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Re: Moksha & Niyati - more on bhavya and bhavyathva

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  • mehul_turakhia
    Dear Shreepalanji and friends, Thank you for your observations. Following is the clarifications, which I am posting directly instead of posting to you for
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 1, 2004
      Dear Shreepalanji and friends,
      Thank you for your observations.

      Following is the clarifications, which I am posting directly
      instead of posting to you for general benefit.

      Generally (with certain differences ) the literature of
      Swetambar and digambar traditions are identical, but at commentary
      level and later on differences do exist.

      Hence self try to mention (every time) that my understanding is based
      on swetambar literature as has been mentioned in the present case.
      This is to avoid arguments / discussing on two different lineage.
      However it is definitely good to have comparative studies.

      There are certain similarities in the observations given by you and
      certain variations.

      As the literature/ commentaries differ, I interpret your points as
      addition to my understanding based on your view points/literature
      referred by you.

      Following is the observations

      Point no 1.
      Shreepalanji
      It is simply that there is no end at all and it
      cannot be reached at all and attempting to find an end for the
      endless is just like finding an end to the waves in the sea.

      Endlessness - infinity is understandable really by KEVALIN.

      We can only infer.

      Reply
      Agreed. Only additional literary information available was suggested.


      Point 2.

      Shreepalanji
      It is said that bhavyaas are ananth - infinite, abhavyaas are twice
      that of bhavyaas and so ananthaananth, SIDDHAS are ananth, samsar is
      also ananth etc.
      (Refer shri Thathvaartha surta Ch.2 – sloka 7)

      Reply

      Noted. Only observation is that original text of Tatvarth sutra gives
      only classification as bhavya and abhavya . If I m not mistaken the
      numbers as suggested by you are based on certain commentary . Thus
      this is case of differing literary source. And we accept it is as it
      is.


      It may be noted that Karma granth (swetambar literature ) cites
      bhavyas infinite time more than abhavyas, . I have not been able to
      check with
      Digambar literature like gommatsar (which are identical to karma
      granth in majority as per Pt. Sukhlalji ), tiloya pannati, etc..
      Unfortunately, I do not have access presently.

      Point 3.

      Shreepalanji.

      Yes, bhavyathva of a soul has an end when soul attains liberation –
      Moksha and not for bhavaya souls.
      (Refer Shri Rajavaarthic Ch.10-sloka 3)

      Reply
      Agreed. This is found similar in Pannavana Upang agam, that at
      liberation, bhavyata ends. Certain places sidhha are called no-bhavya-
      no abhavya. Agreed.


      Point 4.

      Shreepalnji,

      Then the question Why are some souls Bhavya, and others Abhavya?

      It is an Aapta Vachan that some souls are Abhavyas,
      others are Bhavyas.

      Reply : noted. The same was explained as Parinamik bhaava as
      understood by me. Parinamik bhaav is mentioned in tatvarth sutra too.

      Point no5.

      Shreepalanji

      That apart, it is not clear how and wherein the principle of anekant
      fits in this juncture of endless bhavyas. Anekant is `vasthu dhrams'


      Reply.
      Anekant was suggested because of two opposing views
      All bhavyas will attain moksha AND
      Samsar will not be devoid of bhavyas.
      Both of which are not possible under normal logic. Hence Under
      Vyavahar naya, unless anekant is there, one cannot reconcile. (
      meaning both are are not true as ekant – only one perspective. But
      true when multiple perspective is taken.

      Imagine a spaceline showing all the bhavya jiva in a sequence of
      going to moksha . This extends upto infinity in future tense.
      Imagine one bhavya ( say B1)on the space line at location say 10
      zillion from present base zero (B-0)

      Base zero B-0, is the present moment of asking the question say date
      1/11/2004 time 15 44 minutes.

      . His turn will come. However there are 100 Zillion bhavyas beyond B1
      whose turn will ALSO come and yet infinite jivas are beyond that .
      If this situation is considered even after infinite pudgal paravartan
      (IPP), the statement is valid in same order, only the base zero(B-0)
      will shift to new base of base infinite pudgal paravartan (B-IPP)


      ( I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT anekant is definitely vastu dharma
      under nishchay naya )So I presume that there is no disagreement.

      Trust I am able to clarify to best of my ability to the variations/
      and agreements .



      General comments apart from shreepalanji's mail, based on swetambar
      literature.

      Praman is one of the means in Jain darshan to achieve all
      encompassing understanding of any object. (can be called BASIS in lay
      language. This is terminology to define as per Anuyog dwar sutra (Mul
      Anga Bahya agam of swetambar literature)
      There are four types of praman.

      1.They are Pratyaksha praman (direct/or physical
      evidence /existence ),
      2 Upama Praman (through simile/ eg),
      3 Anuman praman (inference basis – like inferring fire due to
      presence of smoke etc. ) and
      4 Agam pramana ( through the basis of statements of Agam or aapta
      vachan )

      Since Bhavyata and abhavyata are neither subject of senses etc. it
      cannot be explained from pratyaksha praman NOR we have keval gyan .
      It is difficult to explain directly.

      Examples have their limitations certain time. Hence there is
      difficulty in upama praman. Certain examples have been given like
      lady/ seeds etc. are all to reinforce the understanding. Shreepalanji
      have also cited upama praman. Upama praman of space line –akash
      pradesh shreni – as found in literature is cited.

      Anuman praman is difficult to use in present context, due to arupi
      bhava of bhavyata and abhavyata.

      Earlier positng self had resorted to Agam pramana (as
      citings/reference available in agam statements ) to clarify the
      above topic.
      Different schools of thoughts accept different descriptions as agams/
      aaapt vachana and hence we have variations, which needs to be
      accepted as it is . Also our understanding is a function of
      Kshyompasam of mati shrut gyan . The same should not lead to kashaya
      to understand the concepts of Jainism.

      These are very suksma topics of Jain darshan. Owing to limitations of
      matigyan or understanding error by self etc.,, Sincere m/d if
      anything is written against jain agams.

