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Insufficient baffling in fuel tank?

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  • tkeffer
    Recently, I ve been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42 stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially full. The problem is
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 5 1:43 PM
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      Recently, I've been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42
      stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially
      full. The problem is not sediment in the tank (I've thoroughly cleaned
      it).

      I've grown convinced that it's being caused by air getting churned
      into the fuel. There are two baffles in the tank, but they extend only
      part way across. Because the tank is relatively shallow, it's easy to
      imagine waves breaking (so to speak) around the fuel inlet, causing
      the inlet to become temporarily high and dry, or for the fuel to
      become foamy.

      I recognize that a nearly empty tank is going to be susceptible to
      this, but it has happened to me even with the tank half full (or half
      empty?). (That's true fuel level, not indicated by the nonlinear gauge.)

      I'm wondering if other J/40 or J/42 owners have experienced similar
      symptoms?

      -tk
    • tkeffer
      Recently, I ve been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42 stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially full. The problem is
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 5 1:43 PM
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        Recently, I've been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42
        stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially
        full. The problem is not sediment in the tank (I've thoroughly cleaned
        it).

        I've grown convinced that it's being caused by air getting churned
        into the fuel. There are two baffles in the tank, but they extend only
        part way across. Because the tank is relatively shallow, it's easy to
        imagine waves breaking (so to speak) around the fuel inlet, causing
        the inlet to become temporarily high and dry, or for the fuel to
        become foamy.

        I recognize that a nearly empty tank is going to be susceptible to
        this, but it has happened to me even with the tank half full (or half
        empty?). (That's true fuel level, not indicated by the nonlinear gauge.)

        I'm wondering if other J/40 or J/42 owners have experienced similar
        symptoms?

        -tk
      • McConnon, B.R.
        I have. Just replaced/fixed a loose valve today. Will see if that remedies the situation. From: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 5 2:33 PM
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          I have. Just replaced/fixed a loose valve today. Will see if that remedies the situation.

           

          From: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tkeffer
          Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:43 PM
          To: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [j4x-owners-group] Insufficient baffling in fuel tank?

           

          Recently, I've been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42
          stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially
          full. The problem is not sediment in the tank (I've thoroughly cleaned
          it).

          I've grown convinced that it's being caused by air getting churned
          into the fuel. There are two baffles in the tank, but they extend only
          part way across. Because the tank is relatively shallow, it's easy to
          imagine waves breaking (so to speak) around the fuel inlet, causing
          the inlet to become temporarily high and dry, or for the fuel to
          become foamy.

          I recognize that a nearly empty tank is going to be susceptible to
          this, but it has happened to me even with the tank half full (or half
          empty?). (That's true fuel level, not indicated by the nonlinear gauge.)

          I'm wondering if other J/40 or J/42 owners have experienced similar
          symptoms?

          -tk

        • Ivan C Getting
          Tom, As you know I just put a new aluminum fuel tank in my J/42, KITTIWAKE. I had the new tank fabricated by Coastline Equipment in Bellingham, WA, 360
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 5 2:52 PM
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            Tom,

            As you know I just put a new aluminum fuel tank in my J/42, KITTIWAKE.  I had the new tank fabricated by Coastline Equipment in Bellingham, WA, 360 734-8509, Tom.  At their recommendation I had a lateral baffle put all the way across the tank.  It is welded on all four surfaces with cutouts at the corners to allow the fuel and air to pass by it.  Working on the tank during installation I noticed that the top surface was much stiffer than that of the original tank.  I presume this implies a less substantial baffle in the original one.

            Since the new installation I have been down to 1/4 tank on the gage with no problems, but then I had no such problems with the original tank either, so we are not learning very much.  Seas were not very rough either.

            The pickup tube is in the forward, inboard corner of the tank, the lowest corner as it should be.  Have you checked to see if your pickup tube reaches nearly to the bottom corner of the tank?  Coastline Equipment also strongly recommended a drop tube to near the bottom of the tank on the port which accepts return fuel flow from the engine.  Absent this, the returning fuel can cause foaming in the tank as it drops into the fuel below.  Does your return line have a drop tube as well?

            I would expect the fuel gage to be non-linear due to the shape of the tank and the design of the gage.  The shallow tank has very little height, at the top, with parallel sides preserving the surface area as the fuel is consumed.  The gage has an angular motion.  Its output may be linear with angle.  If it is the whole system should exhibit massively increased sensitivity as the fuel level drops below the top few inches of the tank and the gage sensor arm approaches vertical.  I have studied my fuel gage at some length, both in filling the tank and in running the engine at fairly consistent speed (1800 rpm, ~6 kts).  Much to my surprise, I see no meaningful departure from linearity.  Below is a plot of the filling data, red squares, red Y-axis on right, blue X-axis on the bottom.  The cockpit gage is the original shipped with my boat in 2006 with a Teleflex, Inc. indicator.  I would be amazed to find that the nonlinearity of the gage just compensate for the geometry of the tank. They should add, but that is what the data seem to imply.

