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Re: [JainList] Jain vegan lifestyle vs. traditional Jain lifestyle

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  • sanjay jain
    Dear Capt Jain, Couple of concepts being mixed up here.... Eco-friendly and veganism. They are not connected, but are often practiced by the same people....
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 31, 2003
      Dear Capt Jain,

      Couple of concepts being mixed up here....
      Eco-friendly and veganism. They are not connected, but
      are often practiced by the same people....

      The use of Eco-friendly technology is to minimise our
      destructive impact on the planet and need not have any
      spiritual aspect to it.... it is a simple recognition
      that if we treat the world as a dustbin, we'll have to
      live in the filth (and climate change).I'm not sure
      that VASTU SHARTRA is the same thing, if it is please
      tell us more on the similarities.

      You seem to have some western domination issues... I
      grew up in England and in the US right now. The people
      who follow veganism do not wish to have any domination
      over others. I wish to do development work in India
      etc... it could be argued that I wish to impose my
      views on others, but that is not the case.

      While doing some work in Bhuj after the earthquake. I
      saw a little girl walking naked side by side with a
      pig in utter filth. I realised that as long as people
      are able to not be disturbed by this scene (not that
      uncommon in India) that intervention is necessary....
      I understand that this is not a Jain way, but I feel
      the need and so will do what I can.... (I say all this
      to show that intervention and domination are not the
      same).

      As for the Indian dairy industry being less cruel,
      please, please do some research. If cows were not
      killed in India how does India produce so much leather
      (the type of leather that comes from killed animals,
      the leather of naturally dieing animals is not the
      same).

      -Sanjay











      --- Capt K C R JAIN <capt_rjain@...> wrote:
      > Dear Rushabh Sheth,
      >
      > Vegetarianism and veganism are the same,it is old
      > wine in new bottle.The difference you mentioned are
      > not the difference, and it is felt as difference due
      > to not knowing the original. One of the difference
      > brought out is the use of solar energy.The energy
      > earlier used was either by burning wood, later
      > switched over to oil gas ete as and when it was
      > introduced.Since solar energy apparatus were
      > introduced many have already started using you
      > without the word vegan.
      >
      > The eco friendly house you mentioned is already in
      > existance from the time immorial for which the given
      > name is VASTU SHARTRA.It is the science
      > constructing the house as per nature for which the
      > new name given is eco friedly.
      >
      > The third one mentioned is about organic food.Till
      > the invent of the so called modern science and its
      > introduction by the occupied British Govt. in India,
      > only organic farming was in existance hence only
      > organic food was consumed as a rule. Even now many
      > use this only.
      >
      > Regarding the dairy products mentioned which makes
      > the alleged difference between veg and veg ie
      > vegetarianism and veganism is again based on
      > ignorence of the rules prevelent from the earlier
      > days with regard to the products.
      >
      > Milk-which is base of it is procured from
      > cows/buffalos.The milk is to be exatracted without
      > hurting the animal and leaving behind sufficient
      > mild for the growth of the calf.The cow naturally
      > gives more mild when taken care and grows as a
      > member of the family in which generation to
      > generation it lives and never sold off to butchers
      > even when ceases to give milk.The other products
      > taken out from the milk such as butter ghee curd
      > and paneer etc are to br taken as per rules.For eg
      > curd which is older than 24 hrs not to be used and
      > butter gets micro organisms if kept more than a
      > perticular period. Ghee the byproduct of butter is
      > to be made before it gets infested.The refregeration
      > may be helping it to extend its life.The question of
      > using leather etc doesnot arise as it comes of
      > cruelty.
      >
      > The veganism is the product of western culture
      > .There the milk is extracted by machines and there
      > is no human approach.Milk is removed till the last
      > drop even at times few drors of blood too. The cow
      > donot give the milk out of effection but taken out
      > forcefully.It is injected with hormones to produce
      > more and more milk. It is separated from its calf.
      > It is not an animal for them but a biological
      > machine.
      >
      > Since milk comes such way in foreign
      > [western]countries it is appropriate to be a vegan
      > there . But it is not required in India. From long
      > it self it is a practice not to wear leather
      > articles and avoid use of articles made out of
      > cruelty.
      >
      > Here there is no bar to use normal vegetables, but
      > if it is infested it is rejected. Like wise the milk
      > in western countries is infested with cruelty hence
      > to be avoided.
      >
      > Regarding silk , rules are already in
      > existance.Within few years the ahimsa principles
      > will go off and the principles of cruelty to animals
      > will stay as a rule.The name veganism is to destroy
      > the Indian/ jain supremacy over vegetarianism and to
      > make it as a western rialisation .Hence I suggest
      > you Rushab,to remain as a vegetarian and not a vegan
      > by continuing the you are living .
      >
      >
      > This is purely my personal opinion.I feel there
      > cannot be any modification possible to what the
      > Thirthankers had told. whatever changes you feel
      > necessary to be made at this moment is not due to
      > the inadequacy of jain principles, but due to the
      > advent of so called science and cruel greed of
      > humankind in the the form of western culture.Like
      > more and more religions have come out by copying one
      > another more and more vegetarians with new names
      > will come out based on prevention of cruelty to
      > animals and not as a principle of ahimsa.
      >
      > Sorry if I hurt your feelings
      > Capt. KCR Jain
      >
      >
      > JAI JINENDRA
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    • Sudhir M.Shah
      Dear capt. KCR Jain You wrote:Vegetarianism and veganism are the same, it is old wine in new bottle. In my understanding and experience, the term vegetarianism
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 31, 2003

        Dear capt. KCR Jain

        You wrote:Vegetarianism and veganism are the same, it is old wine in new bottle.