      Tatva kevali gamya

      Mehul
    • sreepal5058
      Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha. Ref: Sat 01st Nov.2004. Thank you very much for perusing the
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 5, 2004
        Samyak Darshan

        Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia,

        Let soul secure samyakthva.

        Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha.
        Ref: Sat 01st Nov.2004.

        Thank you very much for perusing the submission and favoring your
        valued observations and comments.

        Candid indeed you are and felt that the thoughts expressed are borne
        out of sincere faith in the Dharma that you had adopted and
        following.

        Right you are that differences ought to exit as the very name
        suggests that one is space clad and the other is white cloth clad.

        That apart, on the explanation on Anekant the following are placed
        for perusal.

        Quote:
        "Anekant was suggested because of two opposing views
        All bhavyas will attain moksha AND
        Samsar will not be devoid of bhavyas.
        Both of which are not possible under normal logic. Hence Under
        Vyavahar naya, unless anekant is there, one cannot reconcile. (
        meaning both are are not true as ekant – only one perspective. But
        true when multiple perspective is taken."

        Analysis:
        Anekant and Syadwaad:
        Anekant is the structural nature of the six substances that
        constitutes this universe and syadwaad is the language to explain it.
        Dharma referred to in this context is not be mistaken to the dharma
        or the qualities of substances and that is why the nature here is
        qualified with the word `structural'. This is unchanging
        couplets – ugals – of contradictory characteristics and has no
        paryaayas for this dharma. Since dharma – quality of substance is
        independent and is single with ceaseless paryaayaas, whereas anekant
        dharma is different.

        Permanency and impermanence, general and particular, one and many,
        special and ordinary, functional and non functional etc., are few to
        quote. These couplets are inseparable and infinitely remain as
        couplets – ugals.

        It is precisely the security fort for the substances.

        On the bhavyathva of the soul is concerned it is from the beginning
        less time and shall be so till the soul secures liberation ie.,
        encashment of bhavyathva into liberation. Since the number of souls
        even if it is infinite it is unalterable so when all the bhavya
        souls will attain liberation and yet there will be bhvyas is
        baffling.

        Well it is one's choice.

        Honestly, it is beyond my comprehension to make out and perhaps more
        study is required.

        Right you are in pronouncing that in the discussion table - a
        learning process - kashaya – passion has no place and its
        occurrence if at all, has to be buried for it saps the very purpose
        of this process of learning.

        Besides it is more important that assertions are to be understood
        from respective points of view – nayas viz., dhravyaarthic and
        paryaarthic and not in absolute terms wherever necessary.

        Thanks once again in throwing an opportunity to revise the subject.

        Truth is Kevalin and rest is mine.

        "Know thyself and be thyself' is of Kevalin, by Kevalin and
        for Kevalin.