            Let us know what you find out.

            Ivan Getting
            KITTIWAKE
            J/42, no. 74



            tkeffer wrote:

            Recently, I've been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42
            stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially
            full. The problem is not sediment in the tank (I've thoroughly cleaned
            it).

            I've grown convinced that it's being caused by air getting churned
            into the fuel. There are two baffles in the tank, but they extend only
            part way across. Because the tank is relatively shallow, it's easy to
            imagine waves breaking (so to speak) around the fuel inlet, causing
            the inlet to become temporarily high and dry, or for the fuel to
            become foamy.

            I recognize that a nearly empty tank is going to be susceptible to
            this, but it has happened to me even with the tank half full (or half
            empty?). (That's true fuel level, not indicated by the nonlinear gauge.)

            I'm wondering if other J/40 or J/42 owners have experienced similar
            symptoms?

            -tk

          • tkeffer
            Hello, Ivan! I didn t have any problems with my tank either while I was in the Puget Sound region. The problems have all been offshore. For example, last week
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 5 3:21 PM
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              Hello, Ivan!

              I didn't have any problems with my tank either while I was in the
              Puget Sound region. The problems have all been offshore. For example,
              last week I brought the boat south from Barkley Sound to Astoria and
              had the engine cut out many times, including while crossing the
              Columbia River Bar (it was actually kind of fun sailing across the Bar
              to an unknown conclusion --- made us feel like Robert Gray!).

              My pickup tube does indeed extend to the bottom of the tank (or within
              1/8" or so), as does the return tube.

              I'm not prepared to go as far as to fabricate a whole new tank, but my
              plan is to epoxy in a small aluminum "weir" around the pickup tube,
              and drill it full of small holes. It should impound enough fuel to
              keep the engine going between rolls of the boat. I also plan on
              installing a 12v fuel pump at the tank, so that the lift pump on the
              engine doesn't have to pull a vacuum over a 2' vertical drop, a fuel
              filter, and about 10' of hose. Any bubbles should be under
              compression, rather than tension.

              Installing an air trap has also been suggested to me but, absent the
              12v pump, this only makes sense if you can find a spot lower than the
              lowest fuel level, and I don't think such a spot exists within a
              convenient distance of the tank. With the 12v pump and the weir, I
              don't think it will be necessary.

              Pretty amazing that tank geometry and fuel gauge nonlinearity
              compensate for each other! Perhaps the resistance coil on the
              Teleflex was wound with this in mind??

              Ivan, thanks for your thoughts! Are you still in the Broughtons?

              -tk (now back in Hood River)
            • Bernard Coyne
              Hi folks: I can happily report that I have not had the symptoms of the engine cutting out that some are talking about. We have owned the boat 7 years and have
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 5 6:16 PM
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                Hi folks:

                I can happily report that I have not had the symptoms of the engine cutting
                out that some are talking about. We have owned the boat 7 years and have
                sailed it offshore in the Newport to Bermuda race twice and the Marblehead
                to Halifax race 3 times. Some of those trips had some rough conditions and
                we had to run the engine to charge the batteries. I have also done a lot
                of coastal sailing and motoring off New England, sometimes with low fuel
                and I have never experienced the engine cutting out.

                I should tell you that I have a large dual Racor fuel filter system
                installed just behind the stairs and above the engine. Perhaps that
                isolates the engine from any disturbance in the fuel flow from the tank

                Interesting discussion!

                thx
                Bernie
                s/v Amigo VI hull #3



                Bernie Coyne, Market Manager, Rational Team Concert product
                IBM Rational software, coyneb@..., 781-789-0762
                Notes: Bernard Coyne/Lexington/IBM@IBMUS



                "tkeffer"
                <keffer@...
                > To
                Sent by: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
                j4x-owners-group@ cc
                yahoogroups.com
                Subject
                [j4x-owners-group] Re: Fuel tank &
                08/05/2008 06:21 gage
                PM


                Please respond to
                j4x-owners-group@
                yahoogroups.com











                Hello, Ivan!

                I didn't have any problems with my tank either while I was in the
                Puget Sound region. The problems have all been offshore. For example,
                last week I brought the boat south from Barkley Sound to Astoria and
                had the engine cut out many times, including while crossing the
                Columbia River Bar (it was actually kind of fun sailing across the Bar
                to an unknown conclusion --- made us feel like Robert Gray!).

                My pickup tube does indeed extend to the bottom of the tank (or within
                1/8" or so), as does the return tube.

