            substance and it is a combination of two words pursuh
                            = soul + arth = useful functioning qualities (arth
                            kriya karithvam).

                            So what can soul or its infinite qualities can
                            manifest and it is essentially concerning the
                            chethanathva – knowing and seeing (gynaatha and
                            dhrishta) although infinite qualities are also
                            manifesting their respective expressions ie., faith,
                            strength, bliss. Manifestation is ceaseless and
                            eternal. This is vitraag Jina Dharma.

                            Quote:
                            In Bhagawati the different bhav (lives) of Goshalak
                            are mentioned,
                            lakhs of bhav in future in sequential manner. In
                            vipak ang agam
                            similar descriptions are found for Mriga lodha prince,
                            lakhs of bhava
                            in sequence are narrated. And there are many other
                            instances.

                            Analysis:
                            Sequences of events detailed in Prathamanuyog are
                            quoted to concretize the niyati vaad.

                            Quote:
                            Thus It is perceived that since kevali sees in keval
                            gyan, destiny is
                            predetermined. But the nature of kevali is to see (
                            darshan – not
                            with eyes as normal jiva with chaksu indriya )and
                            know .

                            Analysis:
                            Kevali’s function is explained here as He is seeing
                            His Keval Gynaan and hence the destiny of all living
                            beings is predetermined.

                            Actually Kevalin and Keval Gynaan are not two
                            different truths of existence but one and the same
                            substance with knowledge quality mentioned and the
                            rest are silenced. Soul is Gynaan and Gynaan is soul
                            for all practical purposes of understanding Soul –
                            Athma Thathva.

                            Next, existence presupposes the functioning –
                            vasthuthva. Therefore, gynaan quality’s function is
                            ‘knowing and seeing’ and this function does not
                            require any effort on the part of Kevalin or any soul
                            for that matter. Knowing and seeing is happening in
                            Kevalin or any soul normally and automatically with
                            out any brought in or attempt from any of them.
                            Kevalin, Keval Gynaan and chetanathva are all one and
                            the same substance.

                            Nothing comes in or goes out of Kevalin or Keval
                            Gynaan in the process of knowing and seeing, is that
                            right? Therefore Kevali / Keval Gynaan is knowing and
                            seeing only Keval Gynaan/Kevalin.

                            But there must be some information flowing in the
                            process of knowing and seeing of the Keval Gynaan
                            (gunn) of Kevalin, is that right? The information is
                            nothing but the entire universe with all its 6 kinds
                            of its constituents and their ceaseless functions from
                            the beginning less time to endless time are reflected
                            in Kevalin or Keval Gynaan.

                            Prameyathva gunn – exhibiting quality is one of the
                            ordinary qualities of all the 6 kinds of substances
                            and so substances and their expressions are
                            ceaselessly exhibiting, unmindful of any one is
                            knowing or seeing.

                            And Kevalin / Keaval Gynaan reflects ceaselessly the
                            universe as explained herein above in one payaaya the
                            life of which is one samaya. So Kevalin / Keval Gynaan
                            by Keval Gynaan reflects ceaselessly only Keval Gynaan
                            and the information obtained in Keval Gynann is the
                            entire universe as explained herein above. It carries
                            nothing but the ananth payaayas - infinite
                            modifications/expressions - of all the substances,
                            including infinite Kevalin’s own paryaaya in one
                            samaya.

                            Since all the paryaas – modifications are reflected in
                            one paryaaya of Keval Gynaan, it is said that the
                            future events or destiny of souls will manifest in the
                            order in which it is reflected. So they are
                            predetermined as per Kevalin’s Keval Gynaan.

                            Right it is to say that destiny is predetermined from
                            the Kevalin’s point of view but not from the mundane
                            souls’ point of views. For mundane soul is not
                            reflecting in its knowledge the orderly events as
                            reflected in Keval Gynaan. Since the future events are
                            unknown to the mundane soul, it has to endeavor to
                            know, believe and conduct as Kevalin has revealed in
                            Dhivya Dhoni or vitraag Jain Sacred Scriptures, if
                            only one wishes or wants to attain Keval Gynaan as
                            attained by Kevalin. Or otherwise also one would be
                            continuing the cycle of birth and death as seen in
                            Keval Gynaan.