        Now for the participants,

        Yours brotherly,
        Sreepalan



        --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "mehul_turakhia"
        <mehul_turakhia@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Shreepalanji and friends,
        > Thank you for your observations.
        >
        > Following is the clarifications, which I am posting directly
        > instead of posting to you for general benefit.
        >
        > Generally (with certain differences ) the literature of
        > Swetambar and digambar traditions are identical, but at commentary
        > level and later on differences do exist.
        >
        > Hence self try to mention (every time) that my understanding is
        based
        > on swetambar literature as has been mentioned in the present case.
        > This is to avoid arguments / discussing on two different lineage.
        > However it is definitely good to have comparative studies.
        >
        > There are certain similarities in the observations given by you
        and
        > certain variations.
        >
        > As the literature/ commentaries differ, I interpret your points
        as
        > addition to my understanding based on your view points/literature
        > referred by you.
        >
        > Following is the observations
        >
        > Point no 1.
        > Shreepalanji
        > It is simply that there is no end at all and it
        > cannot be reached at all and attempting to find an end for the
        > endless is just like finding an end to the waves in the sea.
        >
        > Endlessness - infinity is understandable really by KEVALIN.
        >
        > We can only infer.
        >
        > Reply
        > Agreed. Only additional literary information available was
        suggested.
        >
        >
        > Point 2.
        >
        > Shreepalanji
        > It is said that bhavyaas are ananth - infinite, abhavyaas are twice
        > that of bhavyaas and so ananthaananth, SIDDHAS are ananth, samsar
        is
        > also ananth etc.
        > (Refer shri Thathvaartha surta Ch.2 – sloka 7)
        >
        > Reply
        >
        > Noted. Only observation is that original text of Tatvarth sutra
        gives
        > only classification as bhavya and abhavya . If I m not mistaken
        the
        > numbers as suggested by you are based on certain commentary . Thus
        > this is case of differing literary source. And we accept it is as
        it
        > is.
        >
        >
        > It may be noted that Karma granth (swetambar literature ) cites
        > bhavyas infinite time more than abhavyas, . I have not been able
        to
        > check with
        > Digambar literature like gommatsar (which are identical to karma
        > granth in majority as per Pt. Sukhlalji ), tiloya pannati, etc..
        > Unfortunately, I do not have access presently.
        >
        > Point 3.
        >
        > Shreepalanji.
        >
        > Yes, bhavyathva of a soul has an end when soul attains liberation
        –
        > Moksha and not for bhavaya souls.
        > (Refer Shri Rajavaarthic Ch.10-sloka 3)
        >
        > Reply
        > Agreed. This is found similar in Pannavana Upang agam, that at
        > liberation, bhavyata ends. Certain places sidhha are called no-
        bhavya-
        > no abhavya. Agreed.
        >
        >
        > Point 4.
        >
        > Shreepalnji,
        >
        > Then the question Why are some souls Bhavya, and others Abhavya?
        >
        > It is an Aapta Vachan that some souls are Abhavyas,
        > others are Bhavyas.
        >
        > Reply : noted. The same was explained as Parinamik bhaava as
        > understood by me. Parinamik bhaav is mentioned in tatvarth sutra
        too.
        >
        > Point no5.
        >
        > Shreepalanji
        >
        > That apart, it is not clear how and wherein the principle of
        anekant
        > fits in this juncture of endless bhavyas. Anekant is `vasthu
        dhrams'
        >
        >
        > Reply.
        > Anekant was suggested because of two opposing views
        > All bhavyas will attain moksha AND
        > Samsar will not be devoid of bhavyas.
        > Both of which are not possible under normal logic. Hence Under
        > Vyavahar naya, unless anekant is there, one cannot reconcile. (
        > meaning both are are not true as ekant – only one perspective.
        But
        > true when multiple perspective is taken.
        >
        > Imagine a spaceline showing all the bhavya jiva in a sequence of
        > going to moksha . This extends upto infinity in future tense.
        > Imagine one bhavya ( say B1)on the space line at location say 10
        > zillion from present base zero (B-0)
        >
        > Base zero B-0, is the present moment of asking the question say
        date
        > 1/11/2004 time 15 44 minutes.
        >
        > . His turn will come. However there are 100 Zillion bhavyas beyond
        B1
        > whose turn will ALSO come and yet infinite jivas are beyond
        that .
        > If this situation is considered even after infinite pudgal
        paravartan
        > (IPP), the statement is valid in same order, only the base zero(B-
        0)
        > will shift to new base of base infinite pudgal paravartan (B-IPP)
        >
        >
        > ( I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU THAT anekant is definitely vastu dharma
        > under nishchay naya )So I presume that there is no disagreement.
        >
        > Trust I am able to clarify to best of my ability to the
        variations/
        > and agreements .
        >
        >
        >
        > General comments apart from shreepalanji's mail, based on
        swetambar
        > literature.
        >
        > Praman is one of the means in Jain darshan to achieve all
        > encompassing understanding of any object. (can be called BASIS in
        lay
        > language. This is terminology to define as per Anuyog dwar sutra
        (Mul
        > Anga Bahya agam of swetambar literature)
        > There are four types of praman.
        >
        > 1.They are Pratyaksha praman (direct/or physical
        > evidence /existence ),
        > 2 Upama Praman (through simile/ eg),
        > 3 Anuman praman (inference basis – like inferring fire due to
        > presence of smoke etc. ) and
        > 4 Agam pramana ( through the basis of statements of Agam or aapta
        > vachan )
        >
        > Since Bhavyata and abhavyata are neither subject of senses etc. it
        > cannot be explained from pratyaksha praman NOR we have keval
        gyan .
        > It is difficult to explain directly.
        >
        > Examples have their limitations certain time. Hence there is
        > difficulty in upama praman. Certain examples have been given like
        > lady/ seeds etc. are all to reinforce the understanding.
        Shreepalanji
        > have also cited upama praman. Upama praman of space line –akash
        > pradesh shreni – as found in literature is cited.
        >
        > Anuman praman is difficult to use in present context, due to
        arupi
        > bhava of bhavyata and abhavyata.
        >
        > Earlier positng self had resorted to Agam pramana (as
        > citings/reference available in agam statements ) to clarify the
        > above topic.
        > Different schools of thoughts accept different descriptions as
        agams/
        > aaapt vachana and hence we have variations, which needs to be
        > accepted as it is . Also our understanding is a function of
        > Kshyompasam of mati shrut gyan . The same should not lead to
        kashaya
        > to understand the concepts of Jainism.
        >
        > These are very suksma topics of Jain darshan. Owing to limitations
        of
        > matigyan or understanding error by self etc.,, Sincere m/d if
        > anything is written against jain agams.
        >
        > Tatva kevali gamya
        >
        > Mehul
      • sreepal5058
        Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha. Ref: Sat 01st Nov.2004. In continuation of the submission on
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 5, 2004
          Samyak Darshan

          Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia,

          Let soul secure samyakthva.

          Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha.
          Ref: Sat 01st Nov.2004.

          In continuation of the submission on 5th Nov on the above mentioned
          piece of philosophy the following is also placed for your valued
          perusal.

          It is felt on deeper thinking on the information provided for in
          your submission, it struck that it may deserve to go through once
          again and the following is observed.

          01)
          The assertion purported to be of Baghavaan Mahavir Swamy's and
          quoted in your submission in reply to shravika is culled out
          from `Bhagawati Ang agam' perhaps a Prathamanuyog scripture and
          therefore, what Baghavaan Vir said may be right, if the question was
          whether all the Bhavya Jivas will be eligible to attain Moksha as
          against `whether all the Bhavya Jiva will attain Moksha'. By
          this rephrasing the question, it satisfies all logic.

          Anecdotes culled out from Prathamaanuyog carry and present several
          perceptions mostly based on the readers' interest and mental
          condition at the time of reading.

          Choice is one's with willing suspension of disbelief.

          02)
          Quote:
          "Also our understanding is a function of Kshyompasam of mati
          shrut gyan. These are very suksma topics of Jain darshan. Owing to
          limitations of matigyan or understanding error by self etc."

          Analysis:
          Shrutha gyanan – bhaava shruttha gynaan is the only source that
          leads one to securing samyakthva on to Keval Gynaan and unfolds
          Moksha. And all those who had attained Nirvaan, all those who are in
          the path of Nirvaan and all those who will attain Nirvaan have only
          bhaava shruta gynaan as the source to Moksha as the other finer
          developments viz., avadhi and manaparyaa gynaanas are of no avail to
          secure Keval Gynaan, agreed.

          Then Shri Thatvaarth Sutra explains that
          "Shrutham matipurvam duyenakadvadasabhedam" (Chapter -01 and
          sutra -20)
          and it means scriptural knowledge preceded by sensory knowledge is
          of two kinds, which are of twelve and many subdivisions.

          So the limitations to understand thathvas – truths referred to
          could possibly due to the ashraddha – weakness in the faith of
          one's soul which added to that asthirtha – instability in conduct
          delays the manifestation of the qualities of bhavya soul.

          Secondly, if all the thathvas - truths could be understood only by
          Kevalin – Omnisicient, then the appearance of shruatha Kevalins
          detailed and accepted in our sacred scriptures becomes untrue. None
          the less there are thathvas which are Kevali gammya – known to only
          omniscient. But you will agree that they are mostly relating to
          ajiva dhravyas - non conscious substances, the knowledge of which is
          only to identify and discard them as they are of no avail to secure
          Samyakthva, Keval gynaan and Nirvaan for an aspirant soul.