        In my understanding and experience, the term vegetarianism refers only to what one eats and does not pertain to any other aspect of one's life.
        While, Vegans make a conscious effort to avoid all forms of exploitation, harm, and cruelty to animals regardless of any perceived "value" to society.
        The motivation for becoming vegan, is fundamentally rooted in a compelling set of ethical values and beliefs as well as environmental and health consciousness.
        Vegan lifestyle includes abstinence from all animal based food products including, but not limited to: animal and fish flesh, all dairy products including milk, yogurt, cheese, butter & ghee, gelatin, and hundreds of others. In addition to the diet, this also includes abstinence from apparels containing animal-derived ingredients like leather, silk, and furs and avoidance of consumer and household products which have been tested on animals like : soaps, shampoos, cosmetics etc. Veganism goes much beyond vegetarianism.
         
        You wrote: Since milk comes such way in foreign [western]countries it is appropriate to be a vegan there . But it is not required in India.
         
        I don't know what part of India you are talking about! Every dairy in India I have visited so far - small and large, the cruelty associated with milk making live machines is the same. In fact in some cases it is even worst. I have presented evidence for this in the past and it has been collaborated by many others. However some of us like to dig our head in sand and not accept the facts.
         
        You wrote: Regarding silk , rules are already in existence.Within few years the ahimsa principles will go off and the principles of cruelty to animals will stay as a rule.The name veganism is to destroy the Indian/ jain supremacy over vegetarianism and to make it as a western realization .Hence I suggest you Rushab,to remain as a vegetarian and not a vegan  by continuing the you are living .
         
        I certainly am surprised to read this statement from a "Jain". Rushabhji has never said that Jain principles are wrong or inadequate. He only points out the practices. What percentage of Jains you know, refrain from silk, pearls, leather etc...?  And what is this about "destroying Indian/Jain supremacy over vegetarianism"? Mahavirswami gave us great principles of Ahinsa, Anekant and Aparighraha. What did we do with that for 2600 years? Just talk -and no action. we got caught up at the bottom of the scale, with root vegetables and completely ignored the rest. Now that few "westerners" have applied these very principles in their day to day lives and taken them beyond the practices of Jain societies and we feel threatened by it and we want to re-claim it as our own!!!
        If Jains practiced these great principles in their day to day lives, today, the entire world would have looked up to us as an examplarary society and Jainism would be practiced through out the world!!! Unfortunately that is not the case. If we can not follow our own principle of Ahinsa (please remember, vegetarianism does not equal to Ahinsa), atleast not criticize the ones(vegans) who are following it!
         
        Submitted respectfully
        Sudhir M. Shah
         
      • Capt K C R JAIN
        Dear Mr. Sudhir, Thand you very much for the comments,what I want to bring out is that whatever veganism wants to do is already there in jainism. I accept that
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 2 10:20 PM

          Dear Mr. Sudhir,

          Thand you very much for the comments,what I want to bring out is that whatever veganism wants to do is already there in jainism. I accept that vegetarianism is not veganism nor vice versa. Veganism  is vegetarianism plus other aspects of jainism.Whatever you brought out is already included in jain principles. It doesnot mean all the jain principles are adhered and followed by all . The one difference I find is about milk. Will you please tell in detail why veganism is against consumption of milk.We in india have only heard the word vegan but donot know in detail

          Capt kcr jain



          JAI JINENDRA

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        • Capt K C R JAIN
          Dear Sanjay, I agree with you that couple of concepts are being mixed up.Eco friendy is an not a new technology , but I agree that the word is new.This is in
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 2 11:18 PM

            Dear Sanjay,

            I agree with you that couple of concepts are being mixed up.Eco friendy is an not a new technology , but I agree that the word is new.This is in existance from time immorial.Of late during the British rule this was distroyed by introducing dangerous chemicals for all walks of life then it started polluting the remedial and preventive methods were given this name.

             Vastu shastra the ideal way to construst a house keeping the nature and directions in mind for availing the best use of them with the least friction . in that what type of wood to be used, when that wood to be cut,[ day, time etc]  the purity of other materials ,what type of trees /plants are to be planted near by  and what direction  to keep the health of the inmates.

            I do not know as per veganism the dead body will be buried or creamated.Here we creamate it .Will you be kind enough to tell us what veganism has to say about it.

            I never meant that there is no cruelty in India. I accept it is growing more and more everyday.Most of the dairy milk in India comes from farmers with one to few cows. Milking is done manualy and not machines.Taking this into consideration my statement of less cruelty in India.We are against not only exporting meat but even the domestic consumption. We cant do it . It is not in our hands.

            Here the arguments I forwarded is not based on what is happening in Indid, but what jainism says.