                            Quote:
                            The nature of individual jiva is to follow its own
                            future based on five samavaya .

                            There is mention of 5 samavaya under different
                            contexts at different
                            locations in agams. They are kal, swabhava, karma
                            purushart and
                            niyati. The writings of Haribhadra suri show them all
                            together.

                            Thus one can see that action etc are required for all
                            the five
                            samavaya for for any karya – karan (action – cause
                            relationship ( as
                            per literature. ).

                            Analysis:
                            The statement carries slightly clouded assertion as
                            what could soul follow other than what Kevalin has
                            pursued to attain Keval Gynaan and where in pancha
                            samavaaya enters and what could be its contribution
                            for securing Keval Gynaan.

                            What is samavaaya?

                            This is a condition of relationship for an event said
                            to have happened in the presence of various
                            operational factors viz., purusharth - effort, niyati-
                            order of events, swabhaav – nature of substance in
                            which happened, kaal – time when happened and karma
                            –karmic molecules sprouting. These five factors are
                            called pancha samavaaya.

                            Samavaaya is not a substance, not a quality and not an
                            expression (paryaaya).

                            Neither it is brought in and nor sent out for the
                            happening of an event but merely the accidental
                            presence of five factors.

                            You know that all the substances are always
                            functioning and with out any assistance or help from
                            any other substance. The presence of these five
                            independent factors presents events, which are not
                            caused by these factors, but they are only present at
                            the time of happening of an event be it desired or
                            not.

                            Quote:
                            Keval gyan is like a mirror lying on the cross roads,
                            it
                            reflects whatever passes along the road, (whatever
                            events occur /
                            happens) . The additional feature is that, it also
                            reflects what has
                            happened and will happen in future. It is like a
                            mirror reflecting
                            dravya, kshetra, kaal, bhaav and guna – all five
                            dimensions ( length,
                            breadth, depth are already covered under dravya )
                            which are
                            constituents of multi faceted reality.

                            Analysis:
                            Keval Gynaan is the pure natural expression – subhaava
                            suddha paryaaya of Gynaan gunn of Kevalin. This
                            expression is developed naturally by Kevalin’s gynaan
                            gunn with out any effort in the normal existential
                            functioning. Kevalin’s Keval Gynaan has no past,
                            present and future. In on samya every thing of
                            universe with all the expressions from the beginning
                            less time to endless time is reflected. Every samaya a
                            fresh paryaaya with same kind of reflections appears
                            and disappears like waves in the sea.

                            Rightly quoted the example of mirror.

                            But mirror is equated in our vitraag sarcred
                            scriptures, as an 01)unchanging substance complete -
                            mirror, with all its 02)unchanging qualities – frame
                            to hold, glass plain and uniform surface, chemicals
                            painted in one side, etc., and 03)expressions
                            (paryaayas)- ceaseless reflections on the surface of
                            the mirror.

                            Neither mirror goes to the object reflected nor the
                            object reflected comes to the mirror but due to its
                            intrinsic capacity or the capability, mirror develops
                            duplicate / image of objects. In the mirror none of
                            the qualities of object is present. So the images
                            reflected are the paryaayas of mirror and not of
                            object. Object has nothing to do with mirror or its
                            image and vice se versa.

                            Similarly Kevalin’s soul or any other living being’s
                            soul develops images of objects and such images of
                            objects are made out of gynaan and nothing to with the
                            substances of the universe.

                            Keval Gynaani is the 13th stage of the vyavahaaric
                            classificatin of soul’s development called gunasthan
                            towards its purity – suddhathva / Siddhathva.

                            Atman is that much of gynaan, gynaan is that much of
                            objects and objects are that much of lok.

                            Keval Gynaan of Kealin is infinitely infinite and
                            there is no end to it.

                            This is in very brief of Keval Gynaan by a learner.

                            Stories in life of Baghavaan Mahavir needs no comment.

                            Attempt is made to place the information and
                            understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                            man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                            help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                            Please forgive and forget for any unintentional
                            excesses that might hurt and it is only fraternal
                            affinity that goaded to place.

                            Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                            Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
                            revelation of Kevalin.