          Besides, it is more important that assertions are to be understood
          from respective points of view – nayas viz., dhravyaarthic and
          paryaarthic and not in absolute terms wherever necessary.

          Truth is Kevalin and rest is mine.

          "Know thyself and be thyself' is of Kevalin, by Kevalin and
          for
          Kevalin.

          Now for the participants,

          Yours brotherly,
          Sreepalan


          --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "mehul_turakhia"
          <mehul_turakhia@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Shreepalanji and friends,
          > Thank you for your observations.
          >
          > Following is the clarifications, which I am posting directly
          > instead of posting to you for general benefit.
          >
          > Generally (with certain differences ) the literature of
          > Swetambar and digambar traditions are identical, but at commentary
          > level and later on differences do exist.
          >
          > Hence self try to mention (every time) that my understanding is
          based
          > on swetambar literature as has been mentioned in the present case.
          > This is to avoid arguments / discussing on two different lineage.
          > However it is definitely good to have comparative studies.
          >
          > There are certain similarities in the observations given by you
          and
          > certain variations.
          >
          > As
        • mehul_turakhia
          Dear Shreepalanji and friends. Jai Jinendra Thanks for the comments and your straight forwardness -(saralta) in reflections. It is indeed a great source of
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 6, 2004
            Dear Shreepalanji and friends.

            Jai Jinendra

            Thanks for the comments and your straight forwardness -(saralta) in
            reflections. It is indeed a great source of inspiration and
            appreciation for all of us.

            Following is some additional information based on swetambar agams,
            just re-inforcing your views and statements. .

            shreepalanji wrote
            > Right you are in pronouncing that in the discussion table - a
            > learning process - kashaya – passion has no place and its
            > occurrence if at all, has to be buried for it saps the very purpose
            > of this process of learning.
            >

            It is found in agams like Pannavana upang agams, that this jiva has
            been in the 9 greveyak devloka ( One very high category of develoka
            as per Jain Cosmology) infinite times in the past. In fact has been
            at all the places except anuttar develoka.

            It is also found in agams that Jiva goes to this kind of develoka due
            to very high degree of ascetisms, and pure leshyas and adhyavashaya
            (bhaava of atma ) and purity in actions equivalent to Gautam swami
            (in lay language ) and similar anagars (saints).

            When both these statements are combined and believe that both ARE
            TRUE , one wonders that , why the jiva is still in the samsar.

            It is indeed true that purity in actions are necessary. However,
            it is very important to fight against Kashayas which are the root
            cause of Samsar.(Kash - is samsar and Aya is income /benefit, meaning
            that the action which gives the benefit of samsar is Kashaya. . )
            This jiva could have learned upto 9 purva knowledge in the past and
            taken samyam (saint hood ) in the past and followed with very high
            degree of purity, but due to lack of belief, or presence of kashaya,
            it has not ended the samsar. Hence higher the concentrations on such
            actions, better and faster the benefit.

            Sincere m/d if anything is written against jain agams.

            Mehul

            Legends
            Kashaya : Anger, pride, deceit and lobha greediness - the root cause
            of cycle of life and birth as per Jain canonical literature.




            --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "sreepal5058" <sreepal5058@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Samyak Darshan
            >
            > Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia,
            >
            > Let soul secure samyakthva.
            >
            > Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha.
            > Ref: Sat 01st Nov.2004.
            >
            > Thank you very much for perusing the submission and favoring your
            > valued observations and comments.
          • rushabh_jainlist
            Dear participants, Jai jinendra. Hallowed are the kevalins. A year ago, Shri Sreepalan and Shri Mehul Turakhia made an interesting ... I would like to know
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 4, 2005
              Dear participants,

              Jai jinendra. Hallowed are the kevalins.

              A year ago, Shri Sreepalan and Shri Mehul Turakhia made an interesting
              observation about bhavya and abhavya souls (see full text below):

              > It is an Aapta Vachan that some souls are Abhavyas,
              > others are Bhavyas.

              I would like to know what "aapta vachan" is and why that should answer
              the question about the existence of abhavya and bhavya souls.

              It seems somewhat contradictory that there can be two different types
              of souls when it is agreed that each and every soul share the same
              qualities. This apparent contradiction seems to be magnified by the
              inability of abhavya souls to secure samyakthva for eternity. The
              example provided to describe this phenomenon was that of a sterile
              seed vs. non-sterile seed. But that raises another question: What is
              the purpose of having these two "types" of souls? Was it
              randomness? Was it because of some type of karma? Thanks in advance
              for your response.