            It is the very western culture which brought the indian cruelty to this stage today with the introduction of beef eating.The same realised the cruelty very very late.What I brought out is that ever veganism preach is already there in jainism in the form of vegetarianism and other aspects of life.Does a vegan eat onion and other  underground roots , do they eat at night ,do they drink alcohol,do they burry their body or creamate,do they keep dogs / other domestic animals at home,why they refuse cows milk, what are the reasons for it which our ancient saints couldnot visualise,what  type of occupation veganism suggests for its followers are some of the questions arise in our mind.I am not against veganism it is the protecter of jains in the west. In India any thing coming from west is considered valuable hence if veganism can increase the followeres in India Jains will be the happy people.

            Due to my ignorence what I wrote, if it offends any,

             I beg pardon from all

            Capt kcr jain



            JAI JINENDRA

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          • sreepal5058
            Samyak Darshan Dear shri. Rushabh Sheth and many brothers and sisters Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Vegetarianism – Ahimsa - vis a vis Jain Dharma. Ref:
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 3 11:43 PM
              Samyak Darshan

              Dear shri. Rushabh Sheth and many brothers and sisters

              Let soul secure samyakthva.

              Sub: Vegetarianism – Ahimsa - vis a vis Jain Dharma.

              Ref: Submission No 4212 dated 26th Aug. `03

              Reply:
              Vehemence and perseverance are broadly seen in the discussion table
              on this subject to bring out various angles of perception to high
              light one's view.

              The discussion is on the efficacy of the food habits and the articles
              of food to be eaten and the consequent result whether the same goes
              with the principles of Jain Dharma. If that is what sensed in the
              submissions of scores of valued participants, the following may also
              be perused for what it is worth.

              Jain Dharma:
              On consuming of food:
              Practical point of view(vyavahaar naya)
              Consuming food is one of the 18 defects (dhosh) according to Jain
              Dharma.

              However, eating is permitted to a limited purpose to sustain the body
              so long as the two - soul and body- remain together and during which
              period the soul has to use the body as a ladder to climb the path of
              Moksha. Or otherwise the togetherness of the soul and body will
              necessarily develop hunger and if hunger is not appeased, it may
              cause damage to the pursuance of the path of Jain Dharma.

              "Sevikku unau illathapodhu siridhu vayirrikku iyyappadum" so
              goes the Tamil saying and it means that when all there is no food for
              thought or listening to Jain Dharmic principles, only at that time
              small quantity of food is allowed to be loaded to one's stomach to
              appease hunger.

              The natural generation of saliva and other amino acids in the living
              being needs proteins, carbohydrates etc., to interact and produce the
              continuous requirements of blood, flesh etc., to sustain the body in
              working condition.

              Hunger can be seen only in a living being and not in dead body or
              liberated soul.

              Pain caused by hunger and felt by soul is not bearable due to
              weakness (asthirtha) of soul from the nischaya point of view and at
              that juncture the flowering of asaatha vedhaniya karma, and virya
              anthraya karma is happening and ending in eating due to the flowering
              of charitra mohaniya karma are from the vyavahaaric point of view.

              The flowering (udhaya) and shedding (udhirana) of karmaic particles
              are only instrumental causes (nimttas) and the soul's substantial
              cause (upadhana) is weak / unsteady to bear the pangs of hunger.

              Beyond which the consuming food is untenable or is an excess causing
              avoidable damage to the soul.

              "Pirappu arukkal urrarrkku udammbum migai" so goes the Tamil
              saying. It means for the aspirant who is working on ending the cycle
              of birth and death the body is excess / unwanted.

              On the items of foods:
              Having seen the purpose of consuming food, it is now one's choice
              to be least harmful to other living beings to satisfy one's
              hunger.

              Living beings are permeating (tusa tus burrah uha hai) the entire
              universe – lokaakash, a revelation of JINENDRA Baghavaan.

              Therefore, leave alone consuming an item of food but even our
              physical actions do form instrumental cause (nimitta kaarana) for the
              death of living beings. So our thinking (bhaava) should be to appease
              hunger with least suffering to other living beings, is that right?

              It is well known fact that sunlight restricts the free germination
              and darkness is otherwise, is it not? So, the edible vegetable items
              which are grown over the ground carry less living being than those
              from underground, is that right?

              By consuming vegetable items that too well ripped and falls down and
              detached of its own from the plant will be more acceptable and
              preferable and if not those that are procured by harvesting may be
              the next best preference.

              On the two items viz., turmeric (haldi) and ginger (sonth) too that
              are talked about very much now, the same principle applies and they
              are roots and extracted from the earth for the purpose of medicine
              and food. Definitely, be it we are grower, procurer or consumer; we
              are instrumental cause (nimitta) for the death or suffering of the
              living beings in them. Of course, when dried the living beings in
              them die and therefore it is preferred as medicine and food to take
              care of other living beings welfare.

              Quote:
              01) "Certainly, it was probably sufficient for the laypeople
              during the time of Mahavir"

              Could that be construed that Baghavaan MAHAVIR could not foresee a
              situation wherein persons of `modern industrialized world'
              would find it uncomfortable to follow JAIN principles?

              Sure, you would agree that it is or would not be the case.

              So then what is the lacuna?