                            Now for the participants,

                            Yours brotherly,
                            Sreepalan
                          • Sreepalan VC
                            Samyak Darshan Dear shri Kamin shah. Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be given. Sub: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 14, 2005
                              Samyak Darshan

                              Dear shri Kamin shah.

                              Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                              Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                              be given.

                              Sub: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                              Ref: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:44:33 +0530

                              Lofty, indeed, it is and was/is the wishful thinking
                              from generations not only from the era of Baghavvan
                              Mahavir but from the times immemorial.

                              Groups of 24 Thritathankars definitely manifested from
                              one among us only and shall manifest so in this
                              magnificent Bharat Kshetra for the all the times to
                              come with out any doubt. That is Jina Vachan.

                              Vitraag Jina Dharma surpasses all barriers and bias
                              including the divided Jain community, be it Digamber
                              or Swethamber, Sthanakvasi, Therapanthi etc., or else
                              the very study for which precious time and energy
                              spent on it will be sheer waste and disappointment and
                              frustration only will attend one at the time of last
                              breath, any doubt

                              But were there any change in me or in you and all
                              those still lingering in thinking of others than self.
                              So others are needed for us hence we are with others.
                              The day the aspirant soul thinks to end the suffering
                              of its birth in the cycle, the direction of path
                              changes from others to self. That is the path of Jina
                              Dharma revealed by infinite Thrithankars, any
                              lingering doubt?

                              Is there anything in this universe which more
                              important and great than your self? And if so, please
                              let know what it is – thing or soul with valid
                              reasons. If not, spell out the reasons for why you’re
                              the most important and great to you?

                              Infinite Thirthankars, infinite Kevalins, have decided
                              and acted and so they are separated and deified and
                              elevated themselves to enjoy their inexhaustible
                              treasure and wealth of infinite knowledge, infinite
                              faith, infinite strength and infinite bliss.

                              You, me, and all those who profess knew that liberated
                              souls are liberated from suffering and pain and are
                              basking in bliss. So their existence, if believed, in
                              Siddhaalay is a continual and permanent live monument
                              and model to be emulated.

                              So it is for one to choose whether to be with others
                              in the mundane world and continue to suffer or to
                              concentrate on one’s self and become deified souls to
                              enjoy one’s treasure and wealth.

                              Jina Dharma is Swa Dharma – knowing the nature of self
                              , Swa Dharshan – believeing the nature of self and Swa
                              abbimaan – respecting by conducting as self.

                              Now choice is yours.

                              Attempt is made to place the information and
                              understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                              man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                              help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                              Please forgive and forget for any unintentional
                              excesses that might hurt and it is only fraternal
                              affinity that goaded to place.

                              Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                              Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
                              revelation of Kevalin.

                              Now for the participants,

                              Yours brotherly,
                              sreepalan


                              --- Your Friends for Ever <whitstar@...>
                              wrote:

                              > Dear sir,
                              > why are we seprated jains =
                              > Digambars,swetambers,stanakvasis,terapanthis etc,so
                              > so so But Jain????
                              > can we all not become single Jains comunity -To
                              > understand jainism rather have conflicts and loose
                              > our Golden Traditions and Many Temples.Can our
                              > seperate identity NOT cause many other fractures in
                              > future,
                              > what is our Jain comunity thinking about Joining in
                              > the sole effort to unite as one and live as one and
                              > preach and understand jainism from the Great souls
                              > available today as Many Munis are preaching with
                              > vast knowledge are with us in our lives near to us
                              > but avoided due to minor differences.
                              > we are left out to understand things wrong about our
                              > own Jainism because of these social castesim amongst
                              > us.
                              > what should be done for the same goal,or rather you
                              > would say this had to happen,
                              > we ALL believe Bhagwan Mahavir but difference is
                              > created like Pakistan and India???
                              > we should stand as one and protect the Legacy left
                              > behind for us and hand it to our future genrations
                              > as jains and not as enemies.
                              > Sorry if my feelings have Hurt anybody but please
                              > understand the Problem which requires to be solved
                              > sooner the Better.
                              > MITCHMIDUKADAM,
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              >