              - Rushabh Sheth



              --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "sreepal5058" <sreepal5058@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Samyak Darshan
              >
              > Dear Shri Mehul Turakhia and Shri Pankaj Jain,
              >
              > Let soul secure samyakthva.
              >
              > Sub: Bhavya suol and Moksha.
              > Ref: Sat 29th Oct. 2004.
              >
              > Nice to hear that `every bhavya will attain Moksha' but there are
              > innumerous bhavya souls remain as bhavyas for ever. The question
              > that by the passage of time a day will encounter no bhavya soul by
              > Shravika is natural corollary.
              >
              > The same is explained hereunder:
              >
              > 29th Oct. 2004
              > Quote: Shri Mehul Turakhia:
              >
              > "It is found in Bhagawati Ang agam that , Jayanti Shravika
              > asks Mahavir swami, whether all the Bhavya Jiva will attain Moksha.
              > The reply is affirmative . After that she asks if that happens ,
              > whether the loka will be devoid of Bhavya jiva. The reply is
              > negative. Later , the clarification given is that it is like Akash
              > pradesh shreni. Just as if we keep on counting each pradesh (space
              > molecule) on the space line, the turn of all pradesh will come, and
              > yet there are infinite pradesh beyond the one which is being counted,
              > similarly all Bhavya jiva will attain moksha. This is more to be
              > interpreted from anekant as mentioned earlier. But this axiom
              > defines the continuity of Loka with samsari jiva as well as
              > continuitiy of attainment of Moksha in infinite future tense and yet
              > no end of loka. This is actual nature of universe ."
              >
              > "your point is correct, every bhavya jiva will have to attain
              > samyaktva before attaining moksh, there is no dispute to that."
              >
              > Reply:
              > Before we get into the crux of the issue let us have some
              > preliminaries cleared.
              >
              > Sankya - countable, asankya - countless, and ananth - endless /
              > infinite.
              > These are the words used to signify the quantity by number.
              >
              > Well, Jina Dharma is endless what is the understanding of the
              > word `endless'. It is simply that there is no end at all and it
              > cannot be reached at all and attempting to find an end for the
              > endless is just like finding an end to the waves in the sea.
              >
              > Endlessness - infinity is understandable really by KEVALIN.
              >
              > We can only infer.
              >
              > It is said that bhavyaas are ananth - infinite, abhavyaas are twice
              > that of bhavyaas and so ananthaananth, SIDDHAS are ananth, samsar is
              > also ananth etc.
              > (Refer shri Thathvaartha surta Ch.2 – sloka 7)
              >
              > So shravika's doubt that in the universe one day there would not be
              > any
              > one bhavya, may appear to be logical but really not so. It could be
              > applied only in the case of sankya - countable and asankya -
              > countless and not to ananth - infinity.
              >
              > The doors of securing samyakthva will stand closed if the bhavyas
              > number is brought to nil which again is against the revelations of
              > Thirthankar Baghavan.
              >
              > Yes, bhavyathva of a soul has an end when soul attains liberation –
              > Moksha and not for bhavaya souls.
              > (Refer Shri Rajavaarthic Ch.10-sloka 3)
              >
              > There are many kshetras wherein there is continuous 4th kaal and
              > continuous presence of Kevalin viz., vidheha kshetra. So if bhavyas
              > are one day to be out of stock, then how this phenomenon is possible
              > in view of the unfathomable past that has gone by. Shedding of
              > karma – nirjara, and stoppage of karma – samvara, and attainment of
              > liberation – moksha are truths – thathvas and revelation of
              > Thirthankara. Hence all would become non existent if the above
              > proposition of no stock of bhavyas at any point of time.
              > (Refer Shri Thathvaartha Sutra Ch.-1 sloka -4)
              >
              > So there cannot be an end to JINA DHRAMA as well as the followers of
              > JINA.
              >
              > The example suggested no doubt explains the cyclical nature of
              > events and not the continuance of the three categories of soul viz.,
              > which never finds end viz., jivathava – soul, bhavyathva – capable
              > of manifesting samyakthva and abhavyathva – not capable of
              > manifesting samyakthva. And that is what the question seeks to be
              > explained.
              >
              > On the capacities of the soul are concerned, all souls are equal and
              > there is no difference in the qualities.
              >
              > Then the question
              > Why are some souls Bhavya, and others Abhavya?
              >
              > It is an Aapta Vachan that some souls are Abhavyas,
              > others are Bhavyas.
              >
              > Rightly said that it is Apta vachan and an example is also provided.
              >
              > Perhaps the examples from the agamas may help to better the
              > understanding.
              >
              > 01) The example given is a sterile woman. A woman is a woman in all
              > respects, be she sterile or otherwise. But sterile woman cannot by
              > any stretch of imagination bear a child. That is why she is called
              > sterile.
              > 02) Second example given is that all the seeds thrown into field do
              > not sprout and grow into plants but all the seeds are seeds with all
              > the qualities of seed.
              >
              > Again rightly pointed out that an abhavya does not posses the
              > capability to secure samyaktha - right faith, right knowledge and
              > right conduct and therefore though in all respects he appears to be
              > human he does not posses the capability of securing even the first
              > step - samyakthva.
              >
              > In respect of bhabvya who remains endlessly unsuccessful in his
              > capability to manifest samyakthva, venerable sacred Digamber Jain
              > scriptures explain it as the golden treasure underneath Mount Meru.
              > And what use to any one of such a treasure is anyone's imagination
              > and such is the capability of the dhoor dhooraanu bhavya.
              >
              > The lesson one has to draw from this is that our immediate efforts
              > to be to work / attempt to secure at least samyakthva in this most
              > rare human birth which we are all having now, with out any loss of
              > time.
              >
              > And to secure samyakthva, one has to pursue swadhyaaya and be as
              > much as possible in sat sangh. Above all, to put it in a lay man's
              > language, to save oneself from
              > 01) agynaan (ignorance of the self),
              > 02) abaksh (abstain from consuming impure food) and
              > 03) annyaaya (abstain from unfairness /unjustness to oneself).
              >
              > That apart, it is not clear how and wherein the principle of anekant
              > fits in this juncture of endless bhavyas. Anekant is `vasthu dhrams'
              > - structural nature of substance i.e., the natural existence of
              > opposing qualities as security for the substance. For example one
              > and many, is and is not, ordinary and special, functioning and non
              > functioning, permanent and impermanent etc., are the few to quote.
              >
              > Besides it is more important that assertions are to be understood
              > from respective points of view – nayas viz., dhravyaarthic and
              > paryaarthic and not in absolute terms wherever necessary.
              >
              > Truth is Kevalin and rest is mine.
              >
              > "Know thyself and be thyself' is of Kevalin, by Kevalin and for
              > Kevalin.
              >
              > Now for the participants,
              >
              > Yours brotherly,
              > Sreepalan
              >
              >
              > --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "mehul_turakhia"
              > <mehul_turakhia@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Dear Pankajji,
              > > your point is correct,
              > > every bhavya jiva will have to attain samyaktva before attaining
              > > moksh, there is no dispute to that.
              > > mehul
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "mehul_turakhia"
              > > <mehul_turakhia@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Dear Pankajji and friends,
              > > > Jai Jinendra.
              > > >
              > > > Thank you for your acknowledgment.
              > > > Here are further additions.
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > >>
              > > > 2. It is found in Bhagawati Ang agam that , Jayanti Shravika
              > > > asks Mahavir swami, whether all the Bhavya Jiva will attain
              > Moksha.
              > > > The reply is affirmative . After that she asks if that happens ,
              > > > whether the loka will be devoid of Bhavya jiva. The reply is
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > But this axiom
              > > > defines the continuity of Loka with samsari jiva as well as
              > > > continuitiy of attainment of Moksha in infinite future tense and
              > > yet
              > > > no end of loka. This is actual nature of universe .
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Sincere m/d if anything is written against Jain Agams
              > > >
              > > > Mehul
              > > >
              > > >> > pankaj
            • mehul_turakhia
              ... interesting ... answer ... types Dear Rishabji and friends, Here are some thoughts based on my understanding on above subject from swetambar perspective/
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 14, 2005
                -- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "rushabh_jainlist" <sheth@r...> wrote:
                > Dear participants,
                >
                > Jai jinendra. Hallowed are the kevalins.
                >
                > A year ago, Shri Sreepalan and Shri Mehul Turakhia made an
                interesting
                > observation about bhavya and abhavya souls (see full text below):
                >
                > > It is an Aapta Vachan that some souls are Abhavyas,
                > > others are Bhavyas.
                >
                > I would like to know what "aapta vachan" is and why that should
                answer
                > the question about the existence of abhavya and bhavya souls.
                >
                > It seems somewhat contradictory that there can be two different
                types