              It is the sheer body based culture to which independent persons –
              souls - of the modern industrialized world have decided and
              determined to plunge at any cost and it is nothing but total denial
              of self or soul. If at all any thing of self – soul – is
              thought of or talked about, it is only subdhaarth – understanding
              by sound and not bhaavaarth – understanding by feelings.

              Can there be any other reason and for the participants to come up.

              02) "traditional Jain lifestyle may be outdated"
              With due respect to the learned participants, sumitted here that
              JINENDRA Baghavaan is all knowing – omnisciencient – and HIS
              cannot be called as `outdated' and all that one who is
              seriously interested in oneself has to update one's knowledge about
              oneself.

              Knowing self and being as self is not negotiable to achieve the
              goal of liberation. And choice is one's.

              03) "Indeed, it would only be prudent for the Jain communities to
              promote a new lifestyle called the Jain vegan lifestyle, which
              incorporates everything from the vegan and traditional Jain
              lifestyles."

              You, all learned participants, know very well that KEVALIN's
              revelation is complete and final. So it is for us to update and
              update with proper understanding.

              It is universal truth and dharma of the self - swa dharma and is
              valid for all times and for all places and for all living beings
              – human, hellish, heavenly, animal and plant. We, who are
              complete and self composed in all respects from the beginnig less
              time and shall be so for endless time, wish to be frail and
              vacillating although we are made up of infinite strength and
              infinite bliss. It is one's choice.

              Quote:
              "become far more violent"
              "factory meat and dairy farms are now prevalent across India"
              "presence of cruel, violent, and sickening factory dairy farms
              across India"
              "the increasing violence we are contributing to the world around
              us?"

              Prathamanuyog would provide scores of instances wherein millions
              have been killed in wars, fights and clashes caused on account of
              greed for land, women, wealth, fame, power etc. The various styles
              of gruesome punishments and cruel acts of sufferance are not
              wanting from times immemorial. On the eating of meat no less was
              the order of the days by gone.

              Conclusion:
              JINA DHARMA is swa dhrama and if every one understands and follows
              the teachings of JINENDRA Baghavaan, the sufferings of individual
              souls would definitely find a limit and end. One need not get panicky
              and alarmed and such reactions do not contribute for the uplift and
              well being of the self.

              Occasions were there, here in the Jain list to submit on Ahimsa,
              vegetarian food, and the following submission may be gone thro if
              interested.
              No date
              1818 18-11-01
              1970 12-12-01
              2193 15-01-02
              3033 27-09-02
              3047 29-09-02
              3050 29-09-02
              3069 01-10-02
              3072 01-10-02
              3119 15-10-02
              3429 14-01-03
              3588 02-03-03

              Forgive for being lengthy as a learner submits it

              Now for the participants,

              "KNOW THYSELF AND BE THYSELF" is by KEVALIN for KEVALIN and
              of
              KEVALIN.

              Truth is of KEVALIN and rests are mine.

              Yours brotherly,
              sreepalan
            • subhash-jain@uiowa.edu
              Quoting Rushabh Sheth : Most of us are Jain by birth, not by our deeds. We follow traditional Jain lifestyle because we are Jain by
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 4 8:13 AM
                Quoting Rushabh Sheth <jainlist@...>:

                Most of us are Jain by birth, not by our deeds. We follow traditional Jain
                lifestyle because we are Jain by birth. What you are asking from us that we
                should be come Jain through our deeds, which is not easy to follow.

                Subhash Jain
              • Jatin M Gandhi
                As per my knowledge and observation goes I think all the rules put forward by the gurus were based on fundamentals of Perfect Management of Life. I have till
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 5 12:13 AM
                  As per my knowledge and observation goes I think all the rules put forward by the gurus were based on fundamentals of Perfect Management of Life. I have till now not been able to trace anyother resons behind these, if anyone is aware of things like why eating underground vegitables are prohibited and the reason for avoiding night food etc came into place please let me know.
                   
                  For the avoiding of night food, I see two reasons, 1) Was avoiding eating in dark as there wasn't electricity in the old times and 2) Might be its as when we sleep and our body isn't active the digestion of food might not be proper, but now when the time has changed, we have electricity and we wook late inthe night... life style has changed, then shouldn't some of the jainism fundamentals be relooked upon? If yes who should be doing it.
                   
                  Change is life, if the world wouldn't have changed I would have died.
                   
                  These are just my views. Please feel free to tell me if I am wrong and how?
                   
                  Regards,
                  Jatin
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Capt K C R JAIN [mailto:capt_rjain@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:48 AM
                  To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [JainList] Jain vegan lifestyle vs. traditional Jain lifestyle

                  Dear Sanjay,

                  I agree with you that couple of concepts are being mixed up.Eco friendy is an not a new technology , but I agree that the word is new.This is in existance from time immorial.Of late during the British rule this was distroyed by introducing dangerous chemicals for all walks of life then it started polluting the remedial and preventive methods were given this name.

                   Vastu shastra the ideal way to construst a house keeping the nature and directions in mind for availing the best use of them with the least friction . in that what type of wood to be used, when that wood to be cut,[ day, time etc]  the purity of other materials ,what type of trees /plants are to be planted near by  and what direction  to keep the health of the inmates.

                  I do not know as per veganism the dead body will be buried or creamated.Here we creamate it .Will you be kind enough to tell us what veganism has to say about it.

