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RE: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update

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  • Rob Rosenberger
    I don t keep stats on 14yr-old wannabee hackers like iDefense does, but I can offer this tactical definition: CYBER-WAR: one or more trivial hacks [attempted
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
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      I don't keep stats on 14yr-old wannabee hackers like iDefense does, but I
      can offer this tactical definition:

      "CYBER-WAR: one or more trivial hacks [attempted or successful] rationalized
      as a 'just cause' by a 14yr-old who joined his countrymen's war effort on a
      whim (after finishing the second shift at Taco Bell), with no fear of
      wartime reprisals for his actions, e.g. getting killed or maimed or taken
      prisoner, and for which he can gain valuable mainstream media exposure as a
      patriot; sometimes used as a precursor to run for public office."

      Rob Rosenberger, Vmyths.com editor
      Truth about computer virus myths & hoaxes
      http://www.Vmyths.com

      -----Original Message-----
      From:
      sentto-279987-786-976267573-junkmail=barnowl.com@...
      [mailto:sentto-279987-786-976267573-junkmail=barnowl.com@...
      .com]On Behalf Of Ozair
      Sent: Friday, 8 December 2000 3:26 AM
      To: iwar@egroups.com
      Subject: RE: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


      Everyone,

      Is anyone analyzing the frequency, type of attack, magnitude, motive, and
      the type of target behind so called information warfare attacks. I am still
      not willing to call these pranks as information warfare, had it been
      confirmed that these are well coordinated and are moving towards a definite
      objective then they would be rightly called so. But picking up stragglers
      and sites apparently of no value seems hardly worth the news on this group.

      Ozair
    • St. Clair, James
      We may be missing the forest from the trees. While website defacement may be kid s stuff and not meet whatever definition of Info War we use, there are
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        We may be missing the forest from the trees. While website defacement may be
        "kid's stuff" and not meet whatever definition of Info War we use, there are
        several important conceptual points, IMHO:

        1) The forces regard "cyberspace" now as an effective medium to conduct
        conflict.
        2) These websites are still physically hosted on webservers, some of which
        are third party and may be hosting non-affiliated services.
        3) These "games" are getting more sophisticated in concept, and it is
        warfare that truly prompts developing new weapons anyway.
        4) Increasing dependence on ISPs for application services, infrastructure
        management, and e-commerce means the same boxes vulnerable to web
        defacements or DDoS attacks also carries financial transactions - that means
        someone loses money.

        - Jim





        -----Original Message-----
        From: Fred Cohen [mailto:fc@...]
        Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 9:52 AM
        To: iwar@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


        Per the message sent by Ozair:

        > Everyone,

        > Is anyone analyzing the frequency, type of attack, magnitude, motive, and
        > the type of target behind so called information warfare attacks.

        You might want to read the roll-up information on the all.net web site to
        get more clarity on this. (http://all.net/ => Mid-East InfoWar)

        The motives have been declared - at least in the case of the
        Palestinians - through doctrine, through publicaitons that indicate it
        is essentially economic warfare, through claims of asymetric advantage
        in thiis venue, through published targeting informaiton, and through
        several publications indicative of intent. This has been declared by
        the Palestinian authority, so it is their official policy at some level.

        > I am still
        > not willing to call these pranks as information warfare, had it been
        > confirmed that these are well coordinated and are moving towards a
        definite
        > objective then they would be rightly called so.

        The question of whether it is information warfare or information
        terrorism seems, to me, to be moot. If you take the strict US-centric
        view that terrorist groups are those groups listed on the State
        Department's list and that any information operation practiced by those
        groups is terrorism, then this is information terrorism (on the
        Palestinian side). On the israeli side, it doe snot seem to be official
        government policy, but on the other hand, they don't seem to be trying
        to stop Israeli citizens from participating in it. On that side, it
        could be called information warfare, but the state link is not so clear.

        > But picking up stragglers
        > and sites apparently of no value seems hardly worth the news on this
        group.

        This is not what is hapenning in this case - at least that's not what
        the evidence seems to show.

        > Ozair

        FC
        --
        Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087
        fax:925-294-1225
        Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net - fc@... -
        tel/fax:925-454-0171
        Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New Haven
        This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to
        serve.
        PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html - Have a great day!!!


        ------------------
        http://all.net/
      • Ozair
        Good comments, but just one thing though. It seems to be lopsided against Palestinians, calling them terrorists on Electronic frontier, we have to remember
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
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          Good comments, but just one thing though. It seems to be lopsided against
          Palestinians, calling them terrorists on Electronic frontier, we have to
          remember that the internet is a place where a 14 year old kid has the same
          tools as 40 year man, and perhaps more free time and a lot more know-how,
          this means that tools and power is un-balanced. In a world outside the
          cyberspace we see a different story where 14 yr old kid is puny as compared
          to the 40 yr old. And if 40 yr old can over power the 14 yr old due to
          physical prowess and can destabilize him economically but in cyber space
          things are evened out.

