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Re: [JainList] a quest for knowledge

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  • Rajesh Shah
    Jai Jinendra Apurva ... It is important to think about the motive - WHY would you want something that actually BINDS you to sansaar? Because Tirthankar naam
    Message 1 of 24 , May 1 5:04 AM
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      Jai Jinendra Apurva
       
      >>can we have a bhav that we want to be tirthankars?
      It is important to think about the motive - WHY would you want something that actually BINDS you to sansaar?  Because Tirthankar naam karma is after all "KARMA" and the aim of religion is a karma-free state.
       
      Is it because you believe that by acquiring Tirthankar naam karma you will make your moksh definite?
      If that is the case, then it is worth focusing on what frees from and binds to sansaar.
       
      I have attached a diwali card from www.AtmaDharma.com/images/DiwaliGreeting.jpg which identifies the root cause:-
      absence or presence of BhedVignaan.  Only those who understand and apply BhedVignaan attain Moksh. 
       
      If while practising BhedVignaan you have the auspicious feelings that result in Tirthankar naam karma then so be it.  But do not set out to acquire Tirthankar Naam Karma.
       
      >>is it doing niyanu?
      don't understand the question.
       
      >>how is 4 poorva ka gnan different from keval gnan?
      I think you mean 12 Angs/14 poorva. 
      This is complete Shrut Gnaan - those bhaav-lingi muni's that have this labdhi know everything that there is to know about Jainism and are called ShrutKevalis.
      Keval Gnaan:-
      1) in its truest form is knowledge of the self ONLY (The gujarati is clearer than the english translation)
      (The knowledge of the full nature of self, without any break is known as Kevalagnana (i.e.perfect knowledge).  See AtmaSiddhi Shastra Gatha 113 - www.AtmaSiddhi.com).
       
      2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states (past, present and future) are known.
      This aspect is what people recognise as keval gnaan but it is only a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only.
       
      So you can see the difference between Keval Gnaani and Shrut Kevali.
       
      Hope this helps.
       
      Jai Jinendra
      Rajesh
      www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: 24 April 2002 13:27
      Subject: Re: [JainList] a quest for knowledge

      first of all i want to thank rajesh ji for his lucid answers. can we have a bhav that we want to be tirthankars?is it doing niyanu?.how is 4 poorva ka gnan different from keval gnan?
      --- Rajesh Shah <
      rajesh.shah@...> wrote:
      > Jai Jinendra
      >
      > 1) which pad of navkar is gautamswami covered
      > He is a Siddh Parameshti now (Namo Siddhanam)
      > As a Gurndhara, he is a Head Acharya ( Namo
      > Aairiyanam )
      >
      > 2) does navkar chanting one crore times is it one
      > of the ways for attaining tirthankar gotra?
      > As far as I understand, those who become Tirthankars
      > automatically feel the 16 bhavnas (compared to the
      > 12 that are normally meditated upon -
      > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/chadhala/6dhald5.html ).
      > It is important to realise that this happens
      > automatically and is not desired or welcomed by the
      > Gnaani who becomes Tirthankar because it is a
      > shubbh-bhaav (auspicious feeling - not free of
      > passion) whereas freedom is attained by
      > Veetraag-bhaav (free of passions). To attain
      > freedom, the only real tool is bhed-vignaan
      > (differentiation -
      > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/mokshmrgpra/english/c1p004.html#differentiation
      > ).
      >
      > 3) should one keep the same time for chanting
      > navkar mantra?
      > I am not sure about this - I think the main thing is
      > that you should be thinking of the qualities of the
      > 5 Parameshtis at the time
      > (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/mokshmrgpra/english/c1p002.html).
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > Jai Jinendra
      > Rajesh
      > www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: APURVA SHAH
      > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: 21 April 2002 07:57
      > Subject: [JainList] a quest for knowledge
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > hi this is apurva
      > jai jinendra
      > i want to ask in which pad of navkar is gautamswami
      > covered
      > does navkar chanting one crore times is it one of
      > the ways for attaining
      > tirthankar gotra?
      > should one keep the same time for chanting navkar
      > mantra?
      > can somebody tell how to apply uttaradhyayan sootra
      > to shravaks and in
      > practical life.i mean everybody cannot be sadhus
      > i am sorry if i have spoken or asked anything
      > opposed ti jinagyan.michhami
      > dukkiadam
      >
      >
      >


      this is apurva shah. live life kingsize
    • rcmehta_2000
      ... 2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states (past, present and future) are known. ... a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan
      Message 2 of 24 , May 9 9:57 AM
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        --- In jainlist@y..., "Rajesh Shah" <rajesh.shah@t...> wrote:
        > Jai Jinendra Apurva

        2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states
        (past, present and future) are known.
        > This aspect is what people recognise as keval gnaan but it is only
        a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self
        only.
        >

        > Jai Jinendra
        > Rajesh

        Shri Rajeshji,
        Jai Jinendra.

        You worte :
        "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."

        Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
        you explain the meaning ?

        Jai Jinendra.
        Raj
      • Rajesh Shah
        Jai Jinendra Raj true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only. Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can you explain the
        Message 3 of 24 , May 9 10:09 PM
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          Jai Jinendra Raj
           
          "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."

          Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
          you explain the meaning ?

          This is a deep subject - I will give references first:-
          1)  Samaysaar - Gatha 6 ( http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaar/gujarati )
          {The English from http://www.aditi.net/Jain/Sacred/Samaysar/Samaysar.html - 6. But that knowing substance (pure soul) does not become of perfect vows (or of any higher spiritual stage), nor of Imperfectvows (or of any lower Spiritual Stage). Thus say the pure (from the standpoint of pure soul). And indeed that which is theknown is even the same (as knower, i.e., itself, in self-absorption).} 
          2) You can read lectures on Samaysaar Gatha 6 in Pravachan Ratnakar Part 1 ( http://www.AtmaDharma.com/pravachanratnakar/gujarati/bhag01 ) .
          3)  Samaysaar Kalash - Kalash 271 ( http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaarkalash/gujarati )
          4)  PurushAaarthSiddhiUpaai - Gatha 1 (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/purushaarthsiddhiupaai/gujarati )
          5)  Moksh Marg Prakashak - Chapter 3 ( Root Cause of Miseries - this is not on the net yet so text is pasted here - although Hindi version is due to go on the net any day now)
           
          Further, due to force of Moha (delusion) the desire of knowing and enjoying the objects through those senses is produced and on enjoying those objects he feels satisfied on fulfilling of that desire and feels delighted. Just as a dog masticates the bone, due to that its own blood starts coming out. By its taste it believes that this is the taste of the bones; similarly, this Jiva knows the objects due to which his knowledge gets entangled in them; taking its taste he believes that this is the taste of objects, but the taste is not in the objects. He himself created the desire, by knowing it himself, believed himself to be happy; but "I am an eternal soul characterized by knowledge (sentience)" such realization of "self being an embodiment of knowledge only" is not there. And "I saw dance, heard melody, smelt the flowers, tasted and touched the objects, knew the Shastra (scripture), I should know this" - like this he possesses the realization of knowledge mixed with the objects known; because of this the pre-dominance of objects alone is perceived. In this way, owing to Nimitta of Moha the desire of objects is found to this Jiva.
           
          My understanding - please compare with the references:-
          The soul's nature is "gnaan". 
          That gnaan knows itself. 
          At the same time all objects with all their states are reflected (as opposed to known) in the gnaan (but its the gnaan which is known). 
          However, if the soul is not aware of itself, it believes that it knows the objects when in reality it knows itself.
           