                  I never meant that there is no cruelty in India. I accept it is growing more and more everyday.Most of the dairy milk in India comes from farmers with one to few cows. Milking is done manualy and not machines.Taking this into consideration my statement of less cruelty in India.We are against not only exporting meat but even the domestic consumption. We cant do it . It is not in our hands.

                  Here the arguments I forwarded is not based on what is happening in Indid, but what jainism says.

                  It is the very western culture which brought the indian cruelty to this stage today with the introduction of beef eating.The same realised the cruelty very very late.What I brought out is that ever veganism preach is already there in jainism in the form of vegetarianism and other aspects of life.Does a vegan eat onion and other  underground roots , do they eat at night ,do they drink alcohol,do they burry their body or creamate,do they keep dogs / other domestic animals at home,why they refuse cows milk, what are the reasons for it which our ancient saints couldnot visualise,what  type of occupation veganism suggests for its followers are some of the questions arise in our mind.I am not against veganism it is the protecter of jains in the west. In India any thing coming from west is considered valuable hence if veganism can increase the followeres in India Jains will be the happy people.

                  Due to my ignorence what I wrote, if it offends any,

                   I beg pardon from all

                  Capt kcr jain



                  JAI JINENDRA

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                • Vijay Mehta
                  Jai Jinendra, Eating after sunset is said to be first door to Narak. The reason for not eating after sunset cannot be so simple like absence of electricity or
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 6 8:46 AM
                    Jai Jinendra,
                     
                    Eating after sunset is said to be first door to Narak. The reason for not eating after sunset cannot be so simple like absence of electricity or living habits.
                     
                    There are insects which takes birth/flyes after sunset. When you speak of electricity it is more important not to eat in presence of electric light after sunset. Needless to say that insects are more around electric bulbs and tubelights.  Who takes care if they fall in the food?
                     
                    Secondly, there are "sukshma" jivas which cannot be seen through our bare eyes which gets into the food. Andhkar - Darkness provides enviornment for the birth of such jivas.
                     
                    Eating at night is compared with eating meat and drinking water is compared with drinking blood.
                     
                    Those who want to say that their life style - working timings have changed, I ask one simple question...
                    Do they eat before sunset when they are at home, say on holiday??.  Don't try to justify the thing which is not right.. instead if one is seriously unable to give up eating after sunset and he is compelled to eat after sunset, he will do so with his heart crying.
                     
                    Vijay Mehta
                     
                     
                    <
                  • Capt K C R JAIN
                    Jatin M Gandhi wrote that the reason for avoiding night food is the absence of electricity and suggested to take a relook upon the fundamental of jainism.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 7 6:46 AM

                      Jatin M Gandhi wrote that the reason for avoiding night food is the absence of  electricity and suggested  to take a relook upon the fundamental of jainism.

                      The reasons for advicing  to avoid night food is   primarily the absence of sunlight. During the sun light micro organisms do not develop/ take birth as in the absence of sunlight.While preparing the food either using electricity or otherwise lots of micro organisms gets destroyed.

                      While we eat food at night lots of micro organisms gets into our food and there after into our stomach. These micro organisms cannot be seen and so minute there are millions in nos every where during night.We cannot avoid them where ever we go.

                      The digestive system,the production of digestive juice,etc will be cold  or partially inactive during night.Hence the food you take during night will not get digested properly. The food you take must be taken well before the night fall so as to help the digestion process to start with.

                      The micro organisms and the other small organisms/insects if taken in will result in  incurable deceases of various kinds.To avoid illhealth and avoid being a reason for the killing /destruction of millions of organisns /insects our great saints have adviced us about the harm of night food.

                      All the animals which eats food in the day relax in the night. They donot go insearch of food during night. Only human beings for his greed cannot be satisfied  of any  type/amount of food.The animals are satisfied with the natural food but we donot.In the earlier days to cater  for the some emergent situations it was adviced to have" phala" ahara[fruits]in the night if you miss evening food.Later on for own convenience people manipulated it as" pala ahara"-tiffin such as dosa idly etc. That is why in many places in Tamil Nadu you will not get rice preparations during night

                      Jainism fundamentals doesnot need any change any time It is not made for any perticular time.It is not made but the truth remains as it is and our great saints brought this before us.Hence there is no need to look for a relook of jain fundamentals.

                      The mistakes due to my ignorence may please be pardoned.



                      JAI JINENDRA

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                    • Jatin M Gandhi
                      In an article I that read it was quoted as below: In 1877 it was discovered that sunlight kills bacteria. Brown sugar water was put in tubes which sat on the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 8 3:40 AM

                        In an article I that read it was quoted as below:

                        "In 1877 it was discovered that sunlight kills bacteria. Brown sugar water was put in tubes which sat on the window sill of a small scientific lab. Some of the tubes were in direct sunlight, some in shadows. The tubes that had been in the shade were cloudy with bacterial growth; those in the sunlight remained clear, indicating no bacterial growth."

                        According to this the below discussion hold good. But I think again the growth of organism is stopped in sunlight as they get killed, does this serve the propose of Jainism?

                        As much as I know micro organism cannot be seen even in day by the naked eye, though I am not sure if they exist more in number in night than in day in our environment. But I think we still end up eating them even in day. we are still the sinners.