          In a programme on BBC on this very same topic pointed out that the cyber
          attacks are of equal match and frequency in the ME war.

          Besides, we have to realize that Palestinians have very small (it may be
          right to call none) number of commercial sites while the Isrealees have
          many, making the susceptible to attacks. Therefore the number of hits on
          Israeli sites are many.


          These were my two bits,
          Ozair

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Fred Cohen [mailto:fc@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 7:52 PM
          To: iwar@egroups.com
          Subject: Re: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


          Per the message sent by Ozair:

          > Everyone,

          > Is anyone analyzing the frequency, type of attack, magnitude, motive, and
          > the type of target behind so called information warfare attacks.

          You might want to read the roll-up information on the all.net web site to
          get more clarity on this. (http://all.net/ => Mid-East InfoWar)

          The motives have been declared - at least in the case of the
          Palestinians - through doctrine, through publicaitons that indicate it
          is essentially economic warfare, through claims of asymetric advantage
          in thiis venue, through published targeting informaiton, and through
          several publications indicative of intent. This has been declared by
          the Palestinian authority, so it is their official policy at some level.

          > I am still
          > not willing to call these pranks as information warfare, had it been
          > confirmed that these are well coordinated and are moving towards a
          definite
          > objective then they would be rightly called so.

          The question of whether it is information warfare or information
          terrorism seems, to me, to be moot. If you take the strict US-centric
          view that terrorist groups are those groups listed on the State
          Department's list and that any information operation practiced by those
          groups is terrorism, then this is information terrorism (on the
          Palestinian side). On the israeli side, it doe snot seem to be official
          government policy, but on the other hand, they don't seem to be trying
          to stop Israeli citizens from participating in it. On that side, it
          could be called information warfare, but the state link is not so clear.

          > But picking up stragglers
          > and sites apparently of no value seems hardly worth the news on this
          group.

          This is not what is hapenning in this case - at least that's not what
          the evidence seems to show.

          > Ozair

          FC
          --
          Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087
          fax:925-294-1225
          Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net - fc@... -
          tel/fax:925-454-0171
          Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New Haven
          This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to
          serve.
          PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html - Have a great day!!!


          ------------------
          http://all.net/
        • Ozair
          Your points are well taken, the tools in cyber space already exist, the same IP protocol, it is the usage of these tool that makes the weapon, the important
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Your points are well taken, the tools in cyber space already exist, the same
            IP protocol, it is the usage of these tool that makes the weapon, the
            important part is that these tools are products of thought and do not
            require much material input.

            Also, currently there is a talk of ASPs, I am sure that when an ASP is
            brought down then the losses may be spread over businesses and not just
            localized to specific area. E.g, what will happen when a company that leases
            word processing package from an ASP will find that today no memo got
            written, no report got typed because the ASP was down and this means losses
            hitting all the subscribers of such services.

            It is just a thought.....

            Regards
            Ozair


            -----Original Message-----
            From: St. Clair, James [mailto:jstclair@...]
            Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:19 PM
            To: 'iwar@egroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


            We may be missing the forest from the trees. While website defacement may be
            "kid's stuff" and not meet whatever definition of Info War we use, there are
            several important conceptual points, IMHO:

            1) The forces regard "cyberspace" now as an effective medium to conduct
            conflict.
            2) These websites are still physically hosted on webservers, some of which
            are third party and may be hosting non-affiliated services.
            3) These "games" are getting more sophisticated in concept, and it is
            warfare that truly prompts developing new weapons anyway.
            4) Increasing dependence on ISPs for application services, infrastructure
            management, and e-commerce means the same boxes vulnerable to web
            defacements or DDoS attacks also carries financial transactions - that means
            someone loses money.

            - Jim





            -----Original Message-----
            From: Fred Cohen [mailto:fc@...]
            Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 9:52 AM
            To: iwar@egroups.com
            Subject: Re: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


            Per the message sent by Ozair:

            > Everyone,

            > Is anyone analyzing the frequency, type of attack, magnitude, motive, and
            > the type of target behind so called information warfare attacks.

            You might want to read the roll-up information on the all.net web site to
            get more clarity on this. (http://all.net/ => Mid-East InfoWar)

            The motives have been declared - at least in the case of the
            Palestinians - through doctrine, through publicaitons that indicate it
            is essentially economic warfare, through claims of asymetric advantage
            in thiis venue, through published targeting informaiton, and through
            several publications indicative of intent. This has been declared by
            the Palestinian authority, so it is their official policy at some level.

            > I am still
            > not willing to call these pranks as information warfare, had it been
            > confirmed that these are well coordinated and are moving towards a
            definite
            > objective then they would be rightly called so.

            The question of whether it is information warfare or information
            terrorism seems, to me, to be moot. If you take the strict US-centric
            view that terrorist groups are those groups listed on the State
            Department's list and that any information operation practiced by those
            groups is terrorism, then this is information terrorism (on the
            Palestinian side). On the israeli side, it doe snot seem to be official
            government policy, but on the other hand, they don't seem to be trying
            to stop Israeli citizens from participating in it. On that side, it
            could be called information warfare, but the state link is not so clear.