          If this is hard to believe then consider that the soul is not the body yet believes itself to be the body, and "experiences" the bodies experiences, etc.. 
          How can the soul (jiv dravya) become the states of the body which is pudgal dravya?
          It cannot, yet it believes that it does.
           
          This is a tricky subject - its important that the references are looked at carefully not with the aim of proving your view but that of understanding what is really happening.
           
          The entire book "Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi" is due to be published on the web soon (hopefully by early June). This will contain references to many shastras and an introduction which covers this entire subject.
           
          Jai Jinendra
          Rajesh
          www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: 09 May 2002 17:57
          Subject: [JainList] Re: a quest for knowledge

          --- In jainlist@y..., "Rajesh Shah" <rajesh.shah@t...> wrote:
          > Jai Jinendra Apurva

           2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states
          (past, present and future) are known.
          > This aspect is what people recognise as keval gnaan but it is only
          a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self
          only.
          >
           
          > Jai Jinendra
          > Rajesh

          Shri Rajeshji,
          Jai Jinendra.

          You worte  :
          "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."

          Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
          you explain the meaning ?

          Jai Jinendra.
          Raj
        • Manish Modi
          Very interesting, Rajeshbhai! I would love to see the book Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi . Manish ... Content-Type: text/html; charset= us-ascii ;
          Message 4 of 24 , May 10 10:52 PM
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            Very interesting, Rajeshbhai!
            I would love to see the book "Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi".

            Manish

            On Friday 10 May 2002 10:39, you wrote:
            > Jai Jinendra Raj
            >
            > "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."
            >
            > Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
            > you explain the meaning ?
            >
            > This is a deep subject - I will give references first:-
            > 1) Samaysaar - Gatha 6 ( http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaar/gujarati )
            > {The English from http://www.aditi.net/Jain/Sacred/Samaysar/Samaysar.html -
            > 6. But that knowing substance (pure soul) does not become of perfect vows
            > (or of any higher spiritual stage), nor of Imperfectvows (or of any lower
            > Spiritual Stage). Thus say the pure (from the standpoint of pure soul). And
            > indeed that which is theknown is even the same (as knower, i.e., itself, in
            > self-absorption).} 2) You can read lectures on Samaysaar Gatha 6 in
            > Pravachan Ratnakar Part 1 (
            > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/pravachanratnakar/gujarati/bhag01 ) . 3)
            > Samaysaar Kalash - Kalash 271 (
            > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaarkalash/gujarati ) 4)
            > PurushAaarthSiddhiUpaai - Gatha 1
            > (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/purushaarthsiddhiupaai/gujarati ) 5) Moksh Marg
            > Prakashak - Chapter 3 ( Root Cause of Miseries - this is not on the net yet
            > so text is pasted here - although Hindi version is due to go on the net any
            > day now)
            >
            > Further, due to force of Moha (delusion) the desire of knowing and enjoying
            > the objects through those senses is produced and on enjoying those objects
            > he feels satisfied on fulfilling of that desire and feels delighted. Just
            > as a dog masticates the bone, due to that its own blood starts coming out.
            > By its taste it believes that this is the taste of the bones; similarly,
            > this Jiva knows the objects due to which his knowledge gets entangled in
            > them; taking its taste he believes that this is the taste of objects, but
            > the taste is not in the objects. He himself created the desire, by knowing
            > it himself, believed himself to be happy; but "I am an eternal soul
            > characterized by knowledge (sentience)" such realization of "self being an
            > embodiment of knowledge only" is not there. And "I saw dance, heard melody,
            > smelt the flowers, tasted and touched the objects, knew the Shastra
            > (scripture), I should know this" - like this he possesses the realization
            > of knowledge mixed with the objects known; because of this the
            > pre-dominance of objects alone is perceived. In this way, owing to Nimitta
            > of Moha the desire of objects is found to this Jiva.
            >
            > My understanding - please compare with the references:-
            > The soul's nature is "gnaan".
            > That gnaan knows itself.
            > At the same time all objects with all their states are reflected (as
            > opposed to known) in the gnaan (but its the gnaan which is known). However,
            > if the soul is not aware of itself, it believes that it knows the objects
            > when in reality it knows itself.
            >
            > If this is hard to believe then consider that the soul is not the body yet
            > believes itself to be the body, and "experiences" the bodies experiences,
            > etc.. How can the soul (jiv dravya) become the states of the body which is
            > pudgal dravya? It cannot, yet it believes that it does.
            >
            > This is a tricky subject - its important that the references are looked at
            > carefully not with the aim of proving your view but that of understanding
            > what is really happening.
            >
            > The entire book "Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi" is due to be published on the
            > web soon (hopefully by early June). This will contain references to many
            > shastras and an introduction which covers this entire subject.
            >
            > Jai Jinendra
            > Rajesh
            > www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: rcmehta_2000
            > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: 09 May 2002 17:57
            > Subject: [JainList] Re: a quest for knowledge
            >
            > --- In jainlist@y..., "Rajesh Shah" <rajesh.shah@t...> wrote:
            > > Jai Jinendra Apurva
            >
            > 2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states
            > (past, present and future) are known.
            >
            > > This aspect is what people recognise as keval gnaan but it is only
            >
            > a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self
            > only.
            >
            > > Jai Jinendra
            > > Rajesh
            >
            > Shri Rajeshji,
            > Jai Jinendra.
            >
            > You worte :
            > "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."
            >
            > Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
            > you explain the meaning ?
            >
            > Jai Jinendra.
            > Raj

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            Manish Modi

            HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
            Booksellers and Publishers
            http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
            Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
            Telephone: 00 91 22 3826739
            Email: manish.modi@...

            DILON KE RISHTE (Urdu Poetry) by Prem Dhawan Rs. 100.00
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          • neha jain
            jai jinendra avry body,,,, well since long without writing any mail i am following all the mails going between other members i would like to say i am
            Message 5 of 24 , May 11 10:09 PM
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              jai jinendra avry body,,,, well since long without writing any mail i am following all the mails going between other members i would like to say i am overwhelmed with the kind of knowledge i am getting reading them. i praise you all & thankyou 4 enlighten me & whole world by sharing your views on jainism. neha jain

                Manish Modi <manish.modi@...> wrote:

              Very interesting, Rajeshbhai!
              I would love to see the book "Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi".

