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Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County

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  • waccess@bellsouth.net
    Hi Jerry, You may have Cherokee blood, but if you ve taken a DNA test and it doesn t show, there may be a reason. If you took the y-DNA test and the Cherokee
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 19, 2013
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      Hi Jerry, You may have Cherokee blood, but if you've taken a DNA test and it doesn't show, there may be a reason. If you took the y-DNA test and the Cherokee ancestor was female, which is probably where the Cherokee blood came from, then it won't show. You'll need to find a direct female descendent (following only the female line from the original Cherokee maiden) to test her mtDNA. We had to do this in our family. Interestingly, there was a test done on a small number of known Cherokee descendents awhile back. There was no indication of NA DNA. The thoughts were that the Cherokee blood had become so diluted with white blood that it didn't show. Another theory was that the Cherokees came in through the East Coast and possibly were Vikings or other Europeans that came over hundreds of years before the English came. This could explain not only the lack of NA DNA, but also the reason so many Cherokees have blue-eyed genes. Of course, that could come from the Scottish and Irish DNA that came later too. Anyway the point is you could have Cherokee ancestors, and the DNA wouldn't show it.

      --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Triplett <jrytrplt@...> wrote:
      >
      > The subject of Cherokee blood remaining in Jackson County is of considerable interest to me. This post is not intended to start a war of words but rather to seek information.
      >
      > As a child, I was told that I had Cherokee blood. Also that many (most?) people that had been in Jackson County for decades did. A few years ago, I started looking for that blood and the ancestors from which it came. After a good bit of effort, I have concluded that I'm probably lily white; no NA blood. And I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I'm just like most of the other people in Jackson Co, no NA blood. I have so far been able to convince myself that there are families in Jackson than can be track their ancestry back to Cherokees. But that most of the marrying of full-bloods involved a white man and a Cherokee woman and took place before about 1775. Much of it was driven by Indian Traders from primarily South Carolina during the mid 1700's. The Colony of SC decided that it needed to regulate the Indian trade (in 1753?) and establish set rates of exchange because it was already coming apart and hatred was beginning to show.
      >
      > Return J Meigs was appointed Indian Agent in 1801 and remained in that position until his death in 1823. One of his jobs was to protect the Cherokees from "Intruders" and to issue "passports" to visit Indian Territory. All of this is completely documented. Because of his responsibilites, Cherokees that felt grieved would write to him (have someone write) with their grievances. One such letter is from a Cherokee that had a farm on the River between today's Bridgeport and the state line. It must have been late Spring or early Summer becaause the crops were in the ground and doing well. Two brothers named Green (I think) appeared at the farm and told the Cherokee "leave or we will kill". The Cherokee left. Another incident occurred in Doran's Cove. Whites were throwing rocks at a Cherokee family cabin. One rock came through a door and struck the man in the face while he was sitting at the dinner table. He left and went to Chickasaw territory in Mississippi. The wife later left. By 1811 during Meigs tenure as Indian Agent, some 2,00 families had left this area.
      >
      > Why am I saying this? By the early 1800's the "marrying" was basically over and "hatred prevailed". At some point, the Cherokees passed laws that forbade whites inhereiting from Cherokees.
      >
      > I'm convinced that original Cherokee blood remains in Jackson but not much. Below is a part of a history of the Keys family. Most of the Keys went to Arkansas and Oklahoma. But some are buried in DeKalb Co. So I know some remained. The Riley family also left town!
      >
      > "GU-LU-STI-YU ( A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married an English trader and translator, SAMUEL RILEY. Sam Riley married two of Doublehead's daughters, thus securing the family fortune. He seized most of Chief Doublehead's personal property after his murder in 1807. Riley was known as the "White Patron" of Gideon Blackburn's School. Although he is reported to have fathered five children by Ni-go-di-ge-yu and eleven by Gu-lu-sti-yu, it is quite possible that he falsely claimed two wives in order to ensure his entitlements to Doublehead's fortune. On April 28, 1819, Riley filed a suit for his entitlements, about fifteen days before he succumb to an illness. He is assumed to have been Doublehead's son in law solely on the basis of his last will and testament, which was accepted by the Supreme Court of the Cherokee Nation on October 25, 1825, as recorded by John Martin. Sam Riley and Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu raised their children as white in Roane Co. Tennessee, near Fort Loudon.