                I'm not prepared to go as far as to fabricate a whole new tank, but my
                plan is to epoxy in a small aluminum "weir" around the pickup tube,
                and drill it full of small holes. It should impound enough fuel to
                keep the engine going between rolls of the boat. I also plan on
                installing a 12v fuel pump at the tank, so that the lift pump on the
                engine doesn't have to pull a vacuum over a 2' vertical drop, a fuel
                filter, and about 10' of hose. Any bubbles should be under
                compression, rather than tension.

                Installing an air trap has also been suggested to me but, absent the
                12v pump, this only makes sense if you can find a spot lower than the
                lowest fuel level, and I don't think such a spot exists within a
                convenient distance of the tank. With the 12v pump and the weir, I
                don't think it will be necessary.

                Pretty amazing that tank geometry and fuel gauge nonlinearity
                compensate for each other! Perhaps the resistance coil on the
                Teleflex was wound with this in mind??

                Ivan, thanks for your thoughts! Are you still in the Broughtons?

                -tk (now back in Hood River)
              • William Stellin
                We have never experienced any engine problems in 30,000 miles of ocean sailing with Jaywalker. Some of it as you can imagine has been under gale conditions in
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 6 6:07 AM
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                  We have never experienced any engine problems in 30,000 miles of ocean sailing with Jaywalker. Some of it as you can imagine has been under gale conditions in two crossing of the Atlantic and thousands of rough miles in the Med.  We have the standard tank under the aft cabin bunk with the standard wimpy Racor fuel filter.  We also have the optional second tank mounted on the port side under the locker with its own filter.  We regularly run the tanks down to about 5 gallons before refilling them.  I'd have to say, it is probably something beside the tanks and baffling.  We had the same problem years ago with a gasoline engine and it was sediment that go sucked up into the drop pipe which starved the engine when under full load which was usually in rough conditions.  Make sure the drop pipe has nothing stuck inside it and the end is free of burrs which can impede the flow if there is any sediment floating around.
                  Bill Stellin   Jaywalker




                  To: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
                  From: coyneb@...
                  Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:16:37 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [j4x-owners-group] Re: Fuel tank & gage

                  Hi folks:

                  I can happily report that I have not had the symptoms of the engine cutting
                  out that some are talking about. We have owned the boat 7 years and have
                  sailed it offshore in the Newport to Bermuda race twice and the Marblehead
                  to Halifax race 3 times. Some of those trips had some rough conditions and
                  we had to run the engine to charge the batteries. I have also done a lot
                  of coastal sailing and motoring off New England, sometimes with low fuel
                  and I have never experienced the engine cutting out.

                  I should tell you that I have a large dual Racor fuel filter system
                  installed just behind the stairs and above the engine. Perhaps that
                  isolates the engine from any disturbance in the fuel flow from the tank

                  Interesting discussion!

                  thx
                  Bernie
                  s/v Amigo VI hull #3

                  Bernie Coyne, Market Manager, Rational Team Concert product
                  IBM Rational software, coyneb@.... com, 781-789-0762
                  Notes: Bernard Coyne/Lexington/ IBM@IBMUS

                  "tkeffer"
                  <keffer@gorge. net
                  > To
                  Sent by: j4x-owners-group@ yahoogroups. com
                  j4x-owners-group@ cc
                  yahoogroups. com
                  Subject
                  [j4x-owners- group] Re: Fuel tank &
                  08/05/2008 06:21 gage
                  PM


                  Please respond to
                  j4x-owners-group@
                  yahoogroups. com



                  Hello, Ivan!

                  I didn't have any problems with my tank either while I was in the
                  Puget Sound region. The problems have all been offshore. For example,
                  last week I brought the boat south from Barkley Sound to Astoria and
                  had the engine cut out many times, including while crossing the
                  Columbia River Bar (it was actually kind of fun sailing across the Bar
                  to an unknown conclusion --- made us feel like Robert Gray!).

                  My pickup tube does indeed extend to the bottom of the tank (or within
                  1/8" or so), as does the return tube.

                  I'm not prepared to go as far as to fabricate a whole new tank, but my
                  plan is to epoxy in a small aluminum "weir" around the pickup tube,
                  and drill it full of small holes. It should impound enough fuel to
                  keep the engine going between rolls of the boat. I also plan on
                  installing a 12v fuel pump at the tank, so that the lift pump on the
                  engine doesn't have to pull a vacuum over a 2' vertical drop, a fuel
                  filter, and about 10' of hose. Any bubbles should be under
                  compression, rather than tension.

                  Installing an air trap has also been suggested to me but, absent the
                  12v pump, this only makes sense if you can find a spot lower than the
                  lowest fuel level, and I don't think such a spot exists within a
                  convenient distance of the tank. With the 12v pump and the weir, I
                  don't think it will be necessary.

