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Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

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  • Jain Pathshala
    (If possible, please discuss this issue with jain samaj leaders and religious personalities). Sadharmik reader, Jai Jinendra. Kindly, post your openion after
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2003
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      (If possible, please discuss this issue with jain samaj leaders and
      religious personalities).

      Sadharmik reader,
      Jai Jinendra.

      Kindly, post your openion after comparing the following situations:

      (1)One person, who is strict in not to eat 'Kandmul', after learning from
      jain religion, what is wrong in it. That person consumes milk and milk
      products in everyday routin, even after knowing how cows are treated in
      every dairy, and everywhere the milk comes from same situation.

      (2)Other person, who eats 'Kandmul', even after knowing from jain religion
      that what is wrong in eating it. That person, however, stop consuming milk
      or any milk products for whole life after learning how badly cows are
      treated in every dairy which gives life-time suffering and finally sending
      the cows to slaughterhouse.

      As per your openion, which involves more hinsa out of these two different
      situations?

      Please post your openion with reasons.

      Dilip Doshi





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    • damifb@sion.com
      What`s Kandmul? ... De: Jain Pathshala Fecha: Sábado, Febrero 1, 2003 8:15 pm Asunto: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa -
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 2, 2003
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        What`s Kandmul?

        ----- Mensaje Original -----
        De: "Jain Pathshala" <jainpathshala@...>
        Fecha: Sábado, Febrero 1, 2003 8:15 pm
        Asunto: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

        > <html><body>
        >
      • Vijay Mehta
        Sadharmik Bandhu, Shri Dilipbhai Doshi, Jai Jinendra, Thanks for putting on board a question going through the minds of many jains - (not me). I am a common
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 4, 2003
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          Sadharmik Bandhu, Shri Dilipbhai Doshi,
           
          Jai Jinendra,
           
          Thanks for putting on board a question going through the minds of many jains - (not me).
           
          I am a common jain and not a leader of Jain Samaj. I still wish to give my opinion on two situations given below:
           
          Situation No. 1:
           
          One person, who is strict in not to eat 'Kandmul', after learning  from
          jain religion, what is wrong in it. That person consumes milk and milk
          products in everyday routin, even after knowing how cows are treated in
          every dairy, and everywhere the milk comes from same situation.
           
          My Opinion:
           
          I have one corollary question to clarify the facts. What would one do if one knows that dairy milk is obtained in most cruel way. Whether he would try to stop cruelty or stop using milk. What is the reason for dairy to be in existence. We never had a dairy in the past. We, Indians have infact respected cattles, took them as our family members, loved them even worshipped them. We never sent them to slaughtehouses. It is World Bank and our politicians who finances the projects for slaughterhouse. Instead of looking on right side of a problem and solving them how wise it is to stop drinking milk and let the problem continue.
           
           
          Now I put another question, if you know how electricity is produced killing all PANCHENDRIYA JIVA -  and knowing that the blades of fan are required to be clean every hour for the animal bodies which are cut through the blades stuck in it and the water running from the fan is red with blood. How many of us have stopped using electricity?
           
          To say that"everywhere the milk comes from same situation" would not be correct. It is something what you have already decided. But that is not a case atleast with me when I know that the milk which comes to my house is from the Tabela in front of my house where everyday I can see how the cattles are kept.
           
          I feel there is a lobby of eaters of root-vegetables who cannot give us eating root-vegetables and tries to justify themselves by showing that they are not drinking milk. What have they to say on use of electricity?
           
           
          Situation No. 2:
           
          Other person, who eats 'Kandmul', even after knowing from jain religion
          that what is wrong in eating it. That person, however, stop consuming milk
          or any milk products for whole life after learning how badly cows are
          treated in every dairy which gives life-time suffering and finally sending
          the cows to slaughterhouse.
           
          My opinion:
           
          What would be state of mind of a person who "even after knowing from jain religion
          that what is wrong in eating it." continues to eat root vegetable - 'Kandmul'. Simple and straight disregard for jain religion and thereby disregard for the principles of jainism and disregard for our Panch parmeshthi.
           
          Now assuming for the time being that he does not use milk for the reasons contended and so-called present everywhere, the shubh bhaav for this is a drop of water against the ocean of Ashubh Bhaav stated in the first para.
           
          The wise thing would be to change the way in which cattles are kept and used for milk. Why we forget that milk is only declared as "vigai" and not as "abhakshya". Now if we people do not behave properly with the cows that is a different problem. What would you call a person who without going to the root cause of the problem tries to cut at other places.  Sheer foolishness.
           
          But since he does not wish to give up root vegetables shows how rude he is not to give up something without which he would not have any trouble in living. Now things would be slightly different if one gives up root vegetables as well as milk if he knows that it has come from the dairy where cattles are not handled in our traditional way. 
           
          My request to the readers is to go to the root cause of the problem and remove them rather than taking shelter of not drinking milk to justify eating root-vegetables.
           
          We must be open enough to visit Panjrapole in Gujarat and Rajasthan and see how cattles are feeded and kept. It is very easy to say something sitting in any corner of the world but try to visit our own place where we belong to.
           
          Vijay Mehta
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 12:45 AM
          Subject: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?


          (If possible, please discuss this issue with jain samaj leaders and
          religious personalities).

          Sadharmik reader,
          Jai Jinendra.

          Kindly, post your openion after comparing the following situations:

          (1)One person, who is strict in not to eat 'Kandmul', after learning  from
          jain religion, what is wrong in it. That person consumes milk and milk
          products in everyday routin, even after knowing how cows are treated in
          every dairy, and everywhere the milk comes from same situation.

          (2)Other person, who eats 'Kandmul', even after knowing from jain religion
          that what is wrong in eating it. That person, however, stop consuming milk
          or any milk products for whole life after learning how badly cows are
          treated in every dairy which gives life-time suffering and finally sending
          the cows to slaughterhouse.

          As per your openion, which involves more hinsa out of these two different
          situations?

          Please post your openion with reasons.

          Dilip Doshi





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        • Kamal Shah
          It would be interesting to know if there is anybody who does not consume root vegetables and also does not consume/use products of animal origin (including
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 6, 2003
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            It would be interesting to know if there is anybody who does not
            consume root vegetables and also does not consume/use products of
            animal origin (including milk, pearls,silk,leather etc.).

            Vijay bhai, with due respect, you use milk that is obtained from the
            tabela opposite your house for which there is no problem. But, you must
            also be consuming milk products which are made from milk not obtained
            from there (for example, at a sadharmik vatsalya or jamanvaar or at
            somebody else's house). You cannot be sure of the way those cows are
            kept. Also what about leather and silk? What about varakh which is used
            for aangi?

            At this point, I must say that I do not consume root vegetables but I
            do consume / use all the above which I feel is wrong and I am trying to
            correct.

            Kamal

            On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 09:01 PM, Vijay Mehta wrote:
          • Hitesh Mehta
            The question is why we are mixing eating Kandmool with consuming milk. Consuming milk has great hinsa or not is debatable, but consuming Kandmool definitely
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 6, 2003
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              The question is why we are mixing eating Kandmool with consuming milk. Consuming milk has great hinsa or not is debatable, but consuming Kandmool definitely has very great hinsa, and is not justified-whether we consume milk or not. Think the other side of it too-what will happen, if everybody or majority stop consuming milk? Can we imagine what will happen to all animals who give milk? In good old days, we used horses mainly for transportation, what was the condition of horses in that era? Now we stopped using horses, just see condition of horses anywhere now. Yes, using leather and silk is definitely wrong and I can see the people who are aware of hinsa in that, and who are following Jainism by heart, are not using it.
               
              Regards
               
              Hitesh
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

              It would be interesting to know if there is anybody who does not consume root vegetables and also does not consume/use products of animal origin (including milk, pearls,silk,leather etc.).

              Vijay bhai, with due respect, you use milk that is obtained from the tabela opposite your house for which there is no problem. But, you must also be consuming milk products which are made from milk not obtained from there (for example, at a sadharmik vatsalya or jamanvaar or at somebody else's house). You cannot be sure of the way those cows are kept. Also what about leather and silk? What about varakh which is used for aangi?

              At this point, I must say that I do not consume root vegetables but I do consume / use all the above which I feel is wrong and I am trying to correct.

              Kamal
            • Damian
              Hi, brothers! jai jinendra! When I have donne similar questions about cows to Vijay ji he answered in a way that make me, as a Western and an extranger to
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 6, 2003
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                Hi, brothers! jai jinendra!
                When I have donne similar questions about cows to Vijay ji he answered in a way that make me, as a Western and an extranger to India, stop questioning, because he make it pretty mutch a nation issue of it. He says that in India cows are well handed everywhere... but I really would say the same about how a person can now that the animals producing his products are well treated. I would preffer to distrust, so I do not consume any animal products... am I correct?
                DamiFB
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

                It would be interesting to know if there is anybody who does not consume root vegetables and also does not consume/use products of animal origin (including milk, pearls,silk,leather etc.).

                Vijay bhai, with due respect, you use milk that is obtained from the tabela opposite your house for which there is no problem. But, you must also be consuming milk products which are made from milk not obtained from there (for example, at a sadharmik vatsalya or jamanvaar or at somebody else's house). You cannot be sure of the way those cows are kept. Also what about leather and silk? What about varakh which is used for aangi?

                At this point, I must say that I do not consume root vegetables but I do consume / use all the above which I feel is wrong and I am trying to correct.

                Kamal
              • AMEER. SANGHVI
                Jai Jinendra: Milk doesn t kill cows only, it starves calves (babies) to death without mother s milk. The calves are tortured and slaughtered in the veal
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
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                  Jai Jinendra:

                  Milk doesn't kill cows only, it starves calves (babies) to death without mother's milk. The calves are tortured and slaughtered in the veal industry. And how about bacteria�s produced and killed in meat and stinky bodies of dead animals, does this not produce and kill more lives than 'Kandmul'?

                  So called Jains who consume Dairy, poultry; who use Leather, silk, wool, varakh should stay away from temple until they learn basic Jainism and understand what is 'Ahimsa';  this will help prevent all kind of 'Asatnas' being practiced in all the temples and sthanaks, every day. Instruments like 'Tabla' and 'Dhol', which contains leather of innocent animals who were cruelly slaughtered, should be removed not only from temples, but any functions where 'stavans' are being sing. If 'Upvas' and 'Ektana' are the jain believes, then why 'Bhathu' and 'Swamivatsalya' are offered in the temple using Ghee and Sweets from cow's milk whose calves were slaughtered?

                  Now it's time to put our thoughts into actions. Mahavir's follower's should initiate to follow the true path of 'Ahimsa' without any fear of �social status� or �nutrition�.

                  Please don't delay, remember the animal's cannot wait any longer and they do not deserve to suffer for one more second for something, which is nothing but our wrong conception.

                  All the best in your first attempt towards none-violence

                  Jai Jinendra

                  Ameer Sanghvi.

                   

                   Jain Pathshala <jainpathshala@...> wrote:


                  (If possible, please discuss this issue with jain samaj leaders and
                  religious personalities).

                  Sadharmik reader,
                  Jai Jinendra.

                  Kindly, post your openion after comparing the following situations:

                  (1)One person, who is strict in not to eat 'Kandmul', after learning  from
                  jain religion, what is wrong in it. That person consumes milk and milk
                  products in everyday routin, even after knowing how cows are treated in
                  every dairy, and everywhere the milk comes from same situation.

                  (2)Other person, who eats 'Kandmul', even after knowing from jain religion
                  that what is wrong in eating it. That person, however, stop consuming milk
                  or any milk products for whole life after learning how badly cows are
                  treated in every dairy which gives life-time suffering and finally sending
                  the cows to slaughterhouse.

