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Re: Shoes, Hip abductors, Cycling?

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  • danschat1
    I m new to the group (unfortunately!). I ve had a similar experience as DrT. I trained for an Oct marathon, including a 20 miler, without significant pain.
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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      I'm new to the group (unfortunately!). I've had a similar experience
      as DrT. I trained for an Oct marathon, including a 20 miler, without
      significant pain. Sure, I had some discomfort due to fatigue but
      never pain like I felt at mile 13 of the marathon. I finished the
      marathon and then took a couple weeks off. I started running again
      but now found that around mile 5.5 my ITB (both legs) starts to
      hurt. I ran a 14 miler this past weekend and couldn't walk
      afterwards. I felt like my kids sliding down the steps on my rear!

      Anyway, I've seen a PT (a sports medicine PT who specializes in
      treating runners) for the past 30 days and her firm belief is my
      glutes are not participating in my run which causes undue stress on
      my hip flexors (which do hurt a bit) and on my knees. She's given
      me tons of stretches and exercies to re-engage my 'lazy butt' but so
      far they've not helped much.

      I saw my family practice doc yesterday and he confirmed my ITBS and
      was able to feel a 'clicking' on the outside of each knee. He
      prescribed more PT, less running and rethinking my goals (which
      include another marathon in March). He did say, however, that if I
      can endure the pain, I can run. He didn't think I would cause any
      permanant damage but I would prolong the recovery. And, he's a
      marathon runner himself so he's comfortable with the rigors of
      distance running.

      After joining and reading this group, I ordered two pratt straps and
      cannot wait to get them. Can anyone tell me the best place to wear
      them? Above the knee, just below the knee cap, etc?

      Thanks for the great dialogue on ITBS. Three days ago I was
      considering giving up running and now I'm thinking there's a (slight)
      chance I may still run this March marathon.

      Dan


      --- In itbs@yahoogroups.com, "DrT, aka George Themelis" <drt-3d@a...>
      wrote:
      > > My shoes are Asics Gel-Nimbus VI. I dont know
      > > anything about running or the shoes. I had no
      > > idea it could be this complicated.
      >
      > I have the same shoes (one of my pairs now...)
      >
      > It does not have to be very complicated... Here is my
      > experience: I have been running for 4 years. The
      > first year I ran on a pair of worn out tennis shoes
      > and lost 50 lbs of weight... without any problem.
      >
      > After that, I started buying running shoes but only
      > what's on sale. I had no idea what type of shoe
      > was best for me and I did not really care because I
      > did not have any injury or problems for these 4 years.
      > So I was running happily with whatever shoe I had
      > on, and putting a lot of miles on each pair.
      >
      > This year I trained for a marathon, did 20 miles
      > and several long distances without a problem.
      > But got the ITBS after my marathon in October.
      >
      > Then I started reading about shoes and it turns out
      > that I was wearing the wrong type of shoe for my foot
      > (I had motion control shoes while I need cushioned
      > shoes). Not only that but also the pair I had on
      > in the marathon was quite worn out.
      >
      > People like to use the term "overuse injury" for ITBS.
      > It is usually when you put a lot of miles in, that this
      > shows up. But there must be some other factor too....
      > In my case it was a combination of 3 things.....
      > 1) too many miles (going from a 20 mile easy
      > run to 26.2 miles racing), 2) wearing the wrong type
      > of shoes which were also worn out, 3) possible muscle
      > inflexibility (I have had a back injury that had
      > affected my left leg, which is where ITBS showed up).
      >
      > > I can race in the mountains on my Single Speed full
      > > rigid mountain bike and the only pain I get is in my
      > > lower back. I run 1 mile at 130 BPM and I have to shut
      > > down. How lame is that?
      >
      > It sucks but what's with the lower back pain? What
      > has helped me with my episode of back pain are
      > back *extension* exercises... I have found this book
      > by Robin McKenzie extremely useful:
      > http://home.att.net/~drt-3d/DrT/health/McKenzie.htm
      >
      > > Any way I got my Pattstraps today and they kick butt!!
      > > I put one on the left knee and ran for 60 minutes
      > > non-stop with just minor discomfort. I wouldnt have
      > > even paid any attention to the discomfort a month ago,
      > > but now.......so its was normal.
      >
      > Yes, that was my experience too. When I first tried it
      > I had discomfort at first but this did not increase
      > to the point of pain forcing me to stop... Eventually
      > even the discomfort disappeared (in one month).
      >
      > George Themelis
    • DrT, aka George Themelis
      I changed the title to make this more clear... The strap goes above the knee for ITBS. If you put it at the knee or sligthly below, you can get more pain. I
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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        I changed the title to make this more clear...