                Dear Rishabji and friends,

                Here are some thoughts based on my understanding on above
                subject from swetambar perspective/ literature.

                BHAVYATA


                As per swetambar literature, bhavyata and abhavyata are parinamic
                bhaav, which are not caused by karma. It is not a cause of any past
                deeds but by swabhav (nature of universe) ref. Bhagawati ang agam.
                There are a couple of mails earlier on similar clarifications in
                jainlist.


                APTA VACHAN

                ( This is slightly technical topic, hence a brief reading on jain
                agams from Jainworld web site/ similar web sites is understood as pre
                requisite for better understanding. )

                This issue is addressed from generic point instead of only bhavyata
                issue.
                Apta vachan is generally taken as vachan of kevali. Different sects
                have different definitions of apta vachan or different domains to
                qualify contents of apta vachan. This is one of the reasons of
                different belief based differences apart from ritual/
                interpretational differences. (32 agams – sthanakwasi or sadhu margi
                and terapanthi / 45 agams – deravasi or mandirmargi / Reverenend
                text like Shatkhandagam and other texts for digambar )

                Peripheral contents can have other inclusions like
                commentaries/ later texts
                order of acceptance/
                parampara belief/
                acceptance by senior monks due to virtue of non contradictions to
                above texts.

                One can broadly classify apta vachan into four categories. This kind
                of classification are found first time in the literary swetambar
                history by Arya Rakshit a very knowledgeable acharya in his works
                of "Prabhavak charitra" . AS per famous pattavalis ( lineage ) like
                vallabhi and Mathuri pattavali he is placed at 19 or 20, where as P.
                Devardhi gani acharya (Acharya under whose guidance agams were
                written first) is placed at 32. As a note of caution, many views
                exist on pattavalis. Incidentally it is Arya Rakshit, who compiled
                the reverend text of Anuyog dwar sutra from knowledge of purva. This
                is very important mul agam. Many present Jain micro mathematics
                interpretations, mensuration interpretations emanate from here apart
                from skeleton of Anekantvad.

                The four categories are

                1, on basic philosophy, metaphysics, dravyanuyog
                2, on mathematics, ganitanuyog
                3, on stories based on agam vachna, dharma kathanuyog
                4, on practices and do's and don'ts charan karanuyog. The titles are
                as per swetambar practice.

                In swetambar side, 1,2,3 are more or less standard and identical. The
                variations exist in fourth due to interpretation of practice,
                interpretation on definition of samvar and nirjara and variations in
                stories in item 3 based on interpretation of item 4.

                The variations in todays practice are in item 4. Ang Agams also
                clarify how to approach this kind of issues and hence same is
                reproduced for benefit of understanding.

                The order of acceptance of Vyavahar / do's and don'ts , as per
                Bhagwati ang agam is
                1. Agam Vyavahar (here vyavahar means basis of activity /
                actions / do's and don'ts ) based on agams which are accepted.
                2. Sutra vyavahar (other important texts under conformity to 1
                above)
                3. Agna vyavahar ( desire of gitaarth knowledgeable elder monks
                based on dravya kshetra kaal bhaav – under conformity to 1,2 above)
                4. Dharna vyavahar (parampara / past practice based on
                knowledgeable saints /past beliefs under over all conformity to above
                1,2,3)
                5. Jeet vyavahar ( overall code of conduct derived by gitaarth
                knowledgeable monks based on overall conformity to Jain tenets and
                all 4 above. )

                It may be noted only on absence of clarifications from earlier source
                in the above list of 5 , one has to resort to later source. The Do's
                and don't and practice/ change are very discretionary issues. This
                needs a lot of maturity, caution, what if scenario analysis , future
                integrity and safety of jain sashan , vinay and other qualities to
                quantify / classify on the part of interpreter.

                However the sad part of whole issue it, many have attemptd
                interpretations based on available knowledge, immediate short term
                solutions, and hence more variations keep on adding to present
                practices. Then there are additions based on ekant logic also .

                Apart from above, the majority of existing differences in practice by
                different sects, hover around ritualistic interpretations which stem
                out from literature which are only few centuries old in origin from
                present times.

                Sincere m/d if anything is written against jain agams.

                Mehul
              • Sreepalan VC
                Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Rushabh Sheth Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall be given. Sub: [JainList] What is
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 15, 2005
                  Samyak Darshan

                  Dear Shri Rushabh Sheth

                  Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                  Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                  be given.

                  Sub: [JainList] What is Aapta Vachan? (question
                  related to bhavya and abhavya souls)
                  Ref: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:35:19 -0000

                  Sorry for the delayed response and it is sheer
                  oversight that delayed and wish that you will please
                  bear with.

                  Thanks for the perusal of the submission and throwing
                  an opportunity to remain in swadhyaaya.