                  As per your openion, which involves more hinsa out of these two different
                  situations?

                  Please post your openion with reasons.

                  Dilip Doshi





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                • sreepal5058 <sreepal5058@yahoo.com>
                  Samyak Darshan Dear all participants, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Which ismore himsac – Milk or root vegetables (kundamool) Much has been placed on
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 7, 2003
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                    Samyak Darshan

                    Dear all participants,

                    Let soul secure samyakthva.

                    Sub: Which ismore "himsac" – Milk or root vegetables
                    (kundamool)

                    Much has been placed on board the discussion table and very closely
                    discussed with interest and enthusiasm.

                    Milk:
                    Milk is an excretion of a mammal animal and just like any
                    mother's (human) milk. It is everyone's knowledge that if a
                    mother,
                    who has delivered child, does not give milk to the child or take
                    out the accumulating milk in her breast, she will suffer lots of
                    pain. And cases are not wanting of death, due to failure to remove
                    the milk in the breast. It is a physical necessity to get rid of the
                    milk by the producer if not for the child / young one at least to
                    save one from pain perhaps death too.

                    Milk is a very nutritive food so far as the newborn baby is
                    concerned and more so with the mother's milk. Therefore, even
                    during theearly months or even later if mother's milk, if found
                    inadequate to the requirement of the child, cow's milk is
                    compensated or substituted.

                    Roots (kundamool):
                    These are the fruits grown under the ground and used as the food
                    item for consumption of human as well as animal. Due to the very
                    place of its growth - underneath the ground, the presence of the
                    quantity of single sensed beings, compared to the fruits –
                    vegetables grown over the ground, is definitely more for the
                    simple reason that it is not exposed to sun which restricts the
                    germination. This is known to every one, is that right?

                    Now the question:
                    Which one is more "himsac" - harmful?

                    Both are carrying single sensed beings – bacteria and in the milk
                    it is less and in the root it is more. Jain Dharma / Dharshan is
                    very clear about the existence / presence of living beings in the
                    universe and there is no place in the universe which is absent of
                    living beings.

                    View of JAIN DHARMA on eating:
                    Jain Dharma is also very clear that eating is one of the 18 defects
                    of SOUL and eating is the first and foremost of it. That is why Jain
                    Monks continuously practice the periodical fasting to develop in
                    them the in built strength and finally stop eating.

                    Position of living beings - say humans and animals in the universe:
                    It is imperative even to achieve the ultimate goal of the human
                    birth, one has to eat or feed oneself to sustain oneself, till he
                    secures samyakthva – faith, knowledge and practice in one's
                    self - and finally attain Nirvaan – liberation from the cycle of
                    birthand death. Therefore eating to live is thought of as necessity
                    and not living to eat.

                    Now in the process of living to secure the goal of Nirvaan or not,
                    one has to take food and take food with least affection or be
                    instrumental to the death of living beings for the other one - self
                    to live / sustain.

                    More to die on account of one's food requirements, one allows
                    oneself to collect more paap karmas – demeritorious - affective
                    karmic particles. Of course, you all know the ill effects of
                    paap karma.

                    Brief submission is made on the need and the effects of drinking
                    milk or eating roots.

                    Choice is now for the participants,

                    Yours brotherly
                    sreepalan




                    --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Damian" <damifb@s...> wrote:
                    > Hi, brothers! jai jinendra!
                    > When I have donne similar questions about cows to Vijay ji he
                    answered in a way that make me, as a Western and an extranger to
                    India, stop questioning, because he make it pretty mutch a nation
                    issue of it. He says that in India cows are well handed everywhere...
                    but I really would say the same about how a person can now that the
                    animals producing his products are well treated. I would preffer to
                    distrust, so I do not consume any animal products... am I correct?
                    > DamiFB
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Kamal Shah
                    > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:37 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [JainList] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or
                    Kandmul ?
                    >
                    >
                    > It would be interesting to know if there is anybody who does not
                    consume root vegetables and also does not consume/use products of
                    animal origin (including milk, pearls,silk,leather etc.).
                    >
                    > Vijay bhai, with due respect, you use milk that is obtained from
                    the tabela opposite your house for which there is no problem. But,
                    you must also be consuming milk products which are made from milk not
                    obtained from there (for example, at a sadharmik vatsalya or
                    jamanvaar or at somebody else's house). You cannot be sure of the way
                    those cows are kept. Also what about leather and silk? What about
                    varakh which is used for aangi?
                    >
                    > At this point, I must say that I do not consume root vegetables
                    but I do consume / use all the above which I feel is wrong and I am
                    trying to correct.
                    >
                    > Kamal
                  • damian alejandro fernandez
                    Hi! Jai Jinendra, dear Brothers Cow`s milk is nutritive for cows; human s milk is nutritive for humans. If you want I can send an extense paper on this. I
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 8, 2003
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                      Hi! Jai Jinendra, dear Brothers
                      Cow`s milk is nutritive for cows; human's milk is nutritive for humans.
                      If you want I can send an extense paper on this.
                      I think consuming milk is against the cow (not a one sensed being) in
                      many cases, so, we should keep atention to that.
                      DamiFB
                    • sreepal5058 <sreepal5058@yahoo.com>
                      Samyak Darshan Dear Shri.DamiFB, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Milk or root(kandamul) Quote: Cow`s milk is nutritive for cows; human s milk is nutritive
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 8, 2003
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                        Samyak Darshan

                        Dear Shri.DamiFB,

                        Let soul secure samyakthva.

                        Sub: Milk or root(kandamul)

                        Quote:
                        "Cow`s milk is nutritive for cows; human's milk is nutritive for
                        humans.''

                        Thanks for the pointed clarity on the best use of milk to respective
                        kids.

                        Doubtless indeed, the milk of cow is nutritious for calf and that of
                        mother is for child. The accent here is the painful (himsac) effect
                        caused on the consumption of the two between the milk and root
                        (kandamool).

                        This aspect takes the back seat, you will agree, when the discussion
                        is on the point of acceptability as per the tenets of Jain Dharma.

                        Secondly the choice of one to go in for cow's milk for the
                        children comes only when the mother's milk is insufficient or not
                        available, as you know. And if some one goes in for any other milk
                        or milk food for reasons beyond one's best reasoning that is the
                        choice of one and we have nothing to do with it.

                        Conclusion:
                        Destiny as it would be for one's capacity to produce sufficient
                        breast milk to feed one's child depends on the "no karma"

                        And therefore, one is left with out choice to go in for other milk
                        or milk food, will you not inclined to go with this choice?

                        Now for the participants,

                        Yours brotherly,
                        sreepalan




                        --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "damian alejandro fernandez"
                        <damifb@s...> wrote:
                        > Hi! Jai Jinendra, dear Brothers
                        > Cow`s milk is nutritive for cows; human's milk is nutritive for
                        humans.
                        > If you want I can send an extense paper on this.
                        > I think consuming milk is against the cow (not a one sensed being)
                        n
                        > many cases, so, we should keep atention to that.
                        > DamiFB
                      • Sudhir M. Shah
                        Dilipbhai You certainly have initiated an interesting, however a controversial discussion. ... -Muni Nyayvijayji in Jain Darshan. Based on the above logic,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 8, 2003
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                          Dilipbhai
                          You certainly have initiated an interesting, however a controversial discussion.

                          According to Jain thinking, the level of ‘hinsa’ is dependent not on the quantity of souls but on the level of consciousness of the killed soul. Thus, killing one soul of higher consciousness is more harmful than killing many souls of lower consciousness.

                                                                                                              -Muni Nyayvijayji in Jain Darshan.

                          Based on the above logic, Jains have naturally refrained from eating meat and consume vegetables instead, since harming 5 sensed being involves greater violence than single sensed beings. As aspiring Jains, our goal is to minimize violence. In my opinion, following the above logic, usage of milk involves far greater violence than the usage of roots. In fact, usage of leather, silk, pearls, even most medicines involve greater violence than the usage of roots. This is not a difficult logic to follow. Unfortunately many Jains are more interested in following traditions blindly rather than minimizing violence. They tend to furiously justify following traditions regardless of whether it makes logical sense or not - even when there is a negative impact on your health.  In my opinion, most Jains avoid roots because they are used to it and continue to use milk, silk, etc... because they are used to it. (not because of violence or self control etc...) It is understandable that changes are always difficult. However it is amusing to see how people justify continuing their traditional  conditioning and how they are threatened by anyone daring to speak against it!

                          After so much evidence being presented on this list for last several years by many individuals, regarding the violence perpetrated on milk producing machines, there are still die-hard traditionalist who claim that the violence in milk industry is debatable!!!
                          Than there are some fortunate souls (wearing blinkers) who get their milk from the 'Tabelas' in their back yard where the animals are well looked after. I am sure those cows/ buffaloes spend their days grazing in an open land with their male counterparts and reproduce naturally, look after their young, feed them fully and than go to those tabelas to donate their excess milk! They must be free to travel anywhere in search of fresh grass and when they no longer can produce milk, they are well looked after for rest of their natural life!!!
                          Also there are some compassionate souls who would do these animals favor by taking away their excess milk and relieve their pain and suffering or even death!

                          I have spent two Sundays a month for 6 years in the Aray Dairy region, closed to those "Tabelas" working on environmental projects with Bombay Natural History Society and also for Scout camps. Since this is a discussion on Ahinsa, I will not even go into the disastrous environmental impact of dairy industry or the negative health impact. The cruelty I saw was unbearable. By continuing to support this industry, we continue to support massive amount of cruelty. The only reason these animals were washed daily was because of the complains of smell from the humans living in that region! In Indian industry, even mechanical machines are looked after better than these milk producing live machines. of course this was over 20 years ago and while conditions elsewhere have deteriorated, it may have improved in India! (wishful)

                          Don't take my word for it,  please just visit a dairy, any dairy, regardless of size and find out some facts (with an open mind). Find out how much time they get to graze in open land, how they reproduce, how often they are impregnated,  find out what happens to their male off springs, How many drugs they are injected with regularly,  find out what happens to them when their milk production drops below the required quota? I dare you, you will loose any desire to consume milk products, the way I did!

                          I think, humans are the only animals who consume milk of another species?

                          Having said that, I would like to also state that the way individual chooses to practice non-violence or self control is a personal choice. We may discuss the issue, educate others, present facts, even voice our opinions, but should not impose our views on others in the form of rules. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the guest in my home would always find their choice of foods and freedom to practice their sets of beliefs. Although we have given so much importance to food, we should not forget that the most important thing is the discipline of mind and minimizing our 'Kashay'. If this is not achieved, the rest is meaningless.
                          Submitted respectfully
                          Sudhir M. Shah


                          Jain Pathshala wrote:
                          (If possible, please discuss this issue with jain samaj leaders and 
                          religious personalities).
                          
                          Sadharmik reader,
                          Jai Jinendra.
                          
                          Kindly, post your openion after comparing the following situations:
                          
                          (1)One person, who is strict in not to eat 'Kandmul', after learning  from 
                          jain religion, what is wrong in it. That person consumes milk and milk 
                          products in everyday routin, even after knowing how cows are treated in 
                          every dairy, and everywhere the milk comes from same situation.
                          
                          (2)Other person, who eats 'Kandmul', even after knowing from jain religion 
                          that what is wrong in eating it. That person, however, stop consuming milk 
                          or any milk products for whole life after learning how badly cows are 
                          treated in every dairy which gives life-time suffering and finally sending 
                          the cows to slaughterhouse.
                          
                          As per your openion, which involves more hinsa out of these two different 
                          situations?
                          
                          Please post your openion with reasons.
                          