              Manish

              On Friday 10 May 2002 10:39, you wrote:
              > Jai Jinendra Raj
              >
              > "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."
              >
              > Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
              > you explain the meaning ?
              >
              > This is a deep subject - I will give references first:-
              > 1)  Samaysaar - Gatha 6 ( http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaar/gujarati )
              > {The English from http://www.aditi.net/Jain/Sacred/Samaysar/Samaysar.html -
              > 6. But that knowing substance (pure soul) does not become of perfect vows
              > (or of any higher spiritual stage), nor of Imperfectvows (or of any lower
              > Spiritual Stage). Thus say the pure (from the standpoint of pure soul). And
              > indeed that which is theknown is even the same (as knower, i.e., itself, in
              > self-absorption).} 2) You can read lectures on Samaysaar Gatha 6 in
              > Pravachan Ratnakar Part 1 (
              > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/pravachanratnakar/gujarati/bhag01 ) . 3)
              > Samaysaar Kalash - Kalash 271 (
              > http://www.AtmaDharma.com/samaysaarkalash/gujarati ) 4)
              > PurushAaarthSiddhiUpaai - Gatha 1
              > (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/purushaarthsiddhiupaai/gujarati ) 5)  Moksh Marg
              > Prakashak - Chapter 3 ( Root Cause of Miseries - this is not on the net yet
              > so text is pasted here - although Hindi version is due to go on the net any
              > day now)
              >
              > Further, due to force of Moha (delusion) the desire of knowing and enjoying
              > the objects through those senses is produced and on enjoying those objects
              > he feels satisfied on fulfilling of that desire and feels delighted. Just
              > as a dog masticates the bone, due to that its own blood starts coming out.
              > By its taste it believes that this is the taste of the bones; similarly,
              > this Jiva knows the objects due to which his knowledge gets entangled in
              > them; taking its taste he believes that this is the taste of objects, but
              > the taste is not in the objects. He himself created the desire, by knowing
              > it himself, believed himself to be happy; but "I am an eternal soul
              > characterized by knowledge (sentience)" such realization of "self being an
              > embodiment of knowledge only" is not there. And "I saw dance, heard melody,
              > smelt the flowers, tasted and touched the objects, knew the Shastra
              > (scripture), I should know this" - like this he possesses the realization
              > of knowledge mixed with the objects known; because of this the
              > pre-dominance of objects alone is perceived. In this way, owing to Nimitta
              > of Moha the desire of objects is found to this Jiva.
              >
              > My understanding - please compare with the references:-
              > The soul's nature is "gnaan".
              > That gnaan knows itself.
              > At the same time all objects with all their states are reflected (as
              > opposed to known) in the gnaan (but its the gnaan which is known). However,
              > if the soul is not aware of itself, it believes that it knows the objects
              > when in reality it knows itself.
              >
              > If this is hard to believe then consider that the soul is not the body yet
              > believes itself to be the body, and "experiences" the bodies experiences,
              > etc.. How can the soul (jiv dravya) become the states of the body which is
              > pudgal dravya? It cannot, yet it believes that it does.
              >
              > This is a tricky subject - its important that the references are looked at
              > carefully not with the aim of proving your view but that of understanding
              > what is really happening.
              >
              > The entire book "Indriya Gnaan - Gnaan Nathi" is due to be published on the
              > web soon (hopefully by early June). This will contain references to many
              > shastras and an introduction which covers this entire subject.
              >
              > Jai Jinendra
              > Rajesh
              > www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcmehta_2000
              > To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 09 May 2002 17:57
              > Subject: [JainList] Re: a quest for knowledge
              >
              > --- In jainlist@y..., "Rajesh Shah" <rajesh.shah@t...> wrote:
              > > Jai Jinendra Apurva
              >
              >  2) at the same time, ALL substances together with ALL their states
              > (past, present and future) are known.
              >
              > > This aspect is what people recognise as keval gnaan but it is only
              >
              > a side-issue as the true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self
              > only.
              >
              > > Jai Jinendra
              > > Rajesh
              >
              > Shri Rajeshji,
              > Jai Jinendra.
              >
              > You worte  :
              > "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."
              >
              > Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR can
              > you explain the meaning ?
              >
              > Jai Jinendra.
              > Raj

              ----------------------------------------
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              ----------------------------------------

              --
              Yours in Ahinsa,

              Manish Modi

              HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
              Booksellers and Publishers
              http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
              Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
              Telephone: 00 91 22 3826739
              Email: manish.modi@...

              DILON KE RISHTE (Urdu Poetry) by Prem Dhawan Rs. 100.00
              Ghazals that celebrate the warmth of love with a zest for life.



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            • APURVA SHAH
              thanks rajeshji for all ur excellent answers and also other persons who in turn raised queries on ur answers. it is an enlightening experience. first of all i
              Message 6 of 24 , May 14 10:38 AM
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                thanks rajeshji for all ur excellent answers
                and also other persons who in turn raised queries on ur answers.

                it is an enlightening experience. first of all i want to request whether
                you can put whole meaning of utaradhyayan stootra and bhagwati sootra in english
                or gujrati?

                secondly u said kreview gnan or 14poorva gnan is knowledge about jainism?
                does it mean keval gnan is higher than 14 poorva ka gnan?

                and 14 poorva ka gnan if a person has does it mean he is necessarily going to
                attain moksh bcos i know that keval gnan if a person has he is sure to attain moksh but what about a person having 14 poorva ka gnan?
              • AION
                Namaste! Im new to the list. Im an American Buddhist following in the vajrayana tradition. Im glad to learn more about the Jain tradition of jnana. Its
                Message 7 of 24 , May 14 9:47 PM
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                  Namaste!

                  Im new to the list.
                  Im an American Buddhist following in the vajrayana
                  tradition. Im glad to learn more about the Jain tradition of jnana.

                  Its interesting for me to compare your ideas of Kaivalya/Moksha with that
                  of Siddharth Gautama.

                  Its also nice to hear from people who are serious about learning about
                  something else besides samsara!

                  May all beings be liberated from suffering.

                  Swasti

                  Ed
                  (in New York City)
                • mehul_turakhia
                  Dear friends, Jai Jinendra Here is a supplementary addition to the subject of knowledge. Some of the points bought out in the below given mail by Rajeshji are
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 23 1:41 AM
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                    Dear friends,
                    Jai Jinendra

                    Here is a supplementary addition to the subject of knowledge.
                    Some of the points bought out in the below given mail by Rajeshji are
                    very relevant in bringing out the differentiation of soil –jiva
                    dravya and all other outside dravya i.e. pudgal dravya . This article
                    is written to bring about a slightly different perspective on the
                    subject of knowledge. This article is broadly divided into three
                    parts , (a) Swetambar agamic view (b) other literary references to
                    knowledge with a different perspective (c) balance between vyavahar
                    and nishchay.

                    (A) Swetambar Agamic view
                    1. Bhagawati sutra is one of the ang agam in swetambar parampara
                    containing the teachings by Mahavir swami, compiled by ganadhar
                    maharaj. In the Bhagawati sutra there are questions regarding Praman
                    i.e. What is praman ?(To simiplify praman is defined as knowledge of
                    swa (self) and par (all things other than swa). The reply is found
                    that there are four kind of praman i.e. (1) Pratyaksh praman (what is
                    in front or direct --crudely speaking) (2) Paroksh praman ( What is
                    not in front or indirect) (3) Agam praman (with the basis of agams)
                    (4) Upama praman (with the basis of upama or simile or comparision
                    for explanation of difficult issues, tattvas, dravyas etc. ) Then
                    there are different categories of prataksh praman. i.e. Indriya
                    pratyaksh and no-indriya pratyaksh. The meaning of Indriya pratyaksh
                    is knowledge with the help of indrya and its vishaya i.e. objects
                    which come under the purview of grasp of indriya. In the no-indriya
                    pratyaksh gyan, awadhi, man-paryava and keval gyan are covered.
                    Thus in the tree of knowledge, keval gyan is covered under the word
                    Praman. This fairly tallies with the differentiation of indriya gyan
                    and keval gyan under the knowledge tree as given earlier.

                    2. In the Nandi sutra Agam there is description of keval gyan.
                    It is mentioned that Keval nani savvam davva-I jana-I pasa-I i.e.
                    keval gyani knows all the dravya. (it may be noted in the definition,
                    here all dravyas are covered and not restricted to only jiva
                    dravya) This is slightly at variance with views given by Rajeshji.
                    Here under this apeksha, it is indicated the gyani is the one who
                    knows and not knowledge which
                    knows. Quote "> My
                    understanding - please compare with the references:-
                    > The soul's nature is "gnaan".
                    > That gnaan knows itself.
                    " Unquote .

                    3. In Uttara-dhyayan sutra and many other places it is found
                    that the basic lakshan (property guna ) of jiva is upa-yog i.e. gyan
                    and darshan. Thus gyan is guna of jiva dravya or to put it other way,
                    it is nature of jiva to know.