      > The Daughter of Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu and Samuel Riley:
      > 6. MARY "POLLY" RILEY (A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married SAMUEL KEYS II... Son of Riley's partner, SAMUEL KEYS. It was thought Samuel Keys was from England or Northern Ireland and settled in Maryland. At some point he moved with his sons to Indian Country, in what is now Tennessee where he partnered up with Sam Riley. Three Riley sisters married three Keys brothers. Polly married Samuel Keys II, Elizabeth Riley married Isaac Keys and Sallie Riley married William Keys.
      > Taking advantage of the McMinn treaty of 1817, the three brothers built a steamboat by tying logs together and powered it by an engine they built themselves. On this boat they took their families down the Tennessee River to lay claim to land in Indian Territory in the right of their wives who were half Cherokee. They tied up near Mud Creek in Old Fabius, Jackson Co., Alabama and each family staked their reservation of 640 acres. The area is now known as Roach's Cove." Note - This is not my work.
      >
      > I think it is also interesting to note the amount of Cherokee blood in some very well known Cherokees. John Ross was 1/8 and Alexander McCoy (principal Chief at New Echota) was 1/16. These were principal figures in the early 1800's but yet their Cherokee blood came from generations earlier.
      >
      > To me, another factor to consider is the effectiveness of the United States Army and General Winfield Scott during the Removal. I'm convinced that the US Army was very effective. In large part because the whites wanted the Cherokee lands. If a white family tattled on their NA neighbors and the neighbors were removed at the point of a bayonet, then maybe they could take their land and possessions. A lose / win situation.
      >
      > Now, having said all of that, I have a hobby of looking for Cherokee blood. When I'm told about a possible connection, I, over time, try to follow that lead. Of particular interest in today's world is DNA testing. I know little if any specifics, but I read that you can test for NA blood. Anyone have any in Jackson have test results that they would share?
      >
      > I'm just having fun, not trying to start a war!
      >
      > And, Clay, I am aware of the Gullatts.
      >
      > Thanks for reading. I'm looking forward to responses.
      >
      > Jerry in Chattanooga
      >
    • Patricia Elleven
      I am interested in Samuel Riley. My gg-grandmother was Riley by way of Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri and finally heeding Stephen F. Austin s call to Texas. She
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 19, 2013
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        I am interested in Samuel Riley. My gg-grandmother was Riley by way of Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri and finally heeding Stephen F. Austin's call to Texas. She had nothing to do with Jackson Co., forgive me here - but she was part of a well documented group of Catholic settlers  who went forever west on the "Catholic Trail." Religious persecution paid a large part. Indeed, Maryland was founded by Lord Baltimore as a Catholic haven.

        I wonder if there is any documentation on Samuel Riley's origins? I see that Samuel Keys, his partner, was reputedly from Maryland. I wonder if there is a connection with Samuel Riley and the Maryland Catholics? They appeared very early in many wilderness areas freshly opened to new settlement, where the modus operandi appears to be: sending out one or two young men to assess an area, then emigrating en masse. 

        Pat Elleven


        On Sep 19, 2013, at 11:02 PM, Jerry Triplett <jrytrplt@...> wrote:

         


        "GU-LU-STI-YU ( A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married an English trader and translator, SAMUEL RILEY. Sam Riley married two of Doublehead's daughters, thus securing the family fortune. He seized most of Chief Doublehead's personal property after his murder in 1807. Riley was known as the "White Patron" of Gideon Blackburn's School. Although he is reported to have fathered five children by Ni-go-di-ge-yu and eleven by Gu-lu-sti-yu, it is quite possible that he falsely claimed two wives in order to ensure his entitlements to Doublehead's fortune. On April 28, 1819, Riley filed a suit for his entitlements, about fifteen days before he succumb to an illness. He is assumed to have been Doublehead's son in law solely on the basis of his last will and testament, which was accepted by the Supreme Court of the Cherokee Nation on October 25, 1825, as recorded by John Martin. Sam Riley and Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu raised their children as white in Roane Co. Tennessee, near Fort Loudon.