                  Pretty amazing that tank geometry and fuel gauge nonlinearity
                  compensate for each other! Perhaps the resistance coil on the
                  Teleflex was wound with this in mind??

                  Ivan, thanks for your thoughts! Are you still in the Broughtons?

                  -tk (now back in Hood River)





                • William Stellin
                  In thinking about your problem, I wonder, do you have to bleed the engine after it cuts out. If you do, it is sucking air. If you don t it is being starved
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 6 4:58 PM
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                    In thinking about your problem, I wonder, do you have to bleed the engine after it cuts out. If you do, it is sucking air.  If you don't it is being starved for fuel.  I would think, if you don't have to bleed the engine, something else is causing the engine to quit.  Most likely it isn't getting enough fuel under full load when motoring.
                    Bill Stellin    Jaywalker






                    To: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
                    From: keffer@...
                    Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:43:17 +0000
                    Subject: [j4x-owners-group] Insufficient baffling in fuel tank?


                    Recently, I've been having some problems with the diesel in my J/42
                    stalling in rough seas, particularly when the tank is only partially
                    full. The problem is not sediment in the tank (I've thoroughly cleaned
                    it).

                    I've grown convinced that it's being caused by air getting churned
                    into the fuel. There are two baffles in the tank, but they extend only
                    part way across. Because the tank is relatively shallow, it's easy to
                    imagine waves breaking (so to speak) around the fuel inlet, causing
                    the inlet to become temporarily high and dry, or for the fuel to
                    become foamy.

                    I recognize that a nearly empty tank is going to be susceptible to
                    this, but it has happened to me even with the tank half full (or half
                    empty?). (That's true fuel level, not indicated by the nonlinear gauge.)

                    I'm wondering if other J/40 or J/42 owners have experienced similar
                    symptoms?

                    -tk


                  • tkeffer
                    ... I have not had to bleed the engine to get it restarted (hence my theory that fuel starvation is causing the problem). As a double check, today I attached a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 6 6:56 PM
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                      --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, William Stellin
                      <wstellin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In thinking about your problem, I wonder, do you have to bleed the
                      >engine after it cuts out. If you do, it is sucking air. If you don't
                      >it is being starved for fuel. I would think, if you don't have to
                      >bleed the engine, something else is causing the engine to quit. Most
                      >likely it isn't getting enough fuel under full load when motoring.
                      > Bill Stellin Jaywalker

                      I have not had to bleed the engine to get it restarted (hence my
                      theory that fuel starvation is causing the problem).

                      As a double check, today I attached a vacuum gauge to the fuel line
                      and used the manual primer on the fuel lift pump to pull a 10 psi
                      vacuum. It held the vacuum with no problem, despite wiggling hoses,
                      fittings, and everything else I could find. Clearly, this is not an
                      air leak problem.

                      As for insufficient baffling... well, I guess the good news is that
                      both JAYWALKER and AMIGO have no problems in heavy seaways so it can't
                      be that, but the bad news is that I'll have to look elsewhere for the
                      answer!

                      I thoroughly cleaned the tank in March (I had this problem last year),
                      but I suppose something got introduced during one of my refuellings
                      over the summer. I'll take a look again.

                      Another possibility is a bad fuel pump (or blocked screen in the pump?
                      Is there one?).

                      Thanks so much! Your answers were exactly what I was looking for to
                      put this "baffling problem" to rest!

                      -tk
                    • Robert Thuss
                      The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the fuel pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and would easily get blocked. A
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 7 6:49 AM
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                        The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the fuel
                        pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and would
                        easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit of an
                        angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked up and
                        filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small angle
                        off the end and it seemed to help.

                        Robert Thuss
                        Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                      • tkeffer
                        Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I ve checked it and it s clear, but I m suspecting there is a partial blockage somewhere along the way,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 7 7:48 AM
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                          Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it and
                          it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage somewhere
                          along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.

                          Thanks, Robert

                          -tk

                          --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss" <robert@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the fuel
                          > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and would
                          > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit of an
                          > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked up and
                          > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small angle
                          > off the end and it seemed to help.
                          >
                          > Robert Thuss
                          > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                          >
                        • newtmerrill
                          -One of my particular irritants! On FINESSE--Hull #20--I have had one side (port) reglassed, faired in with gel coat, rubber bumpers installed, at least six
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 8 7:19 AM
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                            -One of my particular irritants! On FINESSE--Hull #20--I have had one
                            side (port) reglassed, faired in with gel coat, rubber bumpers
                            installed, at least six times in 11 years--and we lost it again this
                            year in the Bermuda Race. Have tried in the past to bring this to J-
                            boats attention as a design/construction fault with no success. If
                            anyone has a good solution I'd love to know it. Thanks, newt Merrill