            > But picking up stragglers
            > and sites apparently of no value seems hardly worth the news on this
            group.

            This is not what is hapenning in this case - at least that's not what
            the evidence seems to show.

            > Ozair

            FC
            --
            Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087
            fax:925-294-1225
            Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net - fc@... -
            tel/fax:925-454-0171
            Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New Haven
            This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to
            serve.
            PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html - Have a great day!!!


            ------------------
            http://all.net/


            ------------------
            http://all.net/
          • Fred Cohen
            ... I don t think that the site takes that point of view - it only provides stories written about the issues by other parties and commentary on the overall
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              Per the message sent by Ozair:

              > Good comments, but just one thing though. It seems to be lopsided against
              > Palestinians, calling them terrorists on Electronic frontier, we have to
              > remember that the internet is a place where a 14 year old kid has the same
              > tools as 40 year man, and perhaps more free time and a lot more know-how,
              > this means that tools and power is un-balanced. In a world outside the
              > cyberspace we see a different story where 14 yr old kid is puny as compared
              > to the 40 yr old. And if 40 yr old can over power the 14 yr old due to
              > physical prowess and can destabilize him economically but in cyber space
              > things are evened out.

              I don't think that the site takes that point of view - it only provides
              stories written about the issues by other parties and commentary on the
              overall situation. It also contains copies of Palestinean viewpoints in
              larger volume than those of Israeli viewpoints. But the best thing you
              could do to present a different viewpoint would be to provide those
              views, which I will put on the site.

              > In a programme on BBC on this very same topic pointed out that the cyber
              > attacks are of equal match and frequency in the ME war.

              Excellent point.

              > Besides, we have to realize that Palestinians have very small (it may be
              > right to call none) number of commercial sites while the Isrealees have
              > many, making the susceptible to attacks. Therefore the number of hits on
              > Israeli sites are many.

              I think that in the conflict itself, the Palestinians are doing far more
              damage to the Israelis than the other way around - for exactly the resons
              you point out - when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.

              > These were my two bits,
              > Ozair

              I would welcome an article -or periodic feeds from you and others to add
              to the site.

              FC
              --
              Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087 fax:925-294-1225
              Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net - fc@... - tel/fax:925-454-0171
              Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New Haven
              This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to serve.
              PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html - Have a great day!!!
            • Ozair
              I did not say that this point of view was represented on the site, I was just commenting on the replies in your earlier mail. I would love to contribute to
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 8, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                I did not say that this point of view was represented on the site, I was
                just commenting on the replies in your earlier mail.

                I would love to contribute to articles on your website, however I am pressed
                for time due to work environments.

                In order to have a more meaningful contribution to the Information warfare.
                I suggest that you set up a formal forum for people who want to contribute
                articles to the site. This forum should be managed by a person who suggests
                direction or focus of articles to be published as part of a quarterly theme,
                something like a Magazine, only that contribution to this would be purely
                voluntary with free distribution. This will provide the contributors some
                target to write for.

                At least that is my view point.

                Ozair

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Fred Cohen [mailto:fc@...]
                Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 3:02 AM
                To: iwar@egroups.com
                Subject: Re: [iwar] The Middle East InfoWar Conflict - Update


                Per the message sent by Ozair:

                > Good comments, but just one thing though. It seems to be lopsided against
                > Palestinians, calling them terrorists on Electronic frontier, we have to
                > remember that the internet is a place where a 14 year old kid has the same
                > tools as 40 year man, and perhaps more free time and a lot more know-how,
                > this means that tools and power is un-balanced. In a world outside the
                > cyberspace we see a different story where 14 yr old kid is puny as
                compared
                > to the 40 yr old. And if 40 yr old can over power the 14 yr old due to
                > physical prowess and can destabilize him economically but in cyber space
                > things are evened out.

                I don't think that the site takes that point of view - it only provides
                stories written about the issues by other parties and commentary on the
                overall situation. It also contains copies of Palestinean viewpoints in
                larger volume than those of Israeli viewpoints. But the best thing you
                could do to present a different viewpoint would be to provide those
                views, which I will put on the site.

                > In a programme on BBC on this very same topic pointed out that the cyber
                > attacks are of equal match and frequency in the ME war.

                Excellent point.

                > Besides, we have to realize that Palestinians have very small (it may be
                > right to call none) number of commercial sites while the Isrealees have
                > many, making the susceptible to attacks. Therefore the number of hits on
                > Israeli sites are many.

                I think that in the conflict itself, the Palestinians are doing far more
                damage to the Israelis than the other way around - for exactly the resons
                you point out - when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.

                > These were my two bits,
                > Ozair

                I would welcome an article -or periodic feeds from you and others to add
                to the site.

                FC
                --
                Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087
                fax:925-294-1225
                Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net - fc@... -
                tel/fax:925-454-0171
                Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New Haven
                This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to
                serve.
                PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html - Have a great day!!!


                ------------------
                http://all.net/
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