        The Daughter of Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu and Samuel Riley:
        6. MARY "POLLY" RILEY (A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married SAMUEL KEYS II... Son of Riley's partner, SAMUEL KEYS. It was thought Samuel Keys was from England or Northern Ireland and settled in Maryland. At some point he moved with his sons to Indian Country, in what is now Tennessee where he partnered up with Sam Riley. Three Riley sisters married three Keys brothers. Polly married Samuel Keys II, Elizabeth Riley married Isaac Keys and Sallie Riley married William Keys.
        Taking advantage of the McMinn treaty of 1817, the three brothers built a steamboat by tying logs together and powered it by an engine they built themselves. On this boat they took their families down the Tennessee River to lay claim to land in Indian Territory in the right of their wives who were half Cherokee. They tied up near Mud Creek in Old Fabius, Jackson Co., Alabama and each family staked their reservation of 640 acres. The area is now known as Roach's Cove."  Note - This is not my work.

        Jerry in Chattanooga




      • Chris Roberts
        Great post! Thank you Jerry. I have contacted you off list with my thoughts. Christine Roberts From: Jerry Triplett Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:02
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 19, 2013
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          Great post!  Thank you Jerry.  I have contacted you off list with my thoughts. 
           
          Christine Roberts
           
           
          Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:02 AM
          Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
           
           

          The subject of Cherokee blood remaining in Jackson County is of considerable interest to me.  This post is not intended to start a war of words but rather to seek information.

          As a child, I was told that I had Cherokee blood.  Also that many (most?) people that had been in Jackson County for decades did.  A few years ago, I started looking for that blood and the ancestors from which it came.  After a good bit of effort, I have concluded that I'm probably lily white; no NA blood.  And I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I'm just like most of the other people in Jackson Co, no NA blood.  I have so far been able to convince myself that there are families in Jackson than can be track their ancestry back to Cherokees.  But that most of the marrying of full-bloods involved a white man and a Cherokee woman and took place before about 1775.  Much of it was driven by Indian Traders from primarily South Carolina during the mid 1700's.  The Colony of SC decided that it needed to regulate the Indian trade (in 1753?) and establish set rates of exchange because it was already coming apart and hatred was beginning to show.

          Return J Meigs was appointed Indian Agent in 1801 and remained in that position until his death in 1823.  One of his jobs was to protect the Cherokees from "Intruders" and to issue "passports" to visit Indian Territory.  All of this is completely documented.  Because of his responsibilites, Cherokees that felt grieved would write to him (have someone write) with their grievances.  One such letter is from a Cherokee that had a farm on the River between today's Bridgeport and the state line.  It must have been late Spring or early Summer becaause the crops were in the ground and doing well.  Two brothers named Green (I think) appeared at the farm and told the Cherokee "leave or we will kill".  The Cherokee left.  Another incident occurred in Doran's Cove.  Whites were throwing rocks at a Cherokee family cabin.  One rock came through a door and struck the man in the face while he was sitting at the dinner table.  He left and went to Chickasaw territory in Mississippi.  The wife later left.  By 1811 during Meigs tenure as Indian Agent, some 2,00 families had left this area.

          Why am I saying this?  By the early 1800's the "marrying" was basically over and "hatred prevailed".  At some point, the Cherokees passed laws that forbade whites inhereiting from Cherokees.

          I'm convinced that original Cherokee blood remains in Jackson but not much.  Below is a part of a history of the Keys family.  Most of the Keys went to Arkansas and Oklahoma.  But some are buried in DeKalb Co.  So I know some remained.  The Riley family also left town!