                    (B) Other Literary references

                    1. The Praman is defined in the Saman suttam as knowledge of swa
                    and par under the chapter of anekant.

                    2. There are quite a few references in the Jainendra Sidhhanta
                    kosh by Shri Jinendra varniji (one of the kosh acceptable to Digambar
                    parampara ) it is found in part 2 page 258 (publication VS 2028)
                    under praman.
                    (2a) Swa par prakashak gyan is praman as per Sarvarth siddhi .
                    (2b) swa and par vyavasai gyan is praman . Occupation of knowledge in
                    swa and par is praman . as per Praman-naya-tattva-lok-alankar .
                    ((2c) Similar reference is found in praman-naya- tattva-lok which is
                    a famous book on nyaya by Vadidev-suri from mandirmargi swetambar
                    parampara.)
                    (2d) Nischay and vyavahar both gyan are kathanchit (may be ) swa- par
                    prakashak . (nishchay and vyavahar both knowledge ( may be )
                    enlightens the swa and par.) as per niyam-sar.
                    (2e) swa par vyavasayik gyan is praman as per panchadhyayi.
                    (2f) pramey is pramey and praman is praman as well as praman is
                    pramey " as per raaj vartik. (This shows that knowledge is knowledge
                    and knowledge is known )
                    Thus many reference also point to fact that knowledge covers self
                    and everything else which is other than self. As keval gyan is the
                    ultimate knowledge, the same will be applicable for keval gyan also.
                    this may be treated as supplementary views.

                    C Balance between Vyavahar and Nischay

                    1. As long as the statement > "true nature of keval gnaan is to
                    know the self only." Is used to detach one self from worldly
                    attachments and outside samyog, it is very much necessary/ and a
                    welcome sign. In the swetambar agams there are numerous statements
                    aimed at addressing the soul to be with soul.

                    2. In case above statement is used to deny any activity of
                    samvar and nirjara (in the vyavahar plane) with only concentration on
                    nischay, it leads to ekantvad. Ideally the Jain practice should
                    combine shuddha vyavahar and shuddha nischay. If any practice,belief
                    etc leads to (1) ashuddha vyavahar and shuddha nishchay (2) shuddha
                    vyavahar and ashuddha nishchay (3) ashuddha vyavahar and ashuddha
                    nishchay then it is an aberration.

                    3. Consider the time line of one jiva. It can be divided into
                    two parts (1) state before keval gyan and (2) state after keval gyan.
                    In the state after keval gyan there is not much problem because it is
                    an eternal state. In the state before keval gyan, it is samsar
                    awastha either without knowledge or with knowledge with/without
                    sadhana. In order to know about the soul, and to differentiate in
                    nishcay plane from world, the knowledge of soul is imperative.
                    However there are mention to many dravyas, tattvas, karma and other
                    principles (like ut-than , karma, bal, virya and parakram ) along
                    with do's and don'ts in the path of sadhna. These are also to be (a)
                    known, (b) followed as necessary after knowing if it helps sadhna,
                    (c) to be left/ get detached as necessary after knowing if it is
                    harmful to sadhna . (bhaava of avashyak sutra ). Agamkar puts
                    vyavahar on the highest plateau in the path of sadhna along with the
                    right belief in shudhha nishchay.

                    This is my understanding. This is written, not as contradiction to
                    what has been said but as a supplementary view along with a different
                    perspective. There is no intention of hurting anyone's feeling.
                    Sincere michchhami dukaddam is anyone's feeling are hurt or anything
                    is written against jain agams.

                    Regards,

                    Mehul .



                    --- In jainlist@y..., "Rajesh Shah" <rajesh.shah@t...> wrote:
                    > Jai Jinendra Raj
                    >
                    > "true nature of keval gnaan is to know the self only."
                    >
                    > Does it mean that it does not know anything other than self ? OR
                    can
                    > you explain the meaning ?
                  • Manish Modi
                    Dharmapremi Mehulji, Jai Jinendra Excellent work! I particularly liked point two of your posting. 2. In case above statement is used to deny any activity
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 23 6:39 AM
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                      Dharmapremi Mehulji,
                      Jai Jinendra

                      Excellent work! I particularly liked point two of your posting.

                      2. In case above statement is used to deny any activity of
                      samvar and nirjara (in the vyavahar plane) with only concentration on
                      nischay, it leads to ekantvad. Ideally the Jain practice should
                      combine shuddha vyavahar and shuddha nischay. If any practice,belief
                      etc leads to (1) ashuddha vyavahar and shuddha nishchay (2) shuddha
                      vyavahar and ashuddha nishchay (3) ashuddha vyavahar and ashuddha
                      nishchay then it is an aberration.

                      I am glad to know that you have started referring to the Jainendra Siddhant
                      Kosh as well!

                      Yours in Ahinsa,

                      Manish Modi

                      HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
                      Booksellers and Publishers
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                    • Rajesh Shah
                      Jai Jinendra (c) balance between vyavahar and nishchay This is an excellent topic - and the cause of much misunderstanding too! Chapter 7 of MokshMarg
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 23 9:05 PM
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                        Jai Jinendra
                         
                        (c) balance between vyavahar and nishchay
                         
                        This is an excellent topic - and the cause of much misunderstanding too!
                        Chapter 7 of MokshMarg Prakashak (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/mokshmrgpra/hindi/) covers this in extensive detail and examines in detail the mistakes of the:-
                        1) NishchayAbhaasi
                        2) VyavhaarAbhaasi
                        3) UbhayAbhaasi
                         
                        This is a subject worthy of serious study & discussion.
                         
                        Jai Jinendra
                        Rajesh
                        www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: 23 May 2002 09:41
                        Subject: [JainList] Re: a quest for knowledge

                      • Rajesh Shah
                        Jai Jinendra There is only one Moksh Marg. My understanding of Nishchay & Vyavhaar after reading Adhikkar 7 of Moksh Marg Prakshak
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 23 9:43 PM
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                          Jai Jinendra
                           
                          There is only one Moksh Marg. 
                           
                          My understanding of Nishchay & Vyavhaar after reading Adhikkar 7 of Moksh Marg Prakshak (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/mokshmrgpra/hindi/) is:-
                           
                          To describe Moksh Marg as Moksh Marg is the Nishchay description.
                          To describe what is NOT Moksh Marg as Moksh Marg is the Vyavhaar description.
                           
                          That begs the question, why use Vyavhaar description at all - especially if it does not state the truth.  Well it does have a real and useful purpose in conveying a message but it is important to understand its TRUE meaning (the message that is intended to be conveyed).
                           
                          I will give an example:-
                          When we say "he lifted a book", what actually happens is that
                          a)  the Soul did not lift the book,
                          b)  each of the parmanus that we perceive as a book moved of their own accord (the six kaaraks are defined at http://www.AtmaDharma.com/laghujainsiddhant/english/index.html#question130). 
                          c)  in the Soul's state there was a desire to lift the book.
                           
                          So the statement "he lifted the book" is a Vyavhaar Statement and its purpose is to convey the meaning that when the "book" moved of its own accord (Nishchay Statement), there was a DESIRE to lift the book in THAT PARTICULAR soul's state.  If that soul actually believes that he can lift the book, he is definitely a mithyadashti.
                           
                          So you can see that vyavhaar descriptions have a purpose but if taken literally can mislead.
                           
                          I must confess, I don't understand the term "balance between nishchay and vyavhaar" as they both have a message to convey. CORRECT INTERPRETATION of vyavhaar statements is essential.
                           