                              ____________________________________________________
                              Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                            • Anish Shah
                              My Dear Friend, Jai Jinendra, I do appreciate your concern on divisions in Jainism. There are some irreconcilable differences, but on the major core issues the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 14, 2005
                                My Dear Friend,
                                 
                                Jai Jinendra,
                                 
                                I do appreciate your concern on divisions in Jainism. There are some irreconcilable differences, but on the major core issues the differences are quite negligible. So even if you are following strictly the teachings of a particular sect....you would not be missing much. Also see the beneficial side of having different sects; this has created a vast amount of Swetambar and Digambar literature - in case of different viewpoint you are free to choose. Anyway atleast we are not at each other's throats like Shia-Sunni or Catholic-Protestants.
                                 
                                Sects and difference are inevitable. There are dozens of sects in all major religions. Even recent religions like Sikhism and Swami Narayan have many sects. We need someone like Gautam Swami and Keshi Muni for merger of sects which I don't think will happen in next 60,000 years. Even joint families ultimately divide inspite of being bonded by blood relations. Two brother's who cannot the sight of each other when together, share good relation when separated. Although living together is an ideal situation, it is not a practical solution. Some families which make a show of unity are often ridden with internal squabbles.
                                 
                                Hence, I am unable to see any reason to panic. Have you analysed what catastrophic consequences may occur due to such difference? Have you studied the differences between various sects and tried to reconcile the differences ? Or are you just complaining for the sake of it? What solution and action plan do you offer ?
                                 
                                Michhami Dukkadam
                                 
                                Anish Shah
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Cc: >
                                Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:44 PM
                                Subject: Re: [JainList] Jainism

                                Dear sir,
                                why are we seprated jains = Digambars,swetambers,stanakvasis,terapanthis etc,so so so But Jain????
                                can we all not become single Jains comunity -To understand jainism rather have conflicts and loose our Golden Traditions and Many Temples.Can our seperate identity NOT cause many other fractures in future,
                                what is our Jain comunity thinking about Joining in the sole effort to unite as one and live as one and preach and understand jainism from the Great souls available today as Many Munis are preaching with vast knowledge are with us in our lives near to us but avoided due to minor differences.
                                we are left out to understand things wrong about our own Jainism because of these social castesim amongst us.
                                what should be done for the same goal,or rather you would say this had to happen,
                                we ALL believe Bhagwan Mahavir but difference is created like Pakistan and India???
                                we should stand as one and protect the Legacy left behind for us and hand it to our future genrations as jains and not as enemies.
                                Sorry if my feelings have Hurt anybody but please understand the Problem which requires to be solved sooner the Better.
                                MITCHMIDUKADAM,
                                Thanks
                                 


                                JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.

                              • Your Friends for Ever
                                Dear Shri Anish Shah & All My Jain Friends, Differences when taken in the right direction improves every one in the society but when greed comes into the same
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 15, 2005
                                  Dear Shri Anish Shah & All My Jain Friends,
                                  Differences when taken in the right direction improves every one in the society but when greed comes into the same the difference comes to the core and the Bonding vanishes.
                                  "Anyway atleast we are not at each other's throats like Shia-Sunni or Catholic-Protestants."
                                  why have you come to know about them??is because the differences grew Bigger and bigger and the common Religious Thought of seperation is no more expect the benefits of very few who govern the whole sect.
                                  Do you think Allah would like his own followers to do this.??or Christ would like to Know this???
                                  Preachers cannot become God and they are there to give deeper thought to a subject than a common man and should have a limit but when the Preachers want to be termed as Gods....they divide the Families,Religions and what not....Any Doubt.
                                  we follow a Religion and there should be differences for Betterment but then division cannot be the only solution,
                                  when our fore fathers could be Joint families we are getting seperated as we cannot serve our own people and listen or follow our own people,and in jains with the Good education to Shravaks and Shravikas and also the freedom enjoyed for the last 50 years have caused families to divide where ever it happens.
                                  If you can accept your Elders and serve them with care & Concern is good but other wise we have Old Age Houses only in the last 50 years and then we too may be pushed in to the same if we do not give a Thought not to get divided for others to Benefit from our fighting.
                                  Even After 50 years what British did to our country was to divide us and go and we have to be fighting without cause spending Crores for the others to enjoy.,and our country will remain poor and poor.,
                                  we actually do not know which is the Actual Line of control (LOC) and which is Indian Teritory and which is Pakistans teritory thou you and I am Paying taxes of all kinds.
                                  if Mr.Mushraf and Mr.Manmohan accept the mutual Friendship Bonds then what will the 3rd world do??where will they sell there weapons.,and the same is applied here with any religion.
                                  Please accept ALL Jains as one & have a single Moral Code conduct for jains and follow the model code conduct truely for the benefit of our future generations.
                                  2 Brothers divide but when ....? only when a Third person walks into the family and creates the divisions.,
                                  But if your Bonding was good then how can you see the difference only when you want to divide not before that.,and the weak link is disturbed for the division to take place not the Strongest Link in any society.
                                  Followers are required for Any division in any Religious society and when the followers follow Blindly the preacher wants to become God...? and thus may create a new sect from the old.
                                  Hope i have not disturbed anybody with my Thought,
                                  Do not accept anything Blindly and Resist some body trying to divide without any Reasons but personal gains.
                                  Jainam Jayati Shashanam..............
                                  Thanks.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Anish Shah
                                  To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:02 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [JainList] Jainism