          "GU-LU-STI-YU ( A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married an English trader and translator, SAMUEL RILEY. Sam Riley married two of Doublehead's daughters, thus securing the family fortune. He seized most of Chief Doublehead's personal property after his murder in 1807. Riley was known as the "White Patron" of Gideon Blackburn's School. Although he is reported to have fathered five children by Ni-go-di-ge-yu and eleven by Gu-lu-sti-yu, it is quite possible that he falsely claimed two wives in order to ensure his entitlements to Doublehead's fortune. On April 28, 1819, Riley filed a suit for his entitlements, about fifteen days before he succumb to an illness. He is assumed to have been Doublehead's son in law solely on the basis of his last will and testament, which was accepted by the Supreme Court of the Cherokee Nation on October 25, 1825, as recorded by John Martin. Sam Riley and Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu raised their children as white in Roane Co. Tennessee, near Fort Loudon.

          The Daughter of Gu-Lu-Sti-Yu and Samuel Riley:
          6. MARY "POLLY" RILEY (A-Ni-Gi-Lo-Hi, Long Hair Clan) married SAMUEL KEYS II... Son of Riley's partner, SAMUEL KEYS. It was thought Samuel Keys was from England or Northern Ireland and settled in Maryland. At some point he moved with his sons to Indian Country, in what is now Tennessee where he partnered up with Sam Riley. Three Riley sisters married three Keys brothers. Polly married Samuel Keys II, Elizabeth Riley married Isaac Keys and Sallie Riley married William Keys.
          Taking advantage of the McMinn treaty of 1817, the three brothers built a steamboat by tying logs together and powered it by an engine they built themselves. On this boat they took their families down the Tennessee River to lay claim to land in Indian Territory in the right of their wives who were half Cherokee. They tied up near Mud Creek in Old Fabius, Jackson Co., Alabama and each family staked their reservation of 640 acres. The area is now known as Roach's Cove."  Note - This is not my work.

          I think it is also interesting to note the amount of Cherokee blood in some very well known Cherokees.  John Ross was 1/8 and Alexander McCoy (principal Chief at New Echota) was 1/16.  These were principal figures in the early 1800's but yet their Cherokee blood came from generations earlier.

          To me, another factor to consider is the effectiveness of the United States Army and General Winfield Scott during the Removal.  I'm convinced that the US Army was very effective.  In large part because the whites wanted the Cherokee lands.  If a white family tattled on their NA neighbors and the neighbors were removed at the point of a bayonet, then maybe they could take their land and possessions.  A lose / win situation.

          Now, having said all of that, I have a hobby of looking for Cherokee blood.  When I'm told about a possible connection, I, over time, try to follow that lead.  Of particular interest in today's world is DNA testing.  I know little if any specifics, but I read that you can test for NA blood.  Anyone have any in Jackson have test results that they would share?

          I'm just having fun, not trying to start a war!

          And, Clay, I am aware of the Gullatts.

          Thanks for reading.  I'm looking forward to responses.

          Jerry in Chattanooga


        • Karl Plenge
          Question for those who know more about DNA testing than I do (which would be almost anyone): As mtDNA is passed down generally unchanged from mother to
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 20, 2013
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            Question for those who know more about DNA testing than I do (which would be almost anyone):  As mtDNA is passed down generally unchanged from mother to daughter, then the only source of changes would be mutations.  Has anyone in the scientific community made an estimate of how many generations pass (on average) between mutations?
             
          • Chris Roberts
            HI Karl, Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria. The control region has a faster
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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              HI Karl,
               
              Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria.  The control region has a faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more likely to be useful for genealogical purposes.  The coding region mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.)    Scientific papers can differ on the average mutation rate, depending on the methodology used as well as other factors.  Since I am not smart enough to determine which rate might be correct, I have included a link to “The Mutation Rate in the Human mtDNA Control Region” which addresses the mutation rate of the control region.  Further, a search for MTDNA mutation rate will produce numerous results.
               
              Hopefully, others will have a better answer.
               
              Christine
               
               
               From: Karl Plenge
              Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 5:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
               
               

              Question for those who know more about DNA testing than I do (which would be almost anyone):  As mtDNA is passed down generally unchanged from mother to daughter, then the only source of changes would be mutations.  Has anyone in the scientific community made an estimate of how many generations pass (on average) between mutations?
               