                          For further research, you may like to explore:-
                          1) Sadbhut Anupcharit Vyavhaar
                          2) Sadbhut Upcharit Vyavhaar
                          3) Asadbhut Anupcharit Vyavhaar
                          4) Asadbhut Upcharit Vyavhaar
                           
                           
                          Jai Jinendra
                          Rajesh
                          www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: 23 May 2002 14:39
                          Subject: [JainList] Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar with Shuddh Nishchay.

                          Dharmapremi Mehulji,
                          Jai Jinendra

                          Excellent work! I particularly liked point two of your posting.

                          2.       In case above statement is used to deny any activity of
                          samvar and nirjara (in the vyavahar plane) with only concentration on
                          nischay, it leads to ekantvad. Ideally the Jain practice should
                          combine shuddha vyavahar and shuddha nischay. If any practice,belief
                          etc leads to (1) ashuddha vyavahar and shuddha nishchay (2) shuddha
                          vyavahar and ashuddha nishchay (3) ashuddha vyavahar and ashuddha
                          nishchay then it is an aberration.

                        • hemant mehta
                          jai jinendra. i would request the knowledgeable members on the list to explain the concepts of nischaya naya and vyavahar naya in utmost detail for the benefit
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 23 9:59 PM
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                            jai jinendra.

                            i would request the knowledgeable members on the list to explain the
                            concepts of nischaya naya and vyavahar naya in utmost detail for the benefit
                            of all the members on this list because i think without a right
                            understanding of these 2 nayas its very diffiuclt to understand jain
                            scriptures and a beginner might end up in utter confusion.
                            especially would like the knowledgeable members to explain the following
                            with examples
                            1 what do u exactly mean by nischaya naya and vyavahar naya
                            2 what is the understanding one should have when the 2 nayas contradict
                            each other
                            3 is it that whatever is said from nischaya naya is always true and whatever
                            is said from vyavahar naya is always false
                            4 when the reader encounters statements like
                            "from nischaya naya one cannot do any good or bad of others but from
                            vayvahar naya one can do good or bad of others"
                            how is the reader supposed to apply the 2 nayas in his real life

                            i have just listed some of the questions/doubts/misinterpretations but there
                            might be other questions/doubts/misinterpretations as well on the
                            beginner's part

                            so this is a humble attempt to get the focus of all the members on the list
                            on the significance of this very important concept of nischaya and vyavahar
                            nayas.

                            regards,
                            hemant mehta

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Manish Modi" <manish.modi@...>
                            To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:09 PM
                            Subject: [JainList] Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar
                            with Shuddh Nishchay.


                            > Dharmapremi Mehulji,
                            > Jai Jinendra
                            >
                            > Excellent work! I particularly liked point two of your posting.
                            >
                            > 2. In case above statement is used to deny any activity of
                            > samvar and nirjara (in the vyavahar plane) with only concentration on
                            > nischay, it leads to ekantvad. Ideally the Jain practice should
                            > combine shuddha vyavahar and shuddha nischay. If any practice,belief
                            > etc leads to (1) ashuddha vyavahar and shuddha nishchay (2) shuddha
                            > vyavahar and ashuddha nishchay (3) ashuddha vyavahar and ashuddha
                            > nishchay then it is an aberration.
                            >
                            > I am glad to know that you have started referring to the Jainendra
                            Siddhant
                            > Kosh as well!
                            >
                            > Yours in Ahinsa,
                            >
                            > Manish Modi
                            >
                            > HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
                            > Booksellers and Publishers
                            > http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
                            > Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
                            > Telephone: 00 91 22 3826739
                            > Email: manish.modi@...
                            >
                            > DILON KE RISHTE (Urdu Poetry) by Prem Dhawan Rs. 100.00
                            > Ghazals that celebrate the warmth of love with a zest for life.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > JainNet http://www.jainnet.com - Comprehensive Resource on Jainism.
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Manish Modi
                            Dharmapremi Rajeshji, Jai Jinendra Here is what the celebrated Jain scholar, Dr. A. N. Upadhyeji has to say about the Nays. This is taken from his excellent
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 24 10:47 PM
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                              Dharmapremi Rajeshji,
                              Jai Jinendra

                              Here is what the celebrated Jain scholar, Dr. A. N. Upadhyeji has to say about
                              the Nays. This is taken from his excellent scholarly introduction to
                              "Kattigeyanuppekkha", published by Shrimad Rajchandra Ashram, Agas, 1997
                              edition; pages 51 and 52.

                              "Every object has manifold aspects, and can be viewed only from a single
                              aspect with the help of scriptural knowledge and of Nays. Any assertion about
                              it is from some point of view or the other. The knowledge brings out
                              indirectly the manifold aspects of objectivity, divested of flaws like
                              doubts etc.

                              Nay is a variety of scriptural knowledge and originates from some
                              characteristic or the other: it serves day-to-day wordly transactions with
                              some aspect or object in view. The reality is a complexity, and when
                              something is stated about it, it is with some aspect predominantly in view,
                              and otehrs being put in the background for the moment. Nay is three-fold.
                              That is a SUNAY or a good point of view, which does not ignore or deny other
                              points of view; but a bad point of view, DURNAY, leaves no margin for other
                              views. All worldly transactions are well explained by good points of view. "

                              So, Rajeshji, carrying on about the Nishchay Nay, while ignoring the
                              Vyavhar Nay, is not going to help your pursuit of truth. It is better to
                              develop a balanced view, and look at things from both Nishchay and Vyavhar
                              Points of View, in order to get a complete picture of reality.

                              Here is what the great Saint Swami Kumar has written about this, in his
                              wonderful Prakrit work, "Kattigeyanuppekkha", published by Shrimad Rajchandra
                              Ashram, Agas, 1997 edition; pages 190.

                              Gatha 266

                              "Te Saavekkha SuNaya Nirvekkha Te Vi DuNNaya Honti"

                              {If these Nays are Saapeksh (studied in conjunction with one another) then
                              they are Sunay (correct point of view) else if they are studied/ understood
                              in isolation, they are Durnay (incorrect point of view)}.

                              "Sayal-Vavhaar- Siddhi Su-Nayado Hodi NiyameNa"

                              {Only by (Niyampurvak) necessarily using the Sunay can we understand all the
                              the worldly transactions!}

                              I hope this explains to you the why and wherefore of a balanced view.
                              --
                              Yours in Ahinsa,

                              Manish Modi

                              HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
                              Booksellers and Publishers
                              http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
                              Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
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                              Email: manish.modi@...

                              DILON KE RISHTE (Urdu Poetry) by Prem Dhawan Rs. 100.00
                              Ghazals that celebrate the warmth of love with a zest for life.
                            • Rajesh Shah
                              Jai Jinendra In my original e-mail I had made a number of points. 1) You haven t considered any of them individually but given me someone else s opinion to try
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 24 11:30 PM
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                                Jai Jinendra
                                 
                                In my original e-mail I had made a number of points. 
                                1) You haven't considered any of them individually but given me someone else's opinion to try to justify the word balance and
                                2) instead of debating the issue you are personalising the discussion by saying "So, Rajeshji, carrying on about the Nishchay Nay, while  ignoring the Vyavhar Nay, is not going to help your pursuit of truth.".
                                 
                                That doesn't lead to a rational discussion.  Find the flaws with my statements - i.e. where I have misunderstood a great shastra like Moksh Marg Prakashak, etc. and point out those flaws OBJECTIVELY.  Only then can a sensible debate take place. 
                                 
                                Otherwise, I will drop out of this "debate".
                                 