                          Dilip Doshi
                          
                          
                          
                          
                          
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                        • Vijay Mehta
                          Dear Ameer Sanghvi, Jai Jinendra, I appreciate by heart your feelings for Ahinsa . I would only request you to explain me first what is Ahinsa as understood
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 12, 2003
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                            Dear Ameer Sanghvi,
                             
                            Jai Jinendra,
                             
                            I appreciate by heart your feelings for "Ahinsa".
                             
                            I would only request you to explain me first what is "Ahinsa" as understood by you and as propounded in Jainism. I don't know what is your level of knowing principles of Jainism and the depth of it, but I would certainly appreciate if you can elaborate or explain your views of "Ahinsa" even in a layman's terms.
                             
                            I have noted your contentions seriously but I also need to clarify first on term of "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa" before we embark into a healthy discussion on these issues.
                             
                            I hope you would take the subject seriously and for betterment of the Jain community.
                             
                            Regards and awaiting your first reply to define "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa".
                             
                            Vijay Mehta
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:15 AM
                            Subject: [JainList] Re: [jainsamachar] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

                            Jai Jinendra:

                            Milk doesn't kill cows only, it starves calves (babies) to death without mother's milk. The calves are tortured and slaughtered in the veal industry. And how about bacteria’s produced and killed in meat and stinky bodies of dead animals, does this not produce and kill more lives than 'Kandmul'?

                            So called Jains who consume Dairy, poultry; who use Leather, silk, wool, varakh should stay away from temple until they learn basic Jainism and understand what is 'Ahimsa';  this will help prevent all kind of 'Asatnas' being practiced in all the temples and sthanaks, every day. Instruments like 'Tabla' and 'Dhol', which contains leather of innocent animals who were cruelly slaughtered, should be removed not only from temples, but any functions where 'stavans' are being sing. If 'Upvas' and 'Ektana' are the jain believes, then why 'Bhathu' and 'Swamivatsalya' are offered in the temple using Ghee and Sweets from cow's milk whose calves were slaughtered?

                            Now it's time to put our thoughts into actions. Mahavir's follower's should initiate to follow the true path of 'Ahimsa' without any fear of ‘social status’ or ‘nutrition’.

                            Please don't delay, remember the animal's cannot wait any longer and they do not deserve to suffer for one more second for something, which is nothing but our wrong conception.

                            All the best in your first attempt towards none-violence

                            Jai Jinendra

                            Ameer Sanghvi.

                          • AMEER. SANGHVI
                            Dear Vijay bhai, Jaijinendra Unfortunately with my poor knowledge and education of religion I won t be able to explain you the difference between Hinsa and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 13, 2003
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                              Dear Vijay bhai,
                              Jaijinendra

                              Unfortunately with my poor knowledge and education of religion I won't be able to explain you the difference between 'Hinsa' and 'Ahinsa'

                              All I know and do is I put my self in others shoes and feel their feeling. So can you do the same, for instance�if you think that it is painful, unbearable and humiliating to�be injected with hormones at least�3rice a day and to bear babies for 5-6 years continuosly, being milked with machine atleast twice a day and that dirty humiliating stench inside the crowded dairy shelters�that do not make you comfortable for a minute only and you have to spend your entire life in there, without seeing the sunlight or freez to deth in winter and boil to vapour during summer, seeing your babies saperated from you the very next minute they're born, having big and heavy utaruses which cause pain and infection and how about being dragged at the sloughter houses and being skinned hanging upside down, when you're still concious. Notice you will not be benefited despit of all this happening to you. I've sensored alot, the reality is more horror and terrorizing than this. Anyhow, even a thoug of these shakes you up, now consider what an experience those speech animals are going through who can't even complaint to their mother of what they are going through. I'm trying to make you feel of their pain and agoney.

                              After knowing and sensing all of this a true human wouldn and should not be worried toomuch about 'Hinsa'� and 'Ahinsa'. If you ask for my opinion, then just give up dairy, leather, silk, honey and wool. No need to worry about hinsa or ahinsa

                              The only best thing I know about Jainism is, none of the Tirthankars. Siddhas or Scriptures have ever advocated dairy or leather industries. Know for sure, by giving up all of the above you're not commiting any crime and that's for sure.

                              If you beleive in Jain Siddhant, then remember that what goes around, comes around. By supporting above activities one may acumulate enough karmas to born as a cow and go through, what they have made other animals go through.

                              Please don't feel upset, if my answer were not of any help to you. I have just tried to explain you that how do I see the world and what do I think about it.

                              Michhami Dukadam.

                              Ameer Sanghvi.

                              Vijay Mehta wrote:

                              Dear Ameer Sanghvi,
                              Jai Jinendra,
                              I appreciate by heart your feelings for "Ahinsa".
                              I would only request you to explain me first what is "Ahinsa" as understood by you and as propounded in Jainism. I don't know what is your level of knowing principles of Jainism and the depth of it, but I would certainly appreciate if you can elaborate or explain your views of "Ahinsa" even in a layman's terms.
                              I have noted your contentions seriously but I also need to clarify first on term of "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa" before we embark into a healthy discussion on these issues.
                              I hope you would take the subject seriously and for betterment of the Jain community.
                              Regards and awaiting your first reply to define "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa".
                              Vijay Mehta
                              <
                            • Vijay Mehta
                              Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi, Jai Jinendra, I am happy that you confessed without any hesitatation that your posses poor knowledge and education of religion. I would
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 14, 2003
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                                Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi,
                                 
                                Jai Jinendra,
                                 
                                I am happy that you confessed without any hesitatation that your posses poor knowledge and education of religion. I would not therefore discuss the issue which involves more complex terms for Kashaya and Leshya and Mithyatva in terms of Karma Bandh.
                                 
                                I would like to know the answer from the participants and from you on the following
                                 
                                Q: 1  :    Given full facts of Hinsa involved in our daily life which is more henous than drinking milk are you ready to give up those activity, use etc.? 
                                 
                                Q: 2   :   If answer to the above question is no then are you selective of hinsa or ahinsa?
                                 
                                Q:3    :   During my long association with Sadhu M.S. and attending Pravachana hundreds of time, they never uttered a single word on Hinsa in drinking milk in the way described in this forum. The only time they advise is to give up "Vigai" and that too since it is responsible for "Vikaar" in our mind. Do you think that they are totally ignorant about the hinsa involved in drinking milk? Or they are purposely not saying a word on it? What is your view on this?
                                 
                                Q.4    :     If you remember the story of Shalibhadra who in his previous birth made "Supatra Daan" of Kheer to Sadhu M.S. Did he committed Hinsa?
                                 
                                Q.5    :    Gautam Swami - 1st Gandhar of Mahavir Bhagwan gave "Kheer" to 500 Tapas Muni who had taken diksha. Does that involve Hinsa.?
                                 
                                Q.6    :    What would you call a person who instead of looking at the root cause of mis-handling of animals tries a different way of giving up milk products and allow this mis-handling of animals to continue?
                                 
                                Q.7    :     What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and state himself to be a true jain? 
                                 
                                Q. 8     :    The reasons for Karma Bandh are a) Mithyatva, b) Avirti, c) Kashay and d) yoga. Where would one put "Hinsa" among them and how?
                                 
                                Now for the participants,
                                 
                                Regards,
                                 
                                Vijay Mehta
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 2:20 AM
                                Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: [jainsamachar] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

                                Dear Vijay bhai,
                                Jaijinendra

                                Unfortunately with my poor knowledge and education of religion I won't be able to explain you the difference between 'Hinsa' and 'Ahinsa'

                                All I know and do is I put my self in others shoes and feel their feeling. So can you do the same, for instance if you think that it is painful, unbearable and humiliating to be injected with hormones at least 3rice a day and to bear babies for 5-6 years continuosly, being milked with machine atleast twice a day and that dirty humiliating stench inside the crowded dairy shelters that do not make you comfortable for a minute only and you have to spend your entire life in there, without seeing the sunlight or freez to deth in winter and boil to vapour during summer, seeing your babies saperated from you the very next minute they're born, having big and heavy utaruses which cause pain and infection and how about being dragged at the sloughter houses and being skinned hanging upside down, when you're still concious. Notice you will not be benefited despit of all this happening to you. I've sensored alot, the reality is more horror and terrorizing than this. Anyhow, even a thoug of these shakes you up, now consider what an experience those speech animals are going through who can't even complaint to their mother of what they are going through. I'm trying to make you feel of their pain and agoney.

                                After knowing and sensing all of this a true human wouldn and should not be worried toomuch about 'Hinsa'  and 'Ahinsa'. If you ask for my opinion, then just give up dairy, leather, silk, honey and wool. No need to worry about hinsa or ahinsa

                                The only best thing I know about Jainism is, none of the Tirthankars. Siddhas or Scriptures have ever advocated dairy or leather industries. Know for sure, by giving up all of the above you're not commiting any crime and that's for sure.

                                If you beleive in Jain Siddhant, then remember that what goes around, comes around. By supporting above activities one may acumulate enough karmas to born as a cow and go through, what they have made other animals go through.

                                Please don't feel upset, if my answer were not of any help to you. I have just tried to explain you that how do I see the world and what do I think about it.

                                Michhami Dukadam.

                                Ameer Sanghvi.

                                 Vijay Mehta wrote:

                                Dear Ameer Sanghvi,
                                 
                                Jai Jinendra,
                                 
                                I appreciate by heart your feelings for "Ahinsa".
                                 
                                I would only request you to explain me first what is "Ahinsa" as understood by you and as propounded in Jainism. I don't know what is your level of knowing principles of Jainism and the depth of it, but I would certainly appreciate if you can elaborate or explain your views of "Ahinsa" even in a layman's terms.
                                 
                                I have noted your contentions seriously but I also need to clarify first on term of "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa" before we embark into a healthy discussion on these issues.
                                 
                                I hope you would take the subject seriously and for betterment of the Jain community.
                                 
                                Regards and awaiting your first reply to define "Hinsa" and "Ahinsa".
                                 
                                Vijay Mehta
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                <
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                              • AMEER. SANGHVI
                                Respected Vijay Bhai: As per your curiosity I have tried to answer your questions, however these are my and only viewpoints. However human nature and thoughts
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 14, 2003
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                                  Respected Vijay Bhai:

                                  As per your curiosity I have tried to answer your questions, however these are my and only viewpoints. However human nature and thoughts are subjected to change according to the circumstances (sanjog)

                                  I believe, that any kind of himsa is seriously heinous because that has happened to someone else other than our self and everyone is important to his or her own self. When we say more heinous or less heinous, that comes from how we look at the things and how much importance do we give to that particular species or event; so it is basically our individual way of grading the severity of himsa. And guess what the same with Ahimsa.

                                  As you know that no one but Tirthankars or Siddhas can claim to be 100% none violent (ahinsak). I would say any thing and every thing we do throughout our life, does contain himsa but they appear on a smaller or bigger scales, 95% of the time we don�t even see himsa even though it has been committed.

                                  Q: 1� :��� Given full facts of Hinsa involved in our daily life which is more heinous than drinking milk are you ready to give up those activity, use etc.?

                                  A1: As I mentioned above, I admit that I continuously do himsa, even at this very movement while responding to your email will cause me to commit numerous different himsas, you agree with that, right?However, yes I will try to stop those unnecessary activities, if provided clearer picture. If I cannot stop, I can still minimize them by moderation or by giving up unnecessary things.

                                  Q: 2���:�� If answer to the above question is no then are you selective of hinsa or ahinsa?

                                  A2: For sure my answer to Q1 is kind of yes and no; however it has been admitted that I am aware of himsa happening simultaneously. This means that I am not selective of himsa or ahimsa; this is only how practically I put my thoughts into action to give up the most and minimize himsa.