                        My Biology class thought me that digestion process has 4 hours cycle and the system is not actively functioning when we sleep. For the kind of life I see around now I don't see even kids sleeping before watching there 11:30 pm cartoon show and working people like me especially in IT don't get to sleep before 12 (min) even if we want to that means even if I eat at 8 pm it will have 4 hours time to get digested before I sleep. But our religion talks about 6 pm latest.

                        Once upon a time nights used to be dark and people ate small insects in night, I doubt that happens now with electricity in even smaller of towns. Does the Illness funda still holds good?

                        And last thing does it mean that for humans it would be best if they live like other animals, isn't it our god who has made him different and given him different nature, power to think, rule and to be selfish. Why are we trying to change what god has himself created?

                        Thanks for giving me some insight on things, but I am still confused.

                        The mistakes due to my ignorance may please be pardoned.

                        Jai Jinendra

                        Jatin

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Capt K C R JAIN [mailto:capt_rjain@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:16 PM
                        To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [JainList] Jain vegan lifestyle vs. traditional Jain lifestyle

                        Jatin M Gandhi wrote that the reason for avoiding night food is the absence of  electricity and suggested  to take a relook upon the fundamental of jainism.

                        The reasons for advicing  to avoid night food is   primarily the absence of sunlight. During the sun light micro organisms do not develop/ take birth as in the absence of sunlight.While preparing the food either using electricity or otherwise lots of micro organisms gets destroyed.

                        While we eat food at night lots of micro organisms gets into our food and there after into our stomach. These micro organisms cannot be seen and so minute there are millions in nos every where during night.We cannot avoid them where ever we go.

                        The digestive system,the production of digestive juice,etc will be cold  or partially inactive during night.Hence the food you take during night will not get digested properly. The food you take must be taken well before the night fall so as to help the digestion process to start with.

                        The micro organisms and the other small organisms/insects if taken in will result in  incurable deceases of various kinds.To avoid illhealth and avoid being a reason for the killing /destruction of millions of organisns /insects our great saints have adviced us about the harm of night food.

                        All the animals which eats food in the day relax in the night. They donot go insearch of food during night. Only human beings for his greed cannot be satisfied  of any  type/amount of food.The animals are satisfied with the natural food but we donot.In the earlier days to cater  for the some emergent situations it was adviced to have" phala" ahara[fruits]in the night if you miss evening food.Later on for own convenience people manipulated it as" pala ahara"-tiffin such as dosa idly etc. That is why in many places in Tamil Nadu you will not get rice preparations during night

                        Jainism fundamentals doesnot need any change any time It is not made for any perticular time.It is not made but the truth remains as it is and our great saints brought this before us.Hence there is no need to look for a relook of jain fundamentals.

                        The mistakes due to my ignorence may please be pardoned.



                        JAI JINENDRA

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                      • sreepal5058
                        Samyak Darshan Dear Shri. Jatin M Gandhi, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Ahimsa Ref:submission No. 4245 You are partly correct in finding reasons for
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 8 12:59 PM
                          Samyak Darshan

                          Dear Shri. Jatin M Gandhi,

                          Let soul secure samyakthva.

                          Sub: Ahimsa
                          Ref:submission No. 4245

                          You are partly correct in finding reasons for avoidance of eating
                          food in the night on health reasons but the more important is the
                          damage one's causes in eating and more so in night eating. Certainly
                          the absence of electric energy need not be a reason.

                          That apart, there were many submissions on this issue earlier and few
                          are given here under for your information and if you are serious and
                          prepared to go thro', please attempt to open up them.

                          Submission No. date
                          1818 08-11-01
                          2017 16-12-01
                          2193 16-01-02
                          3050 29-09-02
                          3072 01-10-02
                          3429 14-01-03


                          Intention – bhaava - is more important and very vital at the time
                          of
                          happening of an event – say death caused by the act of one to the
                          other.

                          "KNOW THYSELF AND BETHYSELF" is of KEVALIN, for KEVALIN and
                          by
                          KEVALIN.

                          Now for the participants,

                          Yours brotherly,
                          sreepalan
                        • hemanga@mastek.com
                          Dear Jatin and other members Jai Jinendra I have written some of my comment in the text in between your mail. ... From: Jatin M Gandhi
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 9 11:20 PM
                            Dear Jatin and other members
                            Jai Jinendra
                            I have written some of my comment in the text in between your mail.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jatin M Gandhi [mailto:jatin@...]
                            Sent: Mon 9/8/03 4:10 PM
                            To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Cc:
                            Subject: RE: [JainList] Night food.



                            In an article I that read it was quoted as below:

                            "In 1877 it was discovered that sunlight kills bacteria. Brown sugar water was put in tubes which sat on the window sill of a small scientific lab. Some of the tubes were in direct sunlight, some in shadows. The tubes that had been in the shade were cloudy with bacterial growth; those in the sunlight remained clear, indicating no bacterial growth."

                            According to this the below discussion hold good. But I think again the growth of organism is stopped in sunlight as they get killed, does this serve the propose of Jainism?