                                  My Dear Friend,

                                  Jai Jinendra,

                                  I do appreciate your concern on divisions in Jainism. There are some irreconcilable differences, but on the major core issues the differences are quite negligible. So even if you are following strictly the teachings of a particular sect....you would not be missing much. Also see the beneficial side of having different sects; this has created a vast amount of Swetambar and Digambar literature - in case of different viewpoint you are free to choose. Anyway atleast we are not at each other's throats like Shia-Sunni or Catholic-Protestants.

                                  Sects and difference are inevitable. There are dozens of sects in all major religions. Even recent religions like Sikhism and Swami Narayan have many sects. We need someone like Gautam Swami and Keshi Muni for merger of sects which I don't think will happen in next 60,000 years. Even joint families ultimately divide inspite of being bonded by blood relations. Two brother's who cannot the sight of each other when together, share good relation when separated. Although living together is an ideal situation, it is not a practical solution. Some families which make a show of unity are often ridden with internal squabbles.

                                  Hence, I am unable to see any reason to panic. Have you analysed what catastrophic consequences may occur due to such difference? Have you studied the differences between various sects and tried to reconcile the differences ? Or are you just complaining for the sake of it? What solution and action plan do you offer ?

                                  Michhami Dukkadam

                                  Anish Shah
                                • Anish Shah
                                  Dear Your Friends for ever and other Jain Friends, Jai Jinendra, Firstly, I would appreciate if you could identify yourself so that we know whom we are
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 17, 2005
                                    Dear "Your Friends for ever" and other Jain Friends,

                                    Jai Jinendra,

                                    Firstly, I would appreciate if you could identify yourself so that we know whom we are addressing to. Secondly, thanks for bringing up the issue of unity of Jains on the discussion board.

                                    I mentioned the eg. of other religions as the differences between the sects have turned violent resulting in riots or civil wars. But don't worry, as all the Jain sects believe in the doctrine of "Non-Violence" such a situation should not arise. Please understand that Preachers did become gods when they attained Keval Jnana, but in 4th era.....now, it is not possible as you admit. In 4th era what was possible would be impossible in 5th era. No one can divide anyone, it is we who are responsible for divisions; the enemy is always within. The institution of Joint Family is on decline, not only because of moral degradation of the society at large, but also because of way the women were shabbily treated in the patriarchal Joint Family System. But I guess, this and the politics between India and Pakistan is not the main issue here and this is not the right forum to discuss.

                                    I did say that your concern on divisions in Jainism is shared by all. However, please understand that this is the Fifth "Ara" or Era as per the Jain time cycle, wherein, the moral standards of the people are in a deterioration stage. The humility and straightforwardness of the people in 4th era is missing. The Story of how monks of the order of Parshwanath Bhagwan led by Keshi Muni merged with the order of Mahavir Swami led by Gautam Swami is well known. Do you think this is possible now ?