                                  Q:3��� :���During my long association with Sadhu M.S. and�attending Pravachana hundreds of time,�they�never uttered a single word on Hinsa in drinking milk in the way described in�this forum. The only�time they advise�is to give up "Vigai" and that too since it is responsible for "Vikaar" in our mind. Do you think that they are totally ignorant about the hinsa involved in drinking milk? Or they are purposely not saying a word�on it? What is your view on this?

                                  A3: You seem to have spent a lot of time with M.S., I think you know more about their nature than a person like me can guess. I can never say that they are selfish, regardless of what. You must have noticed that the dairy (mostly any company) worker or owners do not share their work procedure (trade secrets) with no one especially with sadhus, for �..reasons. Sadhus try not to get involved in sansari activities such as T.V./radio news, or news papers, friends or personal visits to industries, including dairies and farms. Also sadhus reside in India only, where most of the people had (until past few years) never paid any interest in other activities than barbaric hypocrisy and social status. The only hot news everyone knows is which film star has the most expensive car and house and who is having affair with whom (specially in the neighborhood). Food production, nutrition, diet and health were time pass activities, limited to the high society only.

                                  Anyhow my point is, any sadhu has merely no idea of torturing, sick and ill treatments to the speechless and helpless animals, including babies. They also have learned and accepted some barbaric tradition from their family life (sansarik life, before diksha) including milk as a part of daily diet. All they knew is cows (as �Gau mata�) and other animals were treated as family members (in prehistoric time sometime), then there is no reason for Sadhus to preach that don�t consume milk products, cause logically anyone is entitled to their mother�s milk, correct?

                                  Q.4��� :���� If you remember the story of Shalibhadra who in his previous birth made "Supatra Daan" of Kheer to Sadhu M.S. Did he committed Hinsa?

                                  A4: I do not know any thing about that time so I rather should not say or even guess a judgment for that heavenly soul.

                                  However the following is my opinion, advocating his innocence or circumstances.

                                  (a) In that time, there was no existence of business such as dairy where cows were suffering and tortured like in any city bus of India. (b) He was a kid, neither did his parents teach him of all these nor he had internet and other media access to acquire knowledge from around the world like we do. So even if he did commit a crime, this does not provide any excuse for us, specially after all these ongoing exchanging of information. (c) If someone would still like to use his excuse and try to commit it, then it�s their choice, but then their mother has to work like Shalibhadra�s mom and that person then needs to do �Supatra Daan� to repeat the history.

                                  Q.5��� :��� Gautam Swami - 1st Gandhar of Mahavir Bhagwan gave "Kheer" to 500 Tapas Muni who had taken diksha. Does that involve Hinsa.?

                                  A5: How can humans like us think to judge the karma theory of this liberated labdhidhari soul? Again in �Gautam swami�s ras�, there�s no mention of cruel and ill treatment to animals, matterfact I�ve seen paitings of Jain munis and Arihangs surrounded by lions, cows, goats and shravak-shravikas. Honestly we rather not go in that discussion, to create or to built an impression of Supremes is also a form of ninda and violence in my characteristics.

                                  Q.6��� :��� What would you call a person who instead of looking at the root cause of mis-handling of animals tries a different way of giving up milk products and allow this mis-handling of animals to continue?

                                  A6: (a) giving up milk product automatically cuts-off over 67% of financial support to the miss handlers (remember meat is sold only once Vs. milk is sold daily, that is a bigger and a long-term source of income)(b) The person who has given up milk products is to me an initiator of his/her own journey towards intended �ahimsa� and less bad karmas (better then those who do every thing bad + consume milk product, because every single thing adds up in the real world). (c) Believe it or not a person with intention of ahimsa will eventually make his ways to pure none violence, it is just a matter of time. (d) One has to start being honest and practical somewhere and to give up milk products is more than just a better start (�To get somewhere one should start from somewhere�)

                                  So now you know, what I would call that person?

                                  Q.7��� : ��� What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and�state himself to be a true Jain?�

                                  A7: (a) The true Jain scholars should know that �Atma� never dies, you might see people as older or elder by their physical look; however their atma�s reality can be the other way around. (b) good or bad imprints (sanskar) do no have to wait for a body to get older, they start showing up at the time of a specific karma uday. (c) I would greet and hug that brave heart, who dares to speak up against barbaric and hypocrite oldies, (d) If elders knew or followed the true Jainism then they should have had initiated with diksha or should have achieved moksh by now. (e) Wrong is wrong, it does not have any age barrier, other wise Kans, Ravan and Duryodhn were our elders, more knowledgeable and wise then all of us in today�s date. We should have followed their footsteps. (f) Humanity & none-violence can be principles of Jainism, but not owned or trade marks of Jains or �Elder Jains� only, alot of my Jain friends do consume meat or work in the fast-food, their parents have always took proud of their kids. These parents are elder Jains and knowledgeable more than the young generation. (g) I belong to several animal welfare organizations and most of the activists I know, are White, blacks, Italian, Mexican (again none Jains can be more noble and humble then Jain born hypocrites). Only people (older or elder) deserve respect, who are open to accept the truth and new ideas).

                                  Q. 8 ��� :��� The reasons for Karma Bandh are a) Mithyatva, b) Avirti, c) Kashay and d) yoga. Where would one put "Hinsa" among them and how?

                                  A8:I put himsa everywhere (how? It should be self-explanatory by now), other than Moksha.

                                  I believe that to born, as a Jain is not a big deal, Moksha is the only achievement to me.

                                  I have tried to answer your questions. Hope you got your answers as expected.

                                  Jai Jinendra

                                  Ameer Sanghvi

                                • Vijay Mehta
                                  Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi, Jai Jinendra, I am giving comments on your answers. Regard, Vijay Mehta Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 9:15 AM Subject: Re:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 15, 2003
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                                    Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi,
                                     
                                    Jai Jinendra,
                                     
                                    I am giving comments on your answers.
                                     
                                    Regard,
                                     
                                    Vijay Mehta
                                     
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 9:15 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: [jainsamachar] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

                                    Respected Vijay Bhai:

                                     

                                    As per your curiosity I have tried to answer your questions, however these are my and only viewpoints. However human nature and thoughts are subjected to change according to the circumstances (sanjog)

                                     

                                    I believe, that any kind of himsa is seriously heinous because that has happened to someone else other than our self and everyone is important to his or her own self. When we say more heinous or less heinous, that comes from how we look at the things and how much importance do we give to that particular species or event; so it is basically our individual way of grading the severity of himsa. And guess what the same with Ahimsa.

                                     

                                    As you know that no one but Tirthankars or Siddhas can claim to be 100% none violent (ahinsak). I would say any thing and every thing we do throughout our life, does contain himsa but they appear on a smaller or bigger scales, 95% of the time we don’t even see himsa even though it has been committed.

                                     

                                    Q: 1  :    Given full facts of Hinsa involved in our daily life which is more heinous than drinking milk are you ready to give up those activity, use etc.?

                                     

                                    A1: As I mentioned above, I admit that I continuously do himsa, even at this very movement while responding to your email will cause me to commit numerous different himsas, you agree with that, right?  However, yes I will try to stop those unnecessary activities, if provided clearer picture. If I cannot stop, I can still minimize them by moderation or by giving up unnecessary things.

                                     

                                    Comments:   I am giving you only few of the instances where hinsa more henous than even drinking milk are involved.

                                     

                                    a)    Taking meals after sunset: Any need to eat after sunseet when the whole day is there for eating. It is said to be first door to Narak Gati. Are you ready to give up eating after sunset?

                                     

                                    b)    Drinking un-boiled ,non-filtered and vasi (spent night and not filtered on the day of use)  water: This is absolutely possible and no one interested in giving up hinsa can say they cannot give up.

                                     

                                    c)    Use of electricity : We cannot say that we cannot live without it. We have in front of us Sadhu M.S. who leaves without electricity. Do I need to explain how henous it is when electricity is produced? Panchedriya Jiva in water are cut through the blades and the water turns red. The blades of fans are required to be cleaned frequently at an interval of 1 hour. Secondly, using electricity itself is killing those anant jiva of teukaya.

                                     

                                    d)    Use of Motor Car, planes, rails etc. : Apart from use of electricity involved, there are hinsa of Tiryanch Jiva on roads. Further, the whole proceess right from digging of iron ore - prithvikaya jiva to making of steel and ultimately making of car is responsible for hinsa at all the stages and that too for not innumerable (asankhya) but Anant jivas.

                                     

                                    e)    Use of Agricultural Products: This would now me more similar to milk in many ways. The use of pesticides which is now everywhere that kills are insects that are triendriya or chourendriya jivas.This hinsa is only process based and can be changed. There are other hinsa in agriculture like for prithvikaya jiva - teukaya jiva etc.

                                     

                                    f)    Use of Electrical appartus : in particular Fan - Air conditioners where Vayukaya Jiva are killed. Now don't tell that we canot live without these.

                                     

                                    g)    Use of Gold, silver, diamonds etc.: They are certainly not useful for life. They are all bodies of Prithvikaya Jiva. Secondly, mining them also involves exploitations of human labour to a great extent. Everybody is aware of how human labour are exploited in coal mines. In fact they are taken as classic example of human exploitation.

                                     

                                    h)    Use of Marbles, Granties etc in house: Do we still want to say that it is necessary for life? The hinsa involved are right from killing Prithvikaya Jiva to exploitation of labour, use of electricity etc in manufacturing etc.

                                     

                                    This way I can give examples of all the hinsa which are not necessary for our life and we still don't give up.

                                     

                                    Our Tirthankar Bhagwan has shown us the way how to leave avoiding all hinsa stated above and that is the way of Charitra Marg.

                                     

                                    Q: 2   :   If answer to the above question is no then are you selective of hinsa or ahinsa?

                                     

                                    A2: For sure my answer to Q1 is kind of yes and no; however it has been admitted that I am aware of himsa happening simultaneously. This means that I am not selective of himsa or ahimsa; this is only how practically I put my thoughts into action to give up the most and minimize himsa. (emapasis supplied)

                                     

                                    Comment:

                                     

                                    Tell me how can one avoid hinsa when ones understanding of hinsa is on a primary stage and has no indepth knowledge of concept of hinsa as propounded by Tirthankars. Do you know that in relative term even killing a human being would not be hinsa?  Do you want to say that you are aware of all the relative concepts of hinsa and ahinsa. I can give you an example where again in a relative term saving a life will be hinsa.

                                     

                                    Q:3    :   During my long association with Sadhu M.S. and attending Pravachana hundreds of time, they never uttered a single word on Hinsa in drinking milk in the way described in this forum. The only time they advise is to give up "Vigai" and that too since it is responsible for "Vikaar" in our mind. Do you think that they are totally ignorant about the hinsa involved in drinking milk? Or they are purposely not saying a word on it? What is your view on this?

                                     

                                    A3: You seem to have spent a lot of time with M.S., I think you know more about their nature than a person like me can guess. I can never say that they are selfish, regardless of what. You must have noticed that the dairy (mostly any company) worker or owners do not share their work procedure (trade secrets) with no one especially with sadhus, for …..reasons. Sadhus try not to get involved in sansari activities such as T.V./radio news, or news papers, friends or personal visits to industries, including dairies and farms. Also sadhus reside in India only, where most of the people had (until past few years) never paid any interest in other activities than barbaric hypocrisy and social status. The only hot news everyone knows is which film star has the most expensive car and house and who is having affair with whom (specially in the neighborhood). Food production, nutrition, diet and health were time pass activities, limited to the high society only.(emapasis supplied)

                                     

                                     Anyhow my point is, any sadhu has merely no idea of torturing, sick and ill treatments to the speechless and helpless animals, including babies. They also have learned and accepted some barbaric tradition from their family life (sansarik life, before diksha) including milk as a part of daily diet. All they knew is cows (as ‘Gau mata’) and other animals were treated as family members (in prehistoric time sometime), then there is no reason for Sadhus to preach that don’t consume milk products, cause logically anyone is entitled to their mother’s milk, correct? (emapasis supplied)

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                     

                                    Dear Ameer you does not seem to be in touch with Sadhu M.S. and therefore your misunderstanding for them is not out of place, though totally wrong.