                                Also, it is not sensible to put up a "scholar's" argument which contradicts a "Gnaanis" opinion!  Moksh Marg Prakashak has all the answers if anyone takes the time to study it OBJECTIVELY.
                                 
                                For info I repeat my previous statements - reply to the points - don't turn it into an attack onto any person.
                                ************************************
                                There is only one Moksh Marg. 
                                 
                                My understanding of Nishchay & Vyavhaar after reading Adhikkar 7 of Moksh Marg Prakshak (http://www.AtmaDharma.com/mokshmrgpra/hindi/) is:-
                                 
                                To describe Moksh Marg as Moksh Marg is the Nishchay description.
                                To describe what is NOT Moksh Marg as Moksh Marg is the Vyavhaar description.
                                 
                                That begs the question, why use Vyavhaar description at all - especially if it does not state the truth.  Well it does have a real and useful purpose in conveying a message but it is important to understand its TRUE meaning (the message that is intended to be conveyed).
                                 
                                I will give an example:-
                                When we say "he lifted a book", what actually happens is that
                                a)  the Soul did not lift the book,
                                b)  each of the parmanus that we perceive as a book moved of their own accord (the six kaaraks are defined at http://www.AtmaDharma.com/laghujainsiddhant/english/index.html#question130). 
                                c)  in the Soul's state there was a desire to lift the book.
                                 
                                So the statement "he lifted the book" is a Vyavhaar Statement and its purpose is to convey the meaning that when the "book" moved of its own accord (Nishchay Statement), there was a DESIRE to lift the book in THAT PARTICULAR soul's state.  If that soul actually believes that he can lift the book, he is definitely a mithyadashti.
                                 
                                So you can see that vyavhaar descriptions have a purpose but if taken literally can mislead.
                                 
                                I must confess, I don't understand the term "balance between nishchay and vyavhaar" as they both have a message to convey. CORRECT INTERPRETATION of vyavhaar statements is essential.
                                 
                                For further research, you may like to explore:-
                                1) Sadbhut Anupcharit Vyavhaar
                                2) Sadbhut Upcharit Vyavhaar
                                3) Asadbhut Anupcharit Vyavhaar
                                4) Asadbhut Upcharit Vyavhaar
                                 
                                 
                                Jai Jinendra
                                Rajesh
                                www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: 25 May 2002 06:47
                                Subject: [JainList] Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar with Shuddh Nishchay.

                                Dharmapremi Rajeshji,
                                Jai Jinendra
                              • Manish Modi
                                Dharmapremi Rajeshji, Jai Jinendra You wrote: In my original e-mail I had made a number of points. 1) You haven t considered any of them individually but
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 25 7:28 AM
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                                  Dharmapremi Rajeshji,
                                  Jai Jinendra

                                  You wrote:

                                  "In my original e-mail I had made a number of points.
                                  1) You haven't considered any of them individually but given me someone else's
                                  opinion to try to justify the word balance and "

                                  Earlier, you wrote that you did not understand the term, balance between
                                  Nishchay and Vyavhar, that is why I tried to explain to you what it meant. I
                                  am not trying to justify my usage of the word balance.

                                  The opinion of the person I gave you, is not just anybody!
                                  I have quoted Swami Kumar, the author of the "Kattigeyanuppekkha", and Dr. A.
                                  N. Upadhyeji. Both of them were masters in their field. Both of them are
                                  recognised by their peers and universally recognised as exemplary masters of
                                  Jain philosophy.

                                  You wrote:

                                  "2) instead of debating the issue you are personalising the discussion by
                                  saying "So, Rajeshji, carrying on about the Nishchay Nay, while ignoring the
                                  Vyavhar Nay, is not going to help your pursuit of truth.".

                                  I was not aware that you have a problem with my using your name. I was
                                  answering your posting, therefore I used your name. I do not see any reason
                                  for you to think that I am not being objective. In my postings in the past, I
                                  have addressed Mehulji and others in person, they have never objected, not
                                  have they felt that I was personalising the issue. I am surprised you feel
                                  that way.

                                  You wrote:

                                  "Otherwise, I will drop out of this "debate"."

                                  Whether you chose to continue with this discussion or not is entirely up to
                                  you. But threatening to drop out of any debate will only have limited effect.

                                  You wrote:

                                  Also, it is not sensible to put up a "scholar's" argument which contradicts a
                                  "Gnaanis" opinion! Moksh Marg Prakashak has all the answers if anyone takes
                                  the time to study it OBJECTIVELY.

                                  Firstly, I do not know which "Gnaani" you are referring to... Dr. A. N.
                                  Upadhyeji is a great scholar, and no slouch in the Gnaan department!

                                  Also, I have quoted Swami Kumar as well, who was a Jain monk living some time
                                  before the 13th century. His Kattigeyanuppekkha was translated from Prakrit
                                  into Sanskrit by Shubhchandra Acharya, another celebrated scholarly monk in
                                  medieval times.

                                  So when you say that A. N. Upadhye's opinion contradicts a Gyani's opinion,
                                  pray which Gyani are you referring to? Who is this gentleman? Was he senior to
                                  Swami Kumar, whose Kattigeyanuppekkha enjoys universal reverence in the Jain
                                  world?

                                  Besides, there is no such edict in Jainism that says that one must not
                                  contradict another man's point of view. We Jains ascribe omniscience only to
                                  the Kevalis, no one else! So unless you are referring to a Keval Gyani's
                                  opinion, there is absolutely no reason why I should not refute it.

                                  You wrote:

                                  "Find the flaws with my statements -
                                  i.e. where I have misunderstood a great shastra like Moksh Marg Prakashak,
                                  etc. and point out those flaws OBJECTIVELY."

                                  As far as this discussion is concerned, I am not bound to refer to the
                                  MokshMargPrakashak. This is discussion is not circumscribed by the limits of
                                  the MokshMargPrakashak. I am free to use any book I may feel like using. We
                                  were discussing the Nays, and particularly the concomitance of the two Nays,
                                  Nishchay and Vyavhar, hence your understanding of the MokshMargPrakashak is
                                  not germaine to the subject matter.

                                  You wrote:

                                  "So you can see that vyavhaar descriptions have a purpose but if taken
                                  literally can mislead."

                                  This is true for Nischay descriptions as well. Anything taken from the Ekantic
                                  point of view will be misleading. That is why we must try and understand
                                  things from both points of view. *

                                  That is why Swami Kumar wrote:

                                  Gatha 266

                                  "Te Saavekkha SuNaya Nirvekkha Te Vi DuNNaya Honti"

                                  {If these Nays are Saapeksh (studied in conjunction with one another) then
                                  they are Sunay (correct point of view) else if they are studied/ understood
                                  in isolation, they are Durnay (incorrect point of view)}.

                                  "Sayal-Vavhaar- Siddhi Su-Nayado Hodi NiyameNa"

                                  {Only by (Niyampurvak) necessarily using the Sunay can we understand all the
                                  the worldly transactions!}

                                  I trust I have made my point. Uttam Kshama!

                                  *There is a gatha by Kundakundacharya, Gatha 46 of the Samaysar. It is
                                  particularly relevant, but since I have posted it more than once to this
                                  list, I am not going to repeat it.

                                  Yours in Ahinsa,

                                  Manish Modi

                                  HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
                                  Booksellers and Publishers
                                  http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
                                  Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
                                  Telephone: 00 91 22 3826739
                                  Email: manish.modi@...