                            MY COMMENT: Yes they very much do serve the purpose. There is a difference in what you inferred and what happens. Firstly, sunlight doesnt kill it, but in present of sunlight it doesnt grow. Secondly in absence of sunlight there is darkness (according to jainism there exist something called darkness. Darkness is just not void of light but a matter). This darkness supports growth of micro-organism. The concept is similar to that of presence of moisture. For eg. a chapati (roti) if kept of two to three days getted rotten and fungus grows over it. It is due to the moisture in the roti. Same roti, if had been roasted to khakra (all water evaporates) it would have remain intact. Moisture supports fungal growth on the roti. In the same way darkness supports the growth of micro-organism (most of them cannot be obversed by the most powerful microscope which exists.!! ). If these organism are present sunlight do kill them. But at the same time is stops the cycle (life cycle of the organism) which otherwise would simply keep on multiplying and dying its death. (end of this comment)

                            As much as I know micro organism cannot be seen even in day by the naked eye, though I am not sure if they exist more in number in night than in day in our environment. But I think we still end up eating them even in day. we are still the sinners.

                            MY COMMENT: VERY MUCH!! We all ARE sinners and will remain till we are out of the cycle of birth and death. The rules (I would like to refer it as recommendations rather than rules) of eating, talking, walking etc. are not to make us sin-less, but to minimize out sin. (end of this comment)

                            My Biology class thought me that digestion process has 4 hours cycle and the system is not actively functioning when we sleep. For the kind of life I see around now I don't see even kids sleeping before watching there 11:30 pm cartoon show and working people like me especially in IT don't get to sleep before 12 (min) even if we want to that means even if I eat at 8 pm it will have 4 hours time to get digested before I sleep. But our religion talks about 6 pm latest.

                            MY COMMENT: The religion is not to improve your digestion system and your bodily functions, but to elevate your soul. Better health is just a by-product. (end of the comment)

                            Once upon a time nights used to be dark and people ate small insects in night, I doubt that happens now with electricity in even smaller of towns. Does the Illness funda still holds good?

                            MY COMMENT: Night-meals are avoided to avoid suksma hinsa (at very large scale). Can you /we avoid it? and are you/we sure that you have avoided it?(end of the comment)

                            And last thing does it mean that for humans it would be best if they live like other animals, isn't it our god who has made him different and given him different nature, power to think, rule and to be selfish. Why are we trying to change what god has himself created?

                            MY COMMENT: There is no creator God, and if he is exist I hate Him at my best for creating this universe.(end of the comment)

                            Thanks for giving me some insight on things, but I am still confused.

                            MY COMMENT: Hope that this helps(end of the comment)

                            The mistakes due to my ignorance may please be pardoned.

                            Jai Jinendra

                            Jatin



                            Regards,

                            Hemang Ajmera

                            PS: I dont have any right to say on this topic cause I myself is having ratri bhojan. (bad on my part)
                          • Rushabh Sheth
                            ... Then the Jain community should actively proselytize those non-Jains who follow the vegan lifestyle and other forms of samyak charitra (right conduct) but
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 10 2:39 PM
                              --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, subhash-jain@u... wrote:
                              > Quoting Rushabh Sheth <jainlist@r...>:
                              >
                              > Most of us are Jain by birth, not by our deeds. We follow traditional Jain
                              > lifestyle because we are Jain by birth. What you are asking from us that we
                              > should be come Jain through our deeds, which is not easy to follow.
                              >
                              > Subhash Jain

                              Then the Jain community should actively proselytize those non-Jains who follow
                              the vegan lifestyle and other forms of samyak charitra (right conduct) but do
                              not have the samyak jnaan and darshan (right knowledge and perception). Once
                              proselytized with samyak jnaan and darshan as well as all aspects of the
                              traditional Jain lifestyle (in combination with their vegan lifestyle), these
                              new Jains can lead the Jain community by their example of external conduct.

                              It is said that one is privileged to be born into a Jain family. Is it also not
                              a privilege to follow the religion of the kevalins with full faith, right
                              perception, right knowledge, and right conduct?
                            • Rushabh Sheth
                              ... I never meant to say that Mahavir never foresaw the current situation in this world today; through Mahavirswami, we all know it is all going downhill in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 10 3:27 PM
                                --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "sreepal5058" <sreepal5058@y...> wrote:


                                > Quote:
                                > 01) "Certainly, it was probably sufficient for the laypeople
                                > during the time of Mahavir"
                                >
                                > Could that be construed that Baghavaan MAHAVIR could not foresee a
                                > situation wherein persons of `modern industrialized world'
                                > would find it uncomfortable to follow JAIN principles?
                                >
                                > Sure, you would agree that it is or would not be the case.
                                >
                                > So then what is the lacuna?

                                I never meant to say that Mahavir never foresaw the current situation in this
                                world today; through Mahavirswami, we all know it is all going downhill in this
                                time cycle. What I meant is that during the time of Mahavir and afterwards, the
                                lifestyle of the Jaina lay followers contributed minimum violence to the
                                surrounding environment and to all living beings (no eating at night, no root
                                vegetables, no silk, etc.). For example, milk certainly was not produced
                                through violent means during those times. In sum, their external conduct led to
                                maximum non-violence within the limitations imposed by their non-ascetic
                                lifestyle. If I am wrong on that point, I welcome a detailed correction.

