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Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County

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  • Pat 11
    I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this. I wonder what
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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      I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this. 

      I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are? 

      Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google 
      "One person two genomes"


      On Sep 22, 2013, at 13:52, "Chris Roberts" <cmroberts03@...> wrote:

       

      In many cases that is correct Karl.  However, a full MtDNA sequence has the possibility to be more indicative of a close match.  Although I have numerous matches at the HRV I and II level, I have no known matches at the full sequence.  However, not everyone tests to that level.   Should I have a match at that level, the probability of a relationship in a genealogical time frame would be much higher.   I have read of folks using MtDNA to validate trees and some of finding relatives, but I have not found effective in my situation.  I am sure some would argue the point, but I concur with your assessment.
       
      Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
       
       
      Thank you for your response, Christine.
       
      With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
       
      Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
       

    • Kyle Davenport
      Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just contaminating the original genomes but
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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        Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just "contaminating" the original genomes but actively functioning and replicating along side them.???????????????????????????????????????????????? It is simply amazing that most mothers have neurons derived from their children.

        As a scientist, I can share that the real world often distorts and confounds our laboratory results.???????????????????????????????????????????????? The autosomal DNA test itself is a statistical conclusion - "which markers were bound to most often".???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Give me that Minority Report!

        Kyle


        On 09/22/2013 12:58 AM, Pat 11 wrote:
        ????????????????????????
        I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this.????????????????????????

        I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are?????????????????????????

        Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google????????????????????????
        "One person two genomes"


      • Roger Burbank
        Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to go back on his maternal side what test would he take?  I was told autosomal is closest
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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          Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to go back on his maternal side what test would he take?  I was told autosomal is closest your going to get.  Rog



          From: Kyle Davenport
          To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:40 AM
          Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County

           
          Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just "contaminating" the original genomes but actively functioning and replicating along side them.???????????????????????????????????????????????? It is simply amazing that most mothers have neurons derived from their children.

          As a scientist, I can share that the real world often distorts and confounds our laboratory results.???????????????????????????????????????????????? The autosomal DNA test itself is a statistical conclusion - "which markers were bound to most often".???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Give me that Minority Report!

          Kyle


          On 09/22/2013 12:58 AM, Pat 11 wrote:
          ????????????????????????
          I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this.????????????????????????

          I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are?????????????????????????

          Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google????????????????????????
          "One person two genomes"

          http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/science/dna-double-take.html?pagewanted=all&

          Pat Elleven



        • Kyle Davenport
          To answer specific genealogy questions, you have to be able to get your known relatives to get DNA tested. So what kind of test you want depends entirely on
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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            To answer specific genealogy questions, you have to be able to get your
            known relatives to get DNA tested. So what kind of test you want
            depends entirely on who agrees to get tested.

            I have not pursued that kind of inquiry , so instead, among a couple
            thousand of my autosomal DNA matches, I have been lucky to confirm
            common ancestors in about 15 cases. The common ancestors were 6 to 12
            generations back.

            Kyle

            On 09/22/2013 10:51 AM, Roger Burbank wrote:
            > Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to
            > go back on his maternal side what test would he take? I was told
            > autosomal is closest your going to get. Rog

          • waccess@bellsouth.net
            WOW! It ll be interesting to see what this might mean to genealogical DNA.
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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              WOW! It'll be interesting to see what this might mean to genealogical DNA.

            • waccess@bellsouth.net
              I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                >
                > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is
                > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple questions
                > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations back
                > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                > ) Mutations
                > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR1&2 test (Hyper-Variable
                > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could conceivably test a
                > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive. My
                > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even
                > have a match at the HVR1&2 level.
                >
                >
                > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > HI Karl,
                > >
                > > Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it
                > > depends on which area of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                > > faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                > > likely to be useful for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                > > mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups
                > > (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                >


              • Jewel Casey
                 enough is enough, go to the DNA testing site to find out     ... From: waccess@bellsouth.net To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                  enough is enough, go to the DNA testing site to find out
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 2:26 PM
                  Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA

                   

                  I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                  The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                  --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                  >
                  > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is
                  > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple questions
                  > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations back
                  > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                  > ) Mutations
                  > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test (Hyper-Variable
                  > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could conceivably test a
                  > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive. My
                  > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even
                  > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > HI Karl,
                  > >
                  > > Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it
                  > > depends on which area of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                  > > faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                  > > likely to be useful for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                  > > mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups
                  > > (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                  >


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                • waccess@bellsouth.net
                  You re right, Rog. I recommend the FTDNA Family Finder test because they have the largest database. I ve had family members who tested with ancestry and 23 and
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                    You're right, Rog. I recommend the FTDNA Family Finder test because they have the largest database. I've had family members who tested with ancestry and 23 and me and later chose to upload their DNA data to FTDNA because of the lack of matches from those original test sites.