                            -- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "tkeffer" <keffer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it and
                            > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage somewhere
                            > along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.
                            >
                            > Thanks, Robert
                            >
                            > -tk
                            >
                            > --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss" <robert@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the
                            fuel
                            > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and
                            would
                            > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit
                            of an
                            > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked
                            up and
                            > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small
                            angle
                            > > off the end and it seemed to help.
                            > >
                            > > Robert Thuss
                            > > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                            > >
                            >
                          • William Stellin
                            Because of all the warnings about hatch/stop problems, I ve been very careful and not had any problems. One solutions is to take the hood off that covers the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 8 7:44 AM
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                              Because of all the warnings about hatch/stop problems, I've been very careful  and not had any problems.  One solutions is to take the hood off that covers the hatch and put a wire line on the forward end of the hatch and secure it to anything on the deck under the hood to keep the hatch from going any further than intended.  Another possible fix would be to install some sort of stop on the track under the hood.
                              Bill Stellin   Jaywalker




                              To: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
                              From: nmerr10001@...
                              Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:19:26 +0000
                              Subject: [j4x-owners-group] Re: Cabin Hatch Stops

                              -One of my particular irritants! On FINESSE--Hull #20--I have had one
                              side (port) reglassed, faired in with gel coat, rubber bumpers
                              installed, at least six times in 11 years--and we lost it again this
                              year in the Bermuda Race. Have tried in the past to bring this to J-
                              boats attention as a design/construction fault with no success. If
                              anyone has a good solution I'd love to know it. Thanks, newt Merrill

                              -- In j4x-owners-group@ yahoogroups. com, "tkeffer" <keffer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it and
                              > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage somewhere
                              > along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.
                              >
                              > Thanks, Robert
                              >
                              > -tk
                              >
                              > --- In j4x-owners-group@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Thuss" <robert@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the
                              fuel
                              > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and
                              would
                              > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit
                              of an
                              > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked
                              up and
                              > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small
                              angle
                              > > off the end and it seemed to help.
                              > >
                              > > Robert Thuss
                              > > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                              > >
                              >


                            • dc1reg
                              This summer I had a total blockage at the screen on the pickup tube (which killed the engine until I switched to the reserve tank). The boatyard service
                              Message 14 of 19 , Aug 29 5:04 AM
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                                This summer I had a total blockage at the screen on the pickup tube
                                (which killed the engine until I switched to the reserve tank).

                                The boatyard service manager told me its a mistake to install a screen
                                on the pickup tube since you want any junk to make it to the filter.
                                Based on my experience I'm thinking he's right.

                                Dick Greene

                                J42 #48 (Aug 2000)

                                -- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "tkeffer" <keffer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it and
                                > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage somewhere
                                > along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.
                                >
                                > Thanks, Robert
                                >
                                > -tk
                                >
                                > --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss" robert@
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the fuel
                                > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and would
                                > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit of
                                an
                                > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked up
                                and
                                > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small
                                angle
                                > > off the end and it seemed to help.
                                > >
                                > > Robert Thuss
                                > > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                                > >
                                >
                              • newtmerrill
                                Interesting---Is there a right or wrong regarding having a screen on the fuel pickup?? We encountered the clogged screen problem for the 1st time this year
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
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                                  Interesting---Is there a "right or wrong" regarding having a screen
                                  on the fuel pickup?? We encountered the clogged screen problem for
                                  the 1st time this year following the Bermuda Race only after
                                  replacing the fuel line and several other attempted solutions to keep
                                  engine from cutting out. I was advised to keep screen in place once
                                  cleaned, etc. Thanks, Newt Merrill-FINESSE Hull#20 (1997)
                                  --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "dc1reg" <dc1reg@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This summer I had a total blockage at the screen on the pickup tube
                                  > (which killed the engine until I switched to the reserve tank).
                                  >
                                  > The boatyard service manager told me its a mistake to install a
                                  screen
                                  > on the pickup tube since you want any junk to make it to the
                                  filter.
                                  > Based on my experience I'm thinking he's right.
                                  >
                                  > Dick Greene
                                  >
                                  > J42 #48 (Aug 2000)
                                  >
                                  > -- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "tkeffer" <keffer@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it
                                  and
                                  > > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage
                                  somewhere
                                  > > along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks, Robert
                                  > >
                                  > > -tk
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss" robert@
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the
                                  fuel
                                  > > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and
                                  would
                                  > > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit
                                  of
                                  > an
                                  > > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked
                                  up
                                  > and
                                  > > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small
                                  > angle
                                  > > > off the end and it seemed to help.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Robert Thuss
                                  > > > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bernard Coyne
                                  This spring I had a new tank made by RDS in Florida 850-584-6898. Not sure if it had a filter on the pickup tube but I didn t see one. One could call them
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 2, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    This spring I had a new tank made by RDS in Florida 850-584-6898. Not sure if it had a filter on the pickup tube but I didn't see one. One could call them and discuss.