                                    Just as the father seeks to perpetuate his family lineage by having a son, very often, knowledgeable persons seek to perpetuate their name by creating a separate sect or a religion. Often, well meaning people who have tried to unite everyone have ended up in creating a different sect. Terapanthis believe in principle of One Acharya, one code of conduct for everyone. But ultimately it turned out to be a separate sect of Jainism. Further, much of the original knowledge of 14 Purvas has been lost. Our current Agams are based on the 14 purvas or in come cases they have been re-written. In such a scenario, the differences on authenticity of certain issues are bound to come up.

                                    I agree that an Ideal situation would be that all Jains consider themselves as Jains rather than Digambers or Swetambers. However, the objective should not be to convert digamber's to Swetamber and vice versa. Rather than cribbing about the differences, here is what we can do to ensure that we Jains stay united :-

                                    1) The common issues concerning Jainism as a whole like "Minority Status for Jains" should be taken up unitedly by all Jains.
                                    2) Internal squabbles like management of Tirthsthans should be amicably settled.
                                    3) We can study each others scriptures and sutras so as to understand Jainism from different point of views. We must respect each others monks as true Jain monks. I think every one will agree to my point here.
                                    4) Seminars, conventions and social groups should be kept non-sectarian. This is actually being put in practice like Jain social groups etc.
                                    5) Internet discussion groups should also be non sectarian. Groups like Jainlist, indeed play an important part in uniting various factions of Jains.
                                    6) Further, we also need to run schools managed by Jain trusts in the lines of Convent schools run by missionaries. This should also be non-sectarian.

                                    Ultimately, as Shri Sreepalanji has mentioned in his one of his submissions whether there anything in this universe which more important and great than your soul ? And that Vitraag Jina Dharma surpasses all barriers and bias including the divided Jain community.

                                    Sincere Michhami Dukkadam if I have said anything wrong,

                                    Anish Arun Shah

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Your Friends for Ever
                                    To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: Sreepalan VC
                                    Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 2:35 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [JainList] Jainism


                                    Dear Shri Anish Shah & All My Jain Friends,
                                    Differences when taken in the right direction improves every one in the society but when greed comes into the same the difference comes to the core and the Bonding vanishes.
                                    "Anyway atleast we are not at each other's throats like Shia-Sunni or Catholic-Protestants."
                                    why have you come to know about them??is because the differences grew Bigger and bigger and the common Religious Thought of seperation is no more expect the benefits of very few who govern the whole sect.
                                    Do you think Allah would like his own followers to do this.??or Christ would like to Know this???
                                  • jyoti kothari
                                    Dear Friends, Good suggessions.We may learn from the history too. There was Yapaniya samudaya at a time.They believed in Swetambar agamas but their assetics
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 19, 2005
                                      Dear Friends,
                                      Good suggessions.We may learn from the history too.
                                      There was "Yapaniya" samudaya at a time.They believed
                                      in Swetambar agamas but their assetics were naked.
                                      We may see idols of Kankali Teela which r representing
                                      or lead to unity.
                                      Thanx,
                                      jyoti

                                      --- Anish Shah <anishshah19@...> wrote:

                                      > Dear "Your Friends for ever" and other Jain Friends,
                                      >
                                      > Jai Jinendra,
                                      >
                                      > Firstly, I would appreciate if you could identify
                                      > yourself so that we know whom we are addressing to.
                                      > Secondly, thanks for bringing up the issue of unity
                                      > of Jains on the discussion board.
                                      >
                                      > I mentioned the eg. of other religions as the
                                      > differences between the sects have turned violent
                                      > resulting in riots or civil wars. But don't worry,
                                      > as all the Jain sects believe in the doctrine of
                                      > "Non-Violence" such a situation should not arise.
                                      > Please understand that Preachers did become gods
                                      > when they attained Keval Jnana, but in 4th
                                      > era.....now, it is not possible as you admit. In 4th
                                      > era what was possible would be impossible in 5th
                                      > era. No one can divide anyone, it is we who are
                                      > responsible for divisions; the enemy is always
                                      > within. The institution of Joint Family is on
                                      > decline, not only because of moral degradation of
                                      > the society at large, but also because of way the
                                      > women were shabbily treated in the patriarchal Joint
                                      > Family System. But I guess, this and the politics
                                      > between India and Pakistan is not the main issue
                                      > here and this is not the right forum to discuss.
                                      >
                                      > I did say that your concern on divisions in Jainism
                                      > is shared by all. However, please understand that
                                      > this is the Fifth "Ara" or Era as per the Jain time
                                      > cycle, wherein, the moral standards of the people
                                      > are in a deterioration stage. The humility and
                                      > straightforwardness of the people in 4th era is
                                      > missing. The Story of how monks of the order of
                                      > Parshwanath Bhagwan led by Keshi Muni merged with
                                      > the order of Mahavir Swami led by Gautam Swami is
                                      > well known. Do you think this is possible now ?
                                      >
                                      > Just as the father seeks to perpetuate his family
                                      > lineage by having a son, very often, knowledgeable
                                      > persons seek to perpetuate their name by creating a
                                      > separate sect or a religion. Often, well meaning
                                      > people who have tried to unite everyone have ended
                                      > up in creating a different sect. Terapanthis believe
                                      > in principle of One Acharya, one code of conduct for
                                      > everyone. But ultimately it turned out to be a
                                      > separate sect of Jainism. Further, much of the
                                      > original knowledge of 14 Purvas has been lost. Our
                                      > current Agams are based on the 14 purvas or in come
                                      > cases they have been re-written. In such a scenario,
                                      > the differences on authenticity of certain issues
                                      > are bound to come up.
                                      >
                                      > I agree that an Ideal situation would be that all
                                      > Jains consider themselves as Jains rather than
                                      > Digambers or Swetambers. However, the objective
                                      > should not be to convert digamber's to Swetamber and
                                      > vice versa. Rather than cribbing about the
                                      > differences, here is what we can do to ensure that
                                      > we Jains stay united :-
                                      >
                                      > 1) The common issues concerning Jainism as a whole
                                      > like "Minority Status for Jains" should be taken up
                                      > unitedly by all Jains.
                                      > 2) Internal squabbles like management of Tirthsthans
                                      > should be amicably settled.
                                      > 3) We can study each others scriptures and sutras so
                                      > as to understand Jainism from different point of
                                      > views. We must respect each others monks as true
                                      > Jain monks. I think every one will agree to my point
                                      > here.
                                      > 4) Seminars, conventions and social groups should be
                                      > kept non-sectarian. This is actually being put in
                                      > practice like Jain social groups etc.
                                      > 5) Internet discussion groups should also be non
                                      > sectarian. Groups like Jainlist, indeed play an
                                      > important part in uniting various factions of Jains.
                                      > 6) Further, we also need to run schools managed by
                                      > Jain trusts in the lines of Convent schools run by
                                      > missionaries. This should also be non-sectarian.
                                      >
                                      > Ultimately, as Shri Sreepalanji has mentioned in his
                                      > one of his submissions whether there anything in
                                      > this universe which more important and great than
                                      > your soul ? And that Vitraag Jina Dharma surpasses
                                      > all barriers and bias including the divided Jain
                                      > community.
                                      >
                                      > Sincere Michhami Dukkadam if I have said anything
                                      > wrong,
                                      >
                                      > Anish Arun Shah
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Your Friends for Ever
                                      > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Cc: Sreepalan VC
                                      > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 2:35 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Dear Shri Anish Shah & All My Jain Friends,
                                      > Differences when taken in the right direction
                                      > improves every one in the society but when greed
                                      > comes into the same the difference comes to the core
                                      > and the Bonding vanishes.
                                      > "Anyway atleast we are not at each other's throats
                                      > like Shia-Sunni or Catholic-Protestants."
                                      > why have you come to know about them??is because
                                      > the differences grew Bigger and bigger and the
                                      > common Religious Thought of seperation is no more
                                      > expect the benefits of very few who govern the whole
                                      > sect.
                                      > Do you think Allah would like his own followers to
                                      > do this.??or Christ would like to Know this???
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




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                                    • Sreepalan VC
                                      Samyak Darshan Dear Sarvashree Anish Shah, Kamin Shah and other valued participants, Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou,
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 19, 2005
                                        Samyak Darshan

                                        Dear Sarvashree Anish Shah, Kamin Shah and other
                                        valued participants,

                                        Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                                        Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                                        be given.