                                  DILON KE RISHTE (Urdu Poetry) by Prem Dhawan Rs. 100.00
                                  Ghazals that celebrate the warmth of love with a zest for life.
                                • Rajesh Shah
                                  Jai Jinendra This is not a debate - instead of addressing the points raised you are changing the subject. I will leave it at that as I have better things to do
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 25 2:00 PM
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                                    Jai Jinendra
                                     
                                    This is not a debate - instead of addressing the points raised you are changing the subject.
                                     
                                    I will leave it at that as I have better things to do than to have a debate about the debate - the discussion is over before it started as far as I am concerned.
                                     
                                    Jai Jinendra
                                    Rajesh
                                    www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: 25 May 2002 15:28
                                    Subject: Re: [JainList] Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar with Shuddh Nishchay.

                                    Dharmapremi Rajeshji,
                                    Jai Jinendra
                                  • Manish Modi
                                    Dharmapremi Rajeshji, Jai Jinendra I have not changed the subject. We were discussing the concomitance of the Nischay and Vyavhar Nay. That is what I wrote
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 27 2:00 AM
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                                      Dharmapremi Rajeshji,
                                      Jai Jinendra

                                      I have not changed the subject. We were discussing the concomitance of
                                      the Nischay and Vyavhar Nay. That is what I wrote about.

                                      Furthermore, I had asked you :

                                      "pray which Gyani are you referring to? Who is this gentleman? Was he senior
                                      to Swami Kumar, whose Kattigeyanuppekkha enjoys universal reverence in the
                                      Jain world?"

                                      Instead of replying to my question, you chose to slip out of the discussion
                                      high-handedly by saying that :

                                      "I will leave it at that as I have better things to do than to have a debate
                                      about the debate - the discussion is over before it started as far as I am
                                      concerned."

                                      Dear Sir, this is a forum for discussion. We all have our points of
                                      view. This forum exists so that we can share our points of view, thus
                                      bettering our own understanding of Jainism.

                                      It is upto you to share your views with us. It is purely voluntary. But if you
                                      are in a discussion with someone, please sign off in a dignified way. You
                                      may state your agreement / disagreements, and sign off.

                                      Instead, you are now getting out of it by saying that,

                                      "I will leave it at that as I have better things to do than to have a debate
                                      about the debate - the discussion is over before it started as far as I am
                                      concerned."

                                      This is not fair, and goes against the spirit of the group.

                                      By saying that you have "better things to do... " you are implying that the
                                      rest of us have nothing better to do!

                                      Not fair, Rajeshbhai!

                                      Uttam Kshama

                                      Yours in Ahinsa,

                                      Manish Modi

                                      HINDI GRANTH KARYALAY
                                      Booksellers and Publishers
                                      http://www.hindibooks.8m.com
                                      Hirabaug, C. P. Tank, Mumbai 400004, INDIA
                                      Telephone: 00 91 22 3826739
                                      Email: manish.modi@...



                                      On Sunday 26 May 2002 02:30, you wrote:
                                      > Jai Jinendra
                                      >
                                      > This is not a debate - instead of addressing the points raised you are
                                      > changing the subject.
                                      >
                                      > I will leave it at that as I have better things to do than to have a debate
                                      > about the debate - the discussion is over before it started as far as I am
                                      > concerned.
                                      >
                                      > Jai Jinendra
                                      > Rajesh
                                      > www.AtmaDharma.com - the Essence of Jainism
                                    • mehul_turakhia
                                      Dear friends, Jai jinendra My earlier mail (2635) on vyavahar and nishchay plane was written in general terms of the use of words. i.e. not very precise usage
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 30 4:55 AM
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                                        Dear friends,
                                        Jai jinendra

                                        My earlier mail (2635) on vyavahar and nishchay plane was written
                                        in general terms of the use of words. i.e. not very precise usage of
                                        naya was made/intended.

                                        A. Clarifications in use of word Vyvahar and Nischay plane.

                                        1. It is found in certain granths (Saman suttam, and if I am not
                                        mistaken Pravachan sarrodhhar etc., ) There are various types of
                                        divisions of samyaktva. One of the division comprises of Vyavahar
                                        samyaktva and nishchay samyaktva.

                                        2. These both the types of samyaktva will be examined from the
                                        two standpoints. One is from dev, guru and dharma . Second is from
                                        gyan, darshan and charitra.

                                        3. Vyavahar samyaktva means belief that Dev is Arihant, Guru is
                                        Panch maha vrat dhari nigranth muni. (muni with five maha vrat) and
                                        Dharma is kevali prarupit dharma. (this is bhaav of avashyak sutra ).

                                        4. Similarly in nischay samyaktva Dev is shudha atma of self
                                        (due to similar nature of soul in pure state ), Guru is gyan as gyan
                                        only guides oneself and Dharma is Svabhav dharma.

                                        5. Take other standpoint. Gyan is knowledge of tattvas, dravyas
                                        etc. Darshan is belief in it and charitra is action in the path
                                        shown (of samvar and nirjara) This is bhaav of uttara-dhya-yan sutra.

                                        6. In the nishchaya, gyan, darshan and charitra is knowledge of
                                        atma, belief in atma and action in atma ( to be antarmukhi i.e. with
                                        a view inside ones self. (bhaava of saman suttam.)) There is a old
                                        gatha to make this point on similar lines like, ae-go- me sasao
                                        appa ,naan damsan sanjuo, sesa me bahira bhaava, savve samjog lakhana
                                        i.e. only my soul is shashvat (everlasting) with virtues of gyan and
                                        darshan, all others are bahya-bhaava (outside bhaava ) caused due to
                                        samyog.

                                        7. The word used by me in earlier mail was only vyavahar and
                                        nishchay plane and no intention of naya was intended. The more
                                        appropriate word for "balance " should have been "samanvaya "( as
                                        found in saman suttam).

                                        8. It is mentioned that vyavahar is sadhan (tool) and nischay is
                                        sadhya (goal) in saman suttam. Even the last stanzas (286-287) of
                                        samanvaya chapter in saman suttam is a classic. Actually there are
                                        three stanza in uttaradhyayan sutra chapter 9. Out of that three
                                        stanza, two are reproduced in samman suttam above. The meaning of all
                                        three is given to have better perspective and it is as under. (It is
                                        a reply given by Nami Rajarshi turned muni to Indra. ) The muni
                                        makes/lives in a city of belief. The city is having five entrances
                                        of Prasam, samveg, nirved, anukampa and Astha. Tap and samvar are the
                                        aldrops to the entrance of the city. The fort of that city is kshma,
                                        mardav, arjav etc. 10 virtures. Three Gupti are three artificial
                                        valley around the fort to prevent the entry of ashubh karma . Muni
                                        takes the bow of Adventure. The handle of the bow is patience
                                        (symbolishing steadiness). The string of the bow is Samiti. The knot
                                        of the thread to the bow is the truth. Muni takes the arrow of Tapa
                                        (abhyantar and bahya ) and attacks the shackles of karma and wins the
                                        fight against them and ends the samsar and achieves the moksha. (One
                                        can see a very sophisticated Upamaa praman here) Thus even in
                                        formulating the chapter on samanvay, the samman sutra compilers, felt
                                        it important to look at various elements of samvar and nirjara(tapa)
                                        and thereby purity of vyavahar. Hence the statement of importance of
                                        shudhha vyavahar and shuddha nishchay.
                                        9. The permutations of shudhha and ashudhha given were mine .
                                        The point was that one should believe in both however should not
                                        leave vyavahar samyaktva in routine life. The combinations can be
                                        elaborated by oneself based on above two stand points ( dev, guru
                                        dharma and gyan, darshan charitra) and interpreted.
                                        10. Here is yet another perspective to the same permutations
                                        with shudhha and ashuddha (as per me)
                                        11. Shudha vyavahar and shudhha nishchay—eg. Gautam swami as a
                                        sadhu and Anand shravak as a shravak. At each sadhu/shravak position
                                        their action are appropriate to their gunasthan /or state of sadhna.
                                        What I mean here is they have right belief in jin darshan in nishchay
                                        plane , they follow right action in vyavahar plane and hence both
                                        are shuddha.
                                        12. Ashudha vyavahar and shudha nishchay eg. Krishna vasudev, he
                                        has right belief but in absence of vrat, his vyavahar (activity from
                                        agamic point in terms of sadhna ) is ashudhha due to inablility to
                                        advance further in sadhna. His vyavahar as a king may be shudhha, His
                                        vyavahar as fourth gunasthan may be shudhha due to loyalty to that
                                        gunasthan. This is what I meant by ashuddha.
                                        13. Shudhha vyavahar and ashudhha nishchay. If an abhavya takes
                                        diksha, follows all vrats, samiti gupti with utmost care, but lacks
                                        belief in jin darshan, it is above.(similar bhaav is found in saman
                                        suttam) This is what I meant. Similarly if a bhavya jiva also does so
                                        without belief, it is under this category in normal terms. In fact it
                                        is found in agams that most of jiva has gone to Nava greveyak dev lok
                                        infinite times due to such actions in the past, because the universe
                                        and jiva both are anaadi in nature .
                                        14. Ashudhha vyavahar and ashudhha nishchay Here the example is
                                        kal-saurik kasai (found in stories ) or similar jiva without belief
                                        and action.