                    Another option for tracking your mother's female line is, if you have a sister, a cousin, or an aunt, to have one of them to take the mtDNA test. I recommend the Full Sequence testings because you'll get more reliable matches. The goal is to test a female who directly descends from your mother; i.e., your sister, or a female who descends directly from your mother's mother; i.e., a first cousin or an aunt. For example, I had a female first cousin tested to track my father's mother. My first cousin's mother was my aunt and my daddy's sister. Hope that makes sense. The only way to test for your mother's father's direct line is to find an uncle or male first cousin who is a direct descendent of your mother's father.

                    The point is that the woman inherits mtDNA only from her mother and autosomal DNA from both her her father and mother. A man inherits y-DNA from his father, mtDNA from his mother, and autosomal from both. FTDNA has people you can talk to to help you decide what test to take. The website and contact number can be found here: http://www.familytreedna.com

                  • waccess@bellsouth.net
                    Hi Karl, This website has an interesting review of different DNA topics that are explained in layman s terms: http://dna-explained.com/2013/09/15/why-dna-test/
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                      Hi Karl, This website has an interesting review of different DNA topics that are explained in layman's terms: http://dna-explained.com/2013/09/15/why-dna-test/

                      If a female tests at the Full Sequence, then you have a chance of matching an actual relative sometime within the last five to six generations. If she only tests at the HVR1 and HVR2, she will get matches from further back, making it harder to figure out where she matches these people. Testing at the HVR1 level will probably produce a ton of matches, but you'll waste a lot of time trying to figure out how you're related because there will be so many from hundreds of years ago. Since women take their husbands' names, it's more difficult to figure out exactly where the match is. My recommendation is to have the test done at the Full Sequence level. Though you may not have a match immediately, more and more women are being tested, so that will help build the database. In the past, it seemed we were more interested in tracing our fathers' lines, so more men were tested, but that's changing.

                      By the way, are you trying to trace your mother's direct female line or your mother's father's line or both? That will make a difference in the tests you want to consider.



                      --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Plenge" wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you for your response, Christine.
                      >
                      > With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
                      >
                      > Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
                      >


                    • Chris Roberts
                      Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                        Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can provide hints to areas not previously explored, identify separate lines with the same surname, support our theories and identify errors in our paper trail.   I completely agree that YDNA and autosomal testing have a greater potential to assist with our research.
                         
                        Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:26 PM
                        Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA
                         
                         

                        I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                        The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                        --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                        >
                        > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation
                        rate as he is
                        > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple
                        questions
                        > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations
                        back
                        > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                        > )
                        Mutations
                        > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test
                        (Hyper-Variable
                        > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could
                        conceivably test a
                        > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that
                        is expensive. My
                        > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most
                        people do not even
                        > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                        >
                        >
                        > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > HI Karl,
                        > >
                        > > Yes, Karl estimates have
                        been made by the scientific community, but it
                        > > depends on which area
                        of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                        > > faster mutation rate
                        and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                        > > likely to be useful
                        for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                        > > mutates slower and is
                        the region used to determine haplogroups
                        > >
                        (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                        >


                      • Roger Burbank
                        Absolutely correct, just another tool. When they match, its a great feeling.  Rog From: Chris Roberts To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                          Absolutely correct, just another tool. When they match, its a great feeling.  Rog


                          From: Chris Roberts
                          To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 3:19 PM
                          Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA

                           
                          Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can provide hints to areas not previously explored, identify separate lines with the same surname, support our theories and identify errors in our paper trail.   I completely agree that YDNA and autosomal testing have a greater potential to assist with our research.
                           
                          Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:26 PM
                          Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA
                           
                           
                          I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                          The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                          --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                          >
                          > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation
                          rate as he is
                          > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple
                          questions
                          > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations
                          back
                          > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                          > )
                          Mutations
                          > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test
                          (Hyper-Variable
                          > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could
                          conceivably test a
                          > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that
                          is expensive. My
                          > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most
                          people do not even
                          > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                          >
                          >
                          > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > HI Karl,
                          > >
                          > > Yes, Karl estimates have
                          been made by the scientific community, but it
                          > > depends on which area
                          of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                          > > faster mutation rate
                          and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                          > > likely to be useful
                          for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                          > > mutates slower and is
                          the region used to determine haplogroups
                          > >
                          (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                          >




                        • D Bratton
                          I am U5 began in the levant to scoltland then America � Diana On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Kyle Davenport wrote: � I suspect
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 24, 2013
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                            I am U5 began in the levant to scoltland then America
                            Diana


                            On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Kyle Davenport <kdavenpo@...> wrote:

                            I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is to the utility of the mtDNA tests.�� The answer is a couple questions down from the one Christine links to.� (6. How many generations back does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?) � Mutations happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR1&2 test (Hyper-Variable Regions) that FamilyTreeDNAoffers.���� You could conceivably test a genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive.�� My experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even have a match at the HVR1&2 level.


                            On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:

                            HI Karl,
                            Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria.� The control region has a faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more likely to be useful for genealogical purposes.� The coding region mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.)�� ...

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