                                        Sub: Re: [JainList] Jainism
                                        Ref: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:54:26 +0530

                                        Ernest and persuasive submission, it is, and sure the
                                        message could have delivered the crux of the matter.

                                        One important point kaal – time substance on which it
                                        is observed and is inclined to place the following for
                                        the perusal and consideration for the re-examination
                                        by the valued participants.

                                        Division and subdivision in any live society is quite
                                        normal and to wish for its absence or non-appearance
                                        is welcome and is also quite normal and sensible too.
                                        This is the order of the events in the mundane world.

                                        Unity in diversity is the philosophy – doctrine of
                                        Anekaant - of Jinedra Baghavaan and followers in their
                                        zeal and enthusiasm find diversity in unity as the
                                        solution to appease their misplaced ego as rightly
                                        pointed out by you.

                                        Unity is real – nishchaya and diversity is unreal –
                                        vyavahaar. Take for instance any substance - milk, it
                                        is a bundle of qualities i.e., white color, slightly
                                        sweet taste, pasty touch and a smell but no one or not
                                        even the substance itself brought all the qualities
                                        together or bundled to form the milk, is that right?

                                        Only to know the various constituent qualities that
                                        are present in milk such an analysis is made and not
                                        to believe that the color, tough, taste etc., are
                                        present independently and can be separated from milk.
                                        This analysis is vyavhaar.

                                        Here comes the point of kaal on which it is sensed
                                        that a disproportionate weight or importance is given
                                        to it and so disinclined to leave it unattended or
                                        untreated.

                                        Kaal – time substance is an independent and
                                        self-subsisting substance, as you all know. It only
                                        enables or is a nimitta for the knowing and seeing
                                        entity or energy – soul that the flow of happenings or
                                        events is cyclical in the universe and do not induce
                                        or coerce any substance much less soul to follow one
                                        way or the other, any disagreement.

                                        Secondly, the vitraag Jain Sacred Scriptures are also
                                        only enable or is a nimitta for interested one to
                                        study and assimilate, if found rational and
                                        reasonable, but they themselves have no capability to
                                        infuse or force its content on one.

                                        Both are inert dead substances.

                                        Quote:
                                        In 4th era what was possible would be impossible in
                                        5th era.

                                        Analysis;
                                        Anthim Kevalin – the last of the Kevalins of Bharat
                                        Kshetra, Shree Jambuswamy preceded by two other
                                        Kevalins secured Keval Gynaan in 4th kaal – dhushma
                                        sushma – and attained Nirvan or Siddhathva in 5th kaal
                                        – dhushma, the kaal in which you and all of are
                                        living.

                                        So, in 5th kaal Keval Gynaan might not be secured but
                                        if Keval Gynaan is secured in 4th kaal, it can and did
                                        attain Nirvaan in 5th kaal.

                                        Kaal is only a mirror, which reflects the events as it
                                        takes place and certainly it does not bar or stand in
                                        the way of any one to secure samyakthva, if not Keval
                                        Gynaan.

                                        So, if one wishes and wishes that strong to secure
                                        samyakthva leave alone Keval Gynaan, kaal will
                                        definitely display to the world the strength of the
                                        determined and avowed one – soul.

                                        Nonetheless, the point to be borne in mind is that
                                        generally souls which carry in them weakness in
                                        knowing and believing them are only take the human
                                        birth and are born in Bharat Kshetra. Perhaps, this
                                        aspect has been given more emphasis by you.

                                        Well, there is only one point that one has to bear
                                        fast and hard in one’s mind is self – soul - is the
                                        only important and great one for one rest are all
                                        objects of perception to/by soul, including
                                        Thirthankar, and incidental.

                                        Attempt is made to place the information and
                                        understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                                        man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                                        help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                                        Please forgive and forget for any unintentional
                                        excesses that might hurt and it is only fraternal
                                        affinity that goaded to place.

                                        Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                                        Know thyself and be thyself is the essence of the
                                        revelation of Kevalin.

                                        Now for the participants,

                                        Yours brotherly,
                                        sreepalan
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