            • Stephen
              South Carolina really had nothing to do with this area in relation to the Native Americans.  Any natives left here after the Trail of Tears would spend the
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                South Carolina really had nothing to do with this area in relation to the Native Americans.  Any natives left here after the Trail of Tears would spend the rest of their existence trying to be "white."  Because of persecution?  No.  They weren't really persecuted, but they had to pay higher taxes.  Its going to be hard proving NA ancestry in a family that has spent 150 years trying to escape NA heritage.  Most of the time they would be listed as "FPC" (Free Presons of Color) on the early 1800s US census.   

                "No man is justified in doing evil on the ground of expedience." Theodore Roosevelt
              • Roger Burbank
                Hello Anyone who is on ancestry.com-  I recommend taking the autosomal test.  It opened a lot of doors for me and found a lot of cousins.  Plus it will
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                  Hello'

                  Anyone who is on ancestry.com-  I recommend taking the autosomal test.  It opened a lot of doors for me and found a lot of cousins.  Plus it will give you your family origins/ethnicity.  It does not separate lines but if you have done the family research already? it will all fall in place.  Rog


                  From: Chris Roberts <cmroberts03@...>
                  To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 12:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County

                   
                  HI Karl,
                   
                  Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria.  The control region has a faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more likely to be useful for genealogical purposes.  The coding region mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.)    Scientific papers can differ on the average mutation rate, depending on the methodology used as well as other factors.  Since I am not smart enough to determine which rate might be correct, I have included a link to “The Mutation Rate in the Human mtDNA Control Region” which addresses the mutation rate of the control region.  Further, a search for MTDNA mutation rate will produce numerous results.
                   
                  Hopefully, others will have a better answer.
                   
                  Christine
                   
                   
                   From: Karl Plenge
                  Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 5:50 PM
                  Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
                   
                   
                  Question for those who know more about DNA testing than I do (which would be almost anyone):  As mtDNA is passed down generally unchanged from mother to daughter, then the only source of changes would be mutations.  Has anyone in the scientific community made an estimate of how many generations pass (on average) between mutations?
                   


                • Kyle Davenport
                  I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple questions down from the one
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                    I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is to the utility of the mtDNA tests.   The answer is a couple questions down from the one Christine links to.  (6. How many generations back does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?)   Mutations happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR1&2 test (Hyper-Variable Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers.     You could conceivably test a genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive.   My experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even have a match at the HVR1&2 level.


                    On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                     

                    HI Karl,
                     
                    Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria.  The control region has a faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more likely to be useful for genealogical purposes.  The coding region mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.)   ...
                  • Karl Plenge
                    Thank you for your response, Christine. With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                      Thank you for your response, Christine.
                       
                      With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
                       
                      Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
                       
                    • Chris Roberts
                      In many cases that is correct Karl. However, a full MtDNA sequence has the possibility to be more indicative of a close match. Although I have numerous
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                        In many cases that is correct Karl.  However, a full MtDNA sequence has the possibility to be more indicative of a close match.  Although I have numerous matches at the HRV I and II level, I have no known matches at the full sequence.  However, not everyone tests to that level.   Should I have a match at that level, the probability of a relationship in a genealogical time frame would be much higher.   I have read of folks using MtDNA to validate trees and some of finding relatives, but I have not found effective in my situation.  I am sure some would argue the point, but I concur with your assessment.
                         
                        Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:04 PM
                        Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
                         
                         
                        Thank you for your response, Christine.
                         
                        With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
                         
                        Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
                         
                      • Pat 11
                        I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this. I wonder what
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 21, 2013
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                          I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this. 

                          I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are? 

                          Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google 
                          "One person two genomes"


                          On Sep 22, 2013, at 13:52, "Chris Roberts" <cmroberts03@...> wrote:

                           

                          In many cases that is correct Karl.  However, a full MtDNA sequence has the possibility to be more indicative of a close match.  Although I have numerous matches at the HRV I and II level, I have no known matches at the full sequence.  However, not everyone tests to that level.   Should I have a match at that level, the probability of a relationship in a genealogical time frame would be much higher.   I have read of folks using MtDNA to validate trees and some of finding relatives, but I have not found effective in my situation.  I am sure some would argue the point, but I concur with your assessment.
                           