                  The apparent contradiction, which is exercising your
                  thinking, is welcome. And the reply has been made and
                  you have also quoted them. Therefore the contradiction
                  is non-existent.

                  However the meaning of Apta Vachan is the revelation
                  of Thirthankar’s Dhivya Dhoni heard by Gandhar Muni
                  and conveyed to all the living beings.

                  Let us examine your statements:

                  Quote:
                  It seems somewhat contradictory that there can be two
                  different types
                  of souls when it is agreed that each and every soul
                  share the same
                  qualities. This apparent contradiction seems to be
                  magnified by the
                  inability of abhavya souls to secure samyakthva for
                  eternity. The
                  example provided to describe this phenomenon was that
                  of a sterile
                  seed vs. non-sterile seed.

                  Analysis:
                  A sterile woman and barren seed are facts of life and
                  are given to high light the point that substance –
                  here soul - has all the qualities but it cannot know
                  and see its own qualities at any point of time from
                  the beginning less past to the endless future. This is
                  known and seen of souls in Keval Gynaan of Thirthankar
                  and it has come in His Dhivya Dhoni.


                  Quote:
                  But that raises another question: What is the purpose
                  of having these two "types" of souls? Was it
                  randomness? Was it because of some type of karma?

                  Analysis:
                  How could the purpose of the existence of sterile
                  woman and barren seed be explained? It is the nature
                  of substance as known and seen by Kevalin – Apta.

                  In the case of soul of a sterile woman it is her own
                  making in the past but her sterility may go away by
                  judicious application in life by her discriminatory
                  knowledge. Further more woman hood is a temporary
                  phenomenon whereas the bhavyathva or abhavyatha or
                  jeevathva or unchanging characteristics of soul.

                  The example is only high light the point.

                  Interesting point in your question is that truly
                  reveals such doubts and questions arise only in a
                  bhavya jeeva and not in abhavya jeeva. Karma has no
                  say in this. If karma has a say, then soul will
                  undergo rise, subsidence, destruction or destruction
                  cum subsidence.

                  And if one’s interest in one is sincere and certain,
                  know thyself and be thyself, which is the essence of
                  the revelation of Kevalin

                  Attempt is made to place the information and
                  understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                  man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                  help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                  Please forgive and forget for any unintentional
                  excesses that might hurt and it is only fraternal
                  affinity that goaded to place.

                  Wishing you all your efforts for the early dawn of
                  samyakthva.

                  Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                  Now for the participants,

                  Yours brotherly,
                  Sreepalan
                • Anish Shah
                  Jai Jinendra, My doubts regarding Bhavyata of a soul are similar to that of Rushabh. It has been said for all the souls in our scriptures :- 1.. All the souls
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 16, 2005
                    Jai Jinendra, My doubts regarding Bhavyata of a soul are similar to that of Rushabh.

                    It has been said for all the souls in our scriptures :-
                    1.. All the souls including Mundane (Sansarik) Souls are intrinsically pure and crystal clear but, it is obstructed and bonded by various Karmas.
                    2.. All Souls possess Consciuosness (Chetana), Perception (Darshan) and Knowledge (Gnana); even the strongest of the Karmas cannot fully obstruct these qualities in the lowliest of the life forms. Hence, it is said that, there is no difference in the soul of nigod with that of a Kevali.
                    3.. All soul can modify and control the influence of the karmas in its possession. Jain doctorine supports "Purushartha and efforts". It is not a Niyativad or a fatalastic doctorine that - everything is pre-destined to happen.
                    But at loggerheads with the above, seems to be the doctorine of "Bhavyatva", which, has a touch of fatalism and pre-destiny to it, atleast for a non-bhavya soul. Liberation or Moksha is denied to a non-bhavya soul. However, it has a capability to modify its karma and attain heavens, but not salvation. Why it is so, it is not reasoned, but simply explained as Aapta Vachan.

                    This is one doctorine in Jainism, which, seems to be irrational and contradictory, but is to be taken on faith.

                    Michhami Dukkadam, if anything is contrary to the teachings of the Kevalis .

                    Anish Shah
                  • Sreepalan VC
                    Samyak Darshan Dear Shri Ansih Shah, Shri Rushab shah and Shri Shan Parisa, Let soul secure Samyakthva. Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 22, 2005
                      Samyak Darshan

                      Dear Shri Ansih Shah, Shri Rushab shah and Shri Shan
                      Parisa,

                      Let soul secure Samyakthva.
                      Knock thou, thou shall be heard, ask thou, thou shall
                      be given.

                      Sub: Re: [JainList] What is Aapta Vachan? (question
                      related to bhavya and abhavya souls)
                      Ref: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 01:23:40 +0530

                      Welcome and thanks again for redesigning the question
                      and presenting. Doubtless those thoughts do percolate
                      incessantly as this is an unthreaded path and
                      necessarily frequent application is necessitated.

                      Now let us analyze the statements:
                      Quote:
                      1.. All the souls including Mundane (Sansarik) Souls
                      are intrinsically pure and crystal clear but, it is
                      obstructed and bonded by various Karmas.

                      Analysis:
                      Right you are from the vyavaaric point of view and
                      from nischaya point of view it remains pure and clear
                      always. Or otherwise how can it bring out its purity
                      in vyavahaaric state or paryaaya of Keval Gynaani
                      /Siddha. What is in godown can only come to showroom.

                      In mundane stage no-karmic body, karmic body, and
                      thejas body cover soul. In liberated stage such bodies
                      are vacated.

                      Quote:
                      2.. All Souls possess Consciuosness (Chetana),
                      Perception (Darshan) and Knowledge (Gnana); even the
                      strongest of the Karmas cannot fully obstruct these
                      qualities in the lowliest of the life forms. Hence, it
                      is said that, there is no difference in the soul of
                      nigod with that of a Kevali.

                      Analysis:
                      Truly expressed the nischaya view of Vitraag Jina
                      Dharma.

                      Quote:
                      3.. All soul can modify and control the influence of
                      the karmas in its possession. Jain doctorine supports
                      "Purushartha and efforts". It is not a Niyativad or a
                      fatalastic doctorine that - everything is pre-destined
                      to happen.