                                     

                                    Sadhu M.S. a studied one knows more about our Sansar than we ourselves knows about it. As far as what you referred to as barbaric hypocrisy you referred to, I would say that is only your shallow vision of social observance. Do you know that we are stopped from committing most serious crimes only because ther is social expectations and social setup. You call it barbaric hypocrisy, I say we are saved because of them. Otherwise look today's situation. Eating before sunset was not considered a special dharma but an ordinary general dharma all Jains would follows. Now due to people like you it has become an individual dharma and there are handful of Jains who obey this. 

                                     

                                    Q.4    :     If you remember the story of Shalibhadra who in his previous birth made "Supatra Daan" of Kheer to Sadhu M.S. Did he committed Hinsa?

                                     

                                    A4: I do not know any thing about that time so I rather should not say or even guess a judgment for that heavenly soul.

                                     

                                    However the following is my opinion, advocating his innocence or circumstances.

                                    (a) In that time, there was no existence of business such as dairy where cows were suffering and tortured like in any city bus of India. (b) He was a kid, neither did his parents teach him of all these nor he had internet and other media access to acquire knowledge from around the world like we do. So even if he did commit a crime, this does not provide any excuse for us, specially after all these ongoing exchanging of information. (c) If someone would still like to use his excuse and try to commit it, then it’s their choice, but then their mother has to work like Shalibhadra’s mom and that person then needs to do ‘Supatra Daan’ to repeat the history. (emphasis supplied)

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                    The business of milking cows was very much present even in those days. We have one creed known as Goval - who carries cows etc for their food in jungle.  Recall, when Mahavir Bhagwan was in dhyan and Goval asks him to take care of his cows.

                                     

                                    You have access to internet and media, right? Give me explanation for hinsa I am asking for. Why you say that you are ignorance about religion. I would appreciate if you can find answer on hinsa and ahinsa on internet. All the sights that you visit can give you a preliminary views of hinsa/ahinsa and not an indepth study.

                                     

                                     

                                    Q.5    :    Gautam Swami - 1st Gandhar of Mahavir Bhagwan gave "Kheer" to 500 Tapas Muni who had taken diksha. Does that involve Hinsa.?

                                     

                                    A5: How can humans like us think to judge the karma theory of this liberated labdhidhari soul? Again in “Gautam swami’s ras”, there’s no mention of cruel and ill treatment to animals, matterfact I’ve seen paitings of Jain munis and Arihangs surrounded by lions, cows, goats and shravak-shravikas. Honestly we rather not go in that discussion, to create or to built an impression of Supremes is also a form of ninda and violence in my characteristics.

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                     

                                    Definately, I do now want you to do ninda - critic, but does that arouse sufficient curiosity in your mind?

                                     

                                    Q.6    :    What would you call a person who instead of looking at the root cause of mis-handling of animals tries a different way of giving up milk products and allow this mis-handling of animals to continue?

                                     

                                    A6: (a) giving up milk product automatically cuts-off over 67% of financial support to the miss handlers (remember meat is sold only once Vs. milk is sold daily, that is a bigger and a long-term source of income)  (b) The person who has given up milk products is to me an initiator of his/her own journey towards intended ‘ahimsa’ and less bad karmas (better then those who do every thing bad + consume milk product, because every single thing adds up in the real world). (c) Believe it or not a person with intention of ahimsa will eventually make his ways to pure none violence, it is just a matter of time. (d) One has to start being honest and practical somewhere and to give up milk products is more than just a better start (‘To get somewhere one should start from somewhere’)

                                     

                                    So now you know, what I would call that person?

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                     

                                    You have not answered my question. The root cause of hinsa that is believed in drinking milk is in mis-handling of animals. To stop these there are ways and means and one of which you said is stop drinking milk. But will that really stop mis-handling? The people who runs dairy are doing it for profit BUT it it their GREED which makes them to mishandle the animals. Can you stop GREED of those people. Mind that GREED has spoiled noblest of profession like lawyers, doctors etc.

                                     

                                    I am certainly not in favour of exploitation of animals when they are mis-handled. The hinsa involved here is "PAROKSHA" and not "PRATYAKSHA". Though I am not in favour of even "PAROKSHA"  hinsa but the methodology to handle them does not lie in only stop drinking milk. Yes, use milk only where necessary for your body. Don't eat chocolates made up of milk. Don't eat sweets made up of milk but stop using it not because there is Hinsa per se in drinking milk but because it gives reason for dairy people to exploit animals. And at the same time stop using all such products where PAROKSHA hinsa are involved of the same intensity which you find in dairy. Then only one can say that giving up milk is for the hinsa that is seen there. Otherwise, it would be only a shield one is using to carry on with bigger hinsa only because they are not known at large or even to himself.

                                     

                                    Q.7    :     What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and state himself to be a true Jain? 

                                     

                                     A7: (a) The true Jain scholars should know that ‘Atma’ never dies, you might see people as older or elder by their physical look; however their atma’s reality can be the other way around. (b) good or bad imprints (sanskar) do no have to wait for a body to get older, they start showing up at the time of a specific karma uday. (c) I would greet and hug that brave heart, who dares to speak up against barbaric and hypocrite oldies, (d) If elders knew or followed the true Jainism then they should have had initiated with diksha or should have achieved moksh by now. (e) Wrong is wrong, it does not have any age barrier, other wise Kans, Ravan and Duryodhn were our elders, more knowledgeable and wise then all of us in today’s date. We should have followed their footsteps. (f) Humanity & none-violence can be principles of Jainism, but not owned or trade marks of Jains or “Elder Jains” only, alot of my Jain friends do consume meat or work in the fast-food, their parents have always took proud of their kids. These parents are elder Jains and knowledgeable more than the young generation. (g) I belong to several animal welfare organizations and most of the activists I know, are White, blacks, Italian, Mexican (again none Jains can be more noble and humble then Jain born hypocrites). Only people (older or elder) deserve respect, who are open to accept the truth and new ideas). (emphasis supplied)

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                     

                                    Will you explain what you meant by "barbaric and hypocrite oldies"? It seems you are more uncomfortable with elders, may for reasons. Using such words for elders may be in age also shown how disrespectful you are to others. Do you know that even sometime age is also a consideration for giving respect. I would cite what Nandibhushan M.S. discussed with me only few days back. He said that look our Upadhyay Vimalsen M.S. calls your dad as "Anraj" (name of my father) because they are of same age and also because your dad is Shravak whereas he is M.S. But I am calling your dad as "Anrajji" because though he is Shravak and offers me Guru Vandan, he is elder to me. He was explaining me the term "Vidhivat  Guru Pujanm"  as one of foru reason for Punayanubandhi Punya. 

                                     

                                    Q. 8     :    The reasons for Karma Bandh are a) Mithyatva, b) Avirti, c) Kashay and d) yoga. Where would one put "Hinsa" among them and how?

                                     

                                    A8:  I put himsa everywhere (how? It should be self-explanatory by now), other than Moksha.

                                     

                                    Comments:

                                     

                                    That is what shows immaturity in your knowledge. If you see hinsa in every place other than Moksha then how you would expect Moksha?

                                     

                                    I believe that to born, as a Jain is not a big deal, Moksha is the only achievement to me.

                                     

                                    Comment:

                                     

                                    You said that to born as a Jain is not a big deal shown how ignorant you are. The most precious things which are not easily available to any Jiva are given in the following orders:

                                     

                                    1)    To take birth as a human being.

                                     

                                    2)    To take birth as a human being in Arya Kul.

                                     

                                    3)    To take birth as a human being in Arya Kul and Jain family.

                                     

                                    4)    To get chance to listen to Jin Vani.(Pravachana)

                                     

                                    5)    To accept Saiyam.

                                     

                                    And here you say that to born as a Jain is not a big deal.

                                     


                                    I have tried to answer your questions. Hope you got your answers as expected.

                                     

                                    Jai Jinendra

                                    Ameer Sanghvi


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                                  • AMEER. SANGHVI
                                    Respected Vijay bhai, Jaijindnera! Thank you so much for a lot of info re: Karma theory and Jainism. However I believe that our discussion has been stretched
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 15, 2003
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                                      Respected Vijay bhai,

                                      Jaijindnera!

                                      Thank you so much for a lot of info re: Karma theory and Jainism. However I believe that our discussion has been stretched way out of our topic, I will conclude this ongoing discussion with the following.

                                      My goal was only

                                      : The only reason I participated in this discussion was to point out some of the current prevailing cruelties in the animal world (�Human terrorism on animals�, promoted by the mankind, regardless of the race or religion discrimination). We are responsible at a greater level, for supporting most of them particularly by consuming and promoting cruel, animal tested and animal derivative products.

                                      However I have learnt some more about the Jainism and I thank you for doing this favor to me.

                                      Before I respond to your comments, let me once again say it. For some reason I do have some evidences to believe that somewhere deep in our heart our ego stops us from accepting the truth and word coming from others mouth, because that way we get no attention and others do. If you all have the same goal then result should be more fun then other things. It will not hurt to any of us to stop animal cruelties. We all have been talking and discussing since the time when language(s) were invented. Action is something, which used to happen in the stone edges and is about time that we all combine our discussions and actions to reach a principal goal.

                                      Please consider moving back to our original point of dairy industry, we do not need to do any thing special for those cows, calves and goats. We can simply stop using their milk, which is for their babies, like our mom's milk was for us. This way we are not doing any special favour to them, we are just preventing our selves from acumulating more bad karmas. No milk and no leather are the best solution to cut down on the profit of dairy and slaughter industries. Soy milk, if produced by the same companies, should not be our next interest of alternative.

                                      Now let me respond to Vijay Bhai's comments.(This will sound personal to others, so please disregard the following because it is kind of that and not everyone will find it interesting or informative, I appolize, if you have received this e-mail and it has caused you any krodh or karma. Jai jindndra)

                                      In Q1 you have provided commonly known forms of himsa, I am a big time moderator and I do follow 1st

                                      I do follow (a) and (b), for (c) (d) (f) I follow the rule of moderation, (e) I am pure vegan, mostly I try my best to discourage my friends and family from using those products.(g) I do not posses none of this, (h) In U.S. most of these material is not used for several reasons.

                                      Q3 My all respects to all the Maharaj saheb and Maha satiji. As I told you I have not spend any time with them, unlike you. However they have always been respectful to me, they are the true leaders and followers of the Jainism. They have initiated with diksha, which I always lookup to. I did not mean to underestimate their knowledge and power, all I figured was their concentration towards mukti from sansar may have precluded them from getting the true info about how do the dairy industries work in today's date. People also do not talk about something bad they do and they know.

                                      Q4 (you said ) The business of milking cows was very much present even in those days. We have one creed known as Goval - who carries cows etc for their food in jungle. Recall, when Mahavir Bhagwan was in dhyan and Goval asks him to take care of his cows.

                                      Yes you are right the milking business and govals from the ancient time, But pleas refer back to my words, I said the dairy industry and the cruelty happening in the current time. In the old times cows were family members as I mentioned earlier.