        The strap goes above the knee for ITBS. If you
        put it at the knee or sligthly below, you can
        get more pain.

        I put it just above the knee and I keep it quite
        tight (very tight at first, but looser now that
        I don't have any symptoms).

        Before I tried the pattstrap, and being very skeptical
        about how this works, I tried an elastic band at
        different parts of the leg and found out that it
        makes things worse if you put at the wrong place.

        Even a tight pair of shorts at the hip area can
        inrease the pressure and make things worse. So,
        the idea is to have no pressure anywhere else
        (wear loose clothes) except for just above the
        knee where you are trying to restrict the mobility
        of the IT band and stop it from rubbing at the knee.

        George
      • Jennifer H. Raffe
        This is a very curious posting for me... I am wondering if you can elaborate because I originally ordered the pattstraps because of all of the wonderful
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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          This is a very curious posting for me... I am wondering if you can elaborate because I originally ordered the pattstraps because of all of the wonderful endrosements of them from this group and found that whenever I tightened it there was an even stronger knife digging into the side of my knee...I understand biomechanically why this should be a viable solution for everybody....where exactly did your experiementing hurt your leg more?? Perhaps I wasn't wearing it correctly- I was wearing it as tight as possible right above the knee (maybe .5 inches).
          IS anybody else having any trouble or has figured out the trick??

          I received a cortisone shot 1.5 weeks ago and am going to try to run today or tomorrow- I will let you know if this is a miracle cure or not. It hurt terribly after receiving the shot. Also- my PT discovered that between my two hip bones (illium)- one was raised much higher than the other. He did a fancy "yanking" type exercise- and pulled very sharply on my left side (the bad side) to get my bone down. Apparently tight piriformis and glute muscles can contribute to this becoming a semi-permanent mechanical problem which causes more pull on the IT band and other muscles on the side where the hip bone is raised. Have somebody check your pelvis! I have been to the pt (now on my 2nd one) 19 times before this was mentioned. It makes sense to me....my left side feels much "looser" but still a small twinge in my knee- then again- I haven't run (for real) in about 3 months (anything over 5 miles or so) and haven't been able to get over 2 miles still without the reoccuring pain.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: DrT, aka George Themelis
          To: itbs@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:29 PM
          Subject: [itbs] Strap goes ABOVE the knee!


          I changed the title to make this more clear...

          The strap goes above the knee for ITBS. If you
          put it at the knee or sligthly below, you can
          get more pain.

          I put it just above the knee and I keep it quite
          tight (very tight at first, but looser now that
          I don't have any symptoms).

          Before I tried the pattstrap, and being very skeptical
          about how this works, I tried an elastic band at
          different parts of the leg and found out that it
          makes things worse if you put at the wrong place.

          Even a tight pair of shorts at the hip area can
          inrease the pressure and make things worse. So,
          the idea is to have no pressure anywhere else
          (wear loose clothes) except for just above the
          knee where you are trying to restrict the mobility
          of the IT band and stop it from rubbing at the knee.

          George



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        • camsavem
          Unfortunatly medicine is really not a science it is more of an art form. I had double vision for my entire life. It took me years to find a surgeon who knew
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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            Unfortunatly medicine is really not a science it is more of an art
            form.

            I had double vision for my entire life. It took me years to find a
            surgeon who knew how to fix it. Three op's later I have single
            vision. Even got Lasik to go lens free. Had I listened to the group
            of good doctors I would still be blind as a bat and miserable.

            Case in point; you are very likely to get a different opinion on what
            is causing your pain from EVERY doctor that you go to.

            Wouldn't it be great if you could say "I have some physical pain in
            my body, please tell me where I hurt and why".

            I dont think the cortisone will help and here is why.

            ITBS is not a knee injury (joint), it is a muscle/ligiment injury. It
            is cycling that caused my injury, but the running reveled it. It
            occured because I didnt stretch out my legs while putting daily
            stress on the muscles/ligiments. I am not sure exactly what cause the
            IT band to flare up, it could be muscle imbalance, bad shoes, one leg
            too short, who knows.

            The strap should work because it changes the anchor point of your IT
            band to keep it from rubbing against your knee which causes the
            swelling and the pain. The IT band connects your shin to your upper
            thigh (non scientific terms). If you use your fingers, you can
            actually feel where it connects to the outside of your knee, just
            below the main bulge of your knee cap.