                                    Bernie

                                    Bernie Coyne, Market Manager, Rational Team Concert product
                                    IBM Rational software,
                                    coyneb@..., 781-789-0762
                                    Notes: Bernard Coyne/Lexington/IBM@IBMUS


                                    Inactive hide details for "newtmerrill" ---09/02/2008 09:08:14 AM---Interesting---Is there a "right or wrong" regarding having "newtmerrill" ---09/02/2008 09:08:14 AM---Interesting---Is there a "right or wrong" regarding having a screen on the fuel pickup?? We encoun


                                    From:

                                    "newtmerrill" <nmerr10001@...>

                                    To:

                                    j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com

                                    Date:

                                    09/02/2008 09:08 AM

                                    Subject:

                                    [j4x-owners-group] Re: Insufficient baffling in fuel tank? And the screen on the pickup tube




                                    Interesting---Is there a "right or wrong" regarding having a screen
                                    on the fuel pickup?? We encountered the clogged screen problem for
                                    the 1st time this year following the Bermuda Race only after
                                    replacing the fuel line and several other attempted solutions to keep
                                    engine from cutting out. I was advised to keep screen in place once
                                    cleaned, etc. Thanks, Newt Merrill-FINESSE Hull#20 (1997)
                                    --- In
                                    j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "dc1reg" <dc1reg@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This summer I had a total blockage at the screen on the pickup tube
                                    > (which killed the engine until I switched to the reserve tank).
                                    >
                                    > The boatyard service manager told me its a mistake to install a
                                    screen
                                    > on the pickup tube since you want any junk to make it to the
                                    filter.
                                    > Based on my experience I'm thinking he's right.
                                    >
                                    > Dick Greene
                                    >
                                    > J42 #48 (Aug 2000)
                                    >
                                    > -- In
                                    j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "tkeffer" <keffer@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked it
                                    and
                                    > > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial blockage
                                    somewhere
                                    > > along the way, perhaps closer to the filter.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks, Robert
                                    > >
                                    > > -tk
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In
                                    j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss" robert@
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of the
                                    fuel
                                    > > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank and
                                    would
                                    > > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a bit
                                    of
                                    > an
                                    > > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get picked
                                    up
                                    > and
                                    > > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a small
                                    > angle
                                    > > > off the end and it seemed to help.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Robert Thuss
                                    > > > Jade USA 50777 (hull #19)
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >



                                  • rersk
                                    After I installed a vacuum gauge between the engine fuel pump and the Racor fuel filter, I noticed increasing vacuum suction after several hours of motoring.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 12, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      After I installed a vacuum gauge between the engine fuel pump and the
                                      Racor fuel filter, I noticed increasing vacuum suction after several
                                      hours of motoring. Activating my by-pass Racor filter, I saw no
                                      change in vacuum and concluded there was another obstruction in the
                                      fuel system between the pick-up and the gauge. I switched the fuel
                                      return hose to the pick-up fitting on the tank, and the fuel intake
                                      hose to the return fitting on the tank and...problem solved, no
                                      excessive vacuum. Later I removed and cleaned the entire pick-up
                                      hose and fitting on the tank - no sign of dirt or obstruction.
                                      Replaced the hoses on their proper tank fittings and the problem re-
                                      occured. Next I'll try removing the screen on the pick-up hose and
                                      angling the cut end of the hose where it makes contact with the tank
                                      bottom. It is interesting that the return hose also has a screen but
                                      showed no excessive vacuum. I also have a 30 gal. port tank and it
                                      has never shown excessive vacuum on the fuel intake line.

                                      Reed Erskine s/v Cayenne hull #65








                                      --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Coyne <coyneb@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This spring I had a new tank made by RDS in Florida 850-584-6898.
                                      Not sure
                                      > if it had a filter on the pickup tube but I didn't see one. One
                                      could call
                                      > them and discuss.
                                      >
                                      > Bernie
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Bernie Coyne, Market Manager, Rational Team Concert product
                                      > IBM Rational software, coyneb@..., 781-789-0762
                                      > Notes: Bernard Coyne/Lexington/IBM@IBMUS
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      > From: "newtmerrill"
                                      <nmerr10001@...>

                                      >

                                      > To: j4x-owners-
                                      group@yahoogroups.com

                                      >

                                      > Date: 09/02/2008 09:08
                                      AM

                                      >

                                      > Subject: [j4x-owners-group] Re: Insufficient baffling in fuel
                                      tank? And the screen on the pickup tube
                                      >