                                      Q7 How could you say that I disrespect my elders. U unfortunately I did not spend much time with my grand parents, so I look at everyone with the same respect who are of their age. My family and friends are proud of me. Specially my professors and coworkers who are way older than me are more than satisfied with the respect I give them. I do have some of my friends and organization members who are retired and they are my buddies.

                                      But remember your e-mail was particularly defending someone�s ego of knowing the religion. Ability to accept the truth and change are must required qualities in everyone regardless of age or religion issue.

                                      : (your question was) What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and state himself to be a true Jain?

                                      In the beginning of the question you have shown your disrespect towards the person whom you are trying to judge by saying (You said-1) what would you call that person (I would say respect him for whatever he/she is) and (You said-2) when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and state himself to be a true Jain . (You have not provided any criteria). The elder you are defending seems to be scared of being embarrassed by a younger one, If you know that someone is talking about the current burning issues which is cruel, wild and needs immediate attention, then where does the need of preaching the Jainism come from . As long as you have compassion in your heart, you are ready to sacrifice your indulgence to fix the problem, then you have the right of the way. I think that person (you are criticizing) is right he did not mean to prove anyone right or wrong. Since he is in direction of fixing the problem, his request and advise probably deserves more and immediate attention than a preacher. You your self know when the house is under fire, you are at the mercy of a non-Jain, younger (may be ugly looking and disrespectful to some) fireman. Here my intention was to focus on needs of the time and not only to hold on to knowledge or principles of any religion. Why do you think that someone who does not know the Jaijnism will ever claim to be true Jain. However I would say, if some one does, he is building up his own karma's account and let him deal with his/her own account. going back to Barbaric and Hypocrite, if someone wants to stick to his/her own false values that's hypocrite, barbaric is for an old person with false values. Remember every one grows older with the time, not every one is perfect or true Jain, in short when Hypocrite grows old, they are old hypocrites. "Please do not misinterpret, if there is still any confusion, the best thing then is to disregard the whole paragraph."

                                      Q8 I think you forgot the declaration in my previous E-mail, let me repeat "I do not have much knowledge of Jainism". Yes I see himsa in every place other than Moksha, how will attain it, I do not know yet.

                                      I�m grateful that I was born in a Jain family and all the qualities which every one is starving to adapt are basic and part of the Jain culture. What I said was, it is not appropriate to have an ego or impression that I was born in the Jain family, now I�m over certain age and now I am elder so people must listen and respect me and my knowledge and moksh is my destiny.

                                      Jainism does believe in Swarg and Narak gati and anyone can get in to either of the door regardless of Jain or non-Jain borns. So again to born in a Jainfamily is not a final destination. You couls be born in any other caste of religion and achieve moksh by your deeds, the only difference will be that it may not be called moksh.

                                      Jai Jinendra.

                                      Ameer Sanghvi

                                       

                                       

                                       Vijay Mehta <vmc_vijay@...> wrote:

                                      Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi,
                                       
                                      Jai Jinendra,
                                       
                                      I am giving comments on your answers.
                                       
                                      Regard,
                                       
                                      Vijay Mehta
                                       
                                      Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 9:15 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [JainList] Re: [jainsamachar] Which involves more hinsa - using Milk or Kandmul ?

                                      Respected Vijay Bhai:

                                       

                                      As per your curiosity I have tried to answer your questions, however these are my and only viewpoints. However human nature and thoughts are subjected to change according to the circumstances (sanjog)

                                       

                                      I believe, that any kind of himsa is seriously heinous because that has happened to someone else other than our self and everyone is important to his or her own self. When we say more heinous or less heinous, that comes from how we look at the things and how much importance do we give to that particular species or event; so it is basically our individual way of grading the severity of himsa. And guess what the same with Ahimsa.

                                       

                                      As you know that no one but Tirthankars or Siddhas can claim to be 100% none violent (ahinsak). I would say any thing and every thing we do throughout our life, does contain himsa but they appear on a smaller or bigger scales, 95% of the time we don�t even see himsa even though it has been committed.

                                       

                                      Q: 1  :    Given full facts of Hinsa involved in our daily life which is more heinous than drinking milk are you ready to give up those activity, use etc.?

                                       

                                      A1: As I mentioned above, I admit that I continuously do himsa, even at this very movement while responding to your email will cause me to commit numerous different himsas, you agree with that, right?  However, yes I will try to stop those unnecessary activities, if provided clearer picture. If I cannot stop, I can still minimize them by moderation or by giving up unnecessary things.

                                       

                                      Comments:   I am giving you only few of the instances where hinsa more henous than even drinking milk are involved.

                                       

                                      a)    Taking meals after sunset: Any need to eat after sunseet when the whole day is there for eating. It is said to be first door to Narak Gati. Are you ready to give up eating after sunset?

                                       

                                      b)    Drinking un-boiled ,non-filtered and vasi (spent night and not filtered on the day of use)  water: This is absolutely possible and no one interested in giving up hinsa can say they cannot give up.

                                       

                                      c)    Use of electricity : We cannot say that we cannot live without it. We have in front of us Sadhu M.S. who leaves without electricity. Do I need to explain how henous it is when electricity is produced? Panchedriya Jiva in water are cut through the blades and the water turns red. The blades of fans are required to be cleaned frequently at an interval of 1 hour. Secondly, using electricity itself is killing those anant jiva of teukaya.

                                       

                                      d)    Use of Motor Car, planes, rails etc. : Apart from use of electricity involved, there are hinsa of Tiryanch Jiva on roads. Further, the whole proceess right from digging of iron ore - prithvikaya jiva to making of steel and ultimately making of car is responsible for hinsa at all the stages and that too for not innumerable (asankhya) but Anant jivas.

                                       

                                      e)    Use of Agricultural Products: This would now me more similar to milk in many ways. The use of pesticides which is now everywhere that kills are insects that are triendriya or chourendriya jivas.This hinsa is only process based and can be changed. There are other hinsa in agriculture like for prithvikaya jiva - teukaya jiva etc.

                                       

                                      f)    Use of Electrical appartus : in particular Fan - Air conditioners where Vayukaya Jiva are killed. Now don't tell that we canot live without these.

                                       

                                      g)    Use of Gold, silver, diamonds etc.: They are certainly not useful for life. They are all bodies of Prithvikaya Jiva. Secondly, mining them also involves exploitations of human labour to a great extent. Everybody is aware of how human labour are exploited in coal mines. In fact they are taken as classic example of human exploitation.

                                       

                                      h)    Use of Marbles, Granties etc in house: Do we still want to say that it is necessary for life? The hinsa involved are right from killing Prithvikaya Jiva to exploitation of labour, use of electricity etc in manufacturing etc.

                                       

                                      This way I can give examples of all the hinsa which are not necessary for our life and we still don't give up.

                                       

                                      Our Tirthankar Bhagwan has shown us the way how to leave avoiding all hinsa stated above and that is the way of Charitra Marg.

                                       

                                      Q: 2   :   If answer to the above question is no then are you selective of hinsa or ahinsa?

                                       

                                      A2: For sure my answer to Q1 is kind of yes and no; however it has been admitted that I am aware of himsa happening simultaneously. This means that I am not selective of himsa or ahimsa; this is only how practically I put my thoughts into action to give up the most and minimize himsa. (emapasis supplied)

                                       

                                      Comment:

                                       

                                      Tell me how can one avoid hinsa when ones understanding of hinsa is on a primary stage and has no indepth knowledge of concept of hinsa as propounded by Tirthankars. Do you know that in relative term even killing a human being would not be hinsa?  Do you want to say that you are aware of all the relative concepts of hinsa and ahinsa. I can give you an example where again in a relative term saving a life will be hinsa.

                                       

                                      Q:3    :   During my long association with Sadhu M.S. and attending Pravachana hundreds of time, they never uttered a single word on Hinsa in drinking milk in the way described in this forum. The only time they advise is to give up "Vigai" and that too since it is responsible for "Vikaar" in our mind. Do you think that they are totally ignorant about the hinsa involved in drinking milk? Or they are purposely not saying a word on it? What is your view on this?

                                       

                                      A3: You seem to have spent a lot of time with M.S., I think you know more about their nature than a person like me can guess. I can never say that they are selfish, regardless of what. You must have noticed that the dairy (mostly any company) worker or owners do not share their work procedure (trade secrets) with no one especially with sadhus, for �..reasons. Sadhus try not to get involved in sansari activities such as T.V./radio news, or news papers, friends or personal visits to industries, including dairies and farms. Also sadhus reside in India only, where most of the people had (until past few years) never paid any interest in other activities than barbaric hypocrisy and social status. The only hot news everyone knows is which film star has the most expensive car and house and who is having affair with whom (specially in the neighborhood). Food production, nutrition, diet and health were time pass activities, limited to the high society only.(emapasis supplied)

                                       

                                       Anyhow my point is, any sadhu has merely no idea of torturing, sick and ill treatments to the speechless and helpless animals, including babies. They also have learned and accepted some barbaric tradition from their family life (sansarik life, before diksha) including milk as a part of daily diet. All they knew is cows (as �Gau mata�) and other animals were treated as family members (in prehistoric time sometime), then there is no reason for Sadhus to preach that don�t consume milk products, cause logically anyone is entitled to their mother�s milk, correct? (emapasis supplied)

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                       

                                      Dear Ameer you does not seem to be in touch with Sadhu M.S. and therefore your misunderstanding for them is not out of place, though totally wrong.

                                       

                                      Sadhu M.S. a studied one knows more about our Sansar than we ourselves knows about it. As far as what you referred to as barbaric hypocrisy you referred to, I would say that is only your shallow vision of social observance. Do you know that we are stopped from committing most serious crimes only because ther is social expectations and social setup. You call it barbaric hypocrisy, I say we are saved because of them. Otherwise look today's situation. Eating before sunset was not considered a special dharma but an ordinary general dharma all Jains would follows. Now due to people like you it has become an individual dharma and there are handful of Jains who obey this. 

                                       

                                      Q.4    :     If you remember the story of Shalibhadra who in his previous birth made "Supatra Daan" of Kheer to Sadhu M.S. Did he committed Hinsa?

                                       

                                      A4: I do not know any thing about that time so I rather should not say or even guess a judgment for that heavenly soul.

                                       

                                      However the following is my opinion, advocating his innocence or circumstances.

                                      (a) In that time, there was no existence of business such as dairy where cows were suffering and tortured like in any city bus of India. (b) He was a kid, neither did his parents teach him of all these nor he had internet and other media access to acquire knowledge from around the world like we do. So even if he did commit a crime, this does not provide any excuse for us, specially after all these ongoing exchanging of information. (c) If someone would still like to use his excuse and try to commit it, then it�s their choice, but then their mother has to work like Shalibhadra�s mom and that person then needs to do �Supatra Daan� to repeat the history. (emphasis supplied)

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                      The business of milking cows was very much present even in those days. We have one creed known as Goval - who carries cows etc for their food in jungle.  Recall, when Mahavir Bhagwan was in dhyan and Goval asks him to take care of his cows.

                                       

                                      You have access to internet and media, right? Give me explanation for hinsa I am asking for. Why you say that you are ignorance about religion. I would appreciate if you can find answer on hinsa and ahinsa on internet. All the sights that you visit can give you a preliminary views of hinsa/ahinsa and not an indepth study.

                                       

                                       

                                      Q.5    :    Gautam Swami - 1st Gandhar of Mahavir Bhagwan gave "Kheer" to 500 Tapas Muni who had taken diksha. Does that involve Hinsa.?

                                       

                                      A5: How can humans like us think to judge the karma theory of this liberated labdhidhari soul? Again in �Gautam swami�s ras�, there�s no mention of cruel and ill treatment to animals, matterfact I�ve seen paitings of Jain munis and Arihangs surrounded by lions, cows, goats and shravak-shravikas. Honestly we rather not go in that discussion, to create or to built an impression of Supremes is also a form of ninda and violence in my characteristics.