            I would try repositioning it and different tensions. Start running
            slowly on a flat mill and at the first tinge of IT flare (it has a
            distinct feel) move it or tighten it a little. If it helps you will
            know right away.

            Get a roller, get some serious deep massage, stretch and work all
            your muscle groups. Abductors, flexors, groin, glutes and hams.

            Finaly don't take any advice from me at face value. Talk to other
            runners, athletes etc. I only know what has worked for me so far and
            that could change tommorow.

            BOL

            DC
          • DrT, aka George Themelis
            Hi Jennifer, ... This addresses the concerns and skepticism I had *before* I tried the pattstrap. I was experimenting with a flexible band. When I put it at
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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              Hi Jennifer,

              > This is a very curious posting for me... I am wondering
              > if you can elaborate because I originally ordered the
              > pattstraps because of all of the wonderful endrosements
              > of them from this group and found that whenever I
              > tightened it there was an even stronger knife digging
              > into the side of my knee...I understand biomechanically
              > why this should be a viable solution for everybody....
              > where exactly did your experiementing hurt your leg more??
              > Perhaps I wasn't wearing it correctly- I was wearing it as
              > tight as possible right above the knee (maybe .5 inches).

              This addresses the concerns and skepticism I had *before*
              I tried the pattstrap. I was experimenting with a flexible
              band. When I put it at the thigh area, things got worse
              (compared to not using it). When I put it right at the knee
              things got immediately much worse (could not even walk!).

              So, I was skeptical about the pattstrap. Anything that
              puts pressure along the path of the IT band should make
              things worse, I thought, not better.

              Someone is this list gave an example of why the
              pattstrap should work by thinking of the IT band as a
              rubber band that can be anchored in place by the strap.
              The picture that I had in mind of the IT band is as a
              much stronger (less flexible) band and I thought that
              a strap above the knee would just push it closer to
              the knee, instead of pinning it down.

              I guess I only had to try it to see what happens. Well,
              I tried it and miraculously it worked. I was very
              surprised, believe me!

              Now, why would it work for me (and a few others in this
              list) and not work for you (and others)? You appear
              to be putting it in the same place as I do.

              Maybe your IT band is much tighter than mine and instead
              of being pinned in place, yours is still rubbing at the
              knee and with greater pressure when the strap is on.

              I don't know what to say... We have to accept that we
              all have different body structures and problems.

              I would only suggest to try it a bit higher and see
              if it works better. Try a few more spots... Maybe
              mark the point with a marker. Keep some notes
              regarding any differences you experience. If you
              give it a good try and still does not work, then
              we should accept that individual differences affect
              the effectiveness of the band.

              Good luck to you!

              George
            • ruby2zdy
              Good theory, but cortisone did stop ITBS in my left knee. Sorry. Ann ... From: camsavem To: itbs@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:06 PM
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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                Good theory, but cortisone did stop ITBS in my left knee. Sorry.

                Ann
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: camsavem
                To: itbs@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:06 PM
                Subject: [itbs] Re: Strap goes ABOVE the knee!




                Unfortunatly medicine is really not a science it is more of an art
                form.

                I had double vision for my entire life. It took me years to find a
                surgeon who knew how to fix it. Three op's later I have single
                vision. Even got Lasik to go lens free. Had I listened to the group
                of good doctors I would still be blind as a bat and miserable.

                Case in point; you are very likely to get a different opinion on what
                is causing your pain from EVERY doctor that you go to.

                Wouldn't it be great if you could say "I have some physical pain in
                my body, please tell me where I hurt and why".

                I dont think the cortisone will help and here is why.

                ITBS is not a knee injury (joint), it is a muscle/ligiment injury. It
                is cycling that caused my injury, but the running reveled it. It
                occured because I didnt stretch out my legs while putting daily
                stress on the muscles/ligiments. I am not sure exactly what cause the
                IT band to flare up, it could be muscle imbalance, bad shoes, one leg
                too short, who knows.

                The strap should work because it changes the anchor point of your IT
                band to keep it from rubbing against your knee which causes the
                swelling and the pain. The IT band connects your shin to your upper
                thigh (non scientific terms). If you use your fingers, you can
                actually feel where it connects to the outside of your knee, just
                below the main bulge of your knee cap.