                          Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 4:04 PM
                          Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County
                           
                           
                          Thank you for your response, Christine.
                           
                          With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
                           
                          Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
                           

                        • Kyle Davenport
                          Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just contaminating the original genomes but
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                            Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just "contaminating" the original genomes but actively functioning and replicating along side them.???????????????????????????????????????????????? It is simply amazing that most mothers have neurons derived from their children.

                            As a scientist, I can share that the real world often distorts and confounds our laboratory results.???????????????????????????????????????????????? The autosomal DNA test itself is a statistical conclusion - "which markers were bound to most often".???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Give me that Minority Report!

                            Kyle


                            On 09/22/2013 12:58 AM, Pat 11 wrote:
                            ????????????????????????
                            I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this.????????????????????????

                            I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are?????????????????????????

                            Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google????????????????????????
                            "One person two genomes"


                          • Roger Burbank
                            Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to go back on his maternal side what test would he take?  I was told autosomal is closest
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                              Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to go back on his maternal side what test would he take?  I was told autosomal is closest your going to get.  Rog



                              From: Kyle Davenport
                              To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:40 AM
                              Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: Cherokee Blood in Jackson County

                               
                              Nice article.???????????????????????????????????????????????? So they are finding the foreign genomes are not just "contaminating" the original genomes but actively functioning and replicating along side them.???????????????????????????????????????????????? It is simply amazing that most mothers have neurons derived from their children.

                              As a scientist, I can share that the real world often distorts and confounds our laboratory results.???????????????????????????????????????????????? The autosomal DNA test itself is a statistical conclusion - "which markers were bound to most often".???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Give me that Minority Report!

                              Kyle


                              On 09/22/2013 12:58 AM, Pat 11 wrote:
                              ????????????????????????
                              I recently read a couple of articles that say that many (most?) individuals have more than one genome in them! I was totally gobsmacked by this.????????????????????????

                              I wonder what the implications for DNA testing are?????????????????????????

                              Here's a NYT article - if the link doesn't work google????????????????????????
                              "One person two genomes"

                              http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/science/dna-double-take.html?pagewanted=all&

                              Pat Elleven



                            • Kyle Davenport
                              To answer specific genealogy questions, you have to be able to get your known relatives to get DNA tested. So what kind of test you want depends entirely on
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                To answer specific genealogy questions, you have to be able to get your
                                known relatives to get DNA tested. So what kind of test you want
                                depends entirely on who agrees to get tested.

                                I have not pursued that kind of inquiry , so instead, among a couple
                                thousand of my autosomal DNA matches, I have been lucky to confirm
                                common ancestors in about 15 cases. The common ancestors were 6 to 12
                                generations back.

                                Kyle

                                On 09/22/2013 10:51 AM, Roger Burbank wrote:
                                > Kyle, as I am not a Scientist I will ask you this- if a male wants to
                                > go back on his maternal side what test would he take? I was told
                                > autosomal is closest your going to get. Rog

                              • waccess@bellsouth.net
                                WOW! It ll be interesting to see what this might mean to genealogical DNA.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                  WOW! It'll be interesting to see what this might mean to genealogical DNA.

                                • waccess@bellsouth.net
                                  I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                    I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                                    The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                                    --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is
                                    > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple questions
                                    > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations back
                                    > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                                    > ) Mutations
                                    > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR1&2 test (Hyper-Variable
                                    > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could conceivably test a
                                    > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive. My
                                    > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even
                                    > have a match at the HVR1&2 level.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > HI Karl,
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it
                                    > > depends on which area of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                                    > > faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                                    > > likely to be useful for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                                    > > mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups
                                    > > (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                                    >


                                  • Jewel Casey
                                     enough is enough, go to the DNA testing site to find out     ... From: waccess@bellsouth.net To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                      enough is enough, go to the DNA testing site to find out
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 2:26 PM
                                      Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA

                                       

                                      I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                                      The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                                      --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is
                                      > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple questions
                                      > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations back
                                      > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                                      > ) Mutations
                                      > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test (Hyper-Variable
                                      > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could conceivably test a
                                      > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive. My
                                      > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even
                                      > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > HI Karl,
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it
                                      > > depends on which area of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                                      > > faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                                      > > likely to be useful for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                                      > > mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups
                                      > > (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                                      >


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                                    • waccess@bellsouth.net
                                      You re right, Rog. I recommend the FTDNA Family Finder test because they have the largest database. I ve had family members who tested with ancestry and 23 and
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                        You're right, Rog. I recommend the FTDNA Family Finder test because they have the largest database. I've had family members who tested with ancestry and 23 and me and later chose to upload their DNA data to FTDNA because of the lack of matches from those original test sites.

                                        Another option for tracking your mother's female line is, if you have a sister, a cousin, or an aunt, to have one of them to take the mtDNA test. I recommend the Full Sequence testings because you'll get more reliable matches. The goal is to test a female who directly descends from your mother; i.e., your sister, or a female who descends directly from your mother's mother; i.e., a first cousin or an aunt. For example, I had a female first cousin tested to track my father's mother. My first cousin's mother was my aunt and my daddy's sister. Hope that makes sense. The only way to test for your mother's father's direct line is to find an uncle or male first cousin who is a direct descendent of your mother's father.

                                        The point is that the woman inherits mtDNA only from her mother and autosomal DNA from both her her father and mother. A man inherits y-DNA from his father, mtDNA from his mother, and autosomal from both. FTDNA has people you can talk to to help you decide what test to take. The website and contact number can be found here: http://www.familytreedna.com

                                      • waccess@bellsouth.net
                                        Hi Karl, This website has an interesting review of different DNA topics that are explained in layman s terms: http://dna-explained.com/2013/09/15/why-dna-test/
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                          Hi Karl, This website has an interesting review of different DNA topics that are explained in layman's terms: http://dna-explained.com/2013/09/15/why-dna-test/

                                          If a female tests at the Full Sequence, then you have a chance of matching an actual relative sometime within the last five to six generations. If she only tests at the HVR1 and HVR2, she will get matches from further back, making it harder to figure out where she matches these people. Testing at the HVR1 level will probably produce a ton of matches, but you'll waste a lot of time trying to figure out how you're related because there will be so many from hundreds of years ago. Since women take their husbands' names, it's more difficult to figure out exactly where the match is. My recommendation is to have the test done at the Full Sequence level. Though you may not have a match immediately, more and more women are being tested, so that will help build the database. In the past, it seemed we were more interested in tracing our fathers' lines, so more men were tested, but that's changing.

                                          By the way, are you trying to trace your mother's direct female line or your mother's father's line or both? That will make a difference in the tests you want to consider.



                                          --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Plenge" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thank you for your response, Christine.
                                          >
                                          > With such a slow rate of change, it seems like the only usefulness of mtDNA would be aggregating people into very large subgroups of the human population (such as the discussion on this board concerning Cherokee ancestry), since so many people would have the same mtDNA.
                                          >
                                          > Is this correct, and is there anything else I am missing regarding this?
                                          >


                                        • Chris Roberts
                                          Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                            Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can provide hints to areas not previously explored, identify separate lines with the same surname, support our theories and identify errors in our paper trail.   I completely agree that YDNA and autosomal testing have a greater potential to assist with our research.
                                             
                                            Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:26 PM
                                            Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA
                                             
                                             

                                            I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                                            The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                                            --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation
                                            rate as he is
                                            > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple
                                            questions
                                            > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations
                                            back
                                            > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                                            > )
                                            Mutations
                                            > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test
                                            (Hyper-Variable
                                            > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could
                                            conceivably test a
                                            > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that
                                            is expensive. My
                                            > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most
                                            people do not even
                                            > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > HI Karl,
                                            > >
                                            > > Yes, Karl estimates have
                                            been made by the scientific community, but it
                                            > > depends on which area
                                            of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                                            > > faster mutation rate
                                            and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                                            > > likely to be useful
                                            for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                                            > > mutates slower and is
                                            the region used to determine haplogroups
                                            > >
                                            (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                                            >