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                       

                                      Definately, I do now want you to do ninda - critic, but does that arouse sufficient curiosity in your mind?

                                       

                                      Q.6    :    What would you call a person who instead of looking at the root cause of mis-handling of animals tries a different way of giving up milk products and allow this mis-handling of animals to continue?

                                       

                                      A6: (a) giving up milk product automatically cuts-off over 67% of financial support to the miss handlers (remember meat is sold only once Vs. milk is sold daily, that is a bigger and a long-term source of income)  (b) The person who has given up milk products is to me an initiator of his/her own journey towards intended �ahimsa� and less bad karmas (better then those who do every thing bad + consume milk product, because every single thing adds up in the real world). (c) Believe it or not a person with intention of ahimsa will eventually make his ways to pure none violence, it is just a matter of time. (d) One has to start being honest and practical somewhere and to give up milk products is more than just a better start (�To get somewhere one should start from somewhere�)

                                       

                                      So now you know, what I would call that person?

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                       

                                      You have not answered my question. The root cause of hinsa that is believed in drinking milk is in mis-handling of animals. To stop these there are ways and means and one of which you said is stop drinking milk. But will that really stop mis-handling? The people who runs dairy are doing it for profit BUT it it their GREED which makes them to mishandle the animals. Can you stop GREED of those people. Mind that GREED has spoiled noblest of profession like lawyers, doctors etc.

                                       

                                      I am certainly not in favour of exploitation of animals when they are mis-handled. The hinsa involved here is "PAROKSHA" and not "PRATYAKSHA". Though I am not in favour of even "PAROKSHA"  hinsa but the methodology to handle them does not lie in only stop drinking milk. Yes, use milk only where necessary for your body. Don't eat chocolates made up of milk. Don't eat sweets made up of milk but stop using it not because there is Hinsa per se in drinking milk but because it gives reason for dairy people to exploit animals. And at the same time stop using all such products where PAROKSHA hinsa are involved of the same intensity which you find in dairy. Then only one can say that giving up milk is for the hinsa that is seen there. Otherwise, it would be only a shield one is using to carry on with bigger hinsa only because they are not known at large or even to himself.

                                       

                                      Q.7    :     What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and state himself to be a true Jain? 

                                       

                                       A7: (a) The true Jain scholars should know that �Atma� never dies, you might see people as older or elder by their physical look; however their atma�s reality can be the other way around. (b) good or bad imprints (sanskar) do no have to wait for a body to get older, they start showing up at the time of a specific karma uday. (c) I would greet and hug that brave heart, who dares to speak up against barbaric and hypocrite oldies, (d) If elders knew or followed the true Jainism then they should have had initiated with diksha or should have achieved moksh by now. (e) Wrong is wrong, it does not have any age barrier, other wise Kans, Ravan and Duryodhn were our elders, more knowledgeable and wise then all of us in today�s date. We should have followed their footsteps. (f) Humanity & none-violence can be principles of Jainism, but not owned or trade marks of Jains or �Elder Jains� only, alot of my Jain friends do consume meat or work in the fast-food, their parents have always took proud of their kids. These parents are elder Jains and knowledgeable more than the young generation. (g) I belong to several animal welfare organizations and most of the activists I know, are White, blacks, Italian, Mexican (again none Jains can be more noble and humble then Jain born hypocrites). Only people (older or elder) deserve respect, who are open to accept the truth and new ideas). (emphasis supplied)

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                       

                                      Will you explain what you meant by "barbaric and hypocrite oldies"? It seems you are more uncomfortable with elders, may for reasons. Using such words for elders may be in age also shown how disrespectful you are to others. Do you know that even sometime age is also a consideration for giving respect. I would cite what Nandibhushan M.S. discussed with me only few days back. He said that look our Upadhyay Vimalsen M.S. calls your dad as "Anraj" (name of my father) because they are of same age and also because your dad is Shravak whereas he is M.S. But I am calling your dad as "Anrajji" because though he is Shravak and offers me Guru Vandan, he is elder to me. He was explaining me the term "Vidhivat  Guru Pujanm"  as one of foru reason for Punayanubandhi Punya. 

                                       

                                      Q. 8     :    The reasons for Karma Bandh are a) Mithyatva, b) Avirti, c) Kashay and d) yoga. Where would one put "Hinsa" among them and how?

                                       

                                      A8:  I put himsa everywhere (how? It should be self-explanatory by now), other than Moksha.

                                       

                                      Comments:

                                       

                                      That is what shows immaturity in your knowledge. If you see hinsa in every place other than Moksha then how you would expect Moksha?

                                       

                                      I believe that to born, as a Jain is not a big deal, Moksha is the only achievement to me.

                                       

                                      Comment:

                                       

                                      You said that to born as a Jain is not a big deal shown how ignorant you are. The most precious things which are not easily available to any Jiva are given in the following orders:

                                       

                                      1)    To take birth as a human being.

                                       

                                      2)    To take birth as a human being in Arya Kul.

                                       

                                      3)    To take birth as a human being in Arya Kul and Jain family.

                                       

                                      4)    To get chance to listen to Jin Vani.(Pravachana)

                                       

                                      5)    To accept Saiyam.

                                       

                                      And here you say that to born as a Jain is not a big deal.

                                       


                                      I have tried to answer your questions. Hope you got your answers as expected.

                                       

                                      Jai Jinendra

                                      Ameer Sanghvi


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                                    • Vijay Mehta
                                      Dear Ameer Sanghvi, Jai Jinendra, Let me sum up the mail on the issue of drinking milk. I do not wish to compare whether it is more hinsac than eating root
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 17, 2003
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                                        Dear Ameer Sanghvi,

                                        Jai Jinendra,

                                        Let me sum up the mail on the issue of drinking milk. I do not wish to compare whether it is more hinsac than eating root vegetables as I feel the question is relevant for those who wish to justify eating root vegetable by pointing out that they are vegan but do eat root vegetables. And if it is a question of discussion on Tatva, I have written ample as a layman and I cannot explain further having the barrier of language. ( I truly feel that I am not comfortable when I write in english for the subejct on jainism.)

                                        Only couples of days back I cursorely asked M.S. Shri Netranand Vijayji a disciple of Late Acharya Bhuvan Bhanusuriswarji M.S. about milk and it's origin. I describe below what he said to me.

                                        "Lord Adeshwarji while describing all the social setup for the people at the begining of 4th Era - also showed how to milk the cow and use her milk. Milk is a transformation of blood of cow. It is like excreta of her body and if not taken out from her body, she feels lot of pain and her age also reduces. Albait, the calves should first be allowed to drink as much milk as they want and the excess milk is sufficient for human being for their consumption which serves not only nutrituions value but also stops cows from the pain she has if milk is not taken out. The nutrition value of milk of cow for young children and to a large extent even elders cannot be replced by any other food. They are very essential for the human beings of 4th and 5th era whose qualities of bones are deteriorated year after year. Right now we are having "Sevart Sanghyan" a last type of most inferior quality of bones. The drinking milk has become essential for bones to be stronger for child.

                                        No doubt, we should also take into consideration any hinsa which though "Paroksha" are committed in dairy and try to stop that too. If any one stops drinking milk or milk products, that alone is not going to provide any solution to the issue.

                                        In "Trishisht Shalaka Purush" the reference is given which described how Lord Adeshwar Bhagwan showed for human kind the uses of milk and the method of milking. " (Unquote)

                                        Everyone would be aware that there are "Viniyog Pariwar" in Mumbai which is working day and night to agitate against slaughterhouses and for betterment of animals. Our contribution to any organization engaged in such activities would be more important. Our all Jain Sangh are also working in the same direction and tries to do their best to preserve the wealth in the form of precious animals from being sent to slaughter houses.

                                        Ameerbhai, as far as theory of Tatva for Ahinsa and Hinsa are concerned, I sincerely do not wanted to enter into discussion with the forum as it expects certain level of understanding and putting forth certain principles of Leshya - Kashaya etc in front of all participants would also not be proper. I gather this from few strange remarks I put in my mail for which no reaction is made. Secondly as written earlier I find it uncomfortable to discuss on Tatva in English language.

                                        My feeling for you disrespecting elders came from the words you use "barbaric hypocracy and social status" and pointing out fingers at elder: Our elders are the one from who any social values are ascended. To disregard those with "barbaric hypocracy and social status" would certainly compel me to colour my mind. May be I am wrong and I wish I am wrong.

                                        Michhami Dukkadam for all that I said which might have hurt you,

                                        Regards

                                        Vijay Mehta

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: AMEER. SANGHVI
                                        To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:01 AM
                                        Subject: [JainList] conclusion. Lets go back to the original issue


                                        Respected Vijay bhai,

                                        Jaijindnera!
                                      • sanjay jain
                                        Dear Mr Vijay Mehta, I am not going to comment on your views of the dairy industry, but please do not presume that all vegans are trying to justify their
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Feb 18, 2003
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                                          Dear Mr Vijay Mehta,

                                          I am not going to comment on your views of the dairy
                                          industry, but please do not presume that all vegans
                                          are trying to justify their eating of root vegetables.

                                          From my recollection of the discussion, we (vegans)
                                          have asked the comparison between consumption of milk
                                          to root vegetables, saying that in our opinion it is
                                          worse.

                                          Perhaps you could ask your self what would be easier
                                          to give up, roots or dairy and then say who's trying
                                          to justify them selves. If a person is able to give
                                          something up because they think it's wrong, would they
                                          not be able to give others up? (if they consume it in
                                          the first place). As far as I am concerned, I consume
                                          or not consume products as per my views. I do not need
                                          to 'justify' myself ....

                                          You are entitled to say what you think and what you
                                          think I am doing wrong, but please refrain from
                                          telling me what I think!

                                          Sanjay Jain

                                          PS - I mean this not to offend or to retalliate.... it
                                          is simply a statement...