                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      > Interesting---Is there a "right or wrong" regarding having a
                                      screen
                                      > on the fuel pickup?? We encountered the clogged screen problem
                                      for
                                      > the 1st time this year following the Bermuda Race only
                                      after
                                      > replacing the fuel line and several other attempted solutions to
                                      keep
                                      > engine from cutting out. I was advised to keep screen in place
                                      once
                                      > cleaned, etc. Thanks, Newt Merrill-FINESSE Hull#20
                                      (1997)
                                      > --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "dc1reg" <dc1reg@>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >

                                      >
                                      >

                                      > > This summer I had a total blockage at the screen on the pickup
                                      tube
                                      > > (which killed the engine until I switched to the reserve
                                      tank).
                                      >
                                      >

                                      > > The boatyard service manager told me its a mistake to install
                                      a
                                      >
                                      screen

                                      > > on the pickup tube since you want any junk to make it to
                                      the
                                      >
                                      filter.

                                      > > Based on my experience I'm thinking he's
                                      right.
                                      >
                                      >

                                      > > Dick
                                      Greene

                                      >
                                      >

                                      > > J42 #48 (Aug
                                      2000)
                                      >
                                      >

                                      > > -- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "tkeffer" <keffer@>
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      >

                                      > > > Will do. My pickup tube has a screen at the end. I've checked
                                      it
                                      >
                                      and

                                      > > > it's clear, but I'm suspecting there is a partial
                                      blockage
                                      >
                                      somewhere

                                      > > > along the way, perhaps closer to the
                                      filter.
                                      > >
                                      >

                                      > > > Thanks,
                                      Robert

                                      > >
                                      >

                                      > > > -
                                      tk

                                      > >
                                      >

                                      > > > --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Thuss"
                                      robert@
                                      > > >
                                      wrote:

                                      > > >
                                      >

                                      > > > > The other thing you may want to check is the bottom end of
                                      the
                                      >
                                      fuel

                                      > > > > pickup. Mine was flat and close to the bottom of the tank
                                      and
                                      >
                                      would

                                      > > > > easily get blocked. A mechanic told me its better to have a
                                      bit
                                      >
                                      of

                                      > >
                                      an

                                      > > > > angle so that any junk in the tank (algae, etc) will get
                                      picked
                                      >
                                      up

                                      > >
                                      and

                                      > > > > filtered out rather than blocking the pickup. So we cut a
                                      small
                                      > >
                                      angle

                                      > > > > off the end and it seemed to
                                      help.
                                      > > >
                                      >

                                      > > > > Robert
                                      Thuss
                                      > > > > Jade USA 50777 (hull
                                      #19)
                                      > > >
                                      >

                                      > >
                                      >

                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • tkeffer
                                      (sorry for the null post that went out earlier. Seems to be a glitch with the Yahoo HTML editor. This time, I ll use the stock text editor) Reed s experiences
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 12, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        (sorry for the null post that went out earlier. Seems to be a glitch
                                        with the Yahoo HTML editor. This time, I'll use the stock text editor)

                                        Reed's experiences very closely mirrors mine, described at the start
                                        of this thread.

                                        I'm fairly convinced my problems were due to the pickup tube being
                                        blocked, similar to Dick Greene and Newt Merrill's experiences. (Of
                                        course, 3 months ago I was equally "convinced" the problem was
                                        insufficient baffling in the tank. :-))

                                        The tube has a screen on the bottom, which in my case was resting
                                        against the bottom of the tank. It's easy to imagine a bit of gunk
                                        gathering around the inlet and blocking it. So, I replaced the tube
                                        with a bit of PEX tubing with no screen, sized so the inlet is about
                                        1/2" above the bottom. We'll see on next year's trip back up the
                                        Washington coast whether this makes any difference. I also added a
                                        vacuum gauge (actually a nifty gauge from Racor
                                        [http://tinyurl.com/5ktoq7%5d that records max vacuum, so you don't have
                                        to be there to actually witness the reading).

                                        Another thing I've learned in talking to other owners and some diesel
                                        mechanics around here (Portland, Oregon area) is that some fuel can be
                                        quite dirty in this area. They recommend using a 10 micron primary
                                        filter, instead of the 2 I had been using. It won't block as quickly
                                        (leading to fuel starvation), but the 2 micron secondary filter will
                                        still catch the little stuff.

                                        Still unexplained is why my engine would cut out on the port tank as
                                        well, although not nearly as often.