                      Analysis:
                      Here enters the failure to reckon soul and matter with
                      their respective natural function and qualities.

                      Soul cannot modify or control either the karmas or
                      it’s functioning. These two are different and
                      independent substances. No one-substance can meddle
                      with or act on any other substances is the doctrine of
                      independence of substances as per vitraag Jina Dharma,
                      agreed or not.

                      Soul can act or control or use its purusharth –
                      capability only in its area – soul and not on/in any
                      other substance. Similarly its application is to other
                      5 kinds of substances too.

                      The statements such as “All soul can modify and
                      control the influence of the karmas in its possession”
                      are vyavahaaric and are customary to find in very many
                      places in vitraag Jina Dharma. It is for one to
                      diagnose its relevance as vyavahaar or nischya
                      depending upon the place and context.

                      When the thought activities of soul are natural and
                      hence pure, the adhesive paste of illusion, liking and
                      disliking – moha, raaga and dhvesha are absent and
                      hence the inflow – asrava, bondage – bandha, is
                      stopped – samwara, and shedding of karma – nirjara are
                      taking place in the karmana sarira of its own accord
                      very naturally.

                      Eg: - Rain causes sprouting of grass is vyavahaaric
                      statement as sprouting of grass is the independent
                      action of the seed of the grass and fall of rain is
                      equally an independent action of another substance.
                      There is nimitta nymittiga sambanda

                      Quote:
                      But at loggerheads with the above, seems to be the
                      doctorine of "Bhavyatva", which, has a touch of
                      fatalism and pre-destiny to it, atleast for a
                      non-bhavya soul. Liberation or Moksha is denied to a
                      non-bhavya soul. However, it has a capability to
                      modify its karma and attain heavens, but not
                      salvation. Why it is so, it is not reasoned, but
                      simply explained as Aapta Vachan.

                      Analysis:
                      There is no ‘loggerhead’ in the doctrine of vitraag
                      Jina Dharma but it patently lies on one’s
                      understanding of the doctrine. It is the very nature
                      of certain souls, which cannot manifest its own
                      qualities just like certain barren seeds or sterile
                      woman. How would any one explain the barrenness of the
                      seed or the sterility of a woman or even neuter gender
                      (ali) of a human being?

                      Next is niyativad, which is equated to fatalism and
                      again the defect lies in understanding and not in the
                      doctrine. How?

                      The entire substances and its beginning less to
                      endless modifications – paryaays are exhibiting
                      ceaselessly unmindful of any one sees or sees not,
                      right?

                      And equally the knowing and seeing – upayoga - of the
                      Keval Gynaani is also ceaselessly functioning very
                      naturally and it means in one paryaaya or expression
                      of His depicts every paryaaya of entire universe
                      including it’s own. So every paryaaya of Keval Gynaani
                      will be similar, as all have been already seen in the
                      prime or first paryaaya of Keval Gynaan.

                      So the order of the paryaays of all the substances
                      happening is well seen ahead of it’s happening in one
                      paryaaya of Keval gynaan, right. So how else the
                      paryaayas would happen/flow. So it is said that
                      paryaayas are orderly as seen in one paryaaya of Keval
                      Gynaani.

                      That is the reason He is anxiety less once and
                      forever, right.

                      This is the benefit of niyativad – krama niyamith
                      paryaaya – krambad paryaaya.

                      Quote:
                      This is one doctrine in Jainism, which, seems to be
                      irrational and contradictory, but is to be taken on
                      faith.

                      Analysis:
                      So, blindly subscribing to one’s faith, as you wish to
                      be, is one’s own failure or defect, right? Seemingly
                      to be irrational and contradictory are superficial and
                      needs a deeper and closer approach and it cannot
                      escape one’s discriminatory knowledge.

                      And if one’s interest in one is sincere and certain,
                      know thyself and be thyself, which is the essence of
                      the revelation of Kevalin

                      Attempt is made to place the information and
                      understanding is one’s. Walking stick cannot make a
                      man walk but if man wants to walk; walking stick may
                      help the man. This attempt is only a walking stick.

                      Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of
                      samyakthva.

                      If still doubt persists please do not hesitate to come
                      up.

                      Truth is Kevalin and the rest are mine.

                      Now for the participants,

                      Yours brotherly,
                      Sreepalan


                      --- Anish Shah <anishshah19@...> wrote:

                      > Jai Jinendra, My doubts regarding Bhavyata of a soul
                      > are similar to that of Rushabh.
                      >
                      > It has been said for all the souls in our scriptures
                      > :-
                      > 1.. All the souls including Mundane (Sansarik)
                      > Souls are intrinsically pure and crystal clear but,
                      > it is obstructed and bonded by various Karmas.
                      > 2.. All Souls possess Consciuosness (Chetana),
                      > Perception (Darshan) and Knowledge (Gnana); even the
                      > strongest of the Karmas cannot fully obstruct these
                      > qualities in the lowliest of the life forms. Hence,
                      > it is said that, there is no difference in the soul
                      > of nigod with that of a Kevali.
                      > 3.. All soul can modify and control the influence
                      > of the karmas in its possession. Jain doctorine
                      > supports "Purushartha and efforts". It is not a
                      > Niyativad or a fatalastic doctorine that -
                      > everything is pre-destined to happen.
                      > But at loggerheads with the above, seems to be the
                      > doctorine of "Bhavyatva", which, has a touch of
                      > fatalism and pre-destiny to it, atleast for a
                      > non-bhavya soul. Liberation or Moksha is denied to a
                      > non-bhavya soul. However, it has a capability to
                      > modify its karma and attain heavens, but not
                      > salvation. Why it is so, it is not reasoned, but
                      > simply explained as Aapta Vachan.
                      >
                      > This is one doctorine in Jainism, which, seems to be
                      > irrational and contradictory, but is to be taken on
                      > faith.
                      >
                      > Michhami Dukkadam, if anything is contrary to the
                      > teachings of the Kevalis .
                      >
                      > Anish Shah
                      >
                      >
                      >


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