                                What I am saying is that, TODAY, to achieve the same level of maximum
                                non-violence associated with the lay followers during the time of Mahavir, one
                                would have to go beyond the lifestyle of those followers and adopt the vegan
                                lifestyle in addition to the traditional Jain lifestyle (no milk consumption,
                                eco-friendly cars, solar energy, etc) . This would counter the violence
                                associated with the modern industrialized world. Even then, I am not sure
                                whether the level of ahinsa associated with that hybrid lifestyle would even
                                match that of laypeople during the time of Mahavir.



                                > Can there be any other reason and for the participants to come up.
                                >
                                > 02) "traditional Jain lifestyle may be outdated"
                                > With due respect to the learned participants, sumitted here that
                                > JINENDRA Baghavaan is all knowing – omnisciencient – and HIS
                                > cannot be called as `outdated' and all that one who is
                                > seriously interested in oneself has to update one's knowledge about
                                > oneself.

                                My statement was not meant to say that the teachings of the omniscients are
                                outdated. I was talking about the lifestyle, as in the external conduct of the
                                Jaina followers.

                                > 03) "Indeed, it would only be prudent for the Jain communities to
                                > promote a new lifestyle called the Jain vegan lifestyle, which
                                > incorporates everything from the vegan and traditional Jain
                                > lifestyles."
                                >
                                > You, all learned participants, know very well that KEVALIN's
                                > revelation is complete and final. So it is for us to update and
                                > update with proper understanding.
                                >

                                Yes, one should always change one's external conduct to achieve maximum external
                                non-violence and keep within the spirit of the teachings of the kevalins. Hence
                                my suggestion for a hybrid Jain and vegan lifestyle.


                                >
                                > Quote:
                                > "become far more violent"
                                > "factory meat and dairy farms are now prevalent across India"
                                > "presence of cruel, violent, and sickening factory dairy farms
                                > across India"
                                > "the increasing violence we are contributing to the world around
                                > us?"
                                >
                                > Prathamanuyog would provide scores of instances wherein millions
                                > have been killed in wars, fights and clashes caused on account of
                                > greed for land, women, wealth, fame, power etc. The various styles
                                > of gruesome punishments and cruel acts of sufferance are not
                                > wanting from times immemorial. On the eating of meat no less was
                                > the order of the days by gone.
                                >

                                When the nature of an external event changes, one must adjust accordingly. A
                                benign external event may turn into a violent external event and partaking in
                                the former should cease when it turns into the latter. Examples:

                                Transportation: Used to be cow-pulled carts, now they are motor vehicles.

                                Food: Milk production through non-violent methods, now through violent methods.

                                Energy: Firewood in limited quantity, now nuclear, coal, gas, etc. in far
                                exponential quantities.

                                Clothing: Simple cotton, khadi, etc. Now cotton, leather, silk, rayon, plastic,
                                etc.

                                Indeed, since the time of Mahavir, benign external events have turned far more
                                violent mostly on account of greed. Hence change in external conduct is
                                necessary. It is the soul's choice.
                              • Rushabh Sheth
                                ... cruelty to animals will stay as a rule.The name veganism is to destroy the Indian/ jain supremacy over vegetarianism and to make it as a western
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 10 3:45 PM
                                  --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, Capt K C R JAIN <capt_rjain@y...> wrote:
                                  >.Within few years the ahimsa principles will go off and the principles of
                                  cruelty >to animals will stay as a rule.The name veganism is to destroy the
                                  Indian/ jain >supremacy over vegetarianism and to make it as a western
                                  rialisation .Hence I >suggest you Rushab,to remain as a vegetarian and not a
                                  vegan by continuing the >you are living .
                                  >

                                  Captain Jain,

                                  Sir, I hope you are not advocating that one should practice a lifestyle that is
                                  acknowledged to be more violent than a vegan lifestyle simply because the latter
                                  is promulgated by Western influences. If you meant to say that a vegan
                                  lifestyle is simply a fad and will disappear after a short while, then that may
                                  be so in Western cultures but I hardly think it applies to followers of the
                                  kevalins who decide to adopt this lifestyle _permanently_ to further their
                                  spiritual goals.

                                  I tend to take a very clinical view of the situation. If a lifestyle more
                                  non-violent than another, it is logical to adopt the former permanently,
                                  regardlesss of its origins and its duration in certain cultures. I think this
                                  logic is keeping in the spirit of the teachings of the kevalins.

                                  - Rushabh
                                • subhash-jain@uiowa.edu
                                  Dear Rushabh: You are correct in stating that It is said that one is privileged to be born into a Jain family , but unfortunately most of us consider this
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 12 10:07 AM
                                    Dear Rushabh:

                                    You are correct in stating that "It is said that one is privileged to be born
                                    into a Jain family", but unfortunately most of us consider this privilege as an
                                    end, not as a means, of our spiritual development.
                                    A large number of our monks were not born as Jains and they were not
                                    proselytized. These monks must have come in contact with Jains by deeds not by
                                    birth. Non-Jains who follow the vegan lifestyle cannot find here Jains by
                                    deeds. Unless some of us show these non-Jains that we are Jains by deeds, they
                                    will consider Jainism as a practical religion.

                                    Subhash Jain
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