                                          • Roger Burbank
                                            Absolutely correct, just another tool. When they match, its a great feeling.  Rog From: Chris Roberts To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday,
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 22, 2013
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                                              Absolutely correct, just another tool. When they match, its a great feeling.  Rog


                                              From: Chris Roberts
                                              To: jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 3:19 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA

                                               
                                              Just my thoughts, DNA testing has some very specific uses, but it is never a substitute for the paper trail.  I view it as another tool in the arsenal. It can provide hints to areas not previously explored, identify separate lines with the same surname, support our theories and identify errors in our paper trail.   I completely agree that YDNA and autosomal testing have a greater potential to assist with our research.
                                               
                                              Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:26 PM
                                              Subject: [jacksongenealogy] Re: DNA
                                               
                                               
                                              I have had matches for the Full Sequence mtDNA testing, but in order to figure out who is who and what relation at what generation with mtDNA, we have to have documentation to match. With y-DNA tests, it seems to be easier. Perhaps that's because the last name is generally the same throughout the generations, but with women the name changes every generation. Of course, we do have two men who don't have the same last name, but do match very closely at the 111-marker test. We think this could be because of a legal or casual adoption, that two brothers took different surnames back when people were choosing their last names (900-1200 A.D.), or hanky panky. Based on documentation, we know that this happened before the late 1700s.

                                              The autosomal DNA testing is going to be similar to the mtDNA. It just doesn't go back as many generations. It will show matches, but then we have to figure out HOW we match through documentation. In addition, it will estimate the relationship, but that can be off by a generation or two. For example, my first cousin shows as a second cousin, and we KNOW that she's a first cousin.



                                              --- In jacksongenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Davenport wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation
                                              rate as he is
                                              > to the utility of the mtDNA tests. The answer is a couple
                                              questions
                                              > down from the one Christine links to. (6. How many generations
                                              back
                                              > does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?
                                              > )
                                              Mutations
                                              > happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR12 test
                                              (Hyper-Variable
                                              > Regions) that FamilyTreeDNA offers. You could
                                              conceivably test a
                                              > genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that
                                              is expensive. My
                                              > experience, and from what I have heard, is that most
                                              people do not even
                                              > have a match at the HVR12 level.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > HI Karl,
                                              > >
                                              > > Yes, Karl estimates have
                                              been made by the scientific community, but it
                                              > > depends on which area
                                              of the mitochondria. The control region has a
                                              > > faster mutation rate
                                              and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more
                                              > > likely to be useful
                                              for genealogical purposes. The coding region
                                              > > mutates slower and is
                                              the region used to determine haplogroups
                                              > >
                                              (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.) ...
                                              >




                                            • D Bratton
                                              I am U5 began in the levant to scoltland then America � Diana On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Kyle Davenport wrote: � I suspect
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 24, 2013
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                                                I am U5 began in the levant to scoltland then America
                                                Diana


                                                On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Kyle Davenport <kdavenpo@...> wrote:

                                                I suspect Karl is not so much interested in the mutation rate as he is to the utility of the mtDNA tests.�� The answer is a couple questions down from the one Christine links to.� (6. How many generations back does mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing trace?) � Mutations happen really, really slowly, even in the HVR1&2 test (Hyper-Variable Regions) that FamilyTreeDNAoffers.���� You could conceivably test a genealogy question with the Full mtDNA test, but that is expensive.�� My experience, and from what I have heard, is that most people do not even have a match at the HVR1&2 level.


                                                On 09/21/2013 02:09 AM, Chris Roberts wrote:

                                                HI Karl,
                                                Yes, Karl estimates have been made by the scientific community, but it depends on which area of the mitochondria.� The control region has a faster mutation rate and reflects newer mutations, thus it is more likely to be useful for genealogical purposes.� The coding region mutates slower and is the region used to determine haplogroups (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=10#2137.)�� ...

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