                                        B. Here are some simple answers to points raised by hemantji as
                                        per my understanding.


                                        1. Naya means to look at any object with a single standpoint in
                                        ideal sense. Here opinions from other standpoints are suppressed and
                                        but only one is made prominent. There are seven naya as per agams. A
                                        few of them are vyavahar and a few nishchay naya. In fact each of the
                                        naya is minute than the previous one and thus each sukshma naya
                                        (micro naya ) tends to nischay relatively to the previous naya.
                                        2. Any two different naya will always contradict, because each
                                        will have a prominent standpoint. It may be noted that if statement
                                        from different naya is viewed from proper perspective, the
                                        contradiction vanishes.
                                        3. Any statement from a particular point of view is true only
                                        from that particulair point of view. And the same is false from all
                                        other naya. (this is my understanding but debatable) To illustrate, X
                                        stays in the lok, X stays in the tirchha lok, X stays in India, X
                                        stays in Maharashtra, X stays in Mumbai, X stays in his house, X
                                        stays in his body, X stays in his atma and X stays in the upyog of
                                        his Atma/soul. Here each statement is true with respect to itself and
                                        also false with respect to nearby statements. Here each one is
                                        minuter than previous.

                                        Here is one note of caution. Majority of contents of
                                        sadhna is with vyavahar. Many find it irrestitable to study vyavahar
                                        and nishchay and probe deeper in it. The entire philosophy of
                                        avashyak sutra is based on vyavahar. Ideal would be to understand
                                        vyavahar, to remove impurities in our vyavahar, to touch (shudhha
                                        vyavahar ) it, to follow it in small but firm steps with loyalty, to
                                        sail in it , to praise it, to purify it, to get engrossed in it and
                                        to follow it as per intentions (bhaav of samayik sutra ). This will
                                        also automatically improve our nishchay, and lead us near to our
                                        sadhya (moksha).


                                        This is my understanding. There is no intention to hurt anyone's
                                        feelings. Sincere michchami dukaddam, if anyone's feeling are hurt or
                                        anything is written against Jain agams.

                                        Mehul








                                        --- In jainlist@y..., "hemant mehta" <hbm@s...> wrote:
                                        > jai jinendra.
                                        >
                                        > i would request the knowledgeable members on the list to explain the
                                        > concepts of nischaya naya and vyavahar naya in utmost detail for
                                        the benefit
                                        > of all the members on this list because i think without a right
                                        > understanding of these 2 nayas its very diffiuclt to understand jain
                                        > scriptures and a beginner might end up in utter confusion.
                                        > especially would like the knowledgeable members to explain the
                                        following
                                        > with examples
                                        > 1 what do u exactly mean by nischaya naya and vyavahar naya
                                        > 2 what is the understanding one should have when the 2 nayas
                                        contradict
                                        > each other
                                        > 3 is it that whatever is said from nischaya naya is always true and
                                        whatever
                                        > is said from vyavahar naya is always false
                                      • hemant mehta
                                        jai jinendra some points i want to make after reading mehulji s mail... what i meant by contradiction was that the two statements (ie one in nischaya plane and
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 31 2:23 AM
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                                          jai jinendra

                                          some points i want to make after reading mehulji's mail...

                                          what i meant by contradiction was that the two statements (ie one in
                                          nischaya plane and one in vyavahar plane) are stating facts which are
                                          mutually exclusive.
                                          taking ur example..
                                          X stays in Mumbai
                                          X stays in Maharashtra
                                          here its fine in the sense that Mumbai is part of Maharashtra and hence X
                                          can be in the both the places at the same time and there is no real
                                          contradiction as such...both the statements have some truth in it...

                                          but if its said that
                                          X stays in Mumbai
                                          X stays in Ahmedabad
                                          there is a contradiction coz at the same time X can't be at both the
                                          places..here there can be truth only in one of the statements not both

                                          so what i want to know does vyavahar naya and nischaya naya both always
                                          contain some truth and applying both the nayas lead to a more complete
                                          picture...
                                          or is it that at times there is no truth at all in vyavahara naya..

                                          could the members on the list clarify the doubts with the below statement as
                                          an example
                                          " from nischaya naya soul is not the doer of karma but from vyavahar naya
                                          soul is the doer of karma"

                                          how is one supposed to interpret the above statement as there seems to be an
                                          apparent contradiction....

                                          regards,
                                          hemant mehta

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "mehul_turakhia" <mehul_turakhia@...>
                                          To: <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 5:25 PM
                                          Subject: [JainList] Re: Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar
                                          with Shuddh Nishchay.
                                        • RAJ KAMDAR
                                          Dear Friends, Jay Jinendra. I am relatively new member of Jain List and I have been immensely enjoying the dialogues going on regarding Nischay and Vyavahar
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 31 10:01 AM
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                                            Dear Friends,
                                             
                                            Jay Jinendra.
                                             
                                            I am relatively new member of Jain List and I have been immensely enjoying the dialogues going on regarding Nischay and Vyavahar Nay.
                                             
                                            First of all, I want to thank Mr. Amit Shah for introducing me to this group. I have already benefited so much by just reading and contemplating on various issues by learned members like Shri Rajeshbhai, Shri Manishbhai and Shri Mehulbhai and others.
                                             
                                            From my perspective, some time ago, I heard and read about Nischay and Vyavahar Nay in a very simple explanation, which answered my concerns about the seemingly contradicting views.
                                             
                                            As I understand, in our journey from where we are and where we ultimately desire to go[Moksh], we need both Vyavahar and Nischay Nay. Vyavahar [ belief in Dev, Guru and Dharma] guides us in say horizontal movement to reach Smayak Darshan. To go beyond, 4th Gunastahank...Nischay Nay [Gyan, Darshan and Charitra] helps us in this vertical movement to reach our ultimate destination.
                                             
                                            Perhaps, this is too simplistic view, but this does not contradict with any thing I have heard so far.  Or does it??
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:55 AM
                                            Subject: [JainList] Re: Ideally, Jain practice should combine Shuddh Vyavhar with Shuddh Nishchay.
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