                I would try repositioning it and different tensions. Start running
                slowly on a flat mill and at the first tinge of IT flare (it has a
                distinct feel) move it or tighten it a little. If it helps you will
                know right away.

                Get a roller, get some serious deep massage, stretch and work all
                your muscle groups. Abductors, flexors, groin, glutes and hams.

                Finaly don't take any advice from me at face value. Talk to other
                runners, athletes etc. I only know what has worked for me so far and
                that could change tommorow.

                BOL

                DC









                Yahoo! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rina
                ... Hi George, you have been running through out you ITBS injury and healed? I can t give up running, the mental discomfort of not running for a couple of
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 12, 2005
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                  --- In itbs@yahoogroups.com, "DrT, aka George Themelis" <drt-
                  3d@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > What I have found is that the injury is healing while
                  > I keep running with the strap on.
                  >

                  >
                  > George Themelis


                  Hi George,
                  you have been running through out you ITBS injury and healed? I
                  can't give up running, the mental discomfort of not running for a
                  couple of weeks almost gets me into a panic state and it is not
                  worth it. I have had my ITBS since June/July. I got better twice but
                  didn't take appropriate caution and got the damn thing back. I was
                  actually experience pain free runs about 4 weeks ago(with the strap
                  on) got all happy and ambitious ran a 30 mile week with 3 long runs
                  and now my knee sore is clicking again. May I ask you, how many
                  miles did you run, and how long were your long runs while you were
                  healing? Also, how long did it take for it to get to this state of
                  pain free running?
                  Thanks,

                  Rina
                • don caron
                  Nothing to be sorry about, I am glad it helped. It is not a theory, ITBS is not a knee injury. Your IT band does not even connect to your knee. ruby2zdy
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 13, 2005
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                    Nothing to be sorry about, I am glad it helped.

                    It is not a theory, ITBS is not a knee injury. Your IT band does not even connect to your knee.

                    ruby2zdy <ruby2zdy@...> wrote:
                    Good theory, but cortisone did stop ITBS in my left knee. Sorry.

                    Ann
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: camsavem
                    To: itbs@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:06 PM
                    Subject: [itbs] Re: Strap goes ABOVE the knee!




                    Unfortunatly medicine is really not a science it is more of an art
                    form.

                    I had double vision for my entire life. It took me years to find a
                    surgeon who knew how to fix it. Three op's later I have single
                    vision. Even got Lasik to go lens free. Had I listened to the group
                    of good doctors I would still be blind as a bat and miserable.

                    Case in point; you are very likely to get a different opinion on what
                    is causing your pain from EVERY doctor that you go to.

                    Wouldn't it be great if you could say "I have some physical pain in
                    my body, please tell me where I hurt and why".

                    I dont think the cortisone will help and here is why.

                    ITBS is not a knee injury (joint), it is a muscle/ligiment injury. It
                    is cycling that caused my injury, but the running reveled it. It
                    occured because I didnt stretch out my legs while putting daily
                    stress on the muscles/ligiments. I am not sure exactly what cause the
                    IT band to flare up, it could be muscle imbalance, bad shoes, one leg
                    too short, who knows.

                    The strap should work because it changes the anchor point of your IT
                    band to keep it from rubbing against your knee which causes the
                    swelling and the pain. The IT band connects your shin to your upper
                    thigh (non scientific terms). If you use your fingers, you can
                    actually feel where it connects to the outside of your knee, just
                    below the main bulge of your knee cap.

                    I would try repositioning it and different tensions. Start running
                    slowly on a flat mill and at the first tinge of IT flare (it has a
                    distinct feel) move it or tighten it a little. If it helps you will
                    know right away.

                    Get a roller, get some serious deep massage, stretch and work all
                    your muscle groups. Abductors, flexors, groin, glutes and hams.

                    Finaly don't take any advice from me at face value. Talk to other
                    runners, athletes etc. I only know what has worked for me so far and
                    that could change tommorow.

                    BOL

                    DC









                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  • zumbergc
                    First off, again. The pattstrap and similiar items don t necessarily work for everyone. Some have gotten lucky and it helps. Others not so lucky it doesn t
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 14, 2005
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                      First off, again. The pattstrap and similiar items don't
                      necessarily work for everyone. Some have gotten lucky and it helps.
                      Others not so lucky it doesn't help.