                                        -Tom Keffer
                                        --- In j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com, "rersk" <rersk@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > After I installed a vacuum gauge between the engine fuel pump and
                                        the
                                        > Racor fuel filter, I noticed increasing vacuum suction after several
                                        > hours of motoring. Activating my by-pass Racor filter, I saw no
                                        > change in vacuum and concluded there was another obstruction in the
                                        > fuel system between the pick-up and the gauge. I switched the fuel
                                        > return hose to the pick-up fitting on the tank, and the fuel intake
                                        > hose to the return fitting on the tank and...problem solved, no
                                        > excessive vacuum. Later I removed and cleaned the entire pick-up
                                        > hose and fitting on the tank - no sign of dirt or obstruction.
                                        > Replaced the hoses on their proper tank fittings and the problem re-
                                        > occured. Next I'll try removing the screen on the pick-up hose and
                                        > angling the cut end of the hose where it makes contact with the tank
                                        > bottom. It is interesting that the return hose also has a screen
                                        but
                                        > showed no excessive vacuum. I also have a 30 gal. port tank and it
                                        > has never shown excessive vacuum on the fuel intake line.
                                        >
                                        > Reed Erskine s/v Cayenne hull #65
                                      • Richard Greene
                                        The vacuum gauge will be a great addition. I ll add one in the spring. Last year after my pickup tube problem I also replaced the stock Racor (R12) with an
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 14, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The vacuum gauge will be a great addition. I'll add one in the spring.
                                          Last year after my pickup tube problem I also replaced the stock Racor (R12) with an R20. Of course it had nothing to do with the problem of the pickup tube being clogged but I'm sure it has at least twice the filter capacity.
                                          As a futher update, in the fall I pulled the main tank to check for leaks and found it ok. But like others, I found a few odd screws and nuts under the tank that over time could have been a problem. Looking at the tank installation it's apparent that any hardware that is dropped near the tank will roll down to that low point below the tank. I realized this after it happened to a screw I dropped while working on the tank removal.
                                          Dick Greene
                                          Maine Sail
                                           Hull #48
                                           


                                          From: tkeffer <keffer@...>
                                          To: j4x-owners-group@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:24:41 PM
                                          Subject: [j4x-owners-group] Re: Insufficient baffling in fuel tank? And the screen on the pickup tube

                                          (sorry for the null post that went out earlier. Seems to be a glitch
                                          with the Yahoo HTML editor. This time, I'll use the stock text editor)

                                          Reed's experiences very closely mirrors mine, described at the start
                                          of this thread.

                                          I'm fairly convinced my problems were due to the pickup tube being
                                          blocked, similar to Dick Greene and Newt Merrill's experiences. (Of
                                          course, 3 months ago I was equally "convinced" the problem was
                                          insufficient baffling in the tank. :-))

                                          The tube has a screen on the bottom, which in my case was resting
                                          against the bottom of the tank. It's easy to imagine a bit of gunk
                                          gathering around the inlet and blocking it. So, I replaced the tube
                                          with a bit of PEX tubing with no screen, sized so the inlet is about
                                          1/2" above the bottom. We'll see on next year's trip back up the
                                          Washington coast whether this makes any difference. I also added a
                                          vacuum gauge (actually a nifty gauge from Racor
                                          [http://tinyurl. com/5ktoq7] that records max vacuum, so you don't have
                                          to be there to actually witness the reading).

                                          Another thing I've learned in talking to other owners and some diesel
                                          mechanics around here (Portland, Oregon area) is that some fuel can be
                                          quite dirty in this area. They recommend using a 10 micron primary
                                          filter, instead of the 2 I had been using. It won't block as quickly
                                          (leading to fuel starvation), but the 2 micron secondary filter will
                                          still catch the little stuff.

                                          Still unexplained is why my engine would cut out on the port tank as
                                          well, although not nearly as often.

                                          -Tom Keffer
                                          --- In j4x-owners-group@ yahoogroups. com, "rersk" <rersk@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > After I installed a vacuum gauge between the engine fuel pump and
                                          the
                                          > Racor fuel filter, I noticed increasing vacuum suction after several
                                          > hours of motoring. Activating my by-pass Racor filter, I saw no
                                          > change in vacuum and concluded there was another obstruction in the
                                          > fuel system between the pick-up and the gauge. I switched the fuel
                                          > return hose to the pick-up fitting on the tank, and the fuel intake
                                          > hose to the return fitting on the tank and...problem solved, no
                                          > excessive vacuum. Later I removed and cleaned the entire pick-up
                                          > hose and fitting on the tank - no sign of dirt or obstruction.
                                          > Replaced the hoses on their proper tank fittings and the problem re-
                                          > occured. Next I'll try removing the screen on the pick-up hose and
                                          > angling the cut end of the hose where it makes contact with the tank
                                          > bottom. It is interesting that
                                          the return hose also has a screen
                                          but
                                          > showed no excessive vacuum. I also have a 30 gal. port tank and it
                                          > has never shown excessive vacuum on the fuel intake line.
                                          >
                                          > Reed Erskine s/v Cayenne hull #65


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