                                          --- Vijay Mehta <vmc_vijay@...> wrote:
                                          > Dear Ameer Sanghvi,
                                          >
                                          > Jai Jinendra,
                                          >
                                          > Let me sum up the mail on the issue of drinking
                                          > milk. I do not wish to compare whether it is more
                                          > hinsac than eating root vegetables as I feel the
                                          > question is relevant for those who wish to justify
                                          > eating root vegetable by pointing out that they are
                                          > vegan but do eat root vegetables. And if it is a
                                          > question of discussion on Tatva, I have written
                                          > ample as a layman and I cannot explain further
                                          > having the barrier of language. ( I truly feel that
                                          > I am not comfortable when I write in english for the
                                          > subejct on jainism.)
                                          >
                                          > Only couples of days back I cursorely asked M.S.
                                          > Shri Netranand Vijayji a disciple of Late Acharya
                                          > Bhuvan Bhanusuriswarji M.S. about milk and it's
                                          > origin. I describe below what he said to me.
                                          >
                                          > "Lord Adeshwarji while describing all the social
                                          > setup for the people at the begining of 4th Era -
                                          > also showed how to milk the cow and use her milk.
                                          > Milk is a transformation of blood of cow. It is like
                                          > excreta of her body and if not taken out from her
                                          > body, she feels lot of pain and her age also
                                          > reduces. Albait, the calves should first be allowed
                                          > to drink as much milk as they want and the excess
                                          > milk is sufficient for human being for their
                                          > consumption which serves not only nutrituions value
                                          > but also stops cows from the pain she has if milk is
                                          > not taken out. The nutrition value of milk of cow
                                          > for young children and to a large extent even elders
                                          > cannot be replced by any other food. They are very
                                          > essential for the human beings of 4th and 5th era
                                          > whose qualities of bones are deteriorated year after
                                          > year. Right now we are having "Sevart Sanghyan" a
                                          > last type of most inferior quality of bones. The
                                          > drinking milk has become essential for bones to be
                                          > stronger for child.
                                          >
                                          > No doubt, we should also take into consideration any
                                          > hinsa which though "Paroksha" are committed in
                                          > dairy and try to stop that too. If any one stops
                                          > drinking milk or milk products, that alone is not
                                          > going to provide any solution to the issue.
                                          >
                                          > In "Trishisht Shalaka Purush" the reference is given
                                          > which described how Lord Adeshwar Bhagwan showed for
                                          > human kind the uses of milk and the method of
                                          > milking. " (Unquote)
                                          >
                                          > Everyone would be aware that there are "Viniyog
                                          > Pariwar" in Mumbai which is working day and night to
                                          > agitate against slaughterhouses and for betterment
                                          > of animals. Our contribution to any organization
                                          > engaged in such activities would be more important.
                                          > Our all Jain Sangh are also working in the same
                                          > direction and tries to do their best to preserve the
                                          > wealth in the form of precious animals from being
                                          > sent to slaughter houses.
                                          >
                                          > Ameerbhai, as far as theory of Tatva for Ahinsa and
                                          > Hinsa are concerned, I sincerely do not wanted to
                                          > enter into discussion with the forum as it expects
                                          > certain level of understanding and putting forth
                                          > certain principles of Leshya - Kashaya etc in front
                                          > of all participants would also not be proper. I
                                          > gather this from few strange remarks I put in my
                                          > mail for which no reaction is made. Secondly as
                                          > written earlier I find it uncomfortable to discuss
                                          > on Tatva in English language.
                                          >
                                          > My feeling for you disrespecting elders came from
                                          > the words you use "barbaric hypocracy and social
                                          > status" and pointing out fingers at elder: Our
                                          > elders are the one from who any social values are
                                          > ascended. To disregard those with "barbaric
                                          > hypocracy and social status" would certainly compel
                                          > me to colour my mind. May be I am wrong and I wish I
                                          > am wrong.
                                          >
                                          > Michhami Dukkadam for all that I said which might
                                          > have hurt you,
                                          >
                                          > Regards
                                          >
                                          > Vijay Mehta
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: AMEER. SANGHVI
                                          > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 9:01 AM
                                          > Subject: [JainList] conclusion. Lets go back to
                                          > the original issue
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Respected Vijay bhai,
                                          >
                                          > Jaijindnera!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive
                                          > Resource on Jainism.
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >


                                          =====
                                          Compassion comes from strength.... So, How strong are you??

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                                        • sreepal5058
                                          Samyak darshan Dear brothers, Let soul secure samyakthva. Sub: Himsa and Ahimsa. Well, discussion appears to be endless and the exercise carries lot of
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 1, 2003
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                                            Samyak darshan

                                            Dear brothers,

                                            Let soul secure samyakthva.

                                            Sub: Himsa and Ahimsa.

                                            Well, discussion appears to be endless and the exercise carries lot
                                            of information on milk and roots. Indeed it discloses the interest of
                                            the participants in understanding issues concerning the food for one,
                                            be it jain or otherwise, for consumption.

                                            While the discussion to know the effects of the consumption of food
                                            items, be it good or bad to the health, what actually happens to one
                                            self / SOUL on this issue of eating itself and of course the kind of
                                            food.

                                            We all have to agree that the sole aim of this discussion group is to
                                            understand the effect of any act on the self - SOUL.

                                            Is that right?

                                            Jain philosophy is very clear on this issue.

                                            Soul as such does not require food and this longing for food arises
                                            only when the soul is plugged in a body, which is from the beginning
                                            less time and the aspirant soul works hard to overcome this avoidable
                                            exercise of eating and adopts to practice 'anshan vrath'-
                                            - avoid the very thought on eating.

                                            This longing -hunger- is labeled as one of the 18 defects of the
                                            embodied soul, of course not of KEVELIN. However, it cannot but arise
                                            in one due to the continuous functioning of the system in the body,
                                            which is excreting amino acids to assimilate the food to be burnt and
                                            energy to be supplied to the physical need of the body.

                                            From the karmic point of view "asaatha vedaneeya karm" when
                                            becomes operational due to the above cited activity, hunger is felt
                                            by soul and due to the "veerya anthroy karma" fructifying, one
                                            could not bear the pangs of hunger and so felt by the soul and
                                            followed by "charitra mohaniya karm" fructifying and as a consequence,
                                            rushes to eat / drink food to mitigate hunger /thirst. So on and so
                                            forth is the story of hunger / thirst and soul in turn functions as
                                            detaild above to explain the course of events due to ignorance of the
                                            self.

                                            Food and driks:
                                            Jain philosophy also is very clear and has enunciated the items of
                                            food / drinks that could be consumed with their limitations on time,
                                            by a votary of Jain Dharma. Further more it is also given there-
                                            shravakaachars - that though many items are given, one has to be
                                            selective of the items to make sure so as to avoid such of the items
                                            of food / drinks that would disturb one's health and as a
                                            consequence deflect one's thought process from observing "dhyana"
                                            - the only way for annihilating both psychic -"bhaava" and physical -
                                            "dhrvya" karmic particles and end the cycle of birth and death.

                                            Milk as you all know is an excretion of female animal and she cannot
                                            but dispense it from her body either giving it to her calf or allow
                                            herself to be milked out. There may be many painful stories of how
                                            the milk is now a day obtained.

                                            Similarly, on the roots consumption it is totally prohibited for
                                            normal consumption by an aspirant for the baneful effects that could
                                            possibly cause, which in turn may likely to cause disturbance in a
                                            weak and ignorant one.

                                            All will agree that the 'be all and end all' of this discussion board
                                            as a means for one, to secure, if not liberation, at
                                            least "samyakthva" in this birth itself.

                                            Now coming to the ahimsa and himsa one has to make clear distinction
                                            between "swa himsa" - causing self-injury and "para
                                            himsa" - causing injury for others living beings.

                                            Whether or not one causes injury "para himsa" - to others which
                                            again is dependent on other's "punnya and papa karmas", he has to be
                                            very vigilant to avoid self injury "swa himsa" which is
                                            the prime concern of any jain or even non jain.

                                            So the very thought of taking food is to be dispensed with and if it
                                            could not, only to sustain oneself for prosecuting the path of JINA
                                            DHARMA one has to keep the body machinery to be functional and as it
                                            is said that one has to "eat to live and not live to eat".

                                            Conclusion:
                                            01)Eating /drinking is only to keep the system functional for the
                                            limited purpose of prosecuting the JINA DHARMA.

                                            02)Eating of such items that are prescribed in the shravagaachars and
                                            there, to be selective of the items that will not disturb the process
                                            of "dhayana".

                                            03)Eating such items, which, for its procurement, as for as possible,
                                            will not entail possible pain, or suffering to other living beings.

                                            04)Eating must be considered as a known defect (dhosh) - one of
                                            the 18 defects - and should be gradually be ended in
                                            "sallekhana" fast unto death - in the most general sense for one, be
                                            he a house holder or saint.

                                            An attempt is made to present the issues arising out of eating of
                                            food from the sole goal of ahimsa.

                                            If any thing not in keeping with the tenets of JINA DHARMA found, it
                                            is mine and may be excused and pardoned and any thing is right it is
                                            JINA'S.

                                            Now for the participants,

                                            Yours brotherly,
                                            sreepalan






                                            --- In jainlist@yahoogroups.com, "Vijay Mehta" <vmc_vijay@h...> wrote:
                                            > Dear Ameerbhai Sanghvi,
                                            >
                                            > Jai Jinendra,
                                            >
                                            > I am happy that you confessed without any hesitatation that your
                                            posses poor knowledge and education of religion. I would not
                                            therefore discuss the issue which involves more complex terms for
                                            Kashaya and Leshya and Mithyatva in terms of Karma Bandh.
                                            >
                                            > I would like to know the answer from the participants and from you
                                            on the following
                                            >
                                            > Q: 1 : Given full facts of Hinsa involved in our daily life
                                            which is more henous than drinking milk are you ready to give up
                                            those activity, use etc.?
                                            >
                                            > Q: 2 : If answer to the above question is no then are you
                                            selective of hinsa or ahinsa?
                                            >
                                            > Q:3 : During my long association with Sadhu M.S. and attending
                                            Pravachana hundreds of time, they never uttered a single word on
                                            Hinsa in drinking milk in the way described in this forum. The only
                                            time they advise is to give up "Vigai" and that too since it is
                                            responsible for "Vikaar" in our mind. Do you think that they are
                                            totally ignorant about the hinsa involved in drinking milk? Or they
                                            are purposely not saying a word on it? What is your view on this?
                                            >
                                            > Q.4 : If you remember the story of Shalibhadra who in his
                                            previous birth made "Supatra Daan" of Kheer to Sadhu M.S. Did he
                                            committed Hinsa?
                                            >
                                            > Q.5 : Gautam Swami - 1st Gandhar of Mahavir Bhagwan
                                            gave "Kheer" to 500 Tapas Muni who had taken diksha. Does that
                                            involve Hinsa.?
                                            >
                                            > Q.6 : What would you call a person who instead of looking at
                                            the root cause of mis-handling of animals tries a different way of
                                            giving up milk products and allow this mis-handling of animals to
                                            continue?
                                            >
                                            > Q.7 : What would you call a person who is out to prove wrong
                                            his elders in the knowledge and logic when he himself does not
                                            possess neither wisdom nor knowledge of principles of Jainism and
                                            state himself to be a true jain?
                                            >
                                            > Q. 8 : The reasons for Karma Bandh are a) Mithyatva, b)
                                            Avirti, c) Kashay and d) yoga. Where would one put "Hinsa" among them
                                            and how?
                                            >
                                            > Now for the participants,
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            >
                                            > Vijay Mehta
                                          • Manish Shah
                                            Jai Jinendra Dear Shri Sanjay Jain I was reading the back articles on the topic vegan . I saw your posting. I wanted to ask u : Why do we need a comparison
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 4, 2003
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                                              Jai Jinendra
                                              Dear Shri Sanjay Jain

                                              I was reading the back articles on the topic "vegan ".

                                              I saw your posting. I wanted to ask u :
                                              " Why do we need a comparison between consumption of milk to root
                                              vegetables ? "

                                              and
                                              why not " do we really need to use milk or its products ? "

                                              Thanking you

                                              Manish R. Shah
                                            • sanjay jain
                                              Dear Manishji, I really do not wish to open this topic again on the Jainlist, it s been discussed over and over again... and gets very heated, hence not good
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jun 23, 2003
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                                                Dear Manishji,

                                                I really do not wish to open this topic again on the
                                                Jainlist, it's been discussed over and over again...
                                                and gets very heated, hence not good for our souls!...
                                                I think the questions you have asked were addressed
                                                previously (see archives). But if not I'm happy to
                                                reply offlist to any questions you have...

                                                Regards
                                                Sanjay M Jain


                                                --- Manish Shah <nagriks@...> wrote:
                                                > Jai Jinendra
                                                > Dear Shri Sanjay Jain
                                                >
                                                > I was reading the back articles on the topic "vegan
                                                > ".
                                                >
                                                > I saw your posting. I wanted to ask u :
                                                > " Why do we need a comparison between consumption of
                                                > milk to root
                                                > vegetables ? "
                                                >
                                                > and
                                                > why not " do we really need to use milk or its
                                                > products ? "
                                                >
                                                > Thanking you
                                                >
                                                > Manish R. Shah
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                                >
                                                > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive
                                                > Resource on Jainism.
                                                >
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                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                >


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