                      About your pelvis. I've had several people tell me that my pelvis
                      wasn't exactly level. Mostly from massage thereapist, and the last
                      horrible pt person I had. My regular doc liked to dismiss what the
                      pt was saying, that pt and chiros observe things that don't really
                      matter. I tend to ignore comments like that from my regular doc. I
                      suspect in that area, he doesn't really know what he's talking
                      about.
                      THe last pt however didn't do anything to help the hip/pelvis thing,
                      even though he noticed it. Finally went to a chiropractor, and
                      working with him getting things aligned, and exercises to stretch
                      and strengthen that area so things stay where they are suppose to.

                      You mentioned feeling the tight piroformis muscles and glute
                      muscles. I discovered when I was adjusted in the sacrum that
                      tightness lessened. Things were turned inappropriately and
                      contributing to things being tight. Of course it doesn't keep from
                      being tight. With my last pt guy being stupid, and having me stop
                      tons of exercises I was doing which help the glutes, etc, and not
                      replacing them with safer alternatives, really weakened these
                      muscles and I am working on getting them back to working better,
                      back to normal from before PT.

                      Some things I was doing to contribute to the tightness and the
                      issues going on in my glutes, hips, etc.
                      Sitting in a recliner, feet up, crossing my legs, not sitting up
                      straight, and slouching with you but farther away from the back, so
                      the bottom of the back is tucked under. (Pretty much slouching).

                      I got in the habbit of sitting in the recliner, knees hurt, keeping
                      them bent hurt. So, I sat in the recliner feet up, which puts lots
                      of stress on the low back, and it does contribute to moving your
                      pelvis stuff around.
                      Right now, I try my best not to cross my legs. If I do, I tend to
                      notice a pain in my glute, not sure exactly which muscle but it
                      stretches something. Now, if your butt is in great shape, super
                      strong, sitting with crossed legs may not be an issue. HOwever if
                      you are trying to recover from something, pulling it out of
                      alignment is going to aggrivate things, it does for me.

                      The book George mentioned about the back. THanks George for
                      mentioning it. I talked with my chiro and he said it was fine, to
                      do the exercises he recommends.
                      That book mentions something which made sense to me.
                      After your workouts, your warn out you get home. You muslces have
                      been working hard. What do most of us do, get on the couch, or
                      right when we are done, we slouch over. I noticed after water
                      workouts I was going into the dry sauna, sitting, and leaning over,
                      slouching. And it made a difference in how I felt later that
                      night. By correcting the bad posture, it helped some things going
                      on in my low back.

                      If your having the pain in your pelvis, I strongly advise you to pay
                      attention after your workouts, so your not crossing your legs, and
                      not slouching over, it changes where your hips/sacrum all sit.

                      Right now, I'm doing most of my sitting on a folding type chair, not
                      the couch. It has a decent coushin on the bottom, so it doesn't have
                      a metal bottom. My husband thinks its funny, but my back is
                      slowly feeling better, (of course along with my exercise, and
                      stretching).
                      When I sit on the couch, I only do it for short periods, and go sit
                      in a more appropriate place cause I generally start to feel it in my
                      low back.

                      I've found help from a chiro. Of course it will still be a while
                      before everything is healed, since the stupid pt ruined a lot of
                      muscle mass I had in my upper legs, low back, and glute areas.
                      Plus, I'd pulled or strained things because they were so weak.
                      The pain in my back is diminishing, of course I feel my knees more.
                      At least it was nice I didn't feel the knee pain for a while (i've
                      got CP) in addition to tight itband.

                      Good luck in your recovery, and keep searching for a doc, os, pt,
                      chiro to help you feel better,
                      Connie

                      >..where exactly did your experiementing hurt your leg more??
                      Perhaps I wasn't wearing it correctly- I was wearing it as tight as
                      possible right above the knee (maybe .5 inches).
                      > IS anybody else having any trouble or has figured out the trick??


                      > Also- my PT discovered that between my two hip bones (illium)- one
                      was raised much higher than the other. He did a fancy "yanking"
                      type exercise- and pulled very sharply on my left side (the bad
                      side) to get my bone down. Apparently tight piriformis and glute
                      muscles can contribute to this becoming a semi-permanent mechanical
                      problem which causes more pull on the IT band and other muscles on
                      the side where the hip bone is raised. Have somebody check your
                      pelvis! I have been to the pt (now on my 2nd one) 19 times before
                      this was mentioned. It makes sense to me....my left side feels
                      much "looser" but still a small twinge in my knee- then again- I
                      haven't run (for real) in about 3 months (anything over 5 miles or
                      so) and haven't been able to get over 2 miles still without the
                      reoccuring